Improving tone (With example)
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
My tone is just bad. There’s not really a good way to put it. I was wondering, from where I’m at right now, how can I work on improving tone? I know trying to replicate the sound of other trombonists is useful, but when I try to, no matter how I change my embouchure, I just sound meh.
Recording attached (excerpt from “It’s Just a Burning Memory”) <GOOGLEDRIVE id="1BI-cko5yBruD0jzBpCu8dw4ISu0bEIus"><LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BI-cko ... p=drivesdk">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BI-cko5yBruD0jzBpCu8dw4ISu0bEIus/view?usp=drivesdk</LINK_TEXT></GOOGLEDRIVE>
Also, apologies if the google drive link is being weird, but I don’t really have a better way to upload recordings.
Recording attached (excerpt from “It’s Just a Burning Memory”) <GOOGLEDRIVE id="1BI-cko5yBruD0jzBpCu8dw4ISu0bEIus"><LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BI-cko ... p=drivesdk">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BI-cko5yBruD0jzBpCu8dw4ISu0bEIus/view?usp=drivesdk</LINK_TEXT></GOOGLEDRIVE>
Also, apologies if the google drive link is being weird, but I don’t really have a better way to upload recordings.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
IF you want people to listen, make it easy, not hard.
Put it on Youtube or soundcloud or somewhere so we can just click on a link and hear it played and not have to ask for permission. :idk:
<ATTACHMENT filename="Screenshot 2023-12-15 193415.png" index="0">[attachment=0]Screenshot 2023-12-15 193415.png</ATTACHMENT>
Put it on Youtube or soundcloud or somewhere so we can just click on a link and hear it played and not have to ask for permission. :idk:
<ATTACHMENT filename="Screenshot 2023-12-15 193415.png" index="0">
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="robcat2075"]IF you want people to listen, make it easy, not hard.
Put it on Youtube or soundcloud or somewhere so we can just click on a link and hear it played and not have to ask for permission. :idk:
Screenshot 2023-12-15 193415.png[/quote]
My apologies, I really can’t upload it to YouTube or SoundCloud (don’t have a personal google account or SoundCloud account), hence why I attached it as a google file. Should be fixed now, i updated the permissions
Put it on Youtube or soundcloud or somewhere so we can just click on a link and hear it played and not have to ask for permission. :idk:
Screenshot 2023-12-15 193415.png[/quote]
My apologies, I really can’t upload it to YouTube or SoundCloud (don’t have a personal google account or SoundCloud account), hence why I attached it as a google file. Should be fixed now, i updated the permissions
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
You're not putting any air into the horn. That is the sound of mouthpiece buzzing, amplified by the bell. You need a good teacher and lessons.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]You need a good teacher and lessons.[/quote]
:good:
:good:
- SteveM
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Dec 21, 2021
Also, check the instrument - have someone else play it to see if it sounds the same. If it does, have it repaired or find a different trombone. If it sounds fine, you do need the help of a good teacher, as suggested above.
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]You're not putting any air into the horn. That is the sound of mouthpiece buzzing, amplified by the bell. You need a good teacher and lessons.[/quote]
Could that be because of my mouthpiece? There’s the tiniest dent at the bottom of my mouthpiece that I’ve had for the longest time. Also, I have a scratch on my slide (from rapid cooling then heating) and a few small dents near the bell area
Could that be because of my mouthpiece? There’s the tiniest dent at the bottom of my mouthpiece that I’ve had for the longest time. Also, I have a scratch on my slide (from rapid cooling then heating) and a few small dents near the bell area
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]
Could that be because of my mouthpiece? There’s the tiniest dent at the bottom of my mouthpiece that I’ve had for the longest time. Also, I have a scratch on my slide (from rapid cooling then heating) and a few small dents near the bell area[/quote]
Any excuse to avoid work :tongue:
No. These things affect the top 1% of your sound, not the bottom 99%.
Get some lessons from a good teacher and PRACTICE!!!
Could that be because of my mouthpiece? There’s the tiniest dent at the bottom of my mouthpiece that I’ve had for the longest time. Also, I have a scratch on my slide (from rapid cooling then heating) and a few small dents near the bell area[/quote]
Any excuse to avoid work :tongue:
No. These things affect the top 1% of your sound, not the bottom 99%.
Get some lessons from a good teacher and PRACTICE!!!
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="PiccoloTrombonist1" post_id="227973" time="1702727622" user_id="16763">
Could that be because of my mouthpiece? There’s the tiniest dent at the bottom of my mouthpiece that I’ve had for the longest time. Also, I have a scratch on my slide (from rapid cooling then heating) and a few small dents near the bell area[/quote]
Any excuse to avoid work :tongue:
No. These things affect the top 1% of your sound, not the bottom 99%.
Get some lessons from a good teacher and PRACTICE!!!
</QUOTE>
Sorry, I meant to qoute Harry M’s post.
Could that be because of my mouthpiece? There’s the tiniest dent at the bottom of my mouthpiece that I’ve had for the longest time. Also, I have a scratch on my slide (from rapid cooling then heating) and a few small dents near the bell area[/quote]
Any excuse to avoid work :tongue:
No. These things affect the top 1% of your sound, not the bottom 99%.
Get some lessons from a good teacher and PRACTICE!!!
</QUOTE>
Sorry, I meant to qoute Harry M’s post.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
That's the typical beginner "cow" sound. I don't think it would take long for a teacher or even an experienced player to get you on the right track.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I mean, OP, you've been accused of being an AI training program a few times already. Are you for real or just clowning on the forum?
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I mean, OP, you've been accused of being an AI training program a few times already. Are you for real or just clowning on the forum?[/quote]
This seems unfair, and as someone who worked in AI for a couple of decades, I resent it. I think any reasonable contemporary AI would have a Youtube or at least a Google Drive capability. Are you sure you're not a ChatGPT variant yourself? How would you know you're not?
This seems unfair, and as someone who worked in AI for a couple of decades, I resent it. I think any reasonable contemporary AI would have a Youtube or at least a Google Drive capability. Are you sure you're not a ChatGPT variant yourself? How would you know you're not?
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]I mean, OP, you've been accused of being an AI training program a few times already. Are you for real or just clowning on the forum?[/quote]
I am not in fact an AI. I’m not really sure why I’ve been called an AI, maybe my weird username? I am still a student, and don’t really have a reason to create a google account.
My username is because I originally made this account to ask questions about playing piccolo trombone, which I bought.
I also play tenor as my first and main instrument, which is why i also do ask questions about tenor trombone.
I know lots of my writing might fail an AI check or whatever, but that’s just my style of writing.
Also, an AI wouldn’t generate an audio with noise (you can check for the noise by running the audio through a spectrogram)
I am not in fact an AI. I’m not really sure why I’ve been called an AI, maybe my weird username? I am still a student, and don’t really have a reason to create a google account.
My username is because I originally made this account to ask questions about playing piccolo trombone, which I bought.
I also play tenor as my first and main instrument, which is why i also do ask questions about tenor trombone.
I know lots of my writing might fail an AI check or whatever, but that’s just my style of writing.
Also, an AI wouldn’t generate an audio with noise (you can check for the noise by running the audio through a spectrogram)
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="227990" time="1702741087" user_id="3642">
I mean, OP, you've been accused of being an AI training program a few times already. Are you for real or just clowning on the forum?[/quote]
This seems unfair, and as someone who worked in AI for a couple of decades, I resent it. I think any reasonable contemporary AI would have a Youtube or at least a Google Drive capability. Are you sure you're not a ChatGPT variant yourself? How would you know you're not?
</QUOTE>
We're all living in a simulation, so all our intelligence is artificial. I can't prove I'm not, anyway.
OP, I believe you that you're not an AI. Your topics of interest have all been unique.
I don't think it's the mouthpiece or any gear related stuff that is the cause of the particular issue you're having with tone. Do you get lessons each week?
I mean, OP, you've been accused of being an AI training program a few times already. Are you for real or just clowning on the forum?[/quote]
This seems unfair, and as someone who worked in AI for a couple of decades, I resent it. I think any reasonable contemporary AI would have a Youtube or at least a Google Drive capability. Are you sure you're not a ChatGPT variant yourself? How would you know you're not?
</QUOTE>
We're all living in a simulation, so all our intelligence is artificial. I can't prove I'm not, anyway.
OP, I believe you that you're not an AI. Your topics of interest have all been unique.
I don't think it's the mouthpiece or any gear related stuff that is the cause of the particular issue you're having with tone. Do you get lessons each week?
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ghmerrill" post_id="227995" time="1702743346" user_id="2941">
This seems unfair, and as someone who worked in AI for a couple of decades, I resent it. I think any reasonable contemporary AI would have a Youtube or at least a Google Drive capability. Are you sure you're not a ChatGPT variant yourself? How would you know you're not?[/quote]
We're all living in a simulation, so all our intelligence is artificial. I can't prove I'm not, anyway.
OP, I believe you that you're not an AI. Your topics of interest have all been unique.
I don't think it's the mouthpiece or any gear related stuff that is the cause of the particular issue you're having with tone. Do you get lessons each week?
</QUOTE>
I get lessons once a week from on Tuesdays. These lessons come from a professional trombonist who has gigs at weddings. These lessons last 45-60 minutes. We have worked on tone once before, and he gave me some pointers to practice tone. I’ve tried doing them (most of them have been mentioned here, the one that hasn’t is to try holding a piece of paper to a wall with your air, which is the one I do regularly), but most of these exercises are really boring. I try to do them at least 45 minutes a week total, not including holding a paper to a wall. Something happened to my tone since then, which is what is causing me to have, as one user described, a “cow sound”.
This seems unfair, and as someone who worked in AI for a couple of decades, I resent it. I think any reasonable contemporary AI would have a Youtube or at least a Google Drive capability. Are you sure you're not a ChatGPT variant yourself? How would you know you're not?[/quote]
We're all living in a simulation, so all our intelligence is artificial. I can't prove I'm not, anyway.
OP, I believe you that you're not an AI. Your topics of interest have all been unique.
I don't think it's the mouthpiece or any gear related stuff that is the cause of the particular issue you're having with tone. Do you get lessons each week?
</QUOTE>
I get lessons once a week from on Tuesdays. These lessons come from a professional trombonist who has gigs at weddings. These lessons last 45-60 minutes. We have worked on tone once before, and he gave me some pointers to practice tone. I’ve tried doing them (most of them have been mentioned here, the one that hasn’t is to try holding a piece of paper to a wall with your air, which is the one I do regularly), but most of these exercises are really boring. I try to do them at least 45 minutes a week total, not including holding a paper to a wall. Something happened to my tone since then, which is what is causing me to have, as one user described, a “cow sound”.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]We're all living in a simulation, so all our intelligence is artificial. I can't prove I'm not, anyway.[/quote]
Beware. That path likely ends in solipism, in which case you have only yourself to talk to. :lol:
Beware. That path likely ends in solipism, in which case you have only yourself to talk to. :lol:
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I once attended a trombone masterclass with Mark Lawrence in Seattle. One of the players played well enough but had a tone that I could only describe as “brown”. For me it really stood out (not in a good way) although I don’t recall any comment about it.
This would be the ideal circumstance for a “one off” with a different teacher. A second opinion. To me a “cow sound” suggests an articulation or tongue/air coordination problem.
This would be the ideal circumstance for a “one off” with a different teacher. A second opinion. To me a “cow sound” suggests an articulation or tongue/air coordination problem.
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="Bach5G"]I once attended a trombone masterclass with Mark Lawrence in Seattle. One of the players played well enough but had a tone that I could only describe as “brown”. For me it really stood out (not in a good way) although I don’t recall any comment about it.
This would be the ideal circumstance for a “one off” with a different teacher. A second opinion. To me a “cow sound” suggests an articulation or tongue/air coordination problem.[/quote]
Tongue Coordination helps, but in the opposite direction I’m going for. If I make a U shape with my tongue, i have bad sound mixed with red sound. My goal would be yellow sound though, so I’m trying to experiment with other embouchure shapes
This would be the ideal circumstance for a “one off” with a different teacher. A second opinion. To me a “cow sound” suggests an articulation or tongue/air coordination problem.[/quote]
Tongue Coordination helps, but in the opposite direction I’m going for. If I make a U shape with my tongue, i have bad sound mixed with red sound. My goal would be yellow sound though, so I’m trying to experiment with other embouchure shapes
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I confess that I'm totally lost here with the color-designated sounds: brown, red, yellow. But especially "the cow sound" (particularly since cows make a number of sounds, including bellowing, mooing, snorting, and farting). I am pretty sure I can make at least some of those on my trombones, although mooing is easier on the tuba.
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="ghmerrill"]I confess that I'm totally lost here with the color-designated sounds: brown, red, yellow. But especially "the cow sound" (particularly since cows make a number of sounds, including bellowing, mooing, snorting, and farting). I am pretty sure I can make at least some of those on my trombones, although mooing is easier on the tuba.[/quote]
Cow sound/ brown sound refers to my sound (I’m assuming for brown but that’s the best I can do)
Red sound is a more brassy sound. It’s found in lots of marching band solos and such.
Yellow sound is a more relaxing sort of sound. This video is a sample of yellow sound. I believe it is more common in slower jazz. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8u9P5NS/
The video attached is also my “target sound,” the sound im trying to replicate.
For a good yellow sound, the overtone series is smaller, and it gets extremely quite after the 10th.
For red, I believe it is the opposite, where the overtone series is very large.
My overtone series happens to be very muddy. In spectrograms of yellow sound, I saw that the pitches of the overtone series are very precise, meanwhile in mine, it’s less precise and can be out of tune +- a quartertone
Cow sound/ brown sound refers to my sound (I’m assuming for brown but that’s the best I can do)
Red sound is a more brassy sound. It’s found in lots of marching band solos and such.
Yellow sound is a more relaxing sort of sound. This video is a sample of yellow sound. I believe it is more common in slower jazz. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8u9P5NS/
The video attached is also my “target sound,” the sound im trying to replicate.
For a good yellow sound, the overtone series is smaller, and it gets extremely quite after the 10th.
For red, I believe it is the opposite, where the overtone series is very large.
My overtone series happens to be very muddy. In spectrograms of yellow sound, I saw that the pitches of the overtone series are very precise, meanwhile in mine, it’s less precise and can be out of tune +- a quartertone
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I guess I was off in terms of the meaning of "cow sound". :roll: Luckily I don't feel the need to communicate with that terminology or I'd be totally lost in terms of actually playing my trombone. Definitely something missing there about what's often called "intersubjective meaning." Expectations must be adjusted accordingly. :|
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
When you talk about making a shape with your tongue, what leaps to mind is: “Get your tongue out of the way!”
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]
Yellow sound is a more relaxing sort of sound. This video is a sample of yellow sound. I believe it is more common in slower jazz. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8u9P5NS/
The video attached is also my “target sound,” the sound im trying to replicate.
[/quote]
I don't want to be elitist or exclusive... but I think you can find much, much better sounds to emulate, even within that style.
Yellow sound is a more relaxing sort of sound. This video is a sample of yellow sound. I believe it is more common in slower jazz. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8u9P5NS/
The video attached is also my “target sound,” the sound im trying to replicate.
[/quote]
I don't want to be elitist or exclusive... but I think you can find much, much better sounds to emulate, even within that style.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I try to do them at least 45 minutes a week total[/quote]
You will need to have the horn on your face for much more time than this. There's no work-around to drilling the muscles to respond efficiently. It takes a lot of time and patience.
And yes, it can be really boring. But boring-ness may also be a symptom of simply not finding enough interesting things to play. I don't just mean book exercises.
You will need to have the horn on your face for much more time than this. There's no work-around to drilling the muscles to respond efficiently. It takes a lot of time and patience.
And yes, it can be really boring. But boring-ness may also be a symptom of simply not finding enough interesting things to play. I don't just mean book exercises.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
This is usually how anyone sound when they start. I agree you need to meet with someone who can be a raw model. It's important to have a lesson and hear and emulate the teachers sound and to be in the same room and listen and compare beats everything else.
What I hear is you are too tense in the area that should vibrate free. I would suggest to NOT tighten your lips that much and start with long tones. Listen to yourself. Also concentrate to hear the pitch first. If you start on first position and play the F or Bb with no tongue, just start with air and no tungue. If you have a piano you can check the pitch first with the piano. Then make sure you have the exact pitch in your head and see if you can back of the mouthpiece enough to make a free sound. Experiment with less air first and then gradually increase your attempts to find just the right flow of air. Not too little and not too much. Do not force the air. Try to find balance and get the feeling of what a clear sound is in your head. I know It's easier said than done, but this sound you get now is very common and is probably how we all started. It's important to move away from but you've got something started and you now gradually need to find the pitch-centre and strive to make it more and more clear. All who developed a good sound did that with experiments while they listned to themself and corrected themself towards the goal. They who hear inside will come closer in time. They who dont't will never. There are many tools. You can play the lips alone, the mouthpiece alone. You can breath deep and just let the air out. Let it be slow warm air. Dont't use force. Then you add the mouthpiece and see how little you need to make that sound, then you increase the mouthpiece sound. See if you can hold a note for five seconds on the mouthpiece, see if you can do ten. It should be an airy relaxed soft sound on the mouthpiece not a pinched sound. Add the full horn. Do just one long note. Try to make it sing. If you take a big breath your built up air will be sufficient by it self to make a relaxed F or Bb. It will give you a first relaxed sound to work on.
/Tom
What I hear is you are too tense in the area that should vibrate free. I would suggest to NOT tighten your lips that much and start with long tones. Listen to yourself. Also concentrate to hear the pitch first. If you start on first position and play the F or Bb with no tongue, just start with air and no tungue. If you have a piano you can check the pitch first with the piano. Then make sure you have the exact pitch in your head and see if you can back of the mouthpiece enough to make a free sound. Experiment with less air first and then gradually increase your attempts to find just the right flow of air. Not too little and not too much. Do not force the air. Try to find balance and get the feeling of what a clear sound is in your head. I know It's easier said than done, but this sound you get now is very common and is probably how we all started. It's important to move away from but you've got something started and you now gradually need to find the pitch-centre and strive to make it more and more clear. All who developed a good sound did that with experiments while they listned to themself and corrected themself towards the goal. They who hear inside will come closer in time. They who dont't will never. There are many tools. You can play the lips alone, the mouthpiece alone. You can breath deep and just let the air out. Let it be slow warm air. Dont't use force. Then you add the mouthpiece and see how little you need to make that sound, then you increase the mouthpiece sound. See if you can hold a note for five seconds on the mouthpiece, see if you can do ten. It should be an airy relaxed soft sound on the mouthpiece not a pinched sound. Add the full horn. Do just one long note. Try to make it sing. If you take a big breath your built up air will be sufficient by it self to make a relaxed F or Bb. It will give you a first relaxed sound to work on.
/Tom
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="PiccoloTrombonist1" post_id="228015" time="1702754435" user_id="16763">
I try to do them at least 45 minutes a week total[/quote]
You will need to have the horn on your face for much more time than this. There's no work-around to drilling the muscles to respond efficiently. It takes a lot of time and patience.
And yes, it can be really boring. But boring-ness may also be a symptom of simply not finding enough interesting things to play. I don't just mean book exercises.
</QUOTE>
I do do exercises other than just the 45 minutes a week of tone + private lessons. I normally practice lip slurs, lip bends, false tones, scales, and sightreading. Sometimes I’ll do improv for long periods of time (10 minutes of just playing)
I try to do them at least 45 minutes a week total[/quote]
You will need to have the horn on your face for much more time than this. There's no work-around to drilling the muscles to respond efficiently. It takes a lot of time and patience.
And yes, it can be really boring. But boring-ness may also be a symptom of simply not finding enough interesting things to play. I don't just mean book exercises.
</QUOTE>
I do do exercises other than just the 45 minutes a week of tone + private lessons. I normally practice lip slurs, lip bends, false tones, scales, and sightreading. Sometimes I’ll do improv for long periods of time (10 minutes of just playing)
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
It sounds a little like my son’s playing when he first picked up the horn, to be honest. I can echo what imsevimse wrote. I’m by no means a teacher or expert, but I can say what helped with him was relaxing a bit. He was playing ‘tight lipped’ so to say…which was having a major effect on his tone. The tightness in which we was playing was creating issues with his aperture and not allowing his lips to vibrate naturally…
At the end of the day, it may be worth it to seek another instructor. Not saying the one you are using is bad, it’s just that we all learn differently and a change in teaching style/approach may help make things more clear and lead to better progression because the inverse in terms of teaching is also true.
At the end of the day, it may be worth it to seek another instructor. Not saying the one you are using is bad, it’s just that we all learn differently and a change in teaching style/approach may help make things more clear and lead to better progression because the inverse in terms of teaching is also true.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
In 15 minutes on Skype I can fix that easily.
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
After taking in all of this advice, my biggest problem is the half notes. I tried adding more confidence in my tone which I believe helped. My B in 7th is out of tune, because I can’t reach there, but imo this does have better sound. <GOOGLEDRIVE id="1QBqssSBvT7fq6XpaboShPIUp2Qlm5_VM"><LINK_TEXT text="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QBqssS ... p=drivesdk">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QBqssSBvT7fq6XpaboShPIUp2Qlm5_VM/view?usp=drivesdk</LINK_TEXT></GOOGLEDRIVE>
My sound is much better as I get higher (middle Bb to High Bb is my best tone, hence why I’m working on lower tone), which after looking at a spectrogram I saw was because somehow I was playing undertones. Tbh I didn’t even know that was possible, i believe this may be what causes my sound to be a bit nasally.
Also, to anyone saying to try a new teacher and stuff like that, they nearest option is some guy who plays guitar and a place 2 hours away. Also, we haven’t worked on tone much, because lots of the time lessons are spent on pieces in my upper range that need working on, and since I have good sound in my upper range, tone was never an issue. I’m practicing lower parts now for 2 reasons: 1, to just get better in general, you can’t really play trombone if you can’t play below Bb3, and because I got a bass trombone part in a band near my, where high schoolers from the county can audition. I got 3rd chair (out of 3), so I’m playing bass
My sound is much better as I get higher (middle Bb to High Bb is my best tone, hence why I’m working on lower tone), which after looking at a spectrogram I saw was because somehow I was playing undertones. Tbh I didn’t even know that was possible, i believe this may be what causes my sound to be a bit nasally.
Also, to anyone saying to try a new teacher and stuff like that, they nearest option is some guy who plays guitar and a place 2 hours away. Also, we haven’t worked on tone much, because lots of the time lessons are spent on pieces in my upper range that need working on, and since I have good sound in my upper range, tone was never an issue. I’m practicing lower parts now for 2 reasons: 1, to just get better in general, you can’t really play trombone if you can’t play below Bb3, and because I got a bass trombone part in a band near my, where high schoolers from the county can audition. I got 3rd chair (out of 3), so I’m playing bass
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
Go do this:
[quote="Doug Elliott"]In 15 minutes on Skype I can fix that easily.[/quote]
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
Go do this:
[quote="Doug Elliott"]In 15 minutes on Skype I can fix that easily.[/quote]
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
OP, you gotta be clownin on us
I don't need science to show why I can't run even 50% as fast as Usain Bolt. You need lessons and to practice, and to get your face in shape
I don't need science to show why I can't run even 50% as fast as Usain Bolt. You need lessons and to practice, and to get your face in shape
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]<QUOTE author="AndrewMeronek" post_id="228031" time="1702763259" user_id="268">
You will need to have the horn on your face for much more time than this. There's no work-around to drilling the muscles to respond efficiently. It takes a lot of time and patience.
And yes, it can be really boring. But boring-ness may also be a symptom of simply not finding enough interesting things to play. I don't just mean book exercises.[/quote]
I do do exercises other than just the 45 minutes a week of tone + private lessons. I normally practice lip slurs, lip bends, false tones, scales, and sightreading. Sometimes I’ll do improv for long periods of time (10 minutes of just playing)
</QUOTE>
A good goal for time spent in basic terms is an hour per day - or if you add it up, 420 minutes per week.
You will need to have the horn on your face for much more time than this. There's no work-around to drilling the muscles to respond efficiently. It takes a lot of time and patience.
And yes, it can be really boring. But boring-ness may also be a symptom of simply not finding enough interesting things to play. I don't just mean book exercises.[/quote]
I do do exercises other than just the 45 minutes a week of tone + private lessons. I normally practice lip slurs, lip bends, false tones, scales, and sightreading. Sometimes I’ll do improv for long periods of time (10 minutes of just playing)
</QUOTE>
A good goal for time spent in basic terms is an hour per day - or if you add it up, 420 minutes per week.
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]OP, you gotta be clownin on us
I don't need science to show why I can't run even 50% as fast as Usain Bolt. You need lessons and to practice, and to get your face in shape[/quote]
Ok good point. I was trying to see what in specific makes me sound bad, but ya, that’s a good analogy
I don't need science to show why I can't run even 50% as fast as Usain Bolt. You need lessons and to practice, and to get your face in shape[/quote]
Ok good point. I was trying to see what in specific makes me sound bad, but ya, that’s a good analogy
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Why not stop hypothesizing and posting until you've taken the Skype lesson(s) from Doug Elliott and digested and implemented his suggestions?
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Why not stop hypothesizing and posting until you've taken the Skype lesson(s) from Doug Elliott and digested and implemented his suggestions?[/quote]
I personally think it is more interesting to hear what Doug has to say about this (and other good players/teachers) . Usually at this forum the advice (nowdays) is to have a lesson with Doug and from there WE do not learn anything because we are not in that room. I did recommend something. What do you suggest? This is a forum. We should at least be able to discuss, not just recomnend lessons from Doug. As I said: We will not learn anything if we do not discuss and try to help within the forum. Why not do a recording to help him and post here? In this case we have audio. What does those recordings tell? Please use constructive criticism and be positive.
To improve your tone you need to play easier stuff than what you recorded so far. Just a simple Bb flat or F. Start soft and a little creschendo with dimenuendo. Use no tungue. Try the mouthpiece alone first. Do the note
5 times on the mouthpiece and listen. Try to open the sound when you put the mouthpiece in the reciever and do the same again. You may need to experiment with mouthpiece placement. Try to find a placement that gives a more open sound in the horn. It should be an airy sound on the mouthpiece alone.
/Tom
I personally think it is more interesting to hear what Doug has to say about this (and other good players/teachers) . Usually at this forum the advice (nowdays) is to have a lesson with Doug and from there WE do not learn anything because we are not in that room. I did recommend something. What do you suggest? This is a forum. We should at least be able to discuss, not just recomnend lessons from Doug. As I said: We will not learn anything if we do not discuss and try to help within the forum. Why not do a recording to help him and post here? In this case we have audio. What does those recordings tell? Please use constructive criticism and be positive.
To improve your tone you need to play easier stuff than what you recorded so far. Just a simple Bb flat or F. Start soft and a little creschendo with dimenuendo. Use no tungue. Try the mouthpiece alone first. Do the note
5 times on the mouthpiece and listen. Try to open the sound when you put the mouthpiece in the reciever and do the same again. You may need to experiment with mouthpiece placement. Try to find a placement that gives a more open sound in the horn. It should be an airy sound on the mouthpiece alone.
/Tom
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]OP, you gotta be clownin on us[/quote]
I don't think so.
Remember that people nowadays who are looking at figuring out whatever tools might help them will probably use AI, and the observation about undertones suggests this. It is not bad. AI like ChatGPT can be great tools as long as we understand what these systems actually are good at and what their weaknesses are.
IMHO.
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
I'm curious why you ended up digging into doing a spectrogram analysis, and how your conclusion here suggests overblowing. In my experience with teaching (admittedly very little compared to some others here) that for people like yourself who are still figuring out how to physically control the instrument, that this direction in investigation simply isn't all that useful because a spectrogram doesn't tell you anything about what to adjust, physically.
I don't think so.
Remember that people nowadays who are looking at figuring out whatever tools might help them will probably use AI, and the observation about undertones suggests this. It is not bad. AI like ChatGPT can be great tools as long as we understand what these systems actually are good at and what their weaknesses are.
IMHO.
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
I'm curious why you ended up digging into doing a spectrogram analysis, and how your conclusion here suggests overblowing. In my experience with teaching (admittedly very little compared to some others here) that for people like yourself who are still figuring out how to physically control the instrument, that this direction in investigation simply isn't all that useful because a spectrogram doesn't tell you anything about what to adjust, physically.
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="228121" time="1702844806" user_id="3642">
OP, you gotta be clownin on us[/quote]
I don't think so.
Remember that people nowadays who are looking at figuring out whatever tools might help them will probably use AI, and the observation about undertones suggests this. It is not bad. AI like ChatGPT can be great tools as long as we understand what these systems actually are good at and what their weaknesses are.
IMHO.
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
I'm curious why you ended up digging into doing a spectrogram analysis, and how your conclusion here suggests overblowing. In my experience with teaching (admittedly very little compared to some others here) that for people like yourself who are still figuring out how to physically control the instrument, that this direction in investigation simply isn't all that useful because a spectrogram doesn't tell you anything about what to adjust, physically.
</QUOTE>
I do use ChatGPT sometimes, but I tend to be wary of it, as it has no experience playing trombone, and will sometimes spout complete nonsense, or give extremely generic advice.
As for looking into the spectrogram, my thought process was “what is the actual difference between my tone and better player’s tone”. By looking at the spectrogram, I saw that my loudest note was not the lowest note, which suggest that I’m either playing a really loud overtone (which if I was, a tuner would think I was playing F when i was playing Bb, which it wasn’t), or I was playing an undertone. I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion. By blowing using less air, I just get a shakier sound though, not a better one, and by using more air than I normally do, I do actually play a note that’s overblown, so I believe my original theory of me overblowing is false. Something I did realize is that I produce quite a nasily sound, kind of like talking with your nose plugged. I’m not really sure why this is, but I have lessons on Tuesday, so I plan to look into it then.
OP, you gotta be clownin on us[/quote]
I don't think so.
Remember that people nowadays who are looking at figuring out whatever tools might help them will probably use AI, and the observation about undertones suggests this. It is not bad. AI like ChatGPT can be great tools as long as we understand what these systems actually are good at and what their weaknesses are.
IMHO.
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
I'm curious why you ended up digging into doing a spectrogram analysis, and how your conclusion here suggests overblowing. In my experience with teaching (admittedly very little compared to some others here) that for people like yourself who are still figuring out how to physically control the instrument, that this direction in investigation simply isn't all that useful because a spectrogram doesn't tell you anything about what to adjust, physically.
</QUOTE>
I do use ChatGPT sometimes, but I tend to be wary of it, as it has no experience playing trombone, and will sometimes spout complete nonsense, or give extremely generic advice.
As for looking into the spectrogram, my thought process was “what is the actual difference between my tone and better player’s tone”. By looking at the spectrogram, I saw that my loudest note was not the lowest note, which suggest that I’m either playing a really loud overtone (which if I was, a tuner would think I was playing F when i was playing Bb, which it wasn’t), or I was playing an undertone. I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion. By blowing using less air, I just get a shakier sound though, not a better one, and by using more air than I normally do, I do actually play a note that’s overblown, so I believe my original theory of me overblowing is false. Something I did realize is that I produce quite a nasily sound, kind of like talking with your nose plugged. I’m not really sure why this is, but I have lessons on Tuesday, so I plan to look into it then.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="228121" time="1702844806" user_id="3642">
OP, you gotta be clownin on us[/quote]
I don't think so.
Remember that people nowadays who are looking at figuring out whatever tools might help them will probably use AI, and the observation about undertones suggests this. It is not bad. AI like ChatGPT can be great tools as long as we understand what these systems actually are good at and what their weaknesses are.
IMHO.
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
I'm curious why you ended up digging into doing a spectrogram analysis, and how your conclusion here suggests overblowing. In my experience with teaching (admittedly very little compared to some others here) that for people like yourself who are still figuring out how to physically control the instrument, that this direction in investigation simply isn't all that useful because a spectrogram doesn't tell you anything about what to adjust, physically.
</QUOTE>
AI is terrible if you read there to seek guidence you will not learn. I've given AI some questions about trombone playing just to check and what it does is it gives a general answer that is not totally wrong but also too unspecific to help anyone for real. When you then ask about details in the first answer those answers are all over the place. They can be totally wrong or just partly wrong AI often adds things you have not asked about and that can be correct or NOT but the way it does ths is with great confidence and passion so you think it knows what it's talking about. At the moment AI can not take the place of a good teacher it is real bad.
Now how do we start a student to make a good sound from scratch, which this is about?
/Tom
OP, you gotta be clownin on us[/quote]
I don't think so.
Remember that people nowadays who are looking at figuring out whatever tools might help them will probably use AI, and the observation about undertones suggests this. It is not bad. AI like ChatGPT can be great tools as long as we understand what these systems actually are good at and what their weaknesses are.
IMHO.
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I did some science stuff and found this:
By using a live spectrogram I saw my Bb3-Bb4 octave had no undertones, however F3 (in first) and every note below that had an undertone. I did some research and this normally comes from overblowing. However, overblowing doesn’t really seem to be much of a thing on brass instruments, so I’m not entirely sure. Could this be the cause of my bad sound in lower registers?[/quote]
I'm curious why you ended up digging into doing a spectrogram analysis, and how your conclusion here suggests overblowing. In my experience with teaching (admittedly very little compared to some others here) that for people like yourself who are still figuring out how to physically control the instrument, that this direction in investigation simply isn't all that useful because a spectrogram doesn't tell you anything about what to adjust, physically.
