Bass bone players - how much do you change your kit?

TomInME · by **TomInME** » 2024-01-19 8:44 p.m.

For those who mostly/completely play bass: how much do you change your gear for different ensembles and/or types of playing? How much do you wish you could? And how much of what you change isn't really necessary?

Wondering if people have a big band setup, an orchestra setup, a chamber setup, etc.

I'm coming from the other end: same setup (even mouthpiece) for everything, even brass quintet tenor book, but recently have wanted to go bigger for most stuff, and maybe switch out the mouthpiece/leadpipe for lighter/higher playing when needed (that's all my budget can accommodate currently).

Just curious what the rest of the community has done / is doing.

Burgerbob · 2024-01-19 9:04 p.m.

I currently have a commercial setup (jazz, etc) and a legit setup. Yes, I only have two basses at the moment!

I don't think I've ever been fully comfortable on one instrument for everything. If one horn really felt like my voice in one setting, it typically felt like a lot of work in the other setting.

I should note that I really only felt the need for two setups once I began playing with high level tenor trombonists.

I think of it like this:

commercial setup:

less weight to the articulation

easier access to high volume color (sounds louder than it necessarily is)

blends up to tenor trombones

physically lighter- probably going to be doing more notes per dollar, may as well make it easy

legit setup:

More weight to the articulation

more room for dynamics, usually at either end

blends with larger tenors, tuba

And obviously, I want them both to have great response, projection, blah blah blah.

Funny enough, both of the current horns are 10" rose bells with independent rotors, and couldn't be more different sounding.

Just due to them being different instruments, I have not found a way to make the same mouthpiece work on both. I'm not necessarily looking for a "legit" mouthpiece or a "commercial" mouthpiece, just something that makes the instrument work the best with me playing it.

Are there single horns that would cover everything? Sure. Plenty of people make it work, and I'm sure there will be comments saying as such. I personally haven't landed on anything that did it for me.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-01-19 9:23 p.m.

I've always pretty much just used one horn for everything...I've flirted with having single and double valve bell sections of the same horn, but that's as far as I've gone. However, that's not to say that I wouldn't have multiple bass setups for different things if I could justify it. Money no object, I'd love to have 3 basses - a snappy, colorful commercial horn, a dark Germanic orchestral horn, and something in the middle.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-01-19 9:52 p.m.

One horn, one mouthpiece. I'm just not good/dedicated enough to meet what I consider to be an acceptable standard of playing on multiple combinations. Safer to change my approach than change my gear.

Note that both Finetales and Burgerbob are professionals (I encourage you to check out their videos), I'm an amateur. Very different situations.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-01-19 11:19 p.m.

Like John, I'm also a one horn, one mouthpiece guy. I do change mutes depending on context. For orchestra/wind band/brass band I prefer metal mutes (Tom Crown copper bottom straight, Jo Ral cup) and for big band stuff I have H&B stone-lined straight and cup. I use a Sof-tone copy that I sewed up when I need a bucket.

If I could change anything about my setup it would be to have a way to go to a single valve setup in orchestra/wind band when the double valve is not needed. Brass band and big band lit today seems to always have something requiring a double valve.

modelerdc · by **modelerdc** » 2024-01-20 12:20 a.m.

This brings up a number of interesting points.

The most important variable is the player. For example in the US Conns and Holtons aren't used in Orchestras much but in the UK they are very popular for orchestra work. At least some of this can be attributed to different national styles, but in the age of jet setting conductors, I think more credit should be given for players adapting their playing style to the concept rather than crediting the equipment.

While it's nice to have a horn optimized for commercial work and another for legit, the easiest equipment change is the mouthpiece. For many years most bass trombone mouthpieces were about the same medium depth cup, except for the huge increase in depth of the now much imitated Schilke 60. Doug Elliott with his modular mouthpieces was about the only choice for matching different depth cups to the rim size of choice. Pick your size of rim and you could easily play a J or K cup for commercial or light orchestra work, and a L or M cup for large ensembles. Now Schilke, and Hammond offer bass bone mouthpieces that have the same rim in both medium and deep cups. Greg Black has introduced a GS cup to complement his Deeper G cup.

