"soft hat over bell"
- confusedtrombonedude
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Feb 23, 2022
Hi,
In my youth orchestra we are playing William Grant Still's Afro-american symphony and at the beginning of the fourth movement it says "soft hat over bell" and I asked my director and he said music stores sell hat mutes but I have not seen a single hat mute anywhere.
Anything and everything helps
In my youth orchestra we are playing William Grant Still's Afro-american symphony and at the beginning of the fourth movement it says "soft hat over bell" and I asked my director and he said music stores sell hat mutes but I have not seen a single hat mute anywhere.
Anything and everything helps
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
There is a Humes and Berg hat mute. I'd just buy a cheap hat, maybe even use a baseball cap.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
Still wrote that in 1930, when men wore hats and women didn't play in the symphony. He probably meant a hat from a haberdasher, not a music store.
I don't know the piece, but I imagine a H&B derby mute isn't what's intended.
I don't know the piece, but I imagine a H&B derby mute isn't what's intended.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
I played a piece that called for hat a few years ago. We tried to fake it with plungers, but the director insisted it had to look like hats. The look was more important than the sound. So I went to Party City and found some good looking costume hats for just a few dollars.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
You don't need a "hat mute." [The H&B Derby mute is not soft - quite rigid!] As Still directed, just use a soft hat. (I've used a beret, but any fabric hat that's big enough to hang loosely over the bell will do. I suppose in the 1930s, they may have used a homburg hat, as worn by all fine gentlemen in the day.)
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]I played a piece that called for hat a few years ago. We tried to fake it with plungers, but the director insisted it had to look like hats. The look was more important than the sound. So I went to Party City and found some good looking costume hats for just a few dollars.[/quote]
If you go this route, I’d line them with felt as they are likely to be a more reflective plastic.
As the owner of several fedoras, newsboy hats, and even a couple of pork pies, I’d probably bring whichever was closest to what everybody else could have.
Good excuse to have a decent hat,
Andy
If you go this route, I’d line them with felt as they are likely to be a more reflective plastic.
As the owner of several fedoras, newsboy hats, and even a couple of pork pies, I’d probably bring whichever was closest to what everybody else could have.
Good excuse to have a decent hat,
Andy
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Softone mute? Just hang it partially over the bell. Comes in several colors, wads up nicely for storage and seems to be almost indestructable. But a bit pricey for one performance.
Or go to a party supplies store and get something temporary.
Or go to a party supplies store and get something temporary.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Goodwill or any 2nd hand thrift store may have soft hats. If you have an acrylic stocking cap, that may work as well. There isn’t much percentage in spending money for one performance.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I suspect what Still had in mind was a felt hat (homburg, fedora, trilby, etc.) draped over the bell. Unfortunately, you're not likely to find a hat big enough to drape over an 8½" bell. Besides, a felt hat isn't cheap.
My suggestion would be a cloth hat or cap (no mesh!), but try to find one that's rigid enough that you can hold it up to the bell by the bill/brim without it sagging. Something in a dark solid color without any badging would be best. If your section can be equipped with matching hats, so much the better.
My suggestion would be a cloth hat or cap (no mesh!), but try to find one that's rigid enough that you can hold it up to the bell by the bill/brim without it sagging. Something in a dark solid color without any badging would be best. If your section can be equipped with matching hats, so much the better.
- bubba7753
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I played it yesterday. There are alot of mute changes. I used a black ski hat. It's very difficult to put on the bell. I am open to suggestions also.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Beret (plus added padding inside to adjust mutitude as req). Hangs on in about a second
- ssking2b
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Sep 29, 2018
You can use the soft tone mute and turn it inside out so it shows as black. All the soft one mutes is all sizes are black inside.
- zack90
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Jul 03, 2025
Hi,
I remember running into the same marking a while back. A soft felt hat, an old fedora, or even a beret can actually do the trick if you're in a pinch[url=https://french-beret.com/]. Some players also use DIY solutions when a proper hat mute isn't available[url=https://buddhive.com/].
I remember running into the same marking a while back. A soft felt hat, an old fedora, or even a beret can actually do the trick if you're in a pinch
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
Soft tone would be good I think. I have one that is black - it was a gift so I don’t know if it was a special order or if they are easy to order.
JS
JS
- tbonesullivan
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Jul 02, 2019
Still uses the same instructions in the "Romance" and "Quit Dat Fool'nish" pieces for saxophone, which are actually intended to play as a set. A knit winter hat is probably the easiest to use and cheapest. I ended up using a soft-tone but I think it may have cut down on the sound too much.
Question is how to get a fedora to stay over a bell, as I was playing an 8 1/2 inch bell horn, definitely too large for a regular sized fedora.
Question is how to get a fedora to stay over a bell, as I was playing an 8 1/2 inch bell horn, definitely too large for a regular sized fedora.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbonesullivan"]A knit winter hat is probably the easiest to use and cheapest. I ended up using a soft-tone but I think it may have cut down on the sound too much.[/quote]
On the other hand, I tried a knit winter hat and got too much sound. :? But it was pretty loose knit. So I went to the SoftTone with holes in it. Possibly the least expensive approach is to go to a resale store at the right time of year and buy three or four hats and try them. Or maybe take your horn to the store and try out a bunch. :lol: I have a beret that might work (with the right holes in it) -- except it won't go onto the 9 1/2" bell.
However, now I'm inclined to use my Salt Shaker S-Mute (which I can tune appropriately with different felts in it and either the solid of perforated end).
On the other hand, I tried a knit winter hat and got too much sound. :? But it was pretty loose knit. So I went to the SoftTone with holes in it. Possibly the least expensive approach is to go to a resale store at the right time of year and buy three or four hats and try them. Or maybe take your horn to the store and try out a bunch. :lol: I have a beret that might work (with the right holes in it) -- except it won't go onto the 9 1/2" bell.
However, now I'm inclined to use my Salt Shaker S-Mute (which I can tune appropriately with different felts in it and either the solid of perforated end).
- mrdeacon
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: May 08, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]Softone mute? Just hang it partially over the bell. Comes in several colors, wads up nicely for storage and seems to be almost indestructable. But a bit pricey for one performance.
Or go to a party supplies store and get something temporary.[/quote]
In a community band I play in we recently had a tune that called for hats and we just all used soft tone mutes. We were dressed in tuxes for the concert and it was more professional looking using the soft tone mutes than base ball caps.
Or go to a party supplies store and get something temporary.[/quote]
In a community band I play in we recently had a tune that called for hats and we just all used soft tone mutes. We were dressed in tuxes for the concert and it was more professional looking using the soft tone mutes than base ball caps.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
A Softone mute sounds too much like a bucket mute—it’s too muffled, and prevents a lot of sound from projecting. I’d go with Andy’s (elmsandr) suggestions for a soft hat like a baseball cap, a beret, fedora, etc. You want cloth that will allow some sound to go through the hat.
Trumpet players will sometimes use a Crown Royal bag over their bells. If that type of bag were large enough to fit over a trombone bell, it would be ideal.
Trumpet players will sometimes use a Crown Royal bag over their bells. If that type of bag were large enough to fit over a trombone bell, it would be ideal.
- NathanSobieralski
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Feb 04, 2024
Salt Shaker would work well in this use case. Quick mute changes are secure and easy. You can fine tune the "feltiness" of the sound as well as the depth of the mute in your bell.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]A Softone mute sounds too much like a bucket mute—it’s too muffled, and prevents a lot of sound from projecting.[/quote]
Not if you cut slots or holes in it -- a tried and true tradition (though typically with berets rather than Softones :roll: ) in jazz performance. E.g. ...
<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=230366#p230366">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=230366#p230366</LINK_TEXT>
The SaltShaker turns out often to be preferable in practice since you can insert and remove it with great ease. The Softone is a pain to get on and off. Particularly, putting it on requires extreme dexterity with one hand, especially with a bass, and some stretching out or splitting it along the edge. But it may provide a more "poofy" kind of resonance.
Not if you cut slots or holes in it -- a tried and true tradition (though typically with berets rather than Softones :roll: ) in jazz performance. E.g. ...
<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=230366#p230366">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=230366#p230366</LINK_TEXT>
The SaltShaker turns out often to be preferable in practice since you can insert and remove it with great ease. The Softone is a pain to get on and off. Particularly, putting it on requires extreme dexterity with one hand, especially with a bass, and some stretching out or splitting it along the edge. But it may provide a more "poofy" kind of resonance.
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
A: William Grant Still
B: William Grant Still's hat
https://www.instagram.com/celesteheadlee/p/DFfkREmJnCt/
<ATTACHMENT filename="WGS_Hat.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]WGS_Hat.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
B: William Grant Still's hat
https://www.instagram.com/celesteheadlee/p/DFfkREmJnCt/
<ATTACHMENT filename="WGS_Hat.jpg" index="0">
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I would hesitate to call that "soft". There is some stiffening in the felt. A beret, slouch hat (see the guy on the left), stocking cap, etc. would be much more in the "soft hat" line.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]Trumpet players will sometimes use a Crown Royal bag over their bells. If that type of bag were large enough to fit over a trombone bell, it would be ideal.[/quote]
Ah, but you <B>can</B> use them on a trombone. The 1.75 liter Crown Royal bag (readily purchased on eBay or other internet sites) fits easily over the 8" bell of a tenor trombone. Less muffled than with a Softone or bucket mute - in fact the sound is very pleasant. I use one all the time playing in a trad jazz / Dixieland combo.
Ah, but you <B>can</B> use them on a trombone. The 1.75 liter Crown Royal bag (readily purchased on eBay or other internet sites) fits easily over the 8" bell of a tenor trombone. Less muffled than with a Softone or bucket mute - in fact the sound is very pleasant. I use one all the time playing in a trad jazz / Dixieland combo.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]The Softone is a pain to get on and off. Particularly, putting it on requires extreme dexterity with one hand, especially with a bass, and some stretching out or splitting it along the edge.[/quote]
Not my experience. I use Softone mutes on both tenor and bass trombones. (They come in 4 sizes - small tenor, large tenor, small bass, and large bass. I have large tenor and small bass.) Reasonably easy to install (just hang loosely on the bell to get a nice bucket mute sound; no stretching required if you use the correct size) and very easy to remove quickly with one hand. Blends nicely with my big band section when all four of us use them. I'm a fan - but I also sometimes like to use a Salt Shaker mute when bucket is called for (and for other interesting muted sounds). :shuffle:
Not my experience. I use Softone mutes on both tenor and bass trombones. (They come in 4 sizes - small tenor, large tenor, small bass, and large bass. I have large tenor and small bass.) Reasonably easy to install (just hang loosely on the bell to get a nice bucket mute sound; no stretching required if you use the correct size) and very easy to remove quickly with one hand. Blends nicely with my big band section when all four of us use them. I'm a fan - but I also sometimes like to use a Salt Shaker mute when bucket is called for (and for other interesting muted sounds). :shuffle:
- robcat2075
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Sep 03, 2018
The opposite of a soft hat is a hardhat and i don't think that fedora is a hardhat.
The newsboy cap isn't going to fit over a modern trombone bell unless it was from a very large newsboy.
The newsboy cap isn't going to fit over a modern trombone bell unless it was from a very large newsboy.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]Reasonably easy to install (just hang loosely on the bell to get a nice bucket mute sound; no stretching required if you use the correct size) ...[/quote]
If the resulting sound is what you want, all this is true. But you can get quite a different sound -- which I much prefer in various cases -- if the entire mute is pulled over the bell.
I may not have the largest size Softone mute. And I'd explore the possibilities if there's a larger one except ... (1) Even after I've cut slots in it to make it easier to to get on and off, it's still a real pain to put ON (not "hang it on"), (2) Even if I could do that, fast mute changes with it are quite problematic, and (3) all those problems seem to have been solved nicely by the Salt Shaker S-mute -- which is just SOOOOO nice.
If I encounter some passage calling for something like the Softone, and there's ample time to put it on and pull it off, I'll probably go for it. I think it does provide a unique sound -- not quite a bucket and not quite a cup, but a certain "fullness" and resonance that the S-mute doesn't quite duplicate. But that's a pretty esoteric criterion to employ in most big band music. So it sits at home instead of in my equipment bag.
If the resulting sound is what you want, all this is true. But you can get quite a different sound -- which I much prefer in various cases -- if the entire mute is pulled over the bell.
I may not have the largest size Softone mute. And I'd explore the possibilities if there's a larger one except ... (1) Even after I've cut slots in it to make it easier to to get on and off, it's still a real pain to put ON (not "hang it on"), (2) Even if I could do that, fast mute changes with it are quite problematic, and (3) all those problems seem to have been solved nicely by the Salt Shaker S-mute -- which is just SOOOOO nice.
If I encounter some passage calling for something like the Softone, and there's ample time to put it on and pull it off, I'll probably go for it. I think it does provide a unique sound -- not quite a bucket and not quite a cup, but a certain "fullness" and resonance that the S-mute doesn't quite duplicate. But that's a pretty esoteric criterion to employ in most big band music. So it sits at home instead of in my equipment bag.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
First @Gary: The way to use a Softone mute as a bucket is to drape it over the top of the bell. The Softone when pulled completely over the bell is more of a practice mute -- and I've used my Softone for both applications. The drape over the top is really quick, whereas putting the thing entirely over the bell takes more time than putting on a Humes & Berg Bucket.
Second @Robert: A hard hat is a piece of safety gear used in industrial environments where falling objects can be dangerous to your head. You could also consider a soldier's helmet to be a hard hat. We have a hard hat mute -- the derby; often made of aluminum or hard fiber. Many men's hats use compressed felt with some kind of stiffener and really won't work well as a soft hat. Note that the original soft hat mutes were used on 7½ inch bells and common berets or slouch hats would fit fine. With today's 8 or 8½ inch bells you can't just pull something off the hat rack.
Second @Robert: A hard hat is a piece of safety gear used in industrial environments where falling objects can be dangerous to your head. You could also consider a soldier's helmet to be a hard hat. We have a hard hat mute -- the derby; often made of aluminum or hard fiber. Many men's hats use compressed felt with some kind of stiffener and really won't work well as a soft hat. Note that the original soft hat mutes were used on 7½ inch bells and common berets or slouch hats would fit fine. With today's 8 or 8½ inch bells you can't just pull something off the hat rack.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]First @Gary: The way to use a Softone mute as a bucket is to drape it over the top of the bell. The Softone when pulled completely over the bell is more of a practice mute -- and I've used my Softone for both applications. The drape over the top is really quick, whereas putting the thing entirely over the bell takes more time than putting on a Humes & Berg Bucket.[/quote]
The drape over the top for mine is not what I'd call really quick. I Definitely have what is a Bass Trombone version, but it still takes some effort to stretch it onto a 9.5" bell. That's A way to use the Softone. But in that case, I'd just rather use the Salt Shaker mute as I have it set up for use as a bucket mute since it produces the desired result and is fast and easy to get in and out of the horn -- like a small straight mute.
As I said, my preferred way (because of the unique sound you can get out of it) to use my Softone is to put it fully onto the bell -- after I've tuned it by cutting some holes in it. And that works fine for long passages where you have time to put it on and take it off.
So I think we're talking about trying to accomplish two different things in (at least) two different circumstances. I thought at one point the Softone would work best for me "hung" partially over the mute in order play in the double valve register under a female vocalist with a rather quiet voice. But in that case as well -- after some experimentation with the Softone, the Salt Shaker proved to be a better choice.
The Salt Shaker also has the advantage that -- unlike the H&B Bucket mute -- it takes almost no time to put on and take out.
I do think that using the Softone for solo work, or perhaps across an entire section for a specific effect, would sound very nice. And I'm not trying to discourage anyone from using them. But although, for the big band, I carried it in my mute bag for close to a year, I found that I never in fact made use of it (except as a cushion over the removable removable cupl of my Denis Wick cup mute. :)
The drape over the top for mine is not what I'd call really quick. I Definitely have what is a Bass Trombone version, but it still takes some effort to stretch it onto a 9.5" bell. That's A way to use the Softone. But in that case, I'd just rather use the Salt Shaker mute as I have it set up for use as a bucket mute since it produces the desired result and is fast and easy to get in and out of the horn -- like a small straight mute.
As I said, my preferred way (because of the unique sound you can get out of it) to use my Softone is to put it fully onto the bell -- after I've tuned it by cutting some holes in it. And that works fine for long passages where you have time to put it on and take it off.
So I think we're talking about trying to accomplish two different things in (at least) two different circumstances. I thought at one point the Softone would work best for me "hung" partially over the mute in order play in the double valve register under a female vocalist with a rather quiet voice. But in that case as well -- after some experimentation with the Softone, the Salt Shaker proved to be a better choice.
The Salt Shaker also has the advantage that -- unlike the H&B Bucket mute -- it takes almost no time to put on and take out.
I do think that using the Softone for solo work, or perhaps across an entire section for a specific effect, would sound very nice. And I'm not trying to discourage anyone from using them. But although, for the big band, I carried it in my mute bag for close to a year, I found that I never in fact made use of it (except as a cushion over the removable removable cupl of my Denis Wick cup mute. :)
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I don't think we are at different purposes here. I have no doubt the Salt Shaker is a good choice. Given that I no longer play in public, I won't be able to see for myself. We did use draped Softones in a 3 trombone dance band as buckets with great success.