Good sound
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
This thread is inspired by the thread: <LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=34200">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=34200</LINK_TEXT>
I just want to add these videos I think is so good, and is a good examples on cristal clear sound. Here is a demo that shows the differences when "it" exists and when "it" does not exist.
The first is an example of a demo of good sound in the low register that should be the goal (what I think) and how to get it (how HE gets it). The change when it is there and when it is not is picked up by the microphones. Since this player is so good he can play good either way.
You can hear him explain what he does to achieve the open sound. He is then not talking about playing "on top of the sound" or in "the taper point". He is not puttning it like that but the "zing" he gets in his tone is what to strive for and is the same thing, i believe.
He achieves this in the low register with a move of the jaw which allows the bottom lip to be pushed forward. He also makes the chin flat to help supporting the bottom lip and to prevent the emboushure from collapsing. He has also another video where he demo high notes, and there It's also easy to hear the difference when he gets the sparkles in his sound, even when he plays soft you hear the sound transform from "muddy" to cristal clear.
In the video about high register he talks a lot of the importance of the shape of the apparture as he gets higher. An "almond-shaped" aparture like this <> is NOT what he wants. Instead he work to keep the apparture o-shaped. It's what's important for him and makes that clear sound. It's the pucker that does that as opposed to the shape he gets with a "smile-emboushure". When I saw that video it looks like he was able to demo both "smile" and a "pucker" emboushure. Maybe he started out in the beginning as a player who used a smile-emboushure. I also started with a smile-emboushure. Today I can not play like that at all, but it seems he can control both att will. Amazing player and I agree on everything he says about getting a good sound in these videos. It's different explanations of what a good sound is and how to get there, and these two videos I added are a lot more concrete than the video that started this discussion. The videos of James Markey are among the best I've seen.
/Tom
Low register (good sound)
<YOUTUBE id="OgTuGMOHXio">https://youtu.be/OgTuGMOHXio?si=GmEKAIvxX3WAefQv</YOUTUBE>
High register (good sound)
<YOUTUBE id="Ds4F7tmt48A">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds4F7tmt48A</YOUTUBE>
I just want to add these videos I think is so good, and is a good examples on cristal clear sound. Here is a demo that shows the differences when "it" exists and when "it" does not exist.
The first is an example of a demo of good sound in the low register that should be the goal (what I think) and how to get it (how HE gets it). The change when it is there and when it is not is picked up by the microphones. Since this player is so good he can play good either way.
You can hear him explain what he does to achieve the open sound. He is then not talking about playing "on top of the sound" or in "the taper point". He is not puttning it like that but the "zing" he gets in his tone is what to strive for and is the same thing, i believe.
He achieves this in the low register with a move of the jaw which allows the bottom lip to be pushed forward. He also makes the chin flat to help supporting the bottom lip and to prevent the emboushure from collapsing. He has also another video where he demo high notes, and there It's also easy to hear the difference when he gets the sparkles in his sound, even when he plays soft you hear the sound transform from "muddy" to cristal clear.
In the video about high register he talks a lot of the importance of the shape of the apparture as he gets higher. An "almond-shaped" aparture like this <> is NOT what he wants. Instead he work to keep the apparture o-shaped. It's what's important for him and makes that clear sound. It's the pucker that does that as opposed to the shape he gets with a "smile-emboushure". When I saw that video it looks like he was able to demo both "smile" and a "pucker" emboushure. Maybe he started out in the beginning as a player who used a smile-emboushure. I also started with a smile-emboushure. Today I can not play like that at all, but it seems he can control both att will. Amazing player and I agree on everything he says about getting a good sound in these videos. It's different explanations of what a good sound is and how to get there, and these two videos I added are a lot more concrete than the video that started this discussion. The videos of James Markey are among the best I've seen.
/Tom
Low register (good sound)
<YOUTUBE id="OgTuGMOHXio">https://youtu.be/OgTuGMOHXio?si=GmEKAIvxX3WAefQv</YOUTUBE>
High register (good sound)
<YOUTUBE id="Ds4F7tmt48A">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds4F7tmt48A</YOUTUBE>
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]Marvelous player. Opinions on sound subjective.[/quote]
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="230095" time="1704554156" user_id="7573">
Marvelous player. Opinions on sound subjective.[/quote]
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Now if only.
These very subjective descriptions must have some relationship with the overtone spectrum of the note, relative strengths of the various harmonics.
Now if only.
Marvelous player. Opinions on sound subjective.[/quote]
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Now if only.
These very subjective descriptions must have some relationship with the overtone spectrum of the note, relative strengths of the various harmonics.
Now if only.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
James Markey has done some really good instructional lectures on tromboning, definitely worth checking out.
I'll note in the 1st video it's not just James' sound there but also a really basic, solid sound engineering for that video.
I'll note in the 1st video it's not just James' sound there but also a really basic, solid sound engineering for that video.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
In the fist vid he's taking about the jaw positioning as "flattening of the chin", along with other things related to the embouchure, of a downstream player.
Not taught enough. This should be elementary, not revolutionary.
Also, the first video's use of extensive use of shallow focal depth and great color grade makes it sounds about 50x better, in addition to the basic, good, sound engineering. :lol:
Not taught enough. This should be elementary, not revolutionary.
Also, the first video's use of extensive use of shallow focal depth and great color grade makes it sounds about 50x better, in addition to the basic, good, sound engineering. :lol:
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
I found the background music, camera angles, and editing combined to make an over-produced video that was hard to watch.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]I found the background music, camera angles, and editing combined to make an over-produced video that was hard to watch.[/quote]
Well that's what you get when you hire Denis Villaneuve.
Well that's what you get when you hire Denis Villaneuve.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
That's nice, but I found his terminology confusing. To me "flat chin" and "buckled chin" have no meaning. When he demonstrates the "buckled chin", it looks like he is simply jutting out his lower lip without pivoting. How does the word "buckled" apply? When he demonstrates the "flat chin", it looks like he IS making the pivot. Maybe just another way to describe the same thing? This is around 8:30 in the first video.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
So many players talk authoritatively about how important a "round aperture" is, while never having actually observed what it looks like.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]So many players talk authoritatively about how important a "round aperture" is, while never having actually observed what it looks like.[/quote]
Sure, but I also think of it more as a feeling he describes. He says it isn't science (if I remember correctly). He strives for the "round" feeling in his aparture, especially he says this as he ascends up to top the highest notes in the second video . If he comes from a smile emboushure and has worked to change that to a puckered embouschure then that's what it feels like. I too come from a smile emboushure and I believe that's why I can relate very much to this. A smile emboushure makes a wider opening because you pull your corners to the sides compared to a puckered emboushure. The pucker makes you push forward and this will focus everything at a point more in the middle of the aparture. This can give you the sensation of a circle form, compare <> to o.
Would be very interesting to see how his lips and aparture looks inside the mouthpiece when he plays with a smile and with a puckered emboushute since he seems to be able to do both.
/Tom
Sure, but I also think of it more as a feeling he describes. He says it isn't science (if I remember correctly). He strives for the "round" feeling in his aparture, especially he says this as he ascends up to top the highest notes in the second video . If he comes from a smile emboushure and has worked to change that to a puckered embouschure then that's what it feels like. I too come from a smile emboushure and I believe that's why I can relate very much to this. A smile emboushure makes a wider opening because you pull your corners to the sides compared to a puckered emboushure. The pucker makes you push forward and this will focus everything at a point more in the middle of the aparture. This can give you the sensation of a circle form, compare <> to o.
Would be very interesting to see how his lips and aparture looks inside the mouthpiece when he plays with a smile and with a puckered emboushute since he seems to be able to do both.
/Tom
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
"Smile" and "pucker" are two extremes with a lot of room in between.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="230095" time="1704554156" user_id="7573">
Marvelous player. Opinions on sound subjective.[/quote]
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Yes but one person's core is another person's white noise. And there are many "sounds" in between.
Marvelous player. Opinions on sound subjective.[/quote]
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Yes but one person's core is another person's white noise. And there are many "sounds" in between.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="230195" time="1704651045" user_id="3173">
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom[/quote]
Yes but one person's core is another person's white noise. And there are many "sounds" in between.
</QUOTE>
Actually the sound pyramide as he described it was "warmth, core and brilliance" (sorry me bad). He said all instruments have that in their sounds.
In the context when be talked about that it was to use the most suitable sound for the song. He demonstrated a Bodgorni etude as an example where he let more of the "warmth" out and an excerpt from "Ein Heldenleben" as example of something with "brilliance".
/Tom
There are many different good sounds. I like the way he sounds. He describe the sound as beeing a pyramide that consists of fundamental, core and brilliance.
/Tom[/quote]
Yes but one person's core is another person's white noise. And there are many "sounds" in between.
</QUOTE>
Actually the sound pyramide as he described it was "warmth, core and brilliance" (sorry me bad). He said all instruments have that in their sounds.
In the context when be talked about that it was to use the most suitable sound for the song. He demonstrated a Bodgorni etude as an example where he let more of the "warmth" out and an excerpt from "Ein Heldenleben" as example of something with "brilliance".
/Tom
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
Ok Tom. Think you’re missing my point but that’s ok. Enjoy.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]Ok Tom. Think you’re missing my point but that’s ok. Enjoy.[/quote]
Ok, sorry about that too, then. I try my very best, but probably I don't get it. I'm not very good at reading between lines and my native language isn't English.
/Tom
Ok, sorry about that too, then. I try my very best, but probably I don't get it. I'm not very good at reading between lines and my native language isn't English.
/Tom
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
It's easy to miss the point when we're talking about a pyramid of warmth, core and brilliance. That's four metaphors we all have to agree on!
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="230574" time="1704910093" user_id="7573">
Ok Tom. Think you’re missing my point but that’s ok. Enjoy.[/quote]
Ok, sorry about that too, then. I try my very best, but probably I don't get it. I'm not very good at reading between lines and my native language isn't English.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
You communicate very well!!! I wouldn't stand a chance communicating in your native language.
Ok Tom. Think you’re missing my point but that’s ok. Enjoy.[/quote]
Ok, sorry about that too, then. I try my very best, but probably I don't get it. I'm not very good at reading between lines and my native language isn't English.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
You communicate very well!!! I wouldn't stand a chance communicating in your native language.
- smcgonigal
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Apr 02, 2019
Seems more like a sliding scale rather than a pyramid to me.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]
Actually the sound pyramid as he described it was "warmth, core and brilliance" (sorry me bad). He said all instruments have that in their sounds.
/Tom[/quote]
There is no warmth, core, or brilliance in the kazoo. But that's what they were going for when it was invented. Markey is all looking down on the kazoo by forgetting about it.
Actually the sound pyramid as he described it was "warmth, core and brilliance" (sorry me bad). He said all instruments have that in their sounds.
/Tom[/quote]
There is no warmth, core, or brilliance in the kazoo. But that's what they were going for when it was invented. Markey is all looking down on the kazoo by forgetting about it.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="smcgonigal"]Seems more like a sliding scale rather than a pyramid to me.[/quote]
I would disagree.
I've interpreted it this way:
You could have a sound at any point inside that triangle, or anywhere outside of it too. Markey tends to aim towards the right wall of that particular triangle, for instance.
I would disagree.
I've interpreted it this way:
You could have a sound at any point inside that triangle, or anywhere outside of it too. Markey tends to aim towards the right wall of that particular triangle, for instance.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
That may be what he means, but I sure wouldn't call it a pyramid. That's a triangle.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I think of it as a pyramid in three dimentions with the base and up to a third with warmth, and then the middle third holds the core and in the top third there is the brilliance. In that pyramid you can have ALL at once and then if we look at the actual volume there will be most of the warmth, less of the core and inly a tad in the top is brilliance.
You could cut some edge of and settle with lots of warmth and core and naturally also do the opposite and go for just core and brilliance, and of course only warmth..
/Tom
You could cut some edge of and settle with lots of warmth and core and naturally also do the opposite and go for just core and brilliance, and of course only warmth..
/Tom
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
That's why I like the triangle, you just aim at a point in it. I don't think "warmth" is the basis for all of our sound, like if that was the base of the pyramid.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I took it as a radar chart:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_chart
The three points would have various amounts of warmth, core, brilliance depending on how you're playing, the accent, etc. it wouldn't be fully colored in at all times, but it could be subjectively measured at any given time.
If you layered a bunch of these over each other, you'd get a picture of that player's sound. You'd have to take a recording and randomly go through it, and assess a few measures here, a few measures there, each time making a plot within the triangle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_chart
The three points would have various amounts of warmth, core, brilliance depending on how you're playing, the accent, etc. it wouldn't be fully colored in at all times, but it could be subjectively measured at any given time.
If you layered a bunch of these over each other, you'd get a picture of that player's sound. You'd have to take a recording and randomly go through it, and assess a few measures here, a few measures there, each time making a plot within the triangle.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Are you guys just describing the high frequency color change due to volume? Low volume seems dark and warm, then brightens, then suddenly brightens when it lights up. Some horns are less sudden than others, a kind of "shoulder" on the color spectrum wrt volume.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]Are you guys just describing the high frequency color change due to volume? Low volume seems dark and warm, then brightens, then suddenly brightens when it lights up. Some horns are less sudden than others, a kind of "shoulder" on the color spectrum wrt volume.[/quote]
When James Markey is playing in the demo he plays the Bodgorni down an octave to show an example of "warmth". He is then playing soft and later when he shows the "Ein Heldenleben" and has more "brilliance" he is also playing louder. This is an observation. The colour has a lot to do with nuances but also to do with technique. For a professional at that level it is possible to colour the sound also at will without to much change of decibel. Of course the gear also can be a help to change the sound.
I think the result in general where a person gets his sound in the "pyramide" isn't just the consequence of the current volume. It's not as simple as that (what I believe).
/Tom
When James Markey is playing in the demo he plays the Bodgorni down an octave to show an example of "warmth". He is then playing soft and later when he shows the "Ein Heldenleben" and has more "brilliance" he is also playing louder. This is an observation. The colour has a lot to do with nuances but also to do with technique. For a professional at that level it is possible to colour the sound also at will without to much change of decibel. Of course the gear also can be a help to change the sound.
I think the result in general where a person gets his sound in the "pyramide" isn't just the consequence of the current volume. It's not as simple as that (what I believe).
/Tom
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
It would be interesting to hear him play the same excerpt both ways. Switching excerpts like he did makes it feel like there is misdirection going on.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Markey can add whatever he wants to his sound- he did an example of playing Rheingold in the section at Pokorny seminar. He added brilliance to the end rainbow bridge theme and it was like night and day, the way his sound could cut through the whole rest of the section with ease rather than trying for just volume.