Looking For a Bass
- EthanJohn
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Nov 30, 2023
Hello everyone, I am a high school trombonist who is looking to upgrade to bass trombone but I can’t seem to find any for a price I am happy with. I was hoping you guys could direct me towards a good intermediate bass trombone, I don’t want a poor quality one in case I continue professionally. What sort of bass trombones are the most accessible for a lower price?
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I'm curious as to why you think a bass trombone is an "upgrade" from your existing (tenor?) trombone. :idk:
A bass trombone isn't "better" - it's just larger and used for different purposes.
(Think tenor saxophone vs alto sax.)
A bass trombone isn't "better" - it's just larger and used for different purposes.
(Think tenor saxophone vs alto sax.)
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
For new, I've heard good things about JP Rath.
For used, the Conn 71/2/3s are often a good deal although variable in quality
If you continue professionally, you'll want to upgrade anyway as you learn more about your preferences.
For used, the Conn 71/2/3s are often a good deal although variable in quality
If you continue professionally, you'll want to upgrade anyway as you learn more about your preferences.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Have you considered a large-bore tenor trombone for a (more versatile, and possibly more practical) "upgrade?"
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
Single or double valve?
For a single, YBL-321/322/421.
Double…gonna take a bit to find something. I was able to pull a Bach 50b2 that only needs about 200 bucks worth of work for well under that price. I say it’ll take some patience as I was looking for that for over a year…
For a single, YBL-321/322/421.
Double…gonna take a bit to find something. I was able to pull a Bach 50b2 that only needs about 200 bucks worth of work for well under that price. I say it’ll take some patience as I was looking for that for over a year…
- EthanJohn
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Nov 30, 2023
I already have a large bore tenor, but the reason I consider a bass trombone an upgrade is because it is more specialized for my taste. I would definitely need a double valve but I don’t really care if it’s dependent
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
$1500 is very low for a quality double valve bass trombone.
I have a student with a JP Rath. It's heavy and a little clunky, but it plays pretty evenly and is serving him well for early college.
I have a student with a JP Rath. It's heavy and a little clunky, but it plays pretty evenly and is serving him well for early college.
- MaxPirone
- Posts: 624
- Joined: Mar 04, 2023
Holton 180 maybe you can found for 1500 or some cheaper 612,613 maybe Yamaha...
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="MaxPirone"]Holton 180 maybe you can found for 1500 or some cheaper 612,613 maybe Yamaha...[/quote]
A beat up used Holton 180 maybe. They are selling for more over here.
A beat up used Holton 180 maybe. They are selling for more over here.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]I have a student with a JP Rath. It's heavy and a little clunky, but it plays pretty evenly and is serving him well for early college.[/quote]
Isn't the JP232 a clone of the Yamaha YSL-613? If I were to "upgrade" my current cheesy Schiller $600 bass trombone, I think that is likely the way I'd go -- in terms of cost/performance. But I think I'd like to try one first.
Isn't the JP232 a clone of the Yamaha YSL-613? If I were to "upgrade" my current cheesy Schiller $600 bass trombone, I think that is likely the way I'd go -- in terms of cost/performance. But I think I'd like to try one first.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I sold a Yamaha 612Rii for about that budget earlier in the year. The bell rim was very slightly uneven and there were one or two minor bumps but nothing that affected playability. Valves and slide were very fast.
Keep up hope in the search!
The Holton 180 I replaced it with was more expensive and over the budget but not soooo much more.
Keep up hope in the search!
The Holton 180 I replaced it with was more expensive and over the budget but not soooo much more.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="226596" time="1701535436" user_id="102">
I have a student with a JP Rath. It's heavy and a little clunky, but it plays pretty evenly and is serving him well for early college.[/quote]
Isn't the JP232 a clone of the Yamaha YSL-613? If I were to "upgrade" my current cheesy Schiller $600 bass trombone, I think that is likely the way I'd go -- in terms of cost/performance. But I think I'd like to try one first.
</QUOTE>
Sort of, a few differences, and the build quality on the JP232 I tested was not amazing. I think they're a bit over $2k new, which is steep enough that most people should prefer being patient and looking for a well-kept used instrument.
The JPRath (JP333) is completely different and much better than the JP232 in pretty much every way. The price reflects that, of course, and it's no longer in the genre of "budget" horns like Schiller/Wessex/Mack.
I have a student with a JP Rath. It's heavy and a little clunky, but it plays pretty evenly and is serving him well for early college.[/quote]
Isn't the JP232 a clone of the Yamaha YSL-613? If I were to "upgrade" my current cheesy Schiller $600 bass trombone, I think that is likely the way I'd go -- in terms of cost/performance. But I think I'd like to try one first.
</QUOTE>
Sort of, a few differences, and the build quality on the JP232 I tested was not amazing. I think they're a bit over $2k new, which is steep enough that most people should prefer being patient and looking for a well-kept used instrument.
The JPRath (JP333) is completely different and much better than the JP232 in pretty much every way. The price reflects that, of course, and it's no longer in the genre of "budget" horns like Schiller/Wessex/Mack.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="spencercarran"]The JPRath (JP333) is completely different and much better than the JP232 in pretty much every way. The price reflects that, of course, and it's no longer in the genre of "budget" horns like Schiller/Wessex/Mack.[/quote]
Just out of curiousity, do you include in that the Wessex "Super Tenor, premier"
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/su ... ier-pbf555">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/supertenor-trombone-premier-pbf555</LINK_TEXT>?
Although I wonder if anyone has yet seen one of these.
Just out of curiousity, do you include in that the Wessex "Super Tenor, premier"
Although I wonder if anyone has yet seen one of these.
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
I've never seen that model in person so can't comment much about it.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]
Just out of curiousity, do you include in that the Wessex "Super Tenor, premier"
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/su ... ier-pbf555">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/supertenor-trombone-premier-pbf555</LINK_TEXT>?
Although I wonder if anyone has yet seen one of these.[/quote]
Yeah, I owned one of those. Bought it used and sold it. It was a little abused when I got it. It is set up like a small bass kind of. When they say "super tenor" to me means that you have to work a little harder to play it as a real tenor. It naturally gets a deeper sound. It was a nice enough horn, and the concept might lend itself to more resonance in the low range, but the way this instrument was put together didn't. In particular, the slide wasn't full length, so you had no chance of even getting a low C, where my 88h seems to have a bit extra slide, and can very nearly get a low C in tune without pulling the F slide.
If you wanted to get one of those Wessex Super Tenors and put a second valve on it, that would stand a chance of being usable, but as it comes, it was a little disappointing as a small bass.
Just out of curiousity, do you include in that the Wessex "Super Tenor, premier"
Although I wonder if anyone has yet seen one of these.[/quote]
Yeah, I owned one of those. Bought it used and sold it. It was a little abused when I got it. It is set up like a small bass kind of. When they say "super tenor" to me means that you have to work a little harder to play it as a real tenor. It naturally gets a deeper sound. It was a nice enough horn, and the concept might lend itself to more resonance in the low range, but the way this instrument was put together didn't. In particular, the slide wasn't full length, so you had no chance of even getting a low C, where my 88h seems to have a bit extra slide, and can very nearly get a low C in tune without pulling the F slide.
If you wanted to get one of those Wessex Super Tenors and put a second valve on it, that would stand a chance of being usable, but as it comes, it was a little disappointing as a small bass.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="ghmerrill"]Just out of curiousity, do you include in that the Wessex "Super Tenor, premier"
[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/su ... ier-pbf555">https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/supertenor-trombone-premier-pbf555</LINK_TEXT>?
Although I wonder if anyone has yet seen one of these.[/quote]
I briefly owned one of the Wessex "pro" basses that falls into the same rank... don't bother. Good design and some good components, ruined overall by some serious manufacturing errors. The Wessex Urbie is a good horn, but it's also a lot simpler to make.
Nothing to say about JPRath stuff, having never tried it, but I've been told by a couple of independent sources that FWIW it does not come from Jinbao (Wessex, Mack et al).
Although I wonder if anyone has yet seen one of these.[/quote]
I briefly owned one of the Wessex "pro" basses that falls into the same rank... don't bother. Good design and some good components, ruined overall by some serious manufacturing errors. The Wessex Urbie is a good horn, but it's also a lot simpler to make.
Nothing to say about JPRath stuff, having never tried it, but I've been told by a couple of independent sources that FWIW it does not come from Jinbao (Wessex, Mack et al).
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]Nothing to say about JPRath stuff, having never tried it, but I've been told by a couple of independent sources that FWIW it does not come from Jinbao (Wessex, Mack et al).[/quote]
I regard all claims about whether a particular instrument is or isn't made by Jinbao to be suspect. They are often of the form "I was told that ...," or "My understanding is ...," and then things of this sort are repeated across the web. I'm also pretty confident that most people who use the "Jinbao" name have no idea what it means or represents -- I know that I don't. It's easy enough to find claims on various forums (often on the same forum) that JP instruments "are also made at the Jin Bao factory" (TromboneChat, 2018) or that they are not.
It's been reported that Wessex had denied a number of times that its instruments are manufactured by Jinbao, but Jonathan Hodges has dodged the question of where his instruments are or were being made ([url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthrea ... post133761">https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread.php/18566-I-am-a-decent-amateur-and-just-bought-a-John-Packer-274-euphonium?p=133761#post133761</LINK_TEXT>). Instead, he has said unequivocally (2016) that "I can say with certainty that Wessex and JP are not the same and not made in the same factory." But even this doesn't mean much if "factory" means a specific location rather than a "company," or means a "company" that may be part of some larger "complex" or "conglomerate".
And you can see this sort of confusion/conflation on about any musical instrument web forum you like -- and the western sellers of "brands" of instruments remain quite careful in not adding any clarification. :-)
Instead of trying to trace the source or ancestory of a particular instrument (or line of instruments), it is probably best to view that instrument/line as it is sold by this specific company (John Packer, Wessex, Mack Brass, Schiller, Eastman, ... ... ...) and make your decisions based on the history and evaluations from that proximate source rather than attempting to involve some (possibly mythical) Chinese factory in your considerations.
I regard all claims about whether a particular instrument is or isn't made by Jinbao to be suspect. They are often of the form "I was told that ...," or "My understanding is ...," and then things of this sort are repeated across the web. I'm also pretty confident that most people who use the "Jinbao" name have no idea what it means or represents -- I know that I don't. It's easy enough to find claims on various forums (often on the same forum) that JP instruments "are also made at the Jin Bao factory" (TromboneChat, 2018) or that they are not.
It's been reported that Wessex had denied a number of times that its instruments are manufactured by Jinbao, but Jonathan Hodges has dodged the question of where his instruments are or were being made (
And you can see this sort of confusion/conflation on about any musical instrument web forum you like -- and the western sellers of "brands" of instruments remain quite careful in not adding any clarification. :-)
Instead of trying to trace the source or ancestory of a particular instrument (or line of instruments), it is probably best to view that instrument/line as it is sold by this specific company (John Packer, Wessex, Mack Brass, Schiller, Eastman, ... ... ...) and make your decisions based on the history and evaluations from that proximate source rather than attempting to involve some (possibly mythical) Chinese factory in your considerations.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="227014" time="1701891374" user_id="9763">
Nothing to say about JPRath stuff, having never tried it, but I've been told by a couple of independent sources that FWIW it does not come from Jinbao (Wessex, Mack et al).[/quote]
I regard all claims about whether a particular instrument is or isn't made by Jinbao to be suspect. [...]
</QUOTE>
Fair enough. My two sources were both directly involved in wholesale import, but I agree that it's essentially unimportant to the consumer ...hence the "FWIW".
The underlying point was mainly that the cheaper Wessex/Mack/Schiller stuff - in this case, the King 7B-ish bass - obviously shares the same designs, whether or not different importers demand or apply differing standards of QC... whereas the JPRath stuff is clearly A Different Thing.
To your original question about the Wessex Super Tenor, I've owned two instruments made wherever the Wessex "premier" stuff is made. The Urbie-ish straight tenor was reasonably well made, and played very well. The bass was cosmetically attractive, but with some serious assembly and component flaws. I didn't buy either new, and I couldn't recommend doing so.
Nothing to say about JPRath stuff, having never tried it, but I've been told by a couple of independent sources that FWIW it does not come from Jinbao (Wessex, Mack et al).[/quote]
I regard all claims about whether a particular instrument is or isn't made by Jinbao to be suspect. [...]
</QUOTE>
Fair enough. My two sources were both directly involved in wholesale import, but I agree that it's essentially unimportant to the consumer ...hence the "FWIW".
The underlying point was mainly that the cheaper Wessex/Mack/Schiller stuff - in this case, the King 7B-ish bass - obviously shares the same designs, whether or not different importers demand or apply differing standards of QC... whereas the JPRath stuff is clearly A Different Thing.
To your original question about the Wessex Super Tenor, I've owned two instruments made wherever the Wessex "premier" stuff is made. The Urbie-ish straight tenor was reasonably well made, and played very well. The bass was cosmetically attractive, but with some serious assembly and component flaws. I didn't buy either new, and I couldn't recommend doing so.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]I regard all claims about whether a particular instrument is or isn't made by Jinbao to be suspect.[/quote]
I currently own a Wessex Festivo euph and a Mack 422 tuba. In the past I've owned a super tenor, Wessex Eb tuba, Dolce euph, Urbie trombone, and a prototype double valve large tenor. The double valve tenor was fantastic, but it wasn't a production instrument. The Urbie was very good especially for the price. My Festivo had a compensating system leak in it that took me some time to find (warrantee repair). And I'm not able to really verify that my Mack tuba is tuned properly (seems to tune sharp, but I'm not a good enough tuba player to be sure I'm not the problem).