</QUOTE>
AI is terrible if you read there to seek guidence you will not learn. I've given AI some questions about trombone playing just to check and what it does is it gives a general answer that is not totally wrong but also too unspecific to help anyone for real. When you then ask about details in the first answer those answers are all over the place. They can be totally wrong or just partly wrong AI often adds things you have not asked about and that can be correct or NOT but the way it does ths is with great confidence and passion so you think it knows what it's talking about. At the moment AI can not take the place of a good teacher it is real bad.
Now how do we start a student to make a good sound from scratch, which this is about?
/Tom
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="imsevimse"]Now how do we start a student to make a good sound from scratch, which this is about?[/quote]
It comes on its own. You just wait until they have played several years. Meanwhile, you keep them from hearing any real players, otherwise it would discourage them...
At least, that's how I was taught.
It comes on its own. You just wait until they have played several years. Meanwhile, you keep them from hearing any real players, otherwise it would discourage them...
At least, that's how I was taught.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]As for looking into the spectrogram, my thought process was “what is the actual difference between my tone and better player’s tone”. By looking at the spectrogram, I saw that my loudest note was not the lowest note, which suggest that I’m either playing a really loud overtone (which if I was, a tuner would think I was playing F when i was playing Bb, which it wasn’t), or I was playing an undertone. I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion. By blowing using less air, I just get a shakier sound though, not a better one, and by using more air than I normally do, I do actually play a note that’s overblown, so I believe my original theory of me overblowing is false. Something I did realize is that I produce quite a nasily sound, kind of like talking with your nose plugged. I’m not really sure why this is, but I have lessons on Tuesday, so I plan to look into it then.[/quote]
Your are making a lot of assumptions based on the spectral analysis. I can tell you, with 95% certainty and as a giver of private lessons, that the reason for the tone will not be found in the spectral analysis. What I can hear is that your tone production is mostly happening in your lips and inside your mouth. The "resistor" in the system is the lips, in your case. The tone should be produced by pushing the resistor further into the horn. Your need to feel the horn pushing back on you somewhere around the top slide tube. Open up the chops and push air into the horn. Let the horn do it's job.
One way to work on your sound is to get into a big room. Full up the room with sound.
Your are making a lot of assumptions based on the spectral analysis. I can tell you, with 95% certainty and as a giver of private lessons, that the reason for the tone will not be found in the spectral analysis. What I can hear is that your tone production is mostly happening in your lips and inside your mouth. The "resistor" in the system is the lips, in your case. The tone should be produced by pushing the resistor further into the horn. Your need to feel the horn pushing back on you somewhere around the top slide tube. Open up the chops and push air into the horn. Let the horn do it's job.
One way to work on your sound is to get into a big room. Full up the room with sound.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="228164" time="1702861951" user_id="3173">
Now how do we start a student to make a good sound from scratch, which this is about?[/quote]
It comes on its own. You just wait until they have played several years. Meanwhile, you keep them from hearing any real players, otherwise it would discourage them...
At least, that's how I was taught.
</QUOTE>
I see. No that has nothing to do with teaching. Teaching is done by an experiensed teacher. In the beginning not very experiensed but in time after hundereds of students the teacher might be better. Some teachers are good players which helps, some can not play the instrument they teach. They are in my book not very trustworthy. How good player you need to be to teach? It helps a lot if you have had some problems you have overcome. You need to know the importance of practice. You need to be able to show on your instrument. You need to support your student with guidence. Give suggestions and encourage the student to experiment. You must remember what it was like to be a student yourself.
/Tom
Now how do we start a student to make a good sound from scratch, which this is about?[/quote]
It comes on its own. You just wait until they have played several years. Meanwhile, you keep them from hearing any real players, otherwise it would discourage them...
At least, that's how I was taught.
</QUOTE>
I see. No that has nothing to do with teaching. Teaching is done by an experiensed teacher. In the beginning not very experiensed but in time after hundereds of students the teacher might be better. Some teachers are good players which helps, some can not play the instrument they teach. They are in my book not very trustworthy. How good player you need to be to teach? It helps a lot if you have had some problems you have overcome. You need to know the importance of practice. You need to be able to show on your instrument. You need to support your student with guidence. Give suggestions and encourage the student to experiment. You must remember what it was like to be a student yourself.
/Tom
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]One way to work on your sound is to get into a big room. Full up the room with sound.[/quote]
One of my instructors when I was in 7th grade and playing saxophone used to continually tell me "fill the horn with air." Alas, I never knew what that meant even though I tried about everything I could think of to do it. Later I came to understand that when I played well I wasn't filling the horn with air at all, and my sound had much more to do with my embouchure and "breath support" (which I suppose could be visualized as my diaphragm doing push-ups -- or bench presses?) Better instructors had better analogies and more specific directions that helped me, and I got better. They even helped me with later picking up the flute -- which I definitely never "filled with air". :lol:
I guess my point here is that you can tell a student to go to a room and fill it up with sound. But unless you're there with him/her (even if remotely over an audio/video link), the chance of that having any determinable effect is slim, and may in fact be detrimental-- at least in my experience.
To borrow from others in a somewhat different area, long ago and far away: "First, do no harm."
One of my instructors when I was in 7th grade and playing saxophone used to continually tell me "fill the horn with air." Alas, I never knew what that meant even though I tried about everything I could think of to do it. Later I came to understand that when I played well I wasn't filling the horn with air at all, and my sound had much more to do with my embouchure and "breath support" (which I suppose could be visualized as my diaphragm doing push-ups -- or bench presses?) Better instructors had better analogies and more specific directions that helped me, and I got better. They even helped me with later picking up the flute -- which I definitely never "filled with air". :lol:
I guess my point here is that you can tell a student to go to a room and fill it up with sound. But unless you're there with him/her (even if remotely over an audio/video link), the chance of that having any determinable effect is slim, and may in fact be detrimental-- at least in my experience.
To borrow from others in a somewhat different area, long ago and far away: "First, do no harm."
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="imsevimse"]I see. No that has nothing to do with teaching. Teaching is done by an experiensed teacher. In the beginning not very experiensed but in time after hundereds of students the teacher might be better.[/quote]
While it was the truth, I was trying to express it in humorous fashion. A joke, if you will. I learned to play from my sister's clarinet teacher, a retired band director. By the time I got a real trombonist, my flaws had either corrected themselves, or my compensations were well-developed. I'm now (30 years later) finally uncovering and understanding them.
While it was the truth, I was trying to express it in humorous fashion. A joke, if you will. I learned to play from my sister's clarinet teacher, a retired band director. By the time I got a real trombonist, my flaws had either corrected themselves, or my compensations were well-developed. I'm now (30 years later) finally uncovering and understanding them.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I recall a story from the old trombone-L days of a fellow having to blow up air mattresses for his kids. He had no trouble filling his horn with air after that.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
That always seemed like a silly phrase. The horn is already full of air.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]That always seemed like a silly phrase. The horn is already full of air.[/quote]
Yeah, and then there's all that physics business about standing waves, and such. But why get all confused by that when there's air to be "blown".
Yeah, and then there's all that physics business about standing waves, and such. But why get all confused by that when there's air to be "blown".
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="228134" time="1702850050" user_id="158">
Why not stop hypothesizing and posting until you've taken the Skype lesson(s) from Doug Elliott and digested and implemented his suggestions?[/quote]
I personally think it is more interesting to hear what Doug has to say about this (and other good players/teachers) . Usually at this forum the advice (nowdays) is to have a lesson with Doug and from there WE do not learn anything because we are not in that room. I did recommend something. What do you suggest? This is a forum. We should at least be able to discuss, not just recomnend lessons from Doug. As I said: We will not learn anything if we do not discuss and try to help within the forum. Why not do a recording to help him and post here? In this case we have audio. What does those recordings tell? Please use constructive criticism and be positive.
To improve your tone you need to play easier stuff than what you recorded so far. Just a simple Bb flat or F. Start soft and a little creschendo with dimenuendo. Use no tungue. Try the mouthpiece alone first. Do the note
5 times on the mouthpiece and listen. Try to open the sound when you put the mouthpiece in the reciever and do the same again. You may need to experiment with mouthpiece placement. Try to find a placement that gives a more open sound in the horn. It should be an airy sound on the mouthpiece alone.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
We can "discuss it" forever and never know what actually needs to be changed. I work with what I see.
Why not stop hypothesizing and posting until you've taken the Skype lesson(s) from Doug Elliott and digested and implemented his suggestions?[/quote]
I personally think it is more interesting to hear what Doug has to say about this (and other good players/teachers) . Usually at this forum the advice (nowdays) is to have a lesson with Doug and from there WE do not learn anything because we are not in that room. I did recommend something. What do you suggest? This is a forum. We should at least be able to discuss, not just recomnend lessons from Doug. As I said: We will not learn anything if we do not discuss and try to help within the forum. Why not do a recording to help him and post here? In this case we have audio. What does those recordings tell? Please use constructive criticism and be positive.
To improve your tone you need to play easier stuff than what you recorded so far. Just a simple Bb flat or F. Start soft and a little creschendo with dimenuendo. Use no tungue. Try the mouthpiece alone first. Do the note
5 times on the mouthpiece and listen. Try to open the sound when you put the mouthpiece in the reciever and do the same again. You may need to experiment with mouthpiece placement. Try to find a placement that gives a more open sound in the horn. It should be an airy sound on the mouthpiece alone.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
We can "discuss it" forever and never know what actually needs to be changed. I work with what I see.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="228154" time="1702858705" user_id="3173">
I personally think it is more interesting to hear what Doug has to say about this (and other good players/teachers) . Usually at this forum the advice (nowdays) is to have a lesson with Doug and from there WE do not learn anything because we are not in that room. I did recommend something. What do you suggest? This is a forum. We should at least be able to discuss, not just recomnend lessons from Doug. As I said: We will not learn anything if we do not discuss and try to help within the forum. Why not do a recording to help him and post here? In this case we have audio. What does those recordings tell? Please use constructive criticism and be positive.
To improve your tone you need to play easier stuff than what you recorded so far. Just a simple Bb flat or F. Start soft and a little creschendo with dimenuendo. Use no tungue. Try the mouthpiece alone first. Do the note
5 times on the mouthpiece and listen. Try to open the sound when you put the mouthpiece in the reciever and do the same again. You may need to experiment with mouthpiece placement. Try to find a placement that gives a more open sound in the horn. It should be an airy sound on the mouthpiece alone.
/Tom[/quote]
We can "discuss it" forever and never know what actually needs to be changed. I work with what I see.
</QUOTE>
I see. Please OP could you record yourself with video. Try to videotape right infront so we can see your mouth in close-up.
/Tom
I personally think it is more interesting to hear what Doug has to say about this (and other good players/teachers) . Usually at this forum the advice (nowdays) is to have a lesson with Doug and from there WE do not learn anything because we are not in that room. I did recommend something. What do you suggest? This is a forum. We should at least be able to discuss, not just recomnend lessons from Doug. As I said: We will not learn anything if we do not discuss and try to help within the forum. Why not do a recording to help him and post here? In this case we have audio. What does those recordings tell? Please use constructive criticism and be positive.
To improve your tone you need to play easier stuff than what you recorded so far. Just a simple Bb flat or F. Start soft and a little creschendo with dimenuendo. Use no tungue. Try the mouthpiece alone first. Do the note
5 times on the mouthpiece and listen. Try to open the sound when you put the mouthpiece in the reciever and do the same again. You may need to experiment with mouthpiece placement. Try to find a placement that gives a more open sound in the horn. It should be an airy sound on the mouthpiece alone.
/Tom[/quote]
We can "discuss it" forever and never know what actually needs to be changed. I work with what I see.
</QUOTE>
I see. Please OP could you record yourself with video. Try to videotape right infront so we can see your mouth in close-up.
/Tom
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion.[/quote]
FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.
FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="PiccoloTrombonist1" post_id="228162" time="1702861463" user_id="16763">
I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion.[/quote]
FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.
</QUOTE>
I would advice anyone to only use the ears to find the good sound. That's the best tool. It can also help to record yourself because it's not uncommon to "miss the forrest for the trees".
Use the ears of a good experienced teacher is also a good thing. He can help you to listen for certain things you might not notice yourself, but you then need to hear and fix the problem yourself. Nothing beats your own ears if you want to get better. My best advice is you pay a professional for a couple of lessons, and make shure you tell you need to work on your sound. He should then demo his own sound if anything. Then you need to listen and compare your sound to his.
Until then; Op, can you do that video?
/Tom
I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion.[/quote]
FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.
</QUOTE>
I would advice anyone to only use the ears to find the good sound. That's the best tool. It can also help to record yourself because it's not uncommon to "miss the forrest for the trees".
Use the ears of a good experienced teacher is also a good thing. He can help you to listen for certain things you might not notice yourself, but you then need to hear and fix the problem yourself. Nothing beats your own ears if you want to get better. My best advice is you pay a professional for a couple of lessons, and make shure you tell you need to work on your sound. He should then demo his own sound if anything. Then you need to listen and compare your sound to his.
Until then; Op, can you do that video?
/Tom
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
You know... From the sound I already know what it looks like. It's not hard to produce that sound. It's also not hard to produce a good sound if you know what to do.
And it's also difficult to discuss it without actually working with the person directly. Or starting from scratch. But if somebody is already playing like that, it's NOT starting from scratch, and involves changes to what's already there which can't really be simply talked about, it needs adjustments, immediate feedback and additional adjustments.
And it's also difficult to discuss it without actually working with the person directly. Or starting from scratch. But if somebody is already playing like that, it's NOT starting from scratch, and involves changes to what's already there which can't really be simply talked about, it needs adjustments, immediate feedback and additional adjustments.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
This forum - and actually, life itself - is full of people who don't take the only advice that can help them.
I have some relatives who have mastered that approach. But I probably do it too some of the time. Human nature.
When you have resources like Doug and Tom available, it would be at least worth trying what they suggest.
Some beginners never have that sound, and others learn much more quickly. It is my private theory that this is because some people learn the skill of hearing themselves more quickly, and this skill may be what produces the prodigy. But I digress.
I just tried to reproduce the cow sound. It took some experimenting but I think I got a good approximation. Here's what worked: play a phrase in the middle range (notes in the bass clef staff) but one position off, so some awful sounding false tones. That took very tight lips, a pucker, and the effort tightened the throat. Then it was hard to not get that sound for a while, so try this experiment with caution. <smiley>
I have some relatives who have mastered that approach. But I probably do it too some of the time. Human nature.
When you have resources like Doug and Tom available, it would be at least worth trying what they suggest.
Some beginners never have that sound, and others learn much more quickly. It is my private theory that this is because some people learn the skill of hearing themselves more quickly, and this skill may be what produces the prodigy. But I digress.
I just tried to reproduce the cow sound. It took some experimenting but I think I got a good approximation. Here's what worked: play a phrase in the middle range (notes in the bass clef staff) but one position off, so some awful sounding false tones. That took very tight lips, a pucker, and the effort tightened the throat. Then it was hard to not get that sound for a while, so try this experiment with caution. <smiley>
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="PiccoloTrombonist1" post_id="228162" time="1702861463" user_id="16763">
I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion.[/quote]
FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.
</QUOTE>
They way im music the words, and overtone is a note above the note that you’re playing that makes up part of the timbre. An undertone is a note under what you are playing that makes up part of the timbre (often in a bad way)
I looked into what causes undertones, and Wikipedia stated that on wind instruments, it’s caused by overblowing, which is how I reached that conclusion.[/quote]
FYI: it pays to be careful about defining just what these terms "undertone", "overtone", and related things like "partials" and "harmonics" actually mean. Unfortunately, there isn't really a clear consensus in any of them, unless you seek out a fairly specific physics context - which musicians are generally terrible at.
</QUOTE>
They way im music the words, and overtone is a note above the note that you’re playing that makes up part of the timbre. An undertone is a note under what you are playing that makes up part of the timbre (often in a bad way)
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]They way im music the words, and overtone is a note above the note that you’re playing that makes up part of the timbre. An undertone is a note under what you are playing that makes up part of the timbre (often in a bad way)[/quote]
From the examples you've posted, I haven't heard anything I'd consider an undertone . . . so yeah. I'm not even sure if a trombone is capable of this, maybe it's a synonym for "double-buzz"?
Here's a possibly related phenomenon that violinists call "subharmonics":
<YOUTUBE id="i5CSUHpK4QM">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5CSUHpK4QM</YOUTUBE>
From the examples you've posted, I haven't heard anything I'd consider an undertone . . . so yeah. I'm not even sure if a trombone is capable of this, maybe it's a synonym for "double-buzz"?
Here's a possibly related phenomenon that violinists call "subharmonics":
<YOUTUBE id="i5CSUHpK4QM">
- slideandtraps
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Dec 14, 2023
I appreciate the OP's topic of tone and another by RustBeltBass in Teaching/Learning, "Instrument=Amplifier or resonator ?" as I'm at the beginning of understanding this my self on the trombone. My first day of learning was met with belief the instrument is amplifying lip vibration similar to a Victrola horn on a phonograph amplifying an airy scratchy record.
I recall a long ago high school science class in placing a tuning fork that is barely heard at arm's length and lowered near the opening of a glass cylinder. The system of glass cylinder of an appropriately tuned length and the air at room temperature and atmospheric pressure is excited to vibrate at a very loud intensity. Now students in the class cover their ears. Not that I pursue playing which begs for one to cover their ears, but I take this experiment to be witnessing a resonating system.
Yesterday and today in practicing where I'm listening to tone, I believe the trombone as a “resonator” was below my threshold of hearing and to my ears only amplifying an early embrasure. There is a nice post here and subsequent comments about increasing air that led to this realization.
I then found a moment of experimenting with relaxing lips and exploring softness of lips against the mouthpiece to hear one moment of a markedly louder and a more pleasing tone. Was that the trombone resonating enough to hear? Just for one moment. “Wait, what was that?” and continue to explore. I listen to Jack Jenney's Stardust or Tommy Dorsey's telecine video of I'm Getting Sentimental Over You on YouTube just prior to be thinking of softness.
For the OP, as suggested here and in other topics, I plan on reaching out to Doug (hello!) when I can play a decent scale to strengthen my form and avoid ingraining not so good form and ask about mouthpieces, to encourage that.
If I was much younger I might want to know who I would be speaking with to suggest this YouTube: "Interview with Mouthpiece Maker - Doug Elliott" by Vurl Bland.
I recall a long ago high school science class in placing a tuning fork that is barely heard at arm's length and lowered near the opening of a glass cylinder. The system of glass cylinder of an appropriately tuned length and the air at room temperature and atmospheric pressure is excited to vibrate at a very loud intensity. Now students in the class cover their ears. Not that I pursue playing which begs for one to cover their ears, but I take this experiment to be witnessing a resonating system.
Yesterday and today in practicing where I'm listening to tone, I believe the trombone as a “resonator” was below my threshold of hearing and to my ears only amplifying an early embrasure. There is a nice post here and subsequent comments about increasing air that led to this realization.
I then found a moment of experimenting with relaxing lips and exploring softness of lips against the mouthpiece to hear one moment of a markedly louder and a more pleasing tone. Was that the trombone resonating enough to hear? Just for one moment. “Wait, what was that?” and continue to explore. I listen to Jack Jenney's Stardust or Tommy Dorsey's telecine video of I'm Getting Sentimental Over You on YouTube just prior to be thinking of softness.
For the OP, as suggested here and in other topics, I plan on reaching out to Doug (hello!) when I can play a decent scale to strengthen my form and avoid ingraining not so good form and ask about mouthpieces, to encourage that.
If I was much younger I might want to know who I would be speaking with to suggest this YouTube: "Interview with Mouthpiece Maker - Doug Elliott" by Vurl Bland.
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
OP,
The trombone family was designed and in use before there was any understanding of the physics of them. In the last couple hundred years some trombone makers have employed whatever science was out there to improve the instruments.
I find the physics stuff interesting and helpful from a design and analysis perspective.
I think, though, that the acoustics are more likely to lead to problems in sound concept than solutions.
This site has some very good summarizations of fairly current thought on brasswind acoustics:
[url]https://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html
I mention this site because it shows ONE "characteristic" spectrum for ONE trombone note. It also has a lot about how the horn functions.
The spectrum WILL change (as you can see and hear) with volume. It will also change with range. And it will change depending on how thoroughly you set up the vibrations inside the instrument.
None of this is, IMHO, very helpful toward your goal.
So, interesting stuff but I go along with the folks who recommend even one session with Doug!
This is no reflection on your regular teacher. NONE of my teachers (some very well known) had the kind of knowldedge Doug will share with you.
And it will be valuable for the entirety of your trombone-playing life!
The trombone family was designed and in use before there was any understanding of the physics of them. In the last couple hundred years some trombone makers have employed whatever science was out there to improve the instruments.
I find the physics stuff interesting and helpful from a design and analysis perspective.
I think, though, that the acoustics are more likely to lead to problems in sound concept than solutions.
This site has some very good summarizations of fairly current thought on brasswind acoustics:
I mention this site because it shows ONE "characteristic" spectrum for ONE trombone note. It also has a lot about how the horn functions.
The spectrum WILL change (as you can see and hear) with volume. It will also change with range. And it will change depending on how thoroughly you set up the vibrations inside the instrument.
None of this is, IMHO, very helpful toward your goal.
So, interesting stuff but I go along with the folks who recommend even one session with Doug!
This is no reflection on your regular teacher. NONE of my teachers (some very well known) had the kind of knowldedge Doug will share with you.
And it will be valuable for the entirety of your trombone-playing life!
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]From the examples you've posted, I haven't heard anything I'd consider an undertone[/quote]
I don't see any "undertones" in a frequency analysis of the sample.
I don't see any "undertones" in a frequency analysis of the sample.
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.[/quote]
Don't forget, though, that you can't even start to learn where the "right" positions are until you can slot solid pitches into wherever the slide happens to be. If you're not slotting, and on top of that your slide is not in the right place for the note you want to play, then you will have the trouble that your recording is showing.
Don't forget, though, that you can't even start to learn where the "right" positions are until you can slot solid pitches into wherever the slide happens to be. If you're not slotting, and on top of that your slide is not in the right place for the note you want to play, then you will have the trouble that your recording is showing.
- Mr412
- Posts: 207
- Joined: May 20, 2022
I used to have the same tone problem as the OP, I think. My instructor caught it and helped me fix it. I was simply using too much tension (not to be confused with mpc pressure on the chops) in my embouchure when playing notes from Bb on the staff, down to the bottom. My lip buzz was way too "hard" and it caused my tone to have a "too much core" sound - buzzy, if you will. What worked well for the higher notes killed my lower notes. Simple mental concept to fix, but it took me three months to retrain my embouchure and not encounter split tones. I just had to softly work my way down, stopping when the sound "broke" and slowly building up my dynamic. Opened my sound up wonderfully in the end, not only on lower notes, but every where as well.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.[/quote]
Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.
But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?
Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.
But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?
- PiccoloTrombonist1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jun 30, 2023
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="PiccoloTrombonist1" post_id="228418" time="1703033594" user_id="16763">
After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.[/quote]
Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.
But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?
</QUOTE>
Lip bends make notes sound bad because you are arguing with what the brass wants to do. The way I’m working on that is by 1.) trying to play with good pitch, even when I’m out of tune (it’s surprisingly hard) and 2.) trying to work on my slide accuracy & confidence.
After consulting in private lessons, my issues with tone actually happened to be due to my issues with intonation in general. I would slide into the wrong position, but then lip bend up or down to play the right note, completely subconsciously.[/quote]
Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.
But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?
</QUOTE>
Lip bends make notes sound bad because you are arguing with what the brass wants to do. The way I’m working on that is by 1.) trying to play with good pitch, even when I’m out of tune (it’s surprisingly hard) and 2.) trying to work on my slide accuracy & confidence.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="228462" time="1703085539" user_id="211">
Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.
But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?[/quote]
Lip bends make notes sound bad because you are arguing with what the brass wants to do. The way I’m working on that is by 1.) trying to play with good pitch, even when I’m out of tune (it’s surprisingly hard) and 2.) trying to work on my slide accuracy & confidence.
</QUOTE>
Bold phrase doesn't compute. You can't have good pitch (a term that means you play in tune) while being out of tune.
You need to work on slotting partials. That recording you sent is unfocused sound, and not slotted at all. Just work on getting a strong sound and don't worry about where the slide is, just slot something. Once you can do that, start glissing around, up and down, while keeping a strong, slotted sound. That is how you will find where the positions are.
You will be unable to find, accurately, where the slide needs to go if you aren't slotting any sound with where the horn wants to vibrate at first. This is a tough lesson to learn without someone guiding you through it, but you can save yourself a lot of hassle and wasted effort if you just forget about the slide at first, put the slide lock on, turn off your tuner, and just focus on getting the absolute best sound you can on the first few partials. Then when you can make a nice sound, slowly move on to starting the note in a given partial, and glissing down and back up while keeping it slotted and letting the horn dictate the pitch.
