Changes in teaching over past 50 years?
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I got my old Schlossberg out this morning. I bought it nearly a half century ago from Northwest Music, long since gone. I see someone checked off several exercises, but I’m not quite sure which of my teachers had me working from it.
It got me to thinking. What significant changes - if any, I guess - have there been in trombone pedagogy over the last 50 years?
It got me to thinking. What significant changes - if any, I guess - have there been in trombone pedagogy over the last 50 years?
- chouston3
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Dec 19, 2023
A big change over the past 15 years has been access to recordings. When I was in high school 20 years ago, it was hard for me to find trombone cds.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Nothing to do with material, but one big change has been the modern coddling of students' emotions. You don't see old school instruction anymore.
I studied with Roy Main for several years and have some tough memories. E.g., one week I didn't practice the assigned etude and went into my lesson faking it. Roy wouldn't let me get three notes out without stopping me and laying into me harshly. It was a miserable hour, and I went home from that lesson in tears. :weep: :weep: :weep: But then I worked my butt off on the etude, and the following week I played it perfectly. Roy just checked it off and assigned a new one without comment.
"Wait a minute," I said. "Last week you raked me over the coals for a full hour. I left in tears. Today I played it perfectly, and you can't even give me a little 'atta girl' to recognize my improvement after making me cry last week?"
"If you want compliments, go play for your mother," Roy said flatly. "It's my job to find your weak areas and make them strong so that you're a good, well-rounded, professional musician who can play the entire instrument; not to stroke your ego and make you feel good when you do something right."
Yikes.
Another story about Roy Main comes from Andy Martin, who studied with Roy about the same time I did. He says one day he played an etude for Roy, and then Roy picked up his horn to show him how it's done, and then asked Andy what he heard when Roy played it.
"Well," Andy said, "I played it in tune and you didn't." :o
That, says Andy, was a very bad decision on his part. :lol:
Roy's style could be a bit harsh, but eminently sensible, and he was also a great teacher and we had some good times together, often playing duets during lessons. And he made me a good player. Andy Martin somehow became a good player, too, with this teaching style. I'm told that today such an approach would be unacceptable. So that's a change in teaching pedagogy.
I studied with Roy Main for several years and have some tough memories. E.g., one week I didn't practice the assigned etude and went into my lesson faking it. Roy wouldn't let me get three notes out without stopping me and laying into me harshly. It was a miserable hour, and I went home from that lesson in tears. :weep: :weep: :weep: But then I worked my butt off on the etude, and the following week I played it perfectly. Roy just checked it off and assigned a new one without comment.
"Wait a minute," I said. "Last week you raked me over the coals for a full hour. I left in tears. Today I played it perfectly, and you can't even give me a little 'atta girl' to recognize my improvement after making me cry last week?"
"If you want compliments, go play for your mother," Roy said flatly. "It's my job to find your weak areas and make them strong so that you're a good, well-rounded, professional musician who can play the entire instrument; not to stroke your ego and make you feel good when you do something right."
Yikes.
Another story about Roy Main comes from Andy Martin, who studied with Roy about the same time I did. He says one day he played an etude for Roy, and then Roy picked up his horn to show him how it's done, and then asked Andy what he heard when Roy played it.
"Well," Andy said, "I played it in tune and you didn't." :o
That, says Andy, was a very bad decision on his part. :lol:
Roy's style could be a bit harsh, but eminently sensible, and he was also a great teacher and we had some good times together, often playing duets during lessons. And he made me a good player. Andy Martin somehow became a good player, too, with this teaching style. I'm told that today such an approach would be unacceptable. So that's a change in teaching pedagogy.
- Redthunder
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
Choosing not to yell at a student isn't "coddling". If a teacher today isn't capable of instilling discipline or good practice habits without yelling, beratement, or fear, maybe that teacher just isn't that good at what they do. And that includes when the student isn't practicing what you want them to.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Redthunder"]Choosing not to yell at a student isn't "coddling". If a teacher today isn't capable of instilling discipline or good practice habits without yelling, beratement, or fear, maybe that teacher just isn't that good at what they do. And that includes when the student isn't practicing what you want them to.[/quote]
I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Roy "yelled" or "berated." I think you're inserting your own issues into my post. And on another level, I think you're proving my point, that such a "tougher" old school style is unacceptable anymore. Personally, though, I respect it.
Roy also taught me not to work on things I was already good at, but to focus on areas where I sucked. He thought that practicing shouldn't be an exercise in enjoying how well I played, but one where I felt like I was struggling most of the time. That, too, would probably be unacceptable today, as people want to be in their feelz all the time.
I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Roy "yelled" or "berated." I think you're inserting your own issues into my post. And on another level, I think you're proving my point, that such a "tougher" old school style is unacceptable anymore. Personally, though, I respect it.
Roy also taught me not to work on things I was already good at, but to focus on areas where I sucked. He thought that practicing shouldn't be an exercise in enjoying how well I played, but one where I felt like I was struggling most of the time. That, too, would probably be unacceptable today, as people want to be in their feelz all the time.
- Redthunder
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Roy "yelled." I think you're inserting your own issues into my post. And on another level, I think you're proving my point, that such old school "harsh" style is unacceptable anymore.[/quote]
My bad, sorry for inferring that he yelled. Instead he just made you cry. How he chose to do that, I guess that's a trade secret. :idk:
You opened your post with how you feel that students are coddled, so I don't think I'm the only one projecting an issue. There are more talented young people than ever out there playing trombone at an extremely high level, maybe they didn't have enough lessons like yours.
Roy wouldn't let me get three notes out without stopping me and laying into me harshly. It was a miserable hour, and I went home from that lesson in tears. :weep: :weep: :weep: But then I worked my butt off on the etude, and the following week I played it perfectly. Roy just checked it off and assigned a new one without comment.
"Wait a minute," I said. "Last week you raked me over the coals for a full hour. I left in tears. Today I played it perfectly, and you can't even give me a little 'atta girl' to recognize my improvement after making me cry last week?"
My bad, sorry for inferring that he yelled. Instead he just made you cry. How he chose to do that, I guess that's a trade secret. :idk:
You opened your post with how you feel that students are coddled, so I don't think I'm the only one projecting an issue. There are more talented young people than ever out there playing trombone at an extremely high level, maybe they didn't have enough lessons like yours.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I don’t think that approach was unique to Mr. Main but I can’t think of any of my teachers (trombone, guitar, piano) who ever treated me that way. One of the Uni’s piano profs had a reputation for being pretty tough on his students. For some reason, he seemed to be proud of that.
I’ll admit that, as a soccer coach, my 14 and 15 year olds could quickly bring out the worst in me.
We’ll put “no coddling” in the changes column.
Access to recordings is huge.
I’ll admit that, as a soccer coach, my 14 and 15 year olds could quickly bring out the worst in me.
We’ll put “no coddling” in the changes column.
Access to recordings is huge.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="Bach5G"]Access to recordings is huge.[/quote]
And tuners. I was in college before I bought my first electronic tuner. Now they are as ubiquitous as phones.
And tuners. I was in college before I bought my first electronic tuner. Now they are as ubiquitous as phones.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Redthunder"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="233895" time="1707768970" user_id="16498">
I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Roy "yelled." I think you're inserting your own issues into my post. And on another level, I think you're proving my point, that such old school "harsh" style is unacceptable anymore.[/quote]
My bad, sorry for inferring that he yelled. Instead he just made you cry. How he chose to do that, I guess that's a trade secret. :idk:
You opened your post with how you feel that students are coddled, so I don't think I'm the only one projecting an issue. There are more talented young people than ever out there playing trombone at an extremely high level, maybe they didn't have enough lessons like yours.
</QUOTE>
Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.
I don't see anywhere in my post where I said Roy "yelled." I think you're inserting your own issues into my post. And on another level, I think you're proving my point, that such old school "harsh" style is unacceptable anymore.[/quote]
Roy wouldn't let me get three notes out without stopping me and laying into me harshly. It was a miserable hour, and I went home from that lesson in tears. :weep: :weep: :weep: But then I worked my butt off on the etude, and the following week I played it perfectly. Roy just checked it off and assigned a new one without comment.
"Wait a minute," I said. "Last week you raked me over the coals for a full hour. I left in tears. Today I played it perfectly, and you can't even give me a little 'atta girl' to recognize my improvement after making me cry last week?"
My bad, sorry for inferring that he yelled. Instead he just made you cry. How he chose to do that, I guess that's a trade secret. :idk:
You opened your post with how you feel that students are coddled, so I don't think I'm the only one projecting an issue. There are more talented young people than ever out there playing trombone at an extremely high level, maybe they didn't have enough lessons like yours.
</QUOTE>
Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.
- Mr412
- Posts: 207
- Joined: May 20, 2022
When I was growing up, there were bright students taking lessons from the top regional non-classical performer in the city. You only got one chance at not being prepared for a lesson or "you were out".
When I was taking water-color painting lessons, if I went too far, my instructor would stop me and break my brush, then apologize for not doing it sooner.
A trombone instructor who helped me tremendously when others couldn't, stopped me after the first few notes and told me point blank that we could not progress unless I modified how I played notes below F in the staff. He demonstrated to me what I was doing wrong and then how it should be done and sent me home. I wasn't to return until I either had it right or was stuck. In three months, I went back - retrained according to his standards and to his satisfaction. We then progressed very quickly.
I respect teachers like the above examples. I may not like it at the time, though. If I need to learn something, I would rather go to a drill instructor than to someone who is afraid to be too harsh or even simply tell me "no". Let's just cut right to the chase and everybody is better off.
And OBTW, IMO, you didn't earn the snark. You were being honest. Shame on you. LOL!
When I was taking water-color painting lessons, if I went too far, my instructor would stop me and break my brush, then apologize for not doing it sooner.
A trombone instructor who helped me tremendously when others couldn't, stopped me after the first few notes and told me point blank that we could not progress unless I modified how I played notes below F in the staff. He demonstrated to me what I was doing wrong and then how it should be done and sent me home. I wasn't to return until I either had it right or was stuck. In three months, I went back - retrained according to his standards and to his satisfaction. We then progressed very quickly.
I respect teachers like the above examples. I may not like it at the time, though. If I need to learn something, I would rather go to a drill instructor than to someone who is afraid to be too harsh or even simply tell me "no". Let's just cut right to the chase and everybody is better off.
And OBTW, IMO, you didn't earn the snark. You were being honest. Shame on you. LOL!
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Seems to me that there's more of an expectation that teachers have advanced degrees (including courses in pedagogy). Fifty years ago, just being a really good trombone player (with no degree at all) was sometimes enough.
I think there's more of a realization that a particular type of equipment or way of doing things working for one really good player doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone.
I think there's more of a realization that a particular type of equipment or way of doing things working for one really good player doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
“ I don’t think that approach was unique to Mr. Main but I can’t think of any of my teachers (trombone, guitar, piano) who ever treated me that way.”
OTOH maybe that’s why I ended up in law school.
OTOH maybe that’s why I ended up in law school.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I absolutely loathe the old school "tough" way of teaching.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
I'm far away from being 50 years old... But I still had at least one of those what you call 'old school' teachers who completely embarrassed and destroyed me in our first lesson so that I was close to tears too. I probably don't have to tell anyone that it's not a great feeling at all. But most importantly, I know that you can still be very critical without being passively aggressive all the time. There's a possibility to make the students feel like: Damn, I really need to work on that, but I'm also confident I can do it and I know what to work on. If your teaching is factually correct and students are getting better with your advise, critics and guidance, that's what counts the most.
And I can still interrupt (and I sometimes do!) my students after the played one note of a piece an etude. Today I went through a Bach piece with one of my students like basically bar by bar, sometimes even note by note and interrupted like non-stop for 40mins. At the end of the lesson he knew what was going on and what areas of technique and the piece itself needed attention and work and he was motivated to work on it. And I can assure you he didn't cry ;)
And I can still interrupt (and I sometimes do!) my students after the played one note of a piece an etude. Today I went through a Bach piece with one of my students like basically bar by bar, sometimes even note by note and interrupted like non-stop for 40mins. At the end of the lesson he knew what was going on and what areas of technique and the piece itself needed attention and work and he was motivated to work on it. And I can assure you he didn't cry ;)
- marccromme
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
50 years ago when I had instrumental lessons, there was much focus on playing the sheetmusic correct. And often boring it was.
Today my teachers use more time on developping musical taste, and interpretation. Quality of sound production also.
What a difference!
40 years ago my trombone teacher played a piece really well, and demanded to copy it exactly as performed by him. When I dud not succeed, he just demanded ID try harder. No improvements where made. ..
Today, I get a nice explanation of what detail in technique or performance I missed, and a nice set of exercises, sometimes invented ad hoc, or a good explanation on how to train for fastest improvement.
Getting educated, taking lessons and practising is so much more fun today than it was decades ago. And my musical skills grow faster.
30 years ago my teacher told me to play with a strong and firm embouchure. And to use a stiff abdomen for maximal pressure. It resutlted in total lack of flexibility and a lot of body stress, I lost my high range entirely and sounded squeaky.
Today I have learned with the help of two magnificient teachers, trombone and tuba, to play relaxed, but with control. And to produce a big sound efficiently and with minimal fatigue and maximal efficiency.
Do I miss the old ways of teaching? Definitely not. I wasted decades of practice time on them. ..
Today my teachers use more time on developping musical taste, and interpretation. Quality of sound production also.
What a difference!
40 years ago my trombone teacher played a piece really well, and demanded to copy it exactly as performed by him. When I dud not succeed, he just demanded ID try harder. No improvements where made. ..
Today, I get a nice explanation of what detail in technique or performance I missed, and a nice set of exercises, sometimes invented ad hoc, or a good explanation on how to train for fastest improvement.
Getting educated, taking lessons and practising is so much more fun today than it was decades ago. And my musical skills grow faster.