My experience with Chinese stuff in general is about even. But then I bought a Kanstul and had to send it back to get the valves straightened out, and a Shires that I straight up returned because of a weird bell defect. So cheap Chinese stuff doesn't have a corner on the market for quality issues.
I currently own a Wessex Festivo euph and a Mack 422 tuba. In the past I've owned a super tenor, Wessex Eb tuba, Dolce euph, Urbie trombone, and a prototype double valve large tenor. The double valve tenor was fantastic, but it wasn't a production instrument. The Urbie was very good especially for the price. My Festivo had a compensating system leak in it that took me some time to find (warrantee repair). And I'm not able to really verify that my Mack tuba is tuned properly (seems to tune sharp, but I'm not a good enough tuba player to be sure I'm not the problem).
My experience with Chinese stuff in general is about even. But then I bought a Kanstul and had to send it back to get the valves straightened out, and a Shires that I straight up returned because of a weird bell defect. So cheap Chinese stuff doesn't have a corner on the market for quality issues.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]To your original question about the Wessex Super Tenor, I've owned two instruments made wherever the Wessex "premier" stuff is made. The Urbie-ish straight tenor was reasonably well-made, and played extremely well. The bass was cosmetically attractive, but with some serious assembly and part flaws. I didn't buy either new, and I couldn't recommend doing so.[/quote]
Things may have changed over time. I got my Wessex tuba in 2014 -- so almost 10 years ago. It plays wonderfully and the brass is reasonably hard (not as soft as the brass in my Mack Brass euph that I got several years before that). The euph also plays very well, but not as well as the tuba. The tuba intonation is extraordinary, and tuning is "set it and forget it." It had several relatively minor (but slightly annoying) assembly flaws. The threading on the valve caps was sub-par (but not as bad as on the Mack Brass euph of that period -- only one valve cap was mildly problematic, and I dealt with that over time (Johnathan sent me replacement ones at no cost, but that didn't help the valve threading :-) ). A solder joint broke on a brace and I simply resoldered it. I was told by a very well-known tuba repair/build tech that even non-Chinese horns were exhibiting that problem because factories had gone to machine electro-soldering. No big deal. Otherwise, no defects.
The Schiller trombone was surprising to me in the quality of the fit and finish, though it too had a couple of minor problems. But Laabs supported it well.
There's a demographic of people for whom these products are both attractive and can turn out to be good purchases, depending on the circumstances, intended uses, and (at times) their own "fixit" skills or willingness to pursue warranty work, etc. For others, it's much more of a chance -- particularly if you can't try before you buy, or at least hold a sample in your hands. But that seems to have become true of a lot of instruments nowadays unless you live within convenient distance of somewhere that stocks the model(s) you're interested in and/or has supply of decent used instruments to examine and try.
Things may have changed over time. I got my Wessex tuba in 2014 -- so almost 10 years ago. It plays wonderfully and the brass is reasonably hard (not as soft as the brass in my Mack Brass euph that I got several years before that). The euph also plays very well, but not as well as the tuba. The tuba intonation is extraordinary, and tuning is "set it and forget it." It had several relatively minor (but slightly annoying) assembly flaws. The threading on the valve caps was sub-par (but not as bad as on the Mack Brass euph of that period -- only one valve cap was mildly problematic, and I dealt with that over time (Johnathan sent me replacement ones at no cost, but that didn't help the valve threading :-) ). A solder joint broke on a brace and I simply resoldered it. I was told by a very well-known tuba repair/build tech that even non-Chinese horns were exhibiting that problem because factories had gone to machine electro-soldering. No big deal. Otherwise, no defects.
The Schiller trombone was surprising to me in the quality of the fit and finish, though it too had a couple of minor problems. But Laabs supported it well.
There's a demographic of people for whom these products are both attractive and can turn out to be good purchases, depending on the circumstances, intended uses, and (at times) their own "fixit" skills or willingness to pursue warranty work, etc. For others, it's much more of a chance -- particularly if you can't try before you buy, or at least hold a sample in your hands. But that seems to have become true of a lot of instruments nowadays unless you live within convenient distance of somewhere that stocks the model(s) you're interested in and/or has supply of decent used instruments to examine and try.