Trying to learn to slot notes and accurately place the slide at the same time when you are new is like learning to put a saddle on a horse while you are already riding it bareback, and simultaneously not knowing how to ride a horse to begin with. Somehow most of us trombonists learned eventually how to do it, but it would have been a lot easier of we were taught how to put the saddle on first and how to get up into it before riding around on the horse.
Wait, my guess was correct? I didn't expect that.
But you're only halfway there. What about a lip bend makes a tone bad, and how do you not do that?[/quote]
Lip bends make notes sound bad because you are arguing with what the brass wants to do. The way I’m working on that is by 1.) trying to play with good pitch, even when I’m out of tune (it’s surprisingly hard) and 2.) trying to work on my slide accuracy & confidence.
</QUOTE>
Bold phrase doesn't compute. You can't have good pitch (a term that means you play in tune) while being out of tune.
You need to work on slotting partials. That recording you sent is unfocused sound, and not slotted at all. Just work on getting a strong sound and don't worry about where the slide is, just slot something. Once you can do that, start glissing around, up and down, while keeping a strong, slotted sound. That is how you will find where the positions are.
You will be unable to find, accurately, where the slide needs to go if you aren't slotting any sound with where the horn wants to vibrate at first. This is a tough lesson to learn without someone guiding you through it, but you can save yourself a lot of hassle and wasted effort if you just forget about the slide at first, put the slide lock on, turn off your tuner, and just focus on getting the absolute best sound you can on the first few partials. Then when you can make a nice sound, slowly move on to starting the note in a given partial, and glissing down and back up while keeping it slotted and letting the horn dictate the pitch.
Trying to learn to slot notes and accurately place the slide at the same time when you are new is like learning to put a saddle on a horse while you are already riding it bareback, and simultaneously not knowing how to ride a horse to begin with. Somehow most of us trombonists learned eventually how to do it, but it would have been a lot easier of we were taught how to put the saddle on first and how to get up into it before riding around on the horse.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Trying to learn to slot notes and accurately place the slide at the same time when you are new is like learning to put a saddle on a horse while you are already riding it bareback, and simultaneously not knowing how to ride a horse to begin with. Somehow most of us trombonists learned eventually how to do it, but it would have been a lot easier of we were taught how to put the saddle on first and how to get up into it before riding around on the horse.[/quote]
Good and fun analogy :good:
/Tom
Good and fun analogy :good:
/Tom
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
Anybode can make the cow sound, just press the lips together and use a very high air pressure. To make a trombone sound, the lips should touch just very lightly, the air flow should be faster but with lower air pressure. I do know that this info is not enough to make the good sound happen, but a good part of it.
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
Some semantics. Lip bends and false tones does not include pressing the lips together.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Olofson"]Some semantics. Lip bends and false tones does not include pressing the lips together.[/quote]
They should not, not when done correctly.
But it sounded like he was doing it that way. That's why I said he had only half the problem.
They should not, not when done correctly.
But it sounded like he was doing it that way. That's why I said he had only half the problem.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="PiccoloTrombonist1"]...i have bad sound mixed with red sound. My goal would be yellow sound though, so I’m trying to experiment with other embouchure shapes[/quote]
It's stuff like this that gets you accused of being a simulation. You followed a metaphorical example too literally. "Color" sounds isn't a useful analogy. There is no set comparison for red or yellow to a particular type of sound. Brown of course just sounds like $#!+.
In the off chance that you're a real boy, your mouth is too closed up, which is why you can't get air through it. Lower the jaw slightly, flatten the tongue against the bottom of your mouth, don't puff the cheeks. Feel like the air is a solid tube that comes up from your lungs - open the airway to let it come through to press against the back of the embouchure.
It's stuff like this that gets you accused of being a simulation. You followed a metaphorical example too literally. "Color" sounds isn't a useful analogy. There is no set comparison for red or yellow to a particular type of sound. Brown of course just sounds like $#!+.
In the off chance that you're a real boy, your mouth is too closed up, which is why you can't get air through it. Lower the jaw slightly, flatten the tongue against the bottom of your mouth, don't puff the cheeks. Feel like the air is a solid tube that comes up from your lungs - open the airway to let it come through to press against the back of the embouchure.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
This is like trying to teach someone to whistle after listening to his attempt at whistling and then sending him letters giving advice in a language/jargon/terminology he doesn't understand or embrace while he insists on using his own vague and largely unintelligible jargon to describe his goal and how he hasn't achieved it.
So it's progressed exactly as should be expected, despite the best efforts of a number of people to be helpful. Meanwhile, it remains unclear why the aspiring whistler hasn't simply found someone who will sit with him for about 15 minutes and clear up the fairly simple problem he's having -- rather than continuing to use social media to get some magic textual description that he'll understand and be able to employ (which is what he seems to be continually requesting).
Perhaps this is merely a symptom of a reliance on the easy accessibility of social media in favor of direct interaction, and a belief of what can be accomplished there. It's not so much that the communication is taking place in text rather than voice (though that isn't helping in this case), but that there's no teaching/learning (including a try/correct loop) taking place -- and can't be under these circumstances. So I think that the futility of this exercise has been well demonstrated at this point, and I've totally lost interest (or hope) in seeing how it turns out. :roll: Way past the appropriate time for hitting the "unsubscribe" button.
So it's progressed exactly as should be expected, despite the best efforts of a number of people to be helpful. Meanwhile, it remains unclear why the aspiring whistler hasn't simply found someone who will sit with him for about 15 minutes and clear up the fairly simple problem he's having -- rather than continuing to use social media to get some magic textual description that he'll understand and be able to employ (which is what he seems to be continually requesting).
Perhaps this is merely a symptom of a reliance on the easy accessibility of social media in favor of direct interaction, and a belief of what can be accomplished there. It's not so much that the communication is taking place in text rather than voice (though that isn't helping in this case), but that there's no teaching/learning (including a try/correct loop) taking place -- and can't be under these circumstances. So I think that the futility of this exercise has been well demonstrated at this point, and I've totally lost interest (or hope) in seeing how it turns out. :roll: Way past the appropriate time for hitting the "unsubscribe" button.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Exactly
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="PiccoloTrombonist1" post_id="228020" time="1702755722" user_id="16763">
...i have bad sound mixed with red sound. My goal would be yellow sound though, so I’m trying to experiment with other embouchure shapes[/quote]
It's stuff like this that gets you accused of being a simulation. You followed a metaphorical example too literally. "Color" sounds isn't a useful analogy. There is no set comparison for red or yellow to a particular type of sound. Brown of course just sounds like $#!+.
</QUOTE>
Yes, this is rather weird. After I've spent time to read what the OP has written in other theads I think I need to see that video.
/Tom
...i have bad sound mixed with red sound. My goal would be yellow sound though, so I’m trying to experiment with other embouchure shapes[/quote]
It's stuff like this that gets you accused of being a simulation. You followed a metaphorical example too literally. "Color" sounds isn't a useful analogy. There is no set comparison for red or yellow to a particular type of sound. Brown of course just sounds like $#!+.
</QUOTE>
Yes, this is rather weird. After I've spent time to read what the OP has written in other theads I think I need to see that video.
/Tom
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
There have been a few new users that all use the same too smart/too dumb writing style and syntax lately. Like wildly specific about some areas and technical terms but really off base on others that should go hand in hand. All looking for advice, all around the same age, but writing similarly to each other and differently than most any other young person I've talked with in the last few years.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
Well now, it keeps coming back to the same thing. As a beginner…don’t overcomplicate the crap out of it…find someone to learn from…and practice good habits when they have been learned.
Maybe I’m just a simpleton…or came from a different era, but I sure as heck wasn’t thinking about all this stuff when I started, I just wanted to get a good sound. So many people here have offered so much good advice, advice I would have loved to have had when I started. I think it’s time to just stop the analysis and get to the playing part.
Down to brass tacks though…the over complicated and under whelming language linked together does sound a bit suspicious. It just doesn’t seem to blend right. I think harrisonreed may have called it from the start…
Maybe I’m just a simpleton…or came from a different era, but I sure as heck wasn’t thinking about all this stuff when I started, I just wanted to get a good sound. So many people here have offered so much good advice, advice I would have loved to have had when I started. I think it’s time to just stop the analysis and get to the playing part.
Down to brass tacks though…the over complicated and under whelming language linked together does sound a bit suspicious. It just doesn’t seem to blend right. I think harrisonreed may have called it from the start…