Doubling
- finnian4258
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Oct 29, 2022
Hello. I am a high-school euphonium player that plays trombone for jazz band. Our school has already started preparing for solo and ensemble. I am doing a euph solo, trombone trio, and trombone quartet. In the quartet I am playing the bass trombone part, goes from a low c to a c above the staff, which is a very attainable range for me. The only note I have issues with is the low c. I can get a good sound if I start on it, but going from a G or F to the C leads to a stuffy sound. Is there a way to work on this? I still have about 1 1/2 months to be ready for this.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Single valve bass or double? Sometimes the slide on a single is just a little short to make the low C, which is well beyond 7th position. If you are playing short slided you may be trying to lip the note in tune which can cause your bad tone.
Try just making a transition from G (4th position) to low C (in that long position) or from F (6th position) to that low C. Take it slow. Maybe tongue each note cleanly. Also do D to C, Eb to C, etc.
If you have a double valve bass in Bb/F/D then low C with 2 valves is right where G is on the open horn. A G to C transition just requires actuating both valves. Try doing it as a slur.
You should be able to get this in a month or so.
Try just making a transition from G (4th position) to low C (in that long position) or from F (6th position) to that low C. Take it slow. Maybe tongue each note cleanly. Also do D to C, Eb to C, etc.
If you have a double valve bass in Bb/F/D then low C with 2 valves is right where G is on the open horn. A G to C transition just requires actuating both valves. Try doing it as a slur.
You should be able to get this in a month or so.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Sounds more like you're talking about playing the bass part on a tenor. What mouthpieces are you playing on both the euph and trombone? I know I have to go a bit bigger to get a low C to respond adequately. It may help to practice those bass parts on both euph and trombone - the response is different but may help to get it in your chops.
- finnian4258
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Oct 29, 2022
It is a double trigger bass, a (I think) 503BO the school owns. The triggers and slides work well. I am swapping between warburton Gail Robertson for my marching and concert euph and a 1 1/2 g that came with the bass bone. The articulation of the warburton is very clear and the tone is clear until the about the D/C. The 1 1/2 g feels big and I can’t get crisp articulation on it. Should I keep practicing on the 1 1/2 g and the articulation with it or work on the low register with the warburton?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Probably spend more time working on getting focus on the 1-1/2G
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
Play the two mouthpieces for your peers in the quartet, and see which they prefer. Not just the C, but throughout the needed range.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Do you have this issue regardless of whether you play the low C with just the F valve or with both?
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="finnian4258"]I can get a good sound if I start on it, but going from a G or F to the C leads to a stuffy sound.[/quote]
Doesn't this sound like an embouchure problem in changing from one pitch to the other? If you can just play it straight out with "good sound", then you can play it with "good sound". It's something about the transition? Maybe it's "hearing the pitch in your head" in the one case but not so well in the other. But definitely use the 1 1/2 mouthpiece (if you can't find something a bit larger -- though the 1 1/2 should be fine for this).
(This is assuming that you really are seeing this difference while using the same valve/position to do the transition as you are in playing it ab initio with good sound. Otherwise, I might think about leaky or misaligned valve(s).)
Addendum: I have to say that switching back and forth between euph and bass trombone drives me nuts because of embouchure differences. I don't have the same problem switching between tuba and bass trombone or tuba and euph. :roll: I've finally come to think that this is because the euph and bass trombone play in the same registers and with sort-of-similar-almost-but-really-distinct mouthpieces and rims -- and also the sound you're producing in each is really different -- which makes them close enough but different enough to require more attention to the differences. Or something like that. :?
Doesn't this sound like an embouchure problem in changing from one pitch to the other? If you can just play it straight out with "good sound", then you can play it with "good sound". It's something about the transition? Maybe it's "hearing the pitch in your head" in the one case but not so well in the other. But definitely use the 1 1/2 mouthpiece (if you can't find something a bit larger -- though the 1 1/2 should be fine for this).
(This is assuming that you really are seeing this difference while using the same valve/position to do the transition as you are in playing it ab initio with good sound. Otherwise, I might think about leaky or misaligned valve(s).)
Addendum: I have to say that switching back and forth between euph and bass trombone drives me nuts because of embouchure differences. I don't have the same problem switching between tuba and bass trombone or tuba and euph. :roll: I've finally come to think that this is because the euph and bass trombone play in the same registers and with sort-of-similar-almost-but-really-distinct mouthpieces and rims -- and also the sound you're producing in each is really different -- which makes them close enough but different enough to require more attention to the differences. Or something like that. :?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I've always played my Euph with a 1½G size mouthpiece. Gives more of a "tenor tuba" vibe.
Note that my Euph is a Conn 19I (identical to the King 2280, just labeled Conn).
Note that my Euph is a Conn 19I (identical to the King 2280, just labeled Conn).
- finnian4258
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Oct 29, 2022
Thank you all. I think that practicing jumps on the 1 1/2 G seems to be the better option.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]I've always played my Euph with a 1½G size mouthpiece. Gives more of a "tenor tuba" vibe.[/quote]
I tried that (in fact a few 1.5G types -- specifically oriented towards a tenor tuba type of result) and wasn't happy with the sound quality. But I think it may depend heavily on what you're wanting the sound to be (and also the "feel"/feedback from the mp). Still, like I said before, a whole lot of people have used various of the Wick trombone mouthpieces -- though generally not larger than a 3. Also some Schilkes. I did have a 2NAL that wasn't too bad, but still seemed "tromboney" :lol: .
[quote="BGuttman"]Note that my Euph is a Conn 19I (identical to the King 2280, just labeled Conn).[/quote]
It may also be a difference related to compensating vs. non-compensating euphs or "British" vs. other (American? German?) varieties. Even with my usual DE euph mouthpiece (but with appropriate shank), my Amati oval euph still sounds like it's trying to be a trombone but not quite making it. :roll:
I tried that (in fact a few 1.5G types -- specifically oriented towards a tenor tuba type of result) and wasn't happy with the sound quality. But I think it may depend heavily on what you're wanting the sound to be (and also the "feel"/feedback from the mp). Still, like I said before, a whole lot of people have used various of the Wick trombone mouthpieces -- though generally not larger than a 3. Also some Schilkes. I did have a 2NAL that wasn't too bad, but still seemed "tromboney" :lol: .
[quote="BGuttman"]Note that my Euph is a Conn 19I (identical to the King 2280, just labeled Conn).[/quote]
It may also be a difference related to compensating vs. non-compensating euphs or "British" vs. other (American? German?) varieties. Even with my usual DE euph mouthpiece (but with appropriate shank), my Amati oval euph still sounds like it's trying to be a trombone but not quite making it. :roll: