Euphonium cup mutes
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Who knew they were a thing?
My brass band will be doing a piece at NABBA that requires cup mutes in the two euphonium parts. Some searching on line revealed the H&B 166 cup (which is labeled as a "baritone" cup mute), a Wallace Euph cup, and a Schlipf Combi mute.
On to my questions:
<LIST type="1.">[list=1.] [*]Does the H&B fit real (i.e., Besson, Adams, etc.) euphs</LIST>
<LIST type="2.">[list=2.] [*]Does anyone have any experience with either the Wallace or Schlipf mutes? </LIST>
<LIST type="3.">[list=3.] [*]Any opinions on Euphonium cups generally?</LIST>
My brass band will be doing a piece at NABBA that requires cup mutes in the two euphonium parts. Some searching on line revealed the H&B 166 cup (which is labeled as a "baritone" cup mute), a Wallace Euph cup, and a Schlipf Combi mute.
On to my questions:
<LIST type="1.">
<LIST type="2.">
<LIST type="3.">
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Maybe Dave Werden's Euphonium-Tuba Forum would be a more rewarding place to post these questions.
[url]https://www.dwerden.com/forum/forum.php
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
I've never seen or heard a euphonium cup mute. But I still have opinions.
Most of the time, when cup (and harmon) mutes are called for, it is across the whole brass section - the goal is a tonal change across the whole thing, not targeted at you. So let the cornets mute and change the sound; you can hide your tone inside theirs.
When I was in high school, the director passed out a piece that called for (trombone) bucket mute. So I went out and bought one. Then in the following rehearsal, he tells us to ignore the marking. So I've had an unused mute hanging around, taking up space for 30 years.
I imagine all you really need is to *look* like you're using a cup mute. Maybe build something so you can make a good show of inserting it when the time comes.
Most of the time, when cup (and harmon) mutes are called for, it is across the whole brass section - the goal is a tonal change across the whole thing, not targeted at you. So let the cornets mute and change the sound; you can hide your tone inside theirs.
When I was in high school, the director passed out a piece that called for (trombone) bucket mute. So I went out and bought one. Then in the following rehearsal, he tells us to ignore the marking. So I've had an unused mute hanging around, taking up space for 30 years.
I imagine all you really need is to *look* like you're using a cup mute. Maybe build something so you can make a good show of inserting it when the time comes.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]Maybe Dave Werden's Euphonium-Tuba Forum would be a more rewarding place to post these questions.
[url]https://www.dwerden.com/forum/forum.php[/quote]
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
And while you're there, feel free to update his list.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthrea ... onium-Mute">https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread.php/25184-Band-or-Orchestra-Pieces-that-Require-a-Euphonium-Mute</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthrea ... onium-Mute">https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread.php/25184-Band-or-Orchestra-Pieces-that-Require-a-Euphonium-Mute</LINK_TEXT>
- marccromme
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
I have no experience with other brands, but the Wallace euph cup mute works decent on Yamaha, Sovereign or similar. My firmer Brass Band had a set, and they can be tunes to different bells without need to shave corks.
- RossM
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Jan 27, 2022
I’ve not played those, but I’ve only heard bad things about the H&B, and good about the Schlipf. Mike McLean makes a great one too, works well in my Sovereign.
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Only trombone mute I have is a Bach straight. Discussing euph and tuba mutes with my tuba buddy, concluded for my playing a euph mute not worth the price. He noted he has seen water bottles used in euphs, and he used a carpet remnant on top of his bell for a tuba mute one time…only time he ever needed one for his tuba.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I would hazard the guess that 99% of euph players never see a mute in person and certainly have never used one -- aside, possibly, for a "practice mute" for people who live in deplorable conditions where they don't feel free to practice their art. It's a pretty academic gimic. Pretty much the same is true for tuba mutes, though they seem to be a wee bit more frequently encountered.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
I'd take it a step further, and suggest it is irresponsible for a composer or publisher to call for a euph cup mute.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]I'd take it a step further, and suggest it is irresponsible for a composer or publisher to call for a euph cup mute.[/quote]
And kill some young composer's academic career by constraining his creativity? So harsh.
And kill some young composer's academic career by constraining his creativity? So harsh.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]I've never seen or heard a euphonium cup mute. But I still have opinions.
I imagine all you really need is to *look* like you're using a cup mute. Maybe build something so you can make a good show of inserting it when the time comes.[/quote]
I e-mailed Steve Trapani to ask if he is producing euphonium mutes (particularly cups). He said much the same thing. He also said that the best tuba mute is the Balu, which hardly changes the timbre at all--his opinion is that tuba mutes (which I took to include euph mutes) are more for show than timbre changes. He suggested getting the H&B straight and "arts and crafting" it to make it look like a cup.
But in the context of a contest where the judges are behind a screen there is no visual effect.
I agree that composers who write for euphonium cups (and even more, tuba cups) should be severely disciplined.
I imagine all you really need is to *look* like you're using a cup mute. Maybe build something so you can make a good show of inserting it when the time comes.[/quote]
I e-mailed Steve Trapani to ask if he is producing euphonium mutes (particularly cups). He said much the same thing. He also said that the best tuba mute is the Balu, which hardly changes the timbre at all--his opinion is that tuba mutes (which I took to include euph mutes) are more for show than timbre changes. He suggested getting the H&B straight and "arts and crafting" it to make it look like a cup.
But in the context of a contest where the judges are behind a screen there is no visual effect.
I agree that composers who write for euphonium cups (and even more, tuba cups) should be severely disciplined.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Tuba mutes can also provide for some level of audience distraction from an otherwise tedious or overly theoretical display of virtuosity by providing a degree of comic relief. I've sat through some tuba recitals that were definitely enhanced by the gymnastics of inserting, removing, and re-inserting a full-size tuba mute (think moderately sized waste basket) in a full size tuba. The effect on an audience should not be underestimated.
- Mamaposaune
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sep 22, 2018
The O.P. is asking because he will be performing in the NABBA competition. The judges will be behind a black screen but they know what to listen for and a poor quality, or wrong, mute will cost their band points. (I participated in the competition for about 10 years)
To the OP, I would try to get in contact with a competition band from the U.K., preferably one who has competed on your piece,, and see what their recommendations are.
[quote="AtomicClock"]I've never seen or heard a euphonium cup mute. But I still have opinions.
Most of the time, when cup (and harmon) mutes are called for, it is across the whole brass section - the goal is a tonal change across the whole thing, not targeted at you. So let the cornets mute and change the sound; you can hide your tone inside theirs.
When I was in high school, the director passed out a piece that called for (trombone) bucket mute. So I went out and bought one. Then in the following rehearsal, he tells us to ignore the marking. So I've had an unused mute hanging around, taking up space for 30 years.
I imagine all you really need is to *look* like you're using a cup mute. Maybe build something so you can make a good show of inserting it when the time comes.[/quote]
To the OP, I would try to get in contact with a competition band from the U.K., preferably one who has competed on your piece,, and see what their recommendations are.
[quote="AtomicClock"]I've never seen or heard a euphonium cup mute. But I still have opinions.
Most of the time, when cup (and harmon) mutes are called for, it is across the whole brass section - the goal is a tonal change across the whole thing, not targeted at you. So let the cornets mute and change the sound; you can hide your tone inside theirs.
When I was in high school, the director passed out a piece that called for (trombone) bucket mute. So I went out and bought one. Then in the following rehearsal, he tells us to ignore the marking. So I've had an unused mute hanging around, taking up space for 30 years.
I imagine all you really need is to *look* like you're using a cup mute. Maybe build something so you can make a good show of inserting it when the time comes.[/quote]
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="Dennis"]He suggested getting the H&B straight and "arts and crafting" it to make it look like a cup.[/quote]
The H&B red-on-white color scheme will really sell it.
I confess I don't know anything about NABBA competition rules. Or British ones, either. (Heck, I don't even know their acronym!)
The H&B red-on-white color scheme will really sell it.
But in the context of a contest where the judges are behind a screen there is no visual effect.
I confess I don't know anything about NABBA competition rules. Or British ones, either. (Heck, I don't even know their acronym!)
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
NABBA is North American Brass Band Association. Brass Bands are very common in Britain and Commonwealth nations as well as Europe. Brass Band competitions generally include a Test Piece with a high degree of difficulty, sometimes achieved with rather exotic effects or techniques.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
See, I even kinda like Euph and tuba mutes at times. Lots of great Brass Band lit that uses them. Sparke does a great job of using them to set an effect.
But the dismissive wanking motion I made when I read Euph CUP mute could not be contained. What’s the piece? I want to know who I should make fun of if I ever get the chance. (Don’t think that I won’t, I told Ray Farr his orchestration on a section trombone lick was insane)
Cheers,
Andy
But the dismissive wanking motion I made when I read Euph CUP mute could not be contained. What’s the piece? I want to know who I should make fun of if I ever get the chance. (Don’t think that I won’t, I told Ray Farr his orchestration on a section trombone lick was insane)
Cheers,
Andy
- marccromme
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="Dennis"]My brass band will be doing a piece at NABBA that requires cup mutes in the two euphonium parts.[/quote]
In Denmark all Brass Bands at the national competitions use aluminium cup and straight mutes for euphonium and trombones. as these seem to be the accepted British sound concept.
The Band has a complete set of Wallace cups for all low brass, including euph, trombones and tubas. Wallace worked just fine for euphs of standard size, Besson or Yamaha.
Dennis Wick aluminium cup and straight mutes are also used at DK Brass Band competitions. But I don't think the DW ALU cup mute is produced for euph, only available for trombones.
Cardbord fiber H&B cup mutes. .. or straight mutes, by the way. .. don't have the expected sound concept in a British style Brass Band competition test piece, and your Band will probably loose valuable points.
In Denmark all Brass Bands at the national competitions use aluminium cup and straight mutes for euphonium and trombones. as these seem to be the accepted British sound concept.
The Band has a complete set of Wallace cups for all low brass, including euph, trombones and tubas. Wallace worked just fine for euphs of standard size, Besson or Yamaha.
Dennis Wick aluminium cup and straight mutes are also used at DK Brass Band competitions. But I don't think the DW ALU cup mute is produced for euph, only available for trombones.
Cardbord fiber H&B cup mutes. .. or straight mutes, by the way. .. don't have the expected sound concept in a British style Brass Band competition test piece, and your Band will probably loose valuable points.
- RobTheWriter
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Dec 27, 2023
Tried to find the dimensions for the H&B 166, but could only find this site [url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.target.com/p/humes-berg-166 ... A-81687965">https://www.target.com/p/humes-berg-166-stonelined-series-upright-bell-baritone-horn-and-euphonium-cup-mute-166-cup-mute/-/A-81687965</LINK_TEXT> which gives a width of 10.25 inches. Not sure I believe this... It does look as though the cup part would deep inside the bell before the corks engage...
As others have mentioned, cup mutes are used in modern pieces for British brass bands. Here's a post from a British Euphonium player[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.markglovermusic.co.uk/post/ ... ould-avoid">https://www.markglovermusic.co.uk/post/the-harmonious-hush-exploring-my-favourite-and-best-euphonium-mutes-and-which-you-should-avoid</LINK_TEXT>. Mentions the Schlipf Combi Mute, and the Peter Gane cup mute (fibre).
The Peter Gane website is down for maintenance. Here's a link to the Peter Gane PG041 cup mute from elsewhere[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.adams-music.com/en/bariton- ... gane_pg041">https://www.adams-music.com/en/bariton-euphonium/euphonium_mutes/peter_gane_pg041</LINK_TEXT>. BTW Peter is an ex-pro trombonist (LSO and Philip Jones Brass) and teacher.
You didn't mention Mike McLean Mutes. He produces fibre glass mutes and is associated with the Black Dyke band
He has two cup mutes (one with a detachable cup) shown here[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.mikemcleanmutes.co.uk/produ ... 8242187500">https://www.mikemcleanmutes.co.uk/product-category/euphonium/?doing_wp_cron=1703761313.2719449996948242187500</LINK_TEXT>.
The Wallace cup mute is made from aluminium ([url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.bestmutes.com/product/muirh ... cba1185463">https://www.bestmutes.com/product/muirhead-wallace-491-euphonium-mute/?v=79cba1185463</LINK_TEXT>). The company is associated with Tredegar Town Band (who are based about 10 miles from my home town in South Wales :).
And to complete the list here's a link to the Schlipf mute[url]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.tuba-mute.com/euphonium-mut ... aight-cup/">https://www.tuba-mute.com/euphonium-mutes/combi-mute-sir-straight-cup/</LINK_TEXT>.
Thoughts on Euphonium mutes? Bring them on (but don't ask me to help you carry them...)
As others have mentioned, cup mutes are used in modern pieces for British brass bands. Here's a post from a British Euphonium player
The Peter Gane website is down for maintenance. Here's a link to the Peter Gane PG041 cup mute from elsewhere
You didn't mention Mike McLean Mutes. He produces fibre glass mutes and is associated with the Black Dyke band
He has two cup mutes (one with a detachable cup) shown here
The Wallace cup mute is made from aluminium (
And to complete the list here's a link to the Schlipf mute
Thoughts on Euphonium mutes? Bring them on (but don't ask me to help you carry them...)
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I'll try this again - my previous response ended up disappearing when I hit send.
Brass band is a serious musical format that has really caught on in many parts of the world in the last number of years, with serious works being composed for the genre. I don't think it's all that out of the question for someone to explore more exotic mutes for an instrument like the euphonium in that context. A lot of new orchestral works are asking for more than just the usual straight mute too. I only object when it seems like the composer doesn't know how to use it well, like whisper mutes while the rest of the band/orchestra is forte or above (yes, I've seen this).
To the OP, be careful with H&B mutes, because some are made for bell-front instruments, and many are designed for smaller bore American-style baritones (maybe in between the size of a British baritone and a euphonium). Also, a lot of their mutes don't play well in the lower register.
I think the toughest thing will be finding a mute readily available - it's not something that is in stock in your local music store. Good luck!
Jim Scott
Brass band is a serious musical format that has really caught on in many parts of the world in the last number of years, with serious works being composed for the genre. I don't think it's all that out of the question for someone to explore more exotic mutes for an instrument like the euphonium in that context. A lot of new orchestral works are asking for more than just the usual straight mute too. I only object when it seems like the composer doesn't know how to use it well, like whisper mutes while the rest of the band/orchestra is forte or above (yes, I've seen this).
To the OP, be careful with H&B mutes, because some are made for bell-front instruments, and many are designed for smaller bore American-style baritones (maybe in between the size of a British baritone and a euphonium). Also, a lot of their mutes don't play well in the lower register.
I think the toughest thing will be finding a mute readily available - it's not something that is in stock in your local music store. Good luck!
Jim Scott
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I like that one of the keys to winning the British brass band competition is if you can source a Euph/Tuba cup mute or not.
"Yeah, hullo Bill, you all right? This is Jerry from the euph cup mute factory. Listen, ehm, can you make sure the commissioned piece has, ehhhm, three different Euph parts, and tuba 1 and 2. And, uhm, listen, Bill? Right, so we're gonna need you to put all five of them on cup mute, all at, ehm, the same time, all right? Yes? Oh, yes, a cup muted chorale section, yes perrrfect. Oh? No no, just a couple measures is fine. Ideally, yeah, ideally .... ideally it would just be for one note because, uhh, yeah who wants to hear cup muted euphonium for longer than that, eh Bill? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you too, Bill, cheers!"
"Yeah, hullo Bill, you all right? This is Jerry from the euph cup mute factory. Listen, ehm, can you make sure the commissioned piece has, ehhhm, three different Euph parts, and tuba 1 and 2. And, uhm, listen, Bill? Right, so we're gonna need you to put all five of them on cup mute, all at, ehm, the same time, all right? Yes? Oh, yes, a cup muted chorale section, yes perrrfect. Oh? No no, just a couple measures is fine. Ideally, yeah, ideally .... ideally it would just be for one note because, uhh, yeah who wants to hear cup muted euphonium for longer than that, eh Bill? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you too, Bill, cheers!"
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I like that one of the keys to winning the British brass band competition is if you can source a Euph/Tuba cup mute or not.
[/quote]
Yup, I can only imagine the world supply of euphonium cup mutes is going to be bought up in the next few months.
[/quote]
Yup, I can only imagine the world supply of euphonium cup mutes is going to be bought up in the next few months.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="harrisonreed"]"Yeah, hullo Bill, you all right? This is Jerry from the euph cup mute factory.[/quote]
clipboard scoring ftw
"Really enjoyed your rhythmic accuracy and clarity, Luciano. See you next year!"
clipboard scoring ftw
"Really enjoyed your rhythmic accuracy and clarity, Luciano. See you next year!"
- StephenK
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
Seems like they are becoming standard for contesting British Brass Bands. My amateur orchestra recently had a piece with muted tuba recently, not for the first time. Our tubist borrowed one from his brass band, although he also works for a local brass/wind supplier.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="229166" time="1703798415" user_id="3642">
"Yeah, hullo Bill, you all right? This is Jerry from the euph cup mute factory.[/quote]
clipboard scoring ftw
"Really enjoyed your rhythmic accuracy and clarity, Luciano. See you next year!"
</QUOTE>
*Looks further down the clipboard*
"Required: Jerry's tuba family cup mutes, or equivalent. Hmmm, 'no'. Comment: only had one borrowed euphonium cup mute on stage. Disqualified for consideration"
"Yeah, hullo Bill, you all right? This is Jerry from the euph cup mute factory.[/quote]
clipboard scoring ftw
"Really enjoyed your rhythmic accuracy and clarity, Luciano. See you next year!"
</QUOTE>
*Looks further down the clipboard*
"Required: Jerry's tuba family cup mutes, or equivalent. Hmmm, 'no'. Comment: only had one borrowed euphonium cup mute on stage. Disqualified for consideration"
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]And while you're there, feel free to update his list.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthrea ... onium-Mute">https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread.php/25184-Band-or-Orchestra-Pieces-that-Require-a-Euphonium-Mute</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
That's hilarious, of course Aho No. 9 and Maslanka 4 would need obscure mutes for the euphoniums. I didn't realize what the poor guys were going through when we did Maslanka, which even has the tubas use something other than a straight mute.
Our awesome tuba player made his by adapting a different mute with cardboard. I had no idea it was because such a mute basically did not exist outside that short list, which includes straight mutes.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthrea ... onium-Mute">https://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread.php/25184-Band-or-Orchestra-Pieces-that-Require-a-Euphonium-Mute</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
That's hilarious, of course Aho No. 9 and Maslanka 4 would need obscure mutes for the euphoniums. I didn't realize what the poor guys were going through when we did Maslanka, which even has the tubas use something other than a straight mute.
Our awesome tuba player made his by adapting a different mute with cardboard. I had no idea it was because such a mute basically did not exist outside that short list, which includes straight mutes.
- Dennis
- Posts: 404
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]"Required: Jerry's tuba family cup mutes, or equivalent. Hmmm, 'no'. Comment: only had one borrowed euphonium cup mute on stage. Disqualified for consideration"[/quote]
A long time ago, before I started keeping my lifetime list with notes on pieces, I played a French piece that called for, Sourdine "Ray Robinson". I had to ask the director, who told me, "Fiber mute. Your Humes and Berg is fine."
FTR, judges at NABBA are behind a screen, so they won't be able to see what mutes are being used. On the other hand, they can certainly hear, and so some choices would be inappropriate (e.g., second trombone uses a Tom Crown cup mute while the rest of the section uses Wicks). If a judge thinks the muted timbre is inappropriate, she won't hesitate to say so.
A long time ago, before I started keeping my lifetime list with notes on pieces, I played a French piece that called for, Sourdine "Ray Robinson". I had to ask the director, who told me, "Fiber mute. Your Humes and Berg is fine."
FTR, judges at NABBA are behind a screen, so they won't be able to see what mutes are being used. On the other hand, they can certainly hear, and so some choices would be inappropriate (e.g., second trombone uses a Tom Crown cup mute while the rest of the section uses Wicks). If a judge thinks the muted timbre is inappropriate, she won't hesitate to say so.
- mbtrombone
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Jan 29, 2019
So I have had to play euphonium at a performance at some band directors convention and we needed cup and straight mutes for euph. The school bought them and kept them for the next time. Maybe have the band buy them and keep them? Sounds like the piece will keep coming back every now and then. Then you can get the one that is best maybe?
The silly part for me was the euphoniums matched with trumcors and h&b cups but the rest of the low brass and trumpets used a mix of metal and fiber mutes from every single maker. I don’t blame them I always use a trumcor lyric as my bass trombone straight mute unless someone says it has to be metal and then I use a free JoRal I got. It has to do with low and high range response from the mute for me. Middle seems fine on most mutes.
The silly part for me was the euphoniums matched with trumcors and h&b cups but the rest of the low brass and trumpets used a mix of metal and fiber mutes from every single maker. I don’t blame them I always use a trumcor lyric as my bass trombone straight mute unless someone says it has to be metal and then I use a free JoRal I got. It has to do with low and high range response from the mute for me. Middle seems fine on most mutes.