30 years ago my teacher told me to play with a strong and firm embouchure. And to use a stiff abdomen for maximal pressure. It resutlted in total lack of flexibility and a lot of body stress, I lost my high range entirely and sounded squeaky.
Today I have learned with the help of two magnificient teachers, trombone and tuba, to play relaxed, but with control. And to produce a big sound efficiently and with minimal fatigue and maximal efficiency.
Do I miss the old ways of teaching? Definitely not. I wasted decades of practice time on them. ..
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]
Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.[/quote]
FWIW, I'm sure you did.
I'm glad the "hardcore" method of teaching worked for you in some regard. It did for many others, obviously. But how many students were left by the wayside because they needed a softer (or just different) touch? How many people as good as Watrous quit trombone because a teacher yelled at them one too many times?
Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.[/quote]
FWIW, I'm sure you did.
I'm glad the "hardcore" method of teaching worked for you in some regard. It did for many others, obviously. But how many students were left by the wayside because they needed a softer (or just different) touch? How many people as good as Watrous quit trombone because a teacher yelled at them one too many times?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="233908" time="1707773115" user_id="16498">
Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.[/quote]
FWIW, I'm sure you did.
I'm glad the "hardcore" method of teaching worked for you in some regard. It did for many others, obviously. But how many students were left by the wayside because they needed a softer (or just different) touch? How many people as good as Watrous quit trombone because a teacher yelled at them one too many times?
</QUOTE>
In answer to your last question about Watrous level people quitting, none would be my guess.
If you think my story about Roy Man was "hardcore," you should hear what I have to say about Ralph Sauer! LOL
Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.[/quote]
FWIW, I'm sure you did.
I'm glad the "hardcore" method of teaching worked for you in some regard. It did for many others, obviously. But how many students were left by the wayside because they needed a softer (or just different) touch? How many people as good as Watrous quit trombone because a teacher yelled at them one too many times?
</QUOTE>
In answer to your last question about Watrous level people quitting, none would be my guess.
If you think my story about Roy Man was "hardcore," you should hear what I have to say about Ralph Sauer! LOL
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I'm sure there's worse. I have heard stories from modern teachers as well, some with huge studios at large universities right now.
That doesn't make it ok, though.
That doesn't make it ok, though.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
In my teaching opinion, I don't think Watrous had a special or unique talent, he just realized a bit more of himself through circumstance. I think nearly all of us have it within ourselves to be unique and capable musicians who have something to say.
- BarryDaniels
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Nov 11, 2023
My wife gave up classical piano lessons after 12 years because her new teacher would rap her knuckles with a ruler when she hit a wrong note.
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
I had great band directors throughout my school years, talented and willing to share, and if we messed up, they would explain what we did wrong and we would work on whatever until we got it right without being pressured. Our band concerts were always top notch. My kids band directors still had the influence from my directors in their directors and had similar results, until we moved to a smaller school district. New director for my daughter, very flexible and encouraged her talents. He spent every day for about half the school year leading her through a special assignment, learning to be proficient in every instrument in the band. She was playing French horn, and receiving private lessons from a highly respected college prof so,he didn’t interfere with her horn. Fast forward to grandson’s school experience. Same school that daughter attended, but student population dropping and the school budget cuts that went with it. No longer a separate elementary and high school director, and the same person was now band and chorus director. Translation, not enough to time to properly devote development in any group. (Not holding it against the person, she’s doing the best she can with what she has to work with) Concerts a torture to endure, band consists of 6th thru 12th students, brass section now 2 trumpets and 1 trombone. Some small rural schools are not doing well for music students. Same school 50 years ago was sending the band to large cities to participate and parades and band competitions, and doing well.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="WilliamLang"]In my teaching opinion, I don't think Watrous had a special or unique talent, he just realized a bit more of himself through circumstance. I think nearly all of us have it within ourselves to be unique and capable musicians who have something to say.[/quote]
I don’t know if this is the case but I would prefer to take lessons from a teacher who believed this.
I don’t know if this is the case but I would prefer to take lessons from a teacher who believed this.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="BarryDaniels"]My wife gave up classical piano lessons after 12 years because her new teacher would rap her knuckles with a ruler when she hit a wrong note.[/quote]
I had a piano teacher who would escalate herself into a fit that culminated in her slamming the Steinway Baby Grand keyboard cover on my fingers. I am not sure what was upsetting her but like Grasshopper; I got quick at getting my hands out of harms way. And I also moved on from piano lessons at the first opportunity.
I had a piano teacher who would escalate herself into a fit that culminated in her slamming the Steinway Baby Grand keyboard cover on my fingers. I am not sure what was upsetting her but like Grasshopper; I got quick at getting my hands out of harms way. And I also moved on from piano lessons at the first opportunity.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I have seen one really famous teacher make students cry and go on forever about not touching the bell and how nobody knew how to extend out to 5th position. Huge waste of a masterclass.
I have seen a different, very famous performer (but not a famous teacher) give solid examples of in tune vs out of tune, and how to shape a music line. A masterclass about what their forte was, which was thinking about and interpreting a piece of music. Not getting hung up on nitpicky stuff that the performer giving the masterclass hadn't gone to the school to teach in the first place. A free iPhone app can tell you your 5th position is short, you don't need to hire Arthur Pryor to tell you that.
Kindness goes a long way, and the old school way described above is better suited for toughening up infantry recruits. It has it's place there for sure.
I have seen a different, very famous performer (but not a famous teacher) give solid examples of in tune vs out of tune, and how to shape a music line. A masterclass about what their forte was, which was thinking about and interpreting a piece of music. Not getting hung up on nitpicky stuff that the performer giving the masterclass hadn't gone to the school to teach in the first place. A free iPhone app can tell you your 5th position is short, you don't need to hire Arthur Pryor to tell you that.
Kindness goes a long way, and the old school way described above is better suited for toughening up infantry recruits. It has it's place there for sure.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hello all.
Surely I must have been very lucky , because none of my old-school teachers ( people that now are over 75/80 years old) ever even raised their voice .
Sometimes , one of them used to record us ( with a Sony Pro walkman..) , to then make us listen to ouselves .
During the lessons , he showed us the harsh truth , and this was what pushed me to want improve .
No screams , no tears ; just really hard work every day .
I think that one can be extremely inflexible , but the moment a teacher shouts , being rude and offensive , and a student reaches tears , the game is over...
Strange to say , some people still think that who act this way is a good teacher...
In my opinion , one must be able to make a student understand his/her situation , even if really bad , and obtain gratitude rather than resentment .
Anyway , also some overly lenient teachers do wrong , expecially nowadays .
However , there is nothing more ridicolous than a musician trying to acts as tough , having a rude attitude , shouting and screaming..!
Anyway , I think that we should not judge what happens 50/70 years ago , because the World was very different than today . They was much rude than us , because the World was much rude than today .
In 50 years , people will say that we do today is completely wrong ...
Regards
Giancarlo
Surely I must have been very lucky , because none of my old-school teachers ( people that now are over 75/80 years old) ever even raised their voice .
Sometimes , one of them used to record us ( with a Sony Pro walkman..) , to then make us listen to ouselves .
During the lessons , he showed us the harsh truth , and this was what pushed me to want improve .
No screams , no tears ; just really hard work every day .
I think that one can be extremely inflexible , but the moment a teacher shouts , being rude and offensive , and a student reaches tears , the game is over...
Strange to say , some people still think that who act this way is a good teacher...
In my opinion , one must be able to make a student understand his/her situation , even if really bad , and obtain gratitude rather than resentment .
Anyway , also some overly lenient teachers do wrong , expecially nowadays .
However , there is nothing more ridicolous than a musician trying to acts as tough , having a rude attitude , shouting and screaming..!
Anyway , I think that we should not judge what happens 50/70 years ago , because the World was very different than today . They was much rude than us , because the World was much rude than today .
In 50 years , people will say that we do today is completely wrong ...
Regards
Giancarlo
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I think it’s interesting that this wide open subject has somehow focused laser-like on my post about a tough old school teacher. Surely there are other differences between then and now.
And to clarify my post, Roy Main was an incredible teacher, and I have nothin but love and respect for him. He turned out legions of great professional trombonists, and I am lucky to have studied with him. (And as I alluded to above, my stories about Roy make him look like a Teddy Bear compared to Ralph Sauer and others of that era.)
And to clarify my post, Roy Main was an incredible teacher, and I have nothin but love and respect for him. He turned out legions of great professional trombonists, and I am lucky to have studied with him. (And as I alluded to above, my stories about Roy make him look like a Teddy Bear compared to Ralph Sauer and others of that era.)
- CaptEquinox
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Oct 02, 2018
Times do change, and then the teaching has to change too. Part of it might be pedagogy, but part is always interpersonal. The interpersonal part tends to separate the great teachers from the rest. Are students really “coddled” now, or is it just a lot harder to get away with being a complete a-hole now and trying to justify it later? Even Bobby Knight found out. There’s certainly room for being tough, but you’ve got to know what that room is.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hello again.
Apart the teachers' attitude , a difference I noticed comparing with the past , at least here in Italy , can be that now the School tries to train the students not only as performers , but also in others skills as arranging , composing , playing piano , playing Chamber Music , etc. Much more than in the past .
Being also a teacher myself , I think this is a very good thing .
Regards
Giancarlo
Apart the teachers' attitude , a difference I noticed comparing with the past , at least here in Italy , can be that now the School tries to train the students not only as performers , but also in others skills as arranging , composing , playing piano , playing Chamber Music , etc. Much more than in the past .
Being also a teacher myself , I think this is a very good thing .
Regards
Giancarlo
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I think it’s interesting that this wide open subject has somehow focused laser-like on my post about a tough old school teacher. Surely there are other differences between then and now.[/quote]
I think you hit a nerve. With a cattle prod.
[quote="tbdana"]And to clarify my post, Roy Main was an incredible teacher, and I have nothin but love and respect for him. He turned out legions of great professional trombonists, and I am lucky to have studied with him. (And as I alluded to above, my stories about Roy make him look like a Teddy Bear compared to Ralph Sauer and others of that era.)[/quote]
To expand on this a bit: I know several people who studied with Roy Main and ended up doing something other than playing trombone for a living. They all tell stories similar to yours (most centered around times when they showed up for a lesson unprepared) and, like you, they don't think there was anything wrong with that (and will defend him to anyone who does). My impression isn't that he was in any way abusive, just not particularly gentle with uncomfortable truths - and that he really didn't do positive feedback.
Me, I think anyone who aspires to playing trombone for a living should spend some time with a "tough" or "old school" teacher. Not someone who yells, screams, uses abusive language, or physically abuses their student, but someone who sets high standards, expects them to be consistently met and is never quite satisfied even when are. That said, I wouldn't recommend a teacher like that to anyone who I didn't think had the potential to play at the highest level AND was ready to fully commit to studying trombone.
But back to the original question:
One thing that has definitely changed from 50 years ago is that information about teachers is readily available online. You can see feedback from current and former students and listen to recordings (both of the teacher and of their students).
I think you hit a nerve. With a cattle prod.
[quote="tbdana"]And to clarify my post, Roy Main was an incredible teacher, and I have nothin but love and respect for him. He turned out legions of great professional trombonists, and I am lucky to have studied with him. (And as I alluded to above, my stories about Roy make him look like a Teddy Bear compared to Ralph Sauer and others of that era.)[/quote]
To expand on this a bit: I know several people who studied with Roy Main and ended up doing something other than playing trombone for a living. They all tell stories similar to yours (most centered around times when they showed up for a lesson unprepared) and, like you, they don't think there was anything wrong with that (and will defend him to anyone who does). My impression isn't that he was in any way abusive, just not particularly gentle with uncomfortable truths - and that he really didn't do positive feedback.
Me, I think anyone who aspires to playing trombone for a living should spend some time with a "tough" or "old school" teacher. Not someone who yells, screams, uses abusive language, or physically abuses their student, but someone who sets high standards, expects them to be consistently met and is never quite satisfied even when are. That said, I wouldn't recommend a teacher like that to anyone who I didn't think had the potential to play at the highest level AND was ready to fully commit to studying trombone.
But back to the original question:
One thing that has definitely changed from 50 years ago is that information about teachers is readily available online. You can see feedback from current and former students and listen to recordings (both of the teacher and of their students).
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I can't talk about changes over 50 years as I had my first lessons "only" around 30 years ago.
Anyway...
I never had a teacher shout at me or intentionally make me cry.
However as a kid I still put myself under so much pressure that I did cry and/or leave in a handful of lessons.
I did come across quite different teaching styles
- My very first teacher did not talk much about breathing, tongueing or embouchure and just gave some very simple basic guidance. On the other hand he cared extremely for intonation, timing, phrasing and overall musicality
- One of my later teachers usually sat at his desk, holding the trombone with the elbows on the table and we played a lot of basic exercises back and forth. What I mostly remember is how extremely loud he played. I personally didn't learn much from that, loud playing was not an issue for me at any point
- One of my teachers had a very very pre-defined way of what breathing and embouchure should look like. It never worked for me, although for multiple years I tried to make it work and could hardly play anymore. Nowadays I know that his way of thinking was wrong for me, but obviously worked for some others
- One other teacher was mostly focusing on bringing back confidence and relaxation in my playing over a period of roughly one year. Great role model in playing and as a human being, apart from being a bit unreliable
- One more used a lot of basic approaches (e.g. lots of breathing and buzzing exercises) to get me on track. It did help to a degree, but again took away some relaxation
- My last teacher at university (at that point I was very open about not following a music career anymore) focused on some simple principles in playing, stabilizing it and working on music. Loved the lessons and did a very good final exam
- The teacher I have taken about 15-20 online lessons with in the last 3 years has given me a lot of great practical advice on how to practice, what to focus on and brought me a lot further in my jazz playing. A very realistic approach, no fancy ideas, just down to earth analysis and practical ideas of how to work on it
I think one huge difference today is that as a student you can expose yourself to basically every idea how to play a brass instrument that exists in the world. On the one hand it is good to have this available, on the other hand it requires you to filter and prioritize yourself.
Anyway...
I never had a teacher shout at me or intentionally make me cry.
However as a kid I still put myself under so much pressure that I did cry and/or leave in a handful of lessons.
I did come across quite different teaching styles
- My very first teacher did not talk much about breathing, tongueing or embouchure and just gave some very simple basic guidance. On the other hand he cared extremely for intonation, timing, phrasing and overall musicality
- One of my later teachers usually sat at his desk, holding the trombone with the elbows on the table and we played a lot of basic exercises back and forth. What I mostly remember is how extremely loud he played. I personally didn't learn much from that, loud playing was not an issue for me at any point
- One of my teachers had a very very pre-defined way of what breathing and embouchure should look like. It never worked for me, although for multiple years I tried to make it work and could hardly play anymore. Nowadays I know that his way of thinking was wrong for me, but obviously worked for some others
- One other teacher was mostly focusing on bringing back confidence and relaxation in my playing over a period of roughly one year. Great role model in playing and as a human being, apart from being a bit unreliable
- One more used a lot of basic approaches (e.g. lots of breathing and buzzing exercises) to get me on track. It did help to a degree, but again took away some relaxation
- My last teacher at university (at that point I was very open about not following a music career anymore) focused on some simple principles in playing, stabilizing it and working on music. Loved the lessons and did a very good final exam
- The teacher I have taken about 15-20 online lessons with in the last 3 years has given me a lot of great practical advice on how to practice, what to focus on and brought me a lot further in my jazz playing. A very realistic approach, no fancy ideas, just down to earth analysis and practical ideas of how to work on it
I think one huge difference today is that as a student you can expose yourself to basically every idea how to play a brass instrument that exists in the world. On the one hand it is good to have this available, on the other hand it requires you to filter and prioritize yourself.
- SimmonsTrombone
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Jul 24, 2018
I, too, had a college instructor who had a very set idea about embouchure. He demanded I set the mouthpiece exactly centered on my lips and that I blow directly into the center of the mouthpiece. I got much worse and quit music school.
I don't see that kind of teaching anymore. It's more about musicality.
I don't see that kind of teaching anymore. It's more about musicality.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]I got my old Schlossberg out this morning. I bought it nearly a half century ago from Northwest Music, long since gone. I see someone checked off several exercises, but I’m not quite sure which of my teachers had me working from it.
It got me to thinking. What significant changes - if any, I guess - have there been in trombone pedagogy over the last 50 years?[/quote]
I honestly think that the big difference is that things that seemed fringe back in the day (even in the early 00's), like Reinhardt Pivot or Doug Elliott's approach to "sized" mouthpieces, is much more mainstream. It used to be like:
1. Change your embouchure to be like the picture in the Arban book.
2. Do not experiment with mouthpieces. Practice is the only way to improve.
3. The small practice room will uncover all the issues in your playing so use it as much as possible.
And any number of other dumb, unfounded advice. Teachers like Bousfield are kind of breaking through this. I had never heard of a teacher talking about how a room's acoustic can actually cause sound waves to bounce back into your bell and cause response issues, just like reversing the polarity on half your speakers. Or looking at MRI images to actually see the mechanics of great brass playing. A lot of teaching is now coming from a much more grounded place, rather than superstitions.
It got me to thinking. What significant changes - if any, I guess - have there been in trombone pedagogy over the last 50 years?[/quote]
I honestly think that the big difference is that things that seemed fringe back in the day (even in the early 00's), like Reinhardt Pivot or Doug Elliott's approach to "sized" mouthpieces, is much more mainstream. It used to be like:
1. Change your embouchure to be like the picture in the Arban book.
2. Do not experiment with mouthpieces. Practice is the only way to improve.
3. The small practice room will uncover all the issues in your playing so use it as much as possible.
And any number of other dumb, unfounded advice. Teachers like Bousfield are kind of breaking through this. I had never heard of a teacher talking about how a room's acoustic can actually cause sound waves to bounce back into your bell and cause response issues, just like reversing the polarity on half your speakers. Or looking at MRI images to actually see the mechanics of great brass playing. A lot of teaching is now coming from a much more grounded place, rather than superstitions.
- Mr412
- Posts: 207
- Joined: May 20, 2022
I tend to agree that teachers are more knowledgeable today. I believe it used to be the "naturals" who became career people and then teachers. All the other wannabees couldn't make it due to problems they could not get diagnosed and corrected. The "naturals" didn't know how to teach faulty mechanics b/c they never had them. Now, more teachers are those who have had a lot of difficulties to overcome (normal people, IOW's) and can see what someone else is doing wrong b/c - been there themselves, done that and corrected it. My instructor was a fabulous musician/instructor and told me not to worry. If I was doing something wrong, he would spot it and coach me on how to correct it b/c he probably had had the same problem to correct in his own playing at one time or another.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]What significant changes - if any, I guess - have there been in trombone pedagogy over the last 50 years?[/quote]
Access to all materials has improved, not just recordings. And with the improved access students seem to be have more varied interests and experiences. Students can pick up information, sheet music, etc. from a much wider range of opinions and ideas, not just those that come from their teachers and peers around them.
That can be a double edged sword, of course.
[quote="tbdana"]Nothing to do with material, but one big change has been the modern coddling of students' emotions. You don't see old school instruction anymore.[/quote]
One reason why:
[quote="JohnL"]Seems to me that there's more of an expectation that teachers have advanced degrees (including courses in pedagogy). Fifty years ago, just being a really good trombone player (with no degree at all) was sometimes enough.[/quote]
Positive reinforcement has been a trend in pedagogy since the 1940s. One reason why you're seeing less "old school" instruction (emphasizing negative feedback) is because more trombone teachers have studied pedagogy and aren't just good musicians.
[quote="tbdana"]Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.[/quote]
Yeah, I find this discussion a bit ironic. But there perhaps is a teaching moment here.
On the one hand, if "old school" is the more effective way to help a student fix problems, then we need to be willing to accept some snark when it comes our way. You really can't have your cake and eat it too.
On the other hand, if you're arguing for positive reinforcement, then perhaps we could do better at offering criticism in a more constructive manner. Lead by example, and all that.
It's not "coddling" to be aware of a student's emotions and to avoid making them feel bad about themselves. You don't need to sacrifice honesty in order to teach through mostly positive reinforcement.
Dave
Access to all materials has improved, not just recordings. And with the improved access students seem to be have more varied interests and experiences. Students can pick up information, sheet music, etc. from a much wider range of opinions and ideas, not just those that come from their teachers and peers around them.
That can be a double edged sword, of course.
[quote="tbdana"]Nothing to do with material, but one big change has been the modern coddling of students' emotions. You don't see old school instruction anymore.[/quote]
One reason why:
[quote="JohnL"]Seems to me that there's more of an expectation that teachers have advanced degrees (including courses in pedagogy). Fifty years ago, just being a really good trombone player (with no degree at all) was sometimes enough.[/quote]
Positive reinforcement has been a trend in pedagogy since the 1940s. One reason why you're seeing less "old school" instruction (emphasizing negative feedback) is because more trombone teachers have studied pedagogy and aren't just good musicians.
[quote="tbdana"]Not sure I earned that snark, but whatever.[/quote]
Yeah, I find this discussion a bit ironic. But there perhaps is a teaching moment here.
On the one hand, if "old school" is the more effective way to help a student fix problems, then we need to be willing to accept some snark when it comes our way. You really can't have your cake and eat it too.
On the other hand, if you're arguing for positive reinforcement, then perhaps we could do better at offering criticism in a more constructive manner. Lead by example, and all that.
It's not "coddling" to be aware of a student's emotions and to avoid making them feel bad about themselves. You don't need to sacrifice honesty in order to teach through mostly positive reinforcement.
Dave
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="CaptEquinox"]Even Bobby Knight found out. There’s certainly room for being tough, but you’ve got to know what that room is.[/quote]
I've always thought he misunderstood his results, and so did a lot of people. This is IMO of course.
He had some technical insights into the game that were way ahead of everybody else at the time. And he was famous for a brutal management style. He had an incredible winning record, and I think he believed it was his style of coaching rather than that technical knowledge.
Back on topic, sorry.
I've always thought he misunderstood his results, and so did a lot of people. This is IMO of course.
He had some technical insights into the game that were way ahead of everybody else at the time. And he was famous for a brutal management style. He had an incredible winning record, and I think he believed it was his style of coaching rather than that technical knowledge.
Back on topic, sorry.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]Positive reinforcement has been a trend in pedagogy since the 1940s. One reason why you're seeing less "old school" instruction (emphasizing negative feedback) is because more trombone teachers have studied pedagogy and aren't just good musicians.[/quote]
Undoubtedly true, but "music educators" (e.g., those with "music education" degrees) always studied pedagogy, and even their methods seem to have improved over the years -- which we would expect if pedagogy is actually both a practice- and theory-based discipline, rather than some sort of amorphous "talent."
From my perspective as an amateur player and totally outside both the professional performance and pedagogy spheres, other than as a student at times, one thing that I have noticed having a substantial effect on my own learning and understanding is the astonishing increase and ease of access to information and examples. This site is just one example of that, but now every instrument has its own site or set of sites where a vast amount of information is exchanged daily (hourly, by the minute!), discussions, arguments, criticisms, analyses, and descriptions of experience are available to a huge audience. Not to mention YouTube and the video/audio examples and demos freely available there -- including what amount to series of master classes from genuine masters (along with a bunch of stuff from the less masterful :roll: ).
This is a huge change even from the early 1990s when I decided to run out and buy a tuba and learn how to play it myself. That was just about at the point where the web was being created by a bunch of crazy physicists for posting "hypertext" documents online. The explosion of what might be called "pedagogically useful" material has been dramatic since then, and now top-notch instructors are both exchanging information and giving lessons online.
I think this has also fostered a kind of competition for music instructors and pedagogical approaches/methods, and much more of a market-oriented environment for the "consumer" (student) -- and exerted continuing pressure on those educators to improve both their approaches and their availability. The days of a frustrated, poorly trained, and at least partially ignorant violin-playing middle school "music teacher" yelling at me as a beginning saxophonist ( :lol: ) are long past. This is the way.
Undoubtedly true, but "music educators" (e.g., those with "music education" degrees) always studied pedagogy, and even their methods seem to have improved over the years -- which we would expect if pedagogy is actually both a practice- and theory-based discipline, rather than some sort of amorphous "talent."
From my perspective as an amateur player and totally outside both the professional performance and pedagogy spheres, other than as a student at times, one thing that I have noticed having a substantial effect on my own learning and understanding is the astonishing increase and ease of access to information and examples. This site is just one example of that, but now every instrument has its own site or set of sites where a vast amount of information is exchanged daily (hourly, by the minute!), discussions, arguments, criticisms, analyses, and descriptions of experience are available to a huge audience. Not to mention YouTube and the video/audio examples and demos freely available there -- including what amount to series of master classes from genuine masters (along with a bunch of stuff from the less masterful :roll: ).
This is a huge change even from the early 1990s when I decided to run out and buy a tuba and learn how to play it myself. That was just about at the point where the web was being created by a bunch of crazy physicists for posting "hypertext" documents online. The explosion of what might be called "pedagogically useful" material has been dramatic since then, and now top-notch instructors are both exchanging information and giving lessons online.
I think this has also fostered a kind of competition for music instructors and pedagogical approaches/methods, and much more of a market-oriented environment for the "consumer" (student) -- and exerted continuing pressure on those educators to improve both their approaches and their availability. The days of a frustrated, poorly trained, and at least partially ignorant violin-playing middle school "music teacher" yelling at me as a beginning saxophonist ( :lol: ) are long past. This is the way.
- CaptEquinox
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Oct 02, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="CaptEquinox" post_id="233952" time="1707797337" user_id="3793">
Even Bobby Knight found out. There’s certainly room for being tough, but you’ve got to know what that room is.[/quote]
I've always thought he misunderstood his results, and so did a lot of people. This is IMO of course.
</QUOTE>
Exactly. What produces the desired result? No doubt, the "tough teacher" is a kind of mystique, or possibly a part to play. Any good teacher may well have that in their bag of tricks somewhere, along with Yoda, "There is no try," Mr. Miyagi, "Wax on wax off," etc . . .
But ultimately, you probably should know what you're doing, and in more ways than one. There is no need to be J.K. Simmons in[url=https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2582802/] Whiplash. Not necessarily. Times change, and you risk becoming a parody of yourself.
Even Bobby Knight found out. There’s certainly room for being tough, but you’ve got to know what that room is.[/quote]
I've always thought he misunderstood his results, and so did a lot of people. This is IMO of course.
</QUOTE>
Exactly. What produces the desired result? No doubt, the "tough teacher" is a kind of mystique, or possibly a part to play. Any good teacher may well have that in their bag of tricks somewhere, along with Yoda, "There is no try," Mr. Miyagi, "Wax on wax off," etc . . .
But ultimately, you probably should know what you're doing, and in more ways than one. There is no need to be J.K. Simmons in
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Lol, the post is deleted but people are acting like Dana is the OP. She made a valid point. People don't teach like that as much these days. I don't really see any attacks on her personally here. She took something the wrong way, but it wasn't actually directed at her, but her teacher.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]Undoubtedly true, but "music educators" (e.g., those with "music education" degrees) always studied pedagogy, and even their methods seem to have improved over the years -- which we would expect if pedagogy is actually both a practice- and theory-based discipline, rather than some sort of amorphous "talent."[/quote]
Yes, indeed.
My point in mentioning the trend towards positive reinforcement over negative dating back to the 1930s and 1940s was intended to point out that the "old school" style that many of us are familiar with was outdated even 50 years ago. These days we have even more research backing up positive reinforcement being more effective and new and improved approaches towards doing so.
Often times when we have discussed pedagogy here we make the assumption that our own experience are typical. It's worth considering a little history so we can put our thoughts into perspective.
[quote="ghmerrill"]I think this has also fostered a kind of competition for music instructors and pedagogical approaches/methods, and much more of a market-oriented environment for the "consumer" (student) -- and exerted continuing pressure on those educators to improve both their approaches and their availability.[/quote]
Again true, but also a double edged sword. For example, there are many popular online resources by charismatic teachers that I might consider to be leading folks astray. Some of them do treat the students as a "consumer" and strive to give them more of what they want to learn, as opposed to what they need to learn.
That's also a trend for in-person teaching in higher education. There has been a lot of emphasis placed on student evaluations to assess teaching effectiveness. Some teachers have learned (sometimes unconsciously) that they can game the system by teaching their class in a way that makes the students feel good, but don't lead to better learning. There has been research that shows that students who took a course from a professor whose student evaluations were worse typically do better in the next level of the course. The students who took courses taught by professors who rated high in student evaluations were more often less prepared to take the next course level.
So there definitely is some "coddling" that goes on and it's not really best for the student long term.
[quote="timothy42b"]He had some technical insights into the game that were way ahead of everybody else at the time. And he was famous for a brutal management style. He had an incredible winning record, and I think he believed it was his style of coaching rather than that technical knowledge.[/quote]
I don't know basketball, but I agree that teachers can often come to pedagogical decisions based on a misunderstanding of what is effective teaching. For example, the advice we sometimes hear from teachers at a conservatory or top-tier music university is often a lot different from what a teacher working with less experienced or less talented students might recommend. If you have a recruiting machine that brings in great basketball players or highly talented music students, then your program is going to be successful, sometimes in spite of the coaching and instruction.
[quote="hyperbolica"]Anyway, not all teachers from that era were harsh.[/quote]
Yes, we shouldn't paint the pedagogy from the past with such a broad stroke.
[quote="hyperbolica"]I was at a conference recently where I got to see exactly what the modern generation produces.[/quote]
Similarly, we shouldn't do the same thing with "what the modern generation produces" either.
I don't know what conference you're referring to, or whose presentation, but performance anxiety is a serious issue for many students and many of those students are adults. I had a student who would come into juries literally shaking with fear. A friend of mine from undergrad became a piano teacher but stopped performing regularly because she felt so anxious she hated the experience. This is more common than I think you're giving it credit. And I would consider it worth an hour of my time to learn more about it from the perspective of someone more experienced in it than I am.
[quote="harrisonreed"]She took something the wrong way, but it wasn't actually directed at her, but her teacher.[/quote]
Well, as I pointed out earlier, if "old school" teaching is the way to go, then the method the criticism is given is right in line.
[quote="tbdana"]And on another level, I think you're proving my point, that such a "tougher" old school style is unacceptable anymore. Personally, though, I respect it.[/quote]
This argument diminishes the importance of emotional well being to a student's education. That sort of teaching doesn't deserve respect, in my opinion. Students shouldn't leave a lesson in tears. It's unethical and simply not good pedagogy.
Dave
Yes, indeed.
My point in mentioning the trend towards positive reinforcement over negative dating back to the 1930s and 1940s was intended to point out that the "old school" style that many of us are familiar with was outdated even 50 years ago. These days we have even more research backing up positive reinforcement being more effective and new and improved approaches towards doing so.
Often times when we have discussed pedagogy here we make the assumption that our own experience are typical. It's worth considering a little history so we can put our thoughts into perspective.
[quote="ghmerrill"]I think this has also fostered a kind of competition for music instructors and pedagogical approaches/methods, and much more of a market-oriented environment for the "consumer" (student) -- and exerted continuing pressure on those educators to improve both their approaches and their availability.[/quote]
Again true, but also a double edged sword. For example, there are many popular online resources by charismatic teachers that I might consider to be leading folks astray. Some of them do treat the students as a "consumer" and strive to give them more of what they want to learn, as opposed to what they need to learn.
That's also a trend for in-person teaching in higher education. There has been a lot of emphasis placed on student evaluations to assess teaching effectiveness. Some teachers have learned (sometimes unconsciously) that they can game the system by teaching their class in a way that makes the students feel good, but don't lead to better learning. There has been research that shows that students who took a course from a professor whose student evaluations were worse typically do better in the next level of the course. The students who took courses taught by professors who rated high in student evaluations were more often less prepared to take the next course level.
So there definitely is some "coddling" that goes on and it's not really best for the student long term.
[quote="timothy42b"]He had some technical insights into the game that were way ahead of everybody else at the time. And he was famous for a brutal management style. He had an incredible winning record, and I think he believed it was his style of coaching rather than that technical knowledge.[/quote]
I don't know basketball, but I agree that teachers can often come to pedagogical decisions based on a misunderstanding of what is effective teaching. For example, the advice we sometimes hear from teachers at a conservatory or top-tier music university is often a lot different from what a teacher working with less experienced or less talented students might recommend. If you have a recruiting machine that brings in great basketball players or highly talented music students, then your program is going to be successful, sometimes in spite of the coaching and instruction.
[quote="hyperbolica"]Anyway, not all teachers from that era were harsh.[/quote]
Yes, we shouldn't paint the pedagogy from the past with such a broad stroke.
[quote="hyperbolica"]I was at a conference recently where I got to see exactly what the modern generation produces.[/quote]
Similarly, we shouldn't do the same thing with "what the modern generation produces" either.
I don't know what conference you're referring to, or whose presentation, but performance anxiety is a serious issue for many students and many of those students are adults. I had a student who would come into juries literally shaking with fear. A friend of mine from undergrad became a piano teacher but stopped performing regularly because she felt so anxious she hated the experience. This is more common than I think you're giving it credit. And I would consider it worth an hour of my time to learn more about it from the perspective of someone more experienced in it than I am.
[quote="harrisonreed"]She took something the wrong way, but it wasn't actually directed at her, but her teacher.[/quote]
Well, as I pointed out earlier, if "old school" teaching is the way to go, then the method the criticism is given is right in line.
[quote="tbdana"]And on another level, I think you're proving my point, that such a "tougher" old school style is unacceptable anymore. Personally, though, I respect it.[/quote]
This argument diminishes the importance of emotional well being to a student's education. That sort of teaching doesn't deserve respect, in my opinion. Students shouldn't leave a lesson in tears. It's unethical and simply not good pedagogy.
Dave
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
Interesting subject.
For people that are serious about music and their instrument, I believe (and I'd rather) have someone 'tell it like it is' to a serious student (of any instrument).
Some golden advice/thoughts picked up over the years through lessons:
- from Dave Robbins (ex-lead trombone w/Harry James during the Palladium heydays, LA studio player in the '50's with Tommy Pederson et al, Vancouver Symphony, Vanc. Opera, etc. etc. ):
"Get serious here, because right now there are a lot of trombone players practicing like crazy in order to go after the same gigs you want to go after"
"Do what I say, not what I've done.....stay healthy and do something you like to do to stay in shape!"
- from Ian McDougall (former lead tbone with Boss Brass, Toronto studio icon, etc.)
"Put some 'F....'in' air in the horn!"
"DO this routine....and then practice Kopprasch, Schlossberg, and stay FOCUSED on what you're doing"
"Put some 'F...'in air in the horn! Do I have to keep on you about that?"
- from Jerry Johnson (former Maynard icon and Toronto icon):
"Just play a nice middle 'F' for me....not good enough....not good enough....not good enough....not good enough.....not good....better..... (no response).....better....not good enough....again....again....OK, getting there"
- from Dave Taylor (the man; going to him for some 'get back in shape' lessons after barely playing for a couple of years while focusing on composing projects):
"Are you sure you really want to play the trombone? There are easier ways to make a living these days!"
"If you're really dedicated, believe that Music is what you are supposed to do in life, then DO IT!"
"Sorry we just spent the past hour on only one note and having me berate you and getting you to understand what the tongue does....but you said you're serious. You want some more abuse? Let's do it again. I can see that you can play, so stick to it. And practice my sh...t!"
(after coming to hear me play at a special art/solo/ trombone gig)..."I really dug that! Nice man. Yeah! ....but your high D sounded like it was too 'bottled up'. I think you should check out a different mouthpiece."
Tough-love is always good at certain points in a students life. (we're all students)
For people that are serious about music and their instrument, I believe (and I'd rather) have someone 'tell it like it is' to a serious student (of any instrument).
Some golden advice/thoughts picked up over the years through lessons:
- from Dave Robbins (ex-lead trombone w/Harry James during the Palladium heydays, LA studio player in the '50's with Tommy Pederson et al, Vancouver Symphony, Vanc. Opera, etc. etc. ):
"Get serious here, because right now there are a lot of trombone players practicing like crazy in order to go after the same gigs you want to go after"
"Do what I say, not what I've done.....stay healthy and do something you like to do to stay in shape!"
- from Ian McDougall (former lead tbone with Boss Brass, Toronto studio icon, etc.)
"Put some 'F....'in' air in the horn!"
"DO this routine....and then practice Kopprasch, Schlossberg, and stay FOCUSED on what you're doing"
"Put some 'F...'in air in the horn! Do I have to keep on you about that?"
- from Jerry Johnson (former Maynard icon and Toronto icon):
"Just play a nice middle 'F' for me....not good enough....not good enough....not good enough....not good enough.....not good....better..... (no response).....better....not good enough....again....again....OK, getting there"
- from Dave Taylor (the man; going to him for some 'get back in shape' lessons after barely playing for a couple of years while focusing on composing projects):
"Are you sure you really want to play the trombone? There are easier ways to make a living these days!"
"If you're really dedicated, believe that Music is what you are supposed to do in life, then DO IT!"
"Sorry we just spent the past hour on only one note and having me berate you and getting you to understand what the tongue does....but you said you're serious. You want some more abuse? Let's do it again. I can see that you can play, so stick to it. And practice my sh...t!"
(after coming to hear me play at a special art/solo/ trombone gig)..."I really dug that! Nice man. Yeah! ....but your high D sounded like it was too 'bottled up'. I think you should check out a different mouthpiece."
Tough-love is always good at certain points in a students life. (we're all students)
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Cmillar"]Interesting subject.
For people that are serious about music and their instrument, I believe (and I'd rather) have someone 'tell it like it is' to a serious student (of any instrument).
…
Tough-love is always good at certain points in a students life. (we're all students)[/quote]
Honesty is good pedagogy. The “old school” style of tearing a student down, on the other hand, isn’t.
For people that are serious about music and their instrument, I believe (and I'd rather) have someone 'tell it like it is' to a serious student (of any instrument).
…
Tough-love is always good at certain points in a students life. (we're all students)[/quote]
Honesty is good pedagogy. The “old school” style of tearing a student down, on the other hand, isn’t.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
One of the most effective and inspiring brass teachers of the last 50 years was Sam Pilafian, the great tuba player and founding member of the Empire Brass. I did not know Sam as well as many of my friends, but I had the privilege of spending some time with him and attending multiple classes he gave.
Sam summed up his own teaching philosophy as (I'm paraphrasing) "finding each student's strengths and building from there." That was such a concise statement of the way my best teachers operated, and the instinct that I have tended to follow, that I've adopted it as the philosophy I try to follow myself.
My own teacher in graduate school, Norman Bolter, said to me in my very first lesson: "Start with what you CAN do."
None of this means that you don't identify areas of weakness and address them. But it's a fundamentally different way of thinking than a stance of correcting faults, sometimes with brutal honesty that leaves students in tears or doubting their abilities. Build from strengths. Relate progress on weakness to abilities the student has already achieved.
My toughest teacher was probably Per Brevig, who never let me slide with imprecise rhythm or pitch. And the only time I ever cried coming out of a lesson was when he said to me "Gabe, you are much too talented to sound this way." But take a moment and analyze that sentence...implicit in the criticism of the work I had (not) been doing was the possibility of my achievement. I'm guessing that tbdana took away the same sentiment from Roy Main.
Sam summed up his own teaching philosophy as (I'm paraphrasing) "finding each student's strengths and building from there." That was such a concise statement of the way my best teachers operated, and the instinct that I have tended to follow, that I've adopted it as the philosophy I try to follow myself.
My own teacher in graduate school, Norman Bolter, said to me in my very first lesson: "Start with what you CAN do."
None of this means that you don't identify areas of weakness and address them. But it's a fundamentally different way of thinking than a stance of correcting faults, sometimes with brutal honesty that leaves students in tears or doubting their abilities. Build from strengths. Relate progress on weakness to abilities the student has already achieved.
My toughest teacher was probably Per Brevig, who never let me slide with imprecise rhythm or pitch. And the only time I ever cried coming out of a lesson was when he said to me "Gabe, you are much too talented to sound this way." But take a moment and analyze that sentence...implicit in the criticism of the work I had (not) been doing was the possibility of my achievement. I'm guessing that tbdana took away the same sentiment from Roy Main.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE author="Cmillar" post_id="234006" time="1707845201" user_id="3134">
Interesting subject.
For people that are serious about music and their instrument, I believe (and I'd rather) have someone 'tell it like it is' to a serious student (of any instrument).
…
Tough-love is always good at certain points in a students life. (we're all students)[/quote]
Honesty is good pedagogy. The “old school” style of tearing a student down, on the other hand, isn’t.
</QUOTE>
Yes!.....honesty was the word I was looking for!
Interesting subject.
For people that are serious about music and their instrument, I believe (and I'd rather) have someone 'tell it like it is' to a serious student (of any instrument).
…
Tough-love is always good at certain points in a students life. (we're all students)[/quote]
Honesty is good pedagