King 3B vs 3BF - any difference?
- Bard
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Jul 16, 2018
I am considering replacing my old King 3B with something newer and wonder if there are any differences between King 3B and 3BF when it comes to how it plays and sounds.
A 3BF is clearly heavier than a 3B so I wonder if it has anything to say that that a certain mass is added to the 3B-structure. Without being an expert in these things I would assume that the bell vibrates when you play, or at least there is interaction between the sound waves and the metal and that this will be different if the bell is part of a heavier structure.
So I wonder if anyone has experience (or thoughts) on this topic.
I play mostly in salsa- or reggea-band so I really do not have the need for the lower register for gigs but it would be good to have when I practice as you can do a lot more different excercises if you have the F-valve.
So if it is more difficult to play or require more practice (for instance as the Silversonic 3B does compared to a brass 3B) then I think for me the 3B would be the best choice.
A 3BF is clearly heavier than a 3B so I wonder if it has anything to say that that a certain mass is added to the 3B-structure. Without being an expert in these things I would assume that the bell vibrates when you play, or at least there is interaction between the sound waves and the metal and that this will be different if the bell is part of a heavier structure.
So I wonder if anyone has experience (or thoughts) on this topic.
I play mostly in salsa- or reggea-band so I really do not have the need for the lower register for gigs but it would be good to have when I practice as you can do a lot more different excercises if you have the F-valve.
So if it is more difficult to play or require more practice (for instance as the Silversonic 3B does compared to a brass 3B) then I think for me the 3B would be the best choice.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
3BF are typically not much different than a 3B in my experience. If you like the 3B you’ll probably like a 3BF. The F attachment also doesn’t add much weight either. It’s a good design that is pretty easily balanced. Some F attachment designs feel heavier than others, but the King rotors don’t give me the perception of weight.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I have a 1973 King 3B and a 1972 King 3BF - about as close to "all other things being equal" as you can get. They play and sound EXACTLY the same. You can swap the slides and they still play exactly the same. The only noticeable difference (apart from that the 3BF has a valve) is that the 3BF's lacquer is more orange than the 3B's. Both horns can be absolute screamers (amazing salsa/funk horns) or "light legit" horns equally well.
You'll get lots of different opinions as there are so many 3Bs out there, but to me my 2 horns made less than a year apart are pretty solid proof that the valve does not noticeably affect how the 3B plays, unless it's misaligned or otherwise messed up in some way. An individual 3B might not play the same as an individual 3BF, but I think those differences are due more to when and by whom they were put together at the factory, rather than whether there is a valve or not.
As an aside, I also have a 1990s King 607, which is essentially a 3BF with a .525 slide. It plays and sounds just like a bigger version of my 3B and 3BF. No surprises in blow, intonation, or sound.
You'll get lots of different opinions as there are so many 3Bs out there, but to me my 2 horns made less than a year apart are pretty solid proof that the valve does not noticeably affect how the 3B plays, unless it's misaligned or otherwise messed up in some way. An individual 3B might not play the same as an individual 3BF, but I think those differences are due more to when and by whom they were put together at the factory, rather than whether there is a valve or not.
As an aside, I also have a 1990s King 607, which is essentially a 3BF with a .525 slide. It plays and sounds just like a bigger version of my 3B and 3BF. No surprises in blow, intonation, or sound.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Just get the 3BF. It's something that is basically unique in small bore world, and it rocks.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Finetales"]You'll get lots of different opinions as there are so many 3Bs out there, but to me my 2 horns made less than a year apart are pretty solid proof that the valve does not noticeably affect how the 3B plays, unless it's misaligned or otherwise messed up in some way. An individual 3B might not play the same as an individual 3BF, but I think those differences are due more to when and by whom they were put together at the factory, rather than whether there is a valve or not.[/quote]
More circle than Venn diagram.
Did you have one and then later select another to match, or have a biig day at DJ's? (/time travel to the loopy factory?)
[I suspect the whole King concept lends itself to consistency. Define the feel up front with a tight leadpipe, and then the horn gets bigger, with minimized bore gaps and as few soft solder joints as possible. The 20s/30s catalogs were very proud of that last point; if the parts are in spec, the horn will likely be in spec. Versus something like Bach, with choke/turbulence points/reversals and way more left to final assembly. When it works as intended, it's great, but there's much greater potential for anything between benign character variation and terminal suckitude.]
More circle than Venn diagram.
Did you have one and then later select another to match, or have a biig day at DJ's? (/time travel to the loopy factory?)
[I suspect the whole King concept lends itself to consistency. Define the feel up front with a tight leadpipe, and then the horn gets bigger, with minimized bore gaps and as few soft solder joints as possible. The 20s/30s catalogs were very proud of that last point; if the parts are in spec, the horn will likely be in spec. Versus something like Bach, with choke/turbulence points/reversals and way more left to final assembly. When it works as intended, it's great, but there's much greater potential for anything between benign character variation and terminal suckitude.]
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I will say, having owned 4 3B/Fs and a couple straight 3Bs, the ones with F attachment are more variable. I'm not sure why but some are much stuffier open and through the valve than others. I had a MINT H.N. White 3B/F that was simply not nearly as good as my current, very beat up '70s 3B/F. I also had one with a flat 3rd partial.
If you find a good one, they are great horns- and I use my 3B/F more than almost any of my other trombones.
If you find a good one, they are great horns- and I use my 3B/F more than almost any of my other trombones.
- Briande
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Jan 12, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]I use my 3B/F more than almost any of my other trombones.[/quote]
Wow. Your last sentence surprised me! Thought you were mostly a bass player.
Wow. Your last sentence surprised me! Thought you were mostly a bass player.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
"our Venn diagram's a one circle"
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]Did you have one and then later select another to match, or have a biig day at DJ's? (/time travel to the loopy factory?)[/quote]
Neither!
I got the 3B first in person at DJ's, then I found the 3BF years later for a very low price on eBay and snapped it up. I figured it would be similar to my 3B as they were both loopy, but I was certainly not expecting it to be essentially a carbon copy of my existing 3B.
Neither!
I got the 3B first in person at DJ's, then I found the 3BF years later for a very low price on eBay and snapped it up. I figured it would be similar to my 3B as they were both loopy, but I was certainly not expecting it to be essentially a carbon copy of my existing 3B.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
I’m selling a 3BF. <EMOJI seq="1f604" tseq="1f604">😄</EMOJI>
- Bard
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Jul 16, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]I’m selling a 3BF. <EMOJI seq="1f604" tseq="1f604">😄</EMOJI>[/quote]
Thank you for the tip. PM sent.
Thank you for the tip. PM sent.
- Bard
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Jul 16, 2018
Thanks for all your comments and your sharing of experiences.
This was very useful and I think I'll look primarily for a 3BF. :-)
If I were to summarize one should expect the 3B and 3BF to be similar. In other words - that similarity would be the "normal" case. Regardless of the fact that the designs are somewhat different. And that differences due to manufacturing might of course occur.
This was very useful and I think I'll look primarily for a 3BF. :-)
If I were to summarize one should expect the 3B and 3BF to be similar. In other words - that similarity would be the "normal" case. Regardless of the fact that the designs are somewhat different. And that differences due to manufacturing might of course occur.
- mazman
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jul 05, 2023
I have both. I played the 3BF for 40 years. My 3BF is from the 86-7 or so and my 3B is from 1978. My 3B is markedly better for me than my 3BF.
- KingThings
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Feb 13, 2024
I take it a 3B slide will work on a 3BF then with no issues (I have a 3B and have a chance to pick up a 3BF bell).
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="KingThings"]I take it a 3B slide will work on a 3BF then with no issues (I have a 3B and have a chance to pick up a 3BF bell).[/quote]
yup!
yup!
- KingThings
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Feb 13, 2024
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="KingThings" post_id="237390" time="1710394189" user_id="17652">
I take it a 3B slide will work on a 3BF then with no issues (I have a 3B and have a chance to pick up a 3BF bell).[/quote]
yup!
</QUOTE>
Yay....thanks.
(Oh and when are you doing a full demo video of your 1485 "dream horn"? Some of of your viewers may be clamouring.........)
I take it a 3B slide will work on a 3BF then with no issues (I have a 3B and have a chance to pick up a 3BF bell).[/quote]
yup!
</QUOTE>
Yay....thanks.
(Oh and when are you doing a full demo video of your 1485 "dream horn"? Some of of your viewers may be clamouring.........)
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="KingThings"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="237391" time="1710394279" user_id="3131">
yup![/quote]
Yay....thanks.
(Oh and when are you doing a full demo video of your 1485 "dream horn"? Some of of your viewers may be clamouring.........)
</QUOTE>
Right after I try my new 3B+F at work!
yup![/quote]
Yay....thanks.
(Oh and when are you doing a full demo video of your 1485 "dream horn"? Some of of your viewers may be clamouring.........)
</QUOTE>
Right after I try my new 3B+F at work!
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"].508 vs .525[/quote]
3BF is a 3B with F (.508). The .525 horn is the 3B+F (2125)
3BF is a 3B with F (.508). The .525 horn is the 3B+F (2125)
- KingThings
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Feb 13, 2024
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="KingThings" post_id="237670" time="1710654686" user_id="17652">
Yay....thanks.
(Oh and when are you doing a full demo video of your 1485 "dream horn"? Some of of your viewers may be clamouring.........)[/quote]
Right after I try my new 3B+F at work!
</QUOTE>
Ah....that should be interesting as well. I love my straight 3B and when I get the F attachment going it should be quite versatile. Never tried the medium bore 3B+.
Yay....thanks.
(Oh and when are you doing a full demo video of your 1485 "dream horn"? Some of of your viewers may be clamouring.........)[/quote]
Right after I try my new 3B+F at work!
</QUOTE>
Ah....that should be interesting as well. I love my straight 3B and when I get the F attachment going it should be quite versatile. Never tried the medium bore 3B+.
- Bard
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Jul 16, 2018
Just an update on this. I have now bought a King 3BF from Mighty Quinn and am eagerly awaiting it's arrival. It is on it's way across the Atlantic now and DHL says I can pick it up tomorrow. 8-) Will be interesting to compare it against my old King 3B from 1977...