Reminder: align your valves!
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I bought a corporation Bach 50B2 recently (I can't help it... I think this is my 6th one). The plan is for it to get CR or Olsen rotors and an open wrap.
Of course, it's still a working instrument as is, so I played it a bit the other day. I can tell there's promise... it sounds pretty good, but boy howdy does it play badly through the valves. Pedals are almost non-existent, just not a fun time.
Benn reminds me to align the valves- someone has just replaced all the bumpers and not corrected them at all. With my boroscope, I can see the F valve is horrendously out of alignment when activated. The Eb valve is pretty much the same.
After some swearing and Xacto knife usage, :horror:
The horn plays now! Much more even, great sound, really quite good in some ways. Not enough to keep it as is, but a much better instrument.
Align those valves- don't let bumpers decide how good your instrument is!
Of course, it's still a working instrument as is, so I played it a bit the other day. I can tell there's promise... it sounds pretty good, but boy howdy does it play badly through the valves. Pedals are almost non-existent, just not a fun time.
Benn reminds me to align the valves- someone has just replaced all the bumpers and not corrected them at all. With my boroscope, I can see the F valve is horrendously out of alignment when activated. The Eb valve is pretty much the same.
After some swearing and Xacto knife usage, :horror:
The horn plays now! Much more even, great sound, really quite good in some ways. Not enough to keep it as is, but a much better instrument.
Align those valves- don't let bumpers decide how good your instrument is!
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
[quote="Burgerbob"]
After some swearing and Xacto knife usage, :horror:
The horn plays now! Much more even, great sound, really quite good in some ways. Not enough to keep it as is, but a much better instrument.
Align those valves- don't let bumpers decide how good your instrument is![/quote]
Now that’s hilarious! Definitely a second on the Xacto knife usage…so tedious it can be!
I picked up a 50B2 not too long ago which is pending some work to get it up and running. I think your videos kinda had me settle on that instrument. Good luck with the ‘new’ horn, always curious to see what you come up with on these!
After some swearing and Xacto knife usage, :horror:
The horn plays now! Much more even, great sound, really quite good in some ways. Not enough to keep it as is, but a much better instrument.
Align those valves- don't let bumpers decide how good your instrument is![/quote]
Now that’s hilarious! Definitely a second on the Xacto knife usage…so tedious it can be!
I picked up a 50B2 not too long ago which is pending some work to get it up and running. I think your videos kinda had me settle on that instrument. Good luck with the ‘new’ horn, always curious to see what you come up with on these!
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
Sounds like this would be a helpful video. If only we knew a Youtube content creator...
- ScottZigler
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Jul 19, 2023
What scope are you using for this? I've been thinking about getting something to check valve alignment and look for blobs of solder inside the instruments.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I have a wifi one that I use with my iPad. Neat setup and it was cheap.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
Aren't there markings on the valves to indicate alignment?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="norbie2018"]Aren't there markings on the valves to indicate alignment?[/quote]
Yes... I don't personally trust those, and the inside of the valve doesn't lie!
Yes... I don't personally trust those, and the inside of the valve doesn't lie!
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
2nd on that one…….don’t trust the witness marks. I had a Bach 50B3 in which the marks were off by about 35-40 degrees. I had to drill and tap new holes for the cork plate. Once everything was aligned correctly, the horn played rather well.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]I have a wifi one that I use with my iPad. Neat setup and it was cheap.[/quote]
I'm curious about this ... for a couple of reasons ...
I've had a couple of these Ebay scopes and have used them for various activities. The most productive one is examining the combustion chambers of my black powder rifles because that's a straight shot down the barrel -- and the result can be "Uh, how come I see the end of a machine screw protruding into the chamber?" (Fixed that.) Also, the 'scope can be useful in certain plumbing or electrical wiring activities I won't go into here.
But in the case of my brass musical instruments, the scope hasn't proved to be of much value (except in a couple of cases of eyeballing the inside of a water valve nipple). Sometimes, on a tuba with large enough bore, you can get it to an advantageous position, but in most cases where you want to see something like alignment of piston valves, it doesn't come close to going around the corner of the knuckle on the piston casing. And on a euph it's even worse. So not much value there. For my piston instruments, I've made a little tool that allows me to measure where the inside cylinder ports are and then align the piston correctly. It's a bit of a pain, but it works.
On my (independent) double valve bass, I don't need it. The front rotor is quite easily seen from the slide tenon side, and the rear rotor is a straight shot from the tuning crook side. So the endoscope doesn't provide much utility there. (By the way, on my cheesy Schiller bass trombone, the witness marks are right on the money -- I was shocked. The bumper alignment is right on the edge. :roll: )
So I'm wondering what benefit you get out of the 'scope for trombone valves. I guess it might be of benefit on a dependent valve setup? But then I wonder about getting it around the knuckle corners. I keep thinking I should throw some more money at a better (smaller, more flexible) 'scope, but just have never done that.
I'm curious about this ... for a couple of reasons ...
I've had a couple of these Ebay scopes and have used them for various activities. The most productive one is examining the combustion chambers of my black powder rifles because that's a straight shot down the barrel -- and the result can be "Uh, how come I see the end of a machine screw protruding into the chamber?" (Fixed that.) Also, the 'scope can be useful in certain plumbing or electrical wiring activities I won't go into here.
But in the case of my brass musical instruments, the scope hasn't proved to be of much value (except in a couple of cases of eyeballing the inside of a water valve nipple). Sometimes, on a tuba with large enough bore, you can get it to an advantageous position, but in most cases where you want to see something like alignment of piston valves, it doesn't come close to going around the corner of the knuckle on the piston casing. And on a euph it's even worse. So not much value there. For my piston instruments, I've made a little tool that allows me to measure where the inside cylinder ports are and then align the piston correctly. It's a bit of a pain, but it works.
On my (independent) double valve bass, I don't need it. The front rotor is quite easily seen from the slide tenon side, and the rear rotor is a straight shot from the tuning crook side. So the endoscope doesn't provide much utility there. (By the way, on my cheesy Schiller bass trombone, the witness marks are right on the money -- I was shocked. The bumper alignment is right on the edge. :roll: )
So I'm wondering what benefit you get out of the 'scope for trombone valves. I guess it might be of benefit on a dependent valve setup? But then I wonder about getting it around the knuckle corners. I keep thinking I should throw some more money at a better (smaller, more flexible) 'scope, but just have never done that.
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
It seems appropriate to re-post a post I made about 6 years ago regarding the use of a borescope :
" I started that " thread" a couple of years ago. I think it was lost in the transition from TTF to TC. it might still be in the archives. Someone added some phenomenal photos of the interiors of the tubing and valves. I'd love to give credit to him, but I've forgotten who it was. Anyway --- I bought mine over the Internet for under $10 and am almost positive it is a 5MM job. Yeah --- those "witness" marks on your valve are far from accurate. On almost every horn I used it, there was a remarkable improvement after properly setting the clearances using the boroscope. Get the smallest diameter you can get because it will allow more freedom in those tight confines. Also --- it should have a light [as most them probably already have]. The horn on which I did NOT need to adjust the clearances ? A cheap Jinbao knock-off of a King 8B ! Go figure --- maybe the Chinese have figured out something our commercial production folks haven't ? I don't know of a cheaper "tweak" out there ! Have fun ! Cheers !!"
Since that post I've added a far better quality borescope to my toolbox which allows several views and the intensity of the light to be switched at the control box [Inskam Model 113]. It's a much more flexible unit but at $80 VS $10 you'll have to decide if the improved clarity and flexibility is worth it. Lottsa fun ! :pant:
" I started that " thread" a couple of years ago. I think it was lost in the transition from TTF to TC. it might still be in the archives. Someone added some phenomenal photos of the interiors of the tubing and valves. I'd love to give credit to him, but I've forgotten who it was. Anyway --- I bought mine over the Internet for under $10 and am almost positive it is a 5MM job. Yeah --- those "witness" marks on your valve are far from accurate. On almost every horn I used it, there was a remarkable improvement after properly setting the clearances using the boroscope. Get the smallest diameter you can get because it will allow more freedom in those tight confines. Also --- it should have a light [as most them probably already have]. The horn on which I did NOT need to adjust the clearances ? A cheap Jinbao knock-off of a King 8B ! Go figure --- maybe the Chinese have figured out something our commercial production folks haven't ? I don't know of a cheaper "tweak" out there ! Have fun ! Cheers !!"
Since that post I've added a far better quality borescope to my toolbox which allows several views and the intensity of the light to be switched at the control box [Inskam Model 113]. It's a much more flexible unit but at $80 VS $10 you'll have to decide if the improved clarity and flexibility is worth it. Lottsa fun ! :pant:
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="2bobone"]The horn on which I did NOT need to adjust the clearances ? A cheap Jinbao knock-off of a King 8B ! Go figure --- maybe the Chinese have figured out something our commercial production folks haven't ?[/quote]
So pretty much a variation of my Schiller (which is a 7B knockoff). :lol:
My problem with these 'scopes isn't the diameter, but the length of the of the end part that contains the lens. That just won't go around anything but the gentlest (and lengthy) curves. I see some on Amazon that have "articulating" probes -- starting at around $130. And that might work for me, and I'd spend that much if it did. But the ones that look like they'd really do the job seem to be in the $400+ range. Ya gotta pay to play, I guess.
So pretty much a variation of my Schiller (which is a 7B knockoff). :lol:
My problem with these 'scopes isn't the diameter, but the length of the of the end part that contains the lens. That just won't go around anything but the gentlest (and lengthy) curves. I see some on Amazon that have "articulating" probes -- starting at around $130. And that might work for me, and I'd spend that much if it did. But the ones that look like they'd really do the job seem to be in the $400+ range. Ya gotta pay to play, I guess.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I recently replaced bumpers on an 88h and had to play it before adjusting. Valve range out of whack. After xacto adjustment it sings like a bird down low. I don't buy into the "dog horn" idea. I think any (well designed) horn can play well with a well-placed adjustment. Might be an xacto ot a screwdriver or a torch, but no horn is truly beyond hope.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="ghmerrill"]Well, ... Ship of Theseus comes to mind. :lol:[/quote]
Now you’ve done it. You’ve violated Richard Strauss’ rule number 4: “Never look encouragingly at Aidan except with a short glance to give an important cue.”
Now you’ve done it. You’ve violated Richard Strauss’ rule number 4: “Never look encouragingly at Aidan except with a short glance to give an important cue.”
- Estraven
- Posts: 122
- Joined: May 05, 2021
So it appears that there are three 50B2s in the maint depot at the same time: atoppers, burgerbobs, and mine. Wanna race?
The limiting factor on those cheap endo cams is depth of field; I’d appreciate some comments from those who have them about that.
Re: valve witness marks; the ones on my 50B2 valve spindles (both of them) are 90 deg. off from where they should be. I have no idea why, and neither does my tech. I don’t use them.
The limiting factor on those cheap endo cams is depth of field; I’d appreciate some comments from those who have them about that.
Re: valve witness marks; the ones on my 50B2 valve spindles (both of them) are 90 deg. off from where they should be. I have no idea why, and neither does my tech. I don’t use them.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]Well, ... Ship of Theseus comes to mind. :lol:[/quote]
Trombone of Theseus :mrgreen:
Trombone of Theseus :mrgreen:
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Estraven"]The limiting factor on those cheap endo cams is depth of field; I’d appreciate some comments from those who have them about that.[/quote]
Comment: Yeah, that feature of them does suck. Again, I think ya gotta pay to play. I know that both my ENT guy and my urologist have really good endoscopes, but I don't think I can pony up that amount for my purposes. Like when I noticed that the magnifying glasses (with lights) my dental hygienist was using during one of my tooth-cleaning visits ... I thought "If they're in something like in the <=$200 range, I might go for those." She told me that her parents had bought them for her as a graduation present and they were $3,000! I think she said that replacing the battery pack was $200 :weep:
Comment: Yeah, that feature of them does suck. Again, I think ya gotta pay to play. I know that both my ENT guy and my urologist have really good endoscopes, but I don't think I can pony up that amount for my purposes. Like when I noticed that the magnifying glasses (with lights) my dental hygienist was using during one of my tooth-cleaning visits ... I thought "If they're in something like in the <=$200 range, I might go for those." She told me that her parents had bought them for her as a graduation present and they were $3,000! I think she said that replacing the battery pack was $200 :weep:
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Burgerbob"]I use this one:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.amazon.com/NIDAGE-Automotiv ... =1&ref&tag">https://www.amazon.com/NIDAGE-Automotive-Inspection-Semi-Rigid-Smartphones/dp/B07C9C6P5D/ref=asc_df_B07C9C6P5D/?adgrpid=57656765690&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg_eHsZ-wgwMVjyutBh20Rw_HEAQYASABEgJbbfD_BwE&hvadid=312208026602&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl&hvlocint&hvlocphy=9031114&hvnetw=g&hvpone&hvpos&hvptwo&hvqmt&hvrand=8126360113652009244&hvtargid=pla-570625718335&linkCode=df0&mcid=5db5f4a956bc36bf9fad429d29491e23&psc=1&ref&tag</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
So this one works well??
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.amazon.com/NIDAGE-Automotiv ... =1&ref&tag">https://www.amazon.com/NIDAGE-Automotive-Inspection-Semi-Rigid-Smartphones/dp/B07C9C6P5D/ref=asc_df_B07C9C6P5D/?adgrpid=57656765690&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg_eHsZ-wgwMVjyutBh20Rw_HEAQYASABEgJbbfD_BwE&hvadid=312208026602&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl&hvlocint&hvlocphy=9031114&hvnetw=g&hvpone&hvpos&hvptwo&hvqmt&hvrand=8126360113652009244&hvtargid=pla-570625718335&linkCode=df0&mcid=5db5f4a956bc36bf9fad429d29491e23&psc=1&ref&tag</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
So this one works well??
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="2bobone"]It seems appropriate to re-post a post I made about 6 years ago regarding the use of a borescope :
" I started that " thread" a couple of years ago. I think it was lost in the transition from TTF to TC. it might still be in the archives. Someone added some phenomenal photos of the interiors of the tubing and valves. I'd love to give credit to him, but I've forgotten who it was. Anyway --- I bought mine over the Internet for under $10 and am almost positive it is a 5MM job. Yeah --- those "witness" marks on your valve are far from accurate. On almost every horn I used it, there was a remarkable improvement after properly setting the clearances using the boroscope. Get the smallest diameter you can get because it will allow more freedom in those tight confines. Also --- it should have a light [as most them probably already have]. The horn on which I did NOT need to adjust the clearances ? A cheap Jinbao knock-off of a King 8B ! Go figure --- maybe the Chinese have figured out something our commercial production folks haven't ? I don't know of a cheaper "tweak" out there ! Have fun ! Cheers !!"
Since that post I've added a far better quality borescope to my toolbox which allows several views and the intensity of the light to be switched at the control box [Inskam Model 113]. It's a much more flexible unit but at $80 VS $10 you'll have to decide if the improved clarity and flexibility is worth it. Lottsa fun ! :pant:[/quote]
Bob,
Pretty sure those photos were mine :)
Also I seem to recall that SOME of them made use of the right angle mirror that came with that cheap camera.
The wifi options are MUCH better. I had given one of that first model to George McCracken. We used it on perhaps a half dozen french horns before the teeny USB cable solder points gave up. WiFi eliminates that weak point.
The reason I keep using my original unit is because the length of the head is relatively short, so it does go around some corners new units can't navigte.
Even with a bore light to help non-camera use, the view of valve edges is FAR better with the camera than without.
Back to Aidan's original observation: when I bought my Duo Gravis the valve section played like there was a sock in it. I asked McCracken about it. He loosened a bezel ring on the OPPOSITE side from the rotor cap, tweaked the stop arm plate, and the rest was history. That first generation Duo Gravis had a cylindrical (rather than tapered) valve core/casing fit. The removable stop arm side of the casing allowed cylindrical honing. It also allowed the stop plates to get VERY wonky! Lessoned learned :lol:
Dave
" I started that " thread" a couple of years ago. I think it was lost in the transition from TTF to TC. it might still be in the archives. Someone added some phenomenal photos of the interiors of the tubing and valves. I'd love to give credit to him, but I've forgotten who it was. Anyway --- I bought mine over the Internet for under $10 and am almost positive it is a 5MM job. Yeah --- those "witness" marks on your valve are far from accurate. On almost every horn I used it, there was a remarkable improvement after properly setting the clearances using the boroscope. Get the smallest diameter you can get because it will allow more freedom in those tight confines. Also --- it should have a light [as most them probably already have]. The horn on which I did NOT need to adjust the clearances ? A cheap Jinbao knock-off of a King 8B ! Go figure --- maybe the Chinese have figured out something our commercial production folks haven't ? I don't know of a cheaper "tweak" out there ! Have fun ! Cheers !!"
Since that post I've added a far better quality borescope to my toolbox which allows several views and the intensity of the light to be switched at the control box [Inskam Model 113]. It's a much more flexible unit but at $80 VS $10 you'll have to decide if the improved clarity and flexibility is worth it. Lottsa fun ! :pant:[/quote]
Bob,
Pretty sure those photos were mine :)
Also I seem to recall that SOME of them made use of the right angle mirror that came with that cheap camera.
The wifi options are MUCH better. I had given one of that first model to George McCracken. We used it on perhaps a half dozen french horns before the teeny USB cable solder points gave up. WiFi eliminates that weak point.
The reason I keep using my original unit is because the length of the head is relatively short, so it does go around some corners new units can't navigte.
Even with a bore light to help non-camera use, the view of valve edges is FAR better with the camera than without.
Back to Aidan's original observation: when I bought my Duo Gravis the valve section played like there was a sock in it. I asked McCracken about it. He loosened a bezel ring on the OPPOSITE side from the rotor cap, tweaked the stop arm plate, and the rest was history. That first generation Duo Gravis had a cylindrical (rather than tapered) valve core/casing fit. The removable stop arm side of the casing allowed cylindrical honing. It also allowed the stop plates to get VERY wonky! Lessoned learned :lol:
Dave
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]
So this one works well??[/quote]
Yes, I'll make a video about how I use it today
So this one works well??[/quote]
Yes, I'll make a video about how I use it today
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
"Bob,
"Pretty sure those photos were mine :)
Also I seem to recall that SOME of them made use of the right angle mirror that came with that cheap camera.
The wifi options are MUCH better. I had given one of that first model to George McCracken. We used it on perhaps a half dozen french horns before the teeny USB cable solder points gave up. WiFi eliminates that weak point.
The reason I keep using my original unit is because the length of the head is relatively short, so it does go around some corners new units can't navigte.
Even with a bore light to help non-camera use, the view of valve edges is FAR better with the camera than without.
Back to Aidan's original observation: when I bought my Duo Gravis the valve section played like there was a sock in it. I asked McCracken about it. He loosened a bezel ring on the OPPOSITE side from the rotor cap, tweaked the stop arm plate, and the rest was history. That first generation Duo Gravis had a cylindrical (rather than tapered) valve core/casing fit. The removable stop arm side of the casing allowed cylindrical honing. It also allowed the stop plates to get VERY wonky! Lessoned learned :lol: Dave"
The "mystery" poster of those great valve alignment photos has been identified ! "Boneagain" gets my kudos for such a great job. I've never had the fortune to get such clarity with my scopes. I also learned something from Dave about valve housing tapers. I always assumed that they were all cylindrical, but apparently not ! I managed to get through my playing career with no socks in my Duo Gravis but had I known how touchy the stop plates were I'd have been a lot more nervous than usual ! Thanks for clearing up that matter.
"Pretty sure those photos were mine :)
Also I seem to recall that SOME of them made use of the right angle mirror that came with that cheap camera.
The wifi options are MUCH better. I had given one of that first model to George McCracken. We used it on perhaps a half dozen french horns before the teeny USB cable solder points gave up. WiFi eliminates that weak point.
The reason I keep using my original unit is because the length of the head is relatively short, so it does go around some corners new units can't navigte.
Even with a bore light to help non-camera use, the view of valve edges is FAR better with the camera than without.
Back to Aidan's original observation: when I bought my Duo Gravis the valve section played like there was a sock in it. I asked McCracken about it. He loosened a bezel ring on the OPPOSITE side from the rotor cap, tweaked the stop arm plate, and the rest was history. That first generation Duo Gravis had a cylindrical (rather than tapered) valve core/casing fit. The removable stop arm side of the casing allowed cylindrical honing. It also allowed the stop plates to get VERY wonky! Lessoned learned :lol: Dave"
The "mystery" poster of those great valve alignment photos has been identified ! "Boneagain" gets my kudos for such a great job. I've never had the fortune to get such clarity with my scopes. I also learned something from Dave about valve housing tapers. I always assumed that they were all cylindrical, but apparently not ! I managed to get through my playing career with no socks in my Duo Gravis but had I known how touchy the stop plates were I'd have been a lot more nervous than usual ! Thanks for clearing up that matter.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]Yes, I'll make a video about how I use it today[/quote]
Did this ever happen?
Did this ever happen?