Years ago a friend of mine played 5th bass trombone in a well known college lab band. Later he was hired to play in a Casino show band. At the first break the 1st trombonist came over and asked him, "what do you have on your horn?" he said a Schilke 60. The first trombonist said, "get a 1 1/2G and join the section!" which he did.

Must keep the same mouthpiece? I have at the house Holton bass trombone bells in 9, 9.5, and 10 inches. The Holton bells sound lighter than Shires or Bach or Yamaha 613H. Nickel slide sounds brighter than Brass, and duo bore sounds darker fuller than standard bore. A Holton 9 inch bell, nickel slide Tr183 with a medium cup mouthpiece sounds a lot different from a Shires with a brass duo bore slide and a deep cup mouthpiece.

A friend of mine was playing weekly performances in a house band on TV. He was playing a Yamaha with a 10 inch bell, and said that the sound engineers had told him that his sound was hard to mic. So I loaned him a Holton Tr183 with 9 inch bell, and had the slot in second valve. A week later he was elated, said the Holton worked perfectly and sound engineers were happy and he wanted to trade his Yamaha to me for the Holton, which reluctantly I did.

Kbiggs · 2024-01-20 12:46 a.m.

Bach 50. Rotor section stays the same: open wrap from original stock Bach tubing,* with Instrument Innovations rotors, stock tuning slide.

Legit: 50 Corporation yellow bell with standard weight handslide with nickel crook, stock leadpipe.

Jazz/commercial: 50 Elkart gold brass bell, custom lightweight slide (yellow tubes, nickel crook), M/K sterling pipe.

Same mouthpiece: Griego Markey 87, sometimes a GB 1 5/16.

Same mutes: Tom Crown straights, Wick cups; occasionally a Beversdorf mute (really cool, rare, and under-rated), and a Jo Ral. Softone for the rare bucket.

It works. There’s always something better… if you have the money.

*With many thanks to John Sandhagen, Benn Hannsen, and Graham Middleton

Pezza · by **Pezza** » 2024-01-20 1:35 a.m.

I always use the same.

I was mainly a bass bone/ eupho player on a Bach 50, Giddings Chinook MP.

Now, due to injuries, I mainly play euph & tenor. King 5B, Wedge 1.5G, when I play bass.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2024-01-20 2:19 a.m.

One horn and one mouthpiece. Just play what you like, no need to make it complicated.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-01-20 3:10 a.m.

I currently have three bass trombones.

A modified Conn 112h which is my evening/night basement practice horn. I would also bring this for any gigs that might be a little less protected.

A Greenhoe TIS which currently I would be my choice for most large orchestra and brass/trombone ensemble stuff plus any (very little!) solo work that I do.

A single valve Conn 60h that I play for fun and use whenever I feel like it.

I would say they are all relatively flexible and could be used in most situations.

However if I had endless funds And approval at home, I would potentially add a dedicated jazz/bigband horn (70h with added valve or 73h maybe) and would have kept my German Throja bass for the occasional Alpine Symphony.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-01-20 7:39 a.m.

I've only got one real bass, and i mostly play it in the same configuration. But, I try to play the smallest setup possible, so I wind up playing parts that don't go below D on a big tenor. So I switch with range, not style, and do my best to make the equipment work in the style. I'm getting a plugin valve fitted to a big tenor to use essentially as a small bass for lighter stuff. Sometimes you need a darker more tuba-ish sound and sometimes a lighter more biting trombony sound. Most of my playing these days is big band or chamber music.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-01-20 8:01 a.m.

I have a classical and a commercial bass bell section, and switch the mouthpieces up depending on how much bass playing I'm doing. I gravitate towards smaller ones at the moment but if I were doing more bass playing, I tend to end up wanting to pull out larger ones. Right now I'm mostly using an SB106, but when I was basically fulltime bass, I was using an LB114.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-01-20 10:32 a.m.

[quote="modelerdc"]This brings up a number of interesting points.

The most important variable is the player. For example in the US Conns and Holtons aren't used in Orchestras much but in the UK they are very popular for orchestra work. At least some of this can be attributed to different national styles, but in the age of jet setting conductors, I think more credit should be given for players adapting their playing style to the concept rather than crediting the equipment.

While it's nice to have a horn optimized for commercial work and another for legit, the easiest equipment change is the mouthpiece. For many years most bass trombone mouthpieces were about the same medium depth cup, except for the huge increase in depth of the now much imitated Schilke 60. Doug Elliott with his modular mouthpieces was about the only choice for matching different depth cups to the rim size of choice. Pick your size of rim and you could easily play a J or K cup for commercial or light orchestra work, and a L or M cup for large ensembles. Now Schilke, and Hammond offer bass bone mouthpieces that have the same rim in both medium and deep cups. Greg Black has introduced a GS cup to complement his Deeper G cup.

Years ago a friend of mine played 5th bass trombone in a well known college lab band. Later he was hired to play in a Casino show band. At the first break the 1st trombonist came over and asked him, "what do you have on your horn?" he said a Schilke 60. The first trombonist said, "get a 1 1/2G and join the section!" which he did.

Must keep the same mouthpiece? I have at the house Holton bass trombone bells in 9, 9.5, and 10 inches. The Holton bells sound lighter than Shires or Bach or Yamaha 613H. Nickel slide sounds brighter than Brass, and duo bore sounds darker fuller than standard bore. A Holton 9 inch bell, nickel slide Tr183 with a medium cup mouthpiece sounds a lot different from a Shires with a brass duo bore slide and a deep cup mouthpiece.

A friend of mine was playing weekly performances in a house band on TV. He was playing a Yamaha with a 10 inch bell, and said that the sound engineers had told him that his sound was hard to mic. So I loaned him a Holton Tr183 with 9 inch bell, and had the slot in second valve. A week later he was elated, said the Holton worked perfectly and sound engineers were happy and he wanted to trade his Yamaha to me for the Holton, which reluctantly I did.[/quote]

A lot of truth here. For me, regarding "commercial" playing, is not light or bright. It's all about response. What instrument/mouthpiece combination has immediate response? One can have a lighter setup, whatever that is to the individual, but if one is behind the beat due to response issues it just ruins the ensemble. What can cause response issues? Player error, a certain instrument, a large mouthpiece just to name a few. All of my bass trombones are 1 brand, yet, they each play somewhat differently. BUT they each respond quickly and they fit it every scenario.

Reidclag · by **Reidclag** » 2024-01-20 11:20 a.m.

Back in my college days I changed mouthpieces and/or leadpipes for specific ensembles, since I went to a smaller program I was in a lot of stuff at the same time (wind ensemble, jazz band, orchestra, brass quintet *slide tuba*, trombone choir, etc.). Though over the years I've switched to more of a "tools in a tool belt" way of thinking, using whatever works best for the situation and not trying to use what "should" work best. I got caught up with what mouthpiece/leadpipe would work in my head and didn't rely on my body and ears to tell me if it was working or not. It really helped once I changed my thought process on what equipment to use.

Overall I think it's nice to have a few different equipment options if you're playing in a variety of ensembles, the role of a bass trombone changes quite a lot depending on what's needed.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-01-20 11:24 a.m.

Immediate response is a must for any musical setting. And I've never truly understood the idea that an "orchestral" trombone should sound so thick and dark that you can't manipulate the tone color or articulation. When I play more "commercial" music (whatever that means) I typically use the same instrument I play for symphonic repertoire.

That said, as a primarily orchestral American bass trombone player, I need enough thickness and breadth to the basic sound of my primary instrument that I feel it doesn't respond particularly well when I need to play very light in a mixed-instrument chamber music setting. The best example is Stravinsky's L'Histoire du Soldat, which I play every few years, but there are others. For that kind of playing I like to use a lighter instrument that I can keep very lean and get some brilliance at lower dynamics. In my old Shires set-ups or now the Bachs I'm playing, the simple adjustment I can make is a light weight nickel slide and a shallower cup mouthpiece. A gold or red brass bell can also make the tone color a little more malleable at lower dynamics than yellow. YMMV.

For smaller orchestras, usually with choruses and especially with alto trombone on top of the section, I like to go smaller with both the mouthpiece and the instrument. This also allows easier response and tone color variance at lower dynamics. Mine is a Conn 70H, but I think I could accomplish the same thing with other Conns or maybe something like a Holton 183. I used to have a Shires set-up that did OK, but the Conn was always easier because the tapers are simply smaller.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-01-20 11:49 a.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]It works. There’s always something better… if you have the money.[/quote]

This is all it boils down to.

The expectations of the modern bass trombone in different settings aren't so extreme between different styles that you absolutely need 2 very different horns for jazz and classical like you do with tenors. Bass trombone is generally just bass trombone. And as long as your bass setup isn't crazy bright or crazy dark and can play from pedal C to high C with consistent sound and volume, you can absolutely just play one setup for everything. And many do!

BUT...if you want to and can justify the cost, you can get even better results in each setting by specializing. A snappy, colorful bass trombone with a more compact/focused sound will blend better with small tenors and a punchy bari sax, while a horn with a broader/darker sound will blend better with large tenors and a 6/4 C tuba. Then there are extra-small bass trombones like the King 1480, which are great for downsizing situations while still sounding like a bass trombone. Funnily enough, one of my semi-regular classical gigs is one where either my German quartposaune or my 1480 are the best choice. Neither my large tenor or my usual bass work very well in that group, and if I have to use one of them it makes my job harder.

marccromme · 2024-01-20 4:24 p.m.

I could do most of my bass bone playing with just one instrument, the Conn 112H, but it is easier to adapt to different musical requirements by swapping hardware. My choices are these

Big Band

Conn 112H with inline Hagmann, GB 1 5/16 or GB 1 3/8

Fast snappy response, good punsh and growl in lower registers, easy high register. Good rythmical response in the pedal range too. It cuts more effordless through saxes and electric bass, than all my other bass bones, and charts go from pedal Eb to C 4 ledger lines above staff, This horn wins in range, flexibility ease and response here.

Synfony and concert band

Elkhard Holton10" Bell, Bach 50 slide, independent Thayers, GB 1 1/4 or GB 1 5/16

Lovely warm and colorfully sound, blends well with huge tubas and large bore tenors. but needs more sweat and air, don't have the need for same range or crazy jumps in and out of pedal range, so I can afford the extra air and sweat. But mellow and broad sound.

Chamber music and small ensemble

German Kruspe independent with Meinl Schmidt rotary, German mouthpiece, and the longest and slimmest of leadpioes I have. And Krans.

Very easy to change tonal color, very expressive in low volumen, almost tenor like in high register. Valve register more stuffy than the other two basses, but perfect horn for brilliance at lower volumen. Not very forgiving, need special practice to work perfect.

Marching band and street performances

Yamaha YBL 321 single valve

Sounds good, plays great, less weight, don't need the second valve here, and I will not cry much when or if it is destroyed by accident

Also a Yamaha 4 valve 321 Eb non compensated tuba for marching. Its lighter, and I can afford buying another used one if it gets kicked over.

Project horn, I have two Conn 110H, single valve, which play lighter, more King 5B like, than my Conn 112H. Want to combine the original 112H valve section with one of the 110H bells, and a Conn 47/62 slide, half tenor, half bass, to build a King5B on steroids, for the rare occasion I want a very light bass setup. Will probably be much fun to play with the Laskey 85MD in my drawer.

Will keep the other Conn 110H as is, and have it in my summer cottage for practicing.

Brass Band and Concert band

Meinl Weston EB tuba 5 valve

Yamaha Custom Euph

... cause its fun to play them too. Better melodies than the bass bone voice. ..

Kevbach33 · by **Kevbach33** » 2024-01-20 5:37 p.m.

My bass trombone is generally for one style: big band. I don't change mouthpieces or leadpipe, even if I'm still tinkering on that front to find the right balance of efficiency and access to pedals. However, I can make it work in a legit setting as long as I change my approach to how I play it.

That said, tuba is my legit instrument of choice.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-01-20 9:19 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Immediate response is a must for any musical setting. And I've never truly understood the idea that an "orchestral" trombone should sound so thick and dark that you can't manipulate the tone color or articulation. When I play more "commercial" music (whatever that means) I typically use the same instrument I play for symphonic repertoire.

That said, as a primarily orchestral American bass trombone player, I need enough thickness and breadth to the basic sound of my primary instrument that I feel it doesn't respond particularly well when I need to play very light in a mixed-instrument chamber music setting. The best example is Stravinsky's L'Histoire du Soldat, which I play every few years, but there are others. For that kind of playing I like to use a lighter instrument that I can keep very lean and get some brilliance at lower dynamics. In my old Shires set-ups or now the Bachs I'm playing, the simple adjustment I can make is a light weight nickel slide and a shallower cup mouthpiece. A gold or red brass bell can also make the tone color a little more malleable at lower dynamics than yellow. YMMV.

For smaller orchestras, usually with choruses and especially with alto trombone on top of the section, I like to go smaller with both the mouthpiece and the instrument. This also allows easier response and tone color variance at lower dynamics. Mine is a Conn 70H, but I think I could accomplish the same thing with other Conns or maybe something like a Holton 183. I used to have a Shires set-up that did OK, but the Conn was always easier because the tapers are simply smaller.[/quote]
Yes Gabe immediate response is a must. Sadly it doesn’t always happen.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-01-20 10:29 p.m.

So, could I play one horn for everything? Probably. I’d choose one of the double sections and just blow in the little end and change me to make it work. BUT, I have a lot of horns. Big stuff that doesn’t need the double? That brings out the single 50. Smaller, group, light work? That brings out a 45. Something where I just want to have the snappier Holton flare? Sure, just having some fun here. Only thing that I actually feel I NEED, I bring something big with the dual bore slide if I’m playing a slide tuba type set.

I rarely bring a different horn because I don’t think I can do it in what I have, I bring a different horn because it will be more fun for me and appropriate to what is being asked.

Cheers,

Andy

EdwardSolomon · 2024-01-21 5:53 a.m.

I switch according to need. Most of the time, I use the same instrument (Elkhart Conn 62H) and mouthpiece, but will switch to a 70H sometimes, or a G/D bass. Very rarely, I get to use my vintage German trombones (B flat/F or F bass) and on special occasions, the contrabass comes out of the case.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-01-21 1:48 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="231623" time="1705729561" user_id="172">It works. There’s always something better… if you have the money.[/quote]

This is all it boils down to.

The expectations of the modern bass trombone in different settings aren't so extreme between different styles that you absolutely need 2 very different horns for jazz and classical like you do with tenors. Bass trombone is generally just bass trombone. And as long as your bass setup isn't crazy bright or crazy dark and can play from pedal C to high C with consistent sound and volume, you can absolutely just play one setup for everything. And many do!

BUT...if you want to and can justify the cost, you can get even better results in each setting by specializing. A snappy, colorful bass trombone with a more compact/focused sound will blend better with small tenors and a punchy bari sax, while a horn with a broader/darker sound will blend better with large tenors and a 6/4 C tuba. Then there are extra-small bass trombones like the King 1480, which are great for downsizing situations while still sounding like a bass trombone. Funnily enough, one of my semi-regular classical gigs is one where either my German quartposaune or my 1480 are the best choice. Neither my large tenor or my usual bass work very well in that group, and if I have to use one of them it makes my job harder.
</QUOTE>

Yes. Horses for courses.

If I had the dispensable income, I would probably buy a Conn or a King (or something similar) bass for jazz and commercial stuff. More immediate response, lighter weight. Perhaps I’ll look at the Wessex designed by Chris Stearn as a candidate.

blast · by **blast** » 2024-01-21 3:36 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="231653" time="1705769352" user_id="136">

This is all it boils down to.

The expectations of the modern bass trombone in different settings aren't so extreme between different styles that you absolutely need 2 very different horns for jazz and classical like you do with tenors. Bass trombone is generally just bass trombone. And as long as your bass setup isn't crazy bright or crazy dark and can play from pedal C to high C with consistent sound and volume, you can absolutely just play one setup for everything. And many do!

BUT...if you want to and can justify the cost, you can get even better results in each setting by specializing. A snappy, colorful bass trombone with a more compact/focused sound will blend better with small tenors and a punchy bari sax, while a horn with a broader/darker sound will blend better with large tenors and a 6/4 C tuba. Then there are extra-small bass trombones like the King 1480, which are great for downsizing situations while still sounding like a bass trombone. Funnily enough, one of my semi-regular classical gigs is one where either my German quartposaune or my 1480 are the best choice. Neither my large tenor or my usual bass work very well in that group, and if I have to use one of them it makes my job harder.[/quote]

Yes. Horses for courses.

If I had the dispensable income, I would probably buy a Conn or a King (or something similar) bass for jazz and commercial stuff. More immediate response, lighter weight. Perhaps I’ll look at the Wessex designed by Chris Stearn as a candidate.
</QUOTE>
I've heard of build issues with those, so I would be reluctant to unreservedly recommend getting one unless you can try before you buy.

trombonedemon · by **trombonedemon** » 2024-01-21 5:00 p.m.

I have one Bass bone. I've modded it because, custom horns are out my price range. I can change my sound depending on the music or whatever the conductor wants. I'm up <EMOJI seq="1f4a9" tseq="1f4a9">💩</EMOJI> poops<EMOJI seq="1f4a9" tseq="1f4a9">💩</EMOJI> creek, if it breaks though. Still can't justify the cost with the repair man 5 minutes down the road. I'm still wanting another basstrombone, though.

ZacharyThornton · by **ZacharyThornton** » 2024-01-22 1:15 a.m.

I don’t. I have lots of other mouthpieces and a single bore slide. I have used the same mouthpiece/ horn combo for the last two years from small jazz combos to 80 piece orchestras. I believe my set up is unmatched for me. I am very lucky.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2024-01-23 10:44 a.m.

I was using an Elliott K.K8 cup/shank for big band and L.L10 for orchestra. The L is a bigger darker sound, but I absolutely love playing the K8 as it's so efficient. I'm leaning now towards just using the K for everything as I get a nice even response and it's less work. I'm even finding the lower range, even pedals, easier with the K because it takes less air and it's easier to center. I do have an L8 shank for the L cup as well, but I still like the K8 better. The way I see it, I don't play in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra enough to justify using such large equipment.

BassBoneBrian20 · by **BassBoneBrian20** » 2024-01-23 4:18 p.m.

For me personally, I use the same setup between wind ensemble and jazz. Of course the main thing I change is just sound concept and approach to the music. I find that for bass trombone players can achieve one genre sound that their instrument fits better, but the latter is achievable with some experimentation and time

Switching equipment often, in my opinion, can pose problems for getting both dialed in consistently. Getting other instruments to sound as good as your main horn is possible, just spend equal amounts of time and develop different concepts for each!

Mertelstein · by **Mertelstein** » 2024-01-23 4:51 p.m.

I’ve never had that much cash so always had to make do with one - even when playing full time, I played on a Duo Gravis in all ensembles (though most work was pit / theatre work or big bands). I’d even use it on 2nd in an orchestra occasionally. And always with a 1 1/4G.

After I gave up full-time playing and got a “sensible” job my DG got stolen from our flat in London. With the insurance pay out and reflecting the fact I’d got more amateur work on tenor I got a new 88H and (with the cash left over) a second-hand 73H. That has been my go-to bass bone for years, particularly recently when playing mainly bass once again.

I have recently re-acquired a DG. Now I have two horns which basically are classed as doing “the same thing” on this forum, but which from an amateur perspective probably suit different ensembles. But I find myself gravitating more and more to the DG, even in orchestras. Sure it takes a bit more effort to get a blended sound without too much bite, but the ease of flow through the valves compared to the Conn more than makes for it.

As for mouthpiece, years playing tenor didn’t help and I took a while to settle back on the mouthpiece and guess what? Back to a 1 1/4G again!

All that to say - needs must when the devil drives. I’d love to have many bass bones, but even when I have two, I’m still preferring just one…

(PS I do have quite a stable of horns now. The advantage of having a parent who was a full-time trombone player who passed them on when he retired…!

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Bass bone players - how much do you change your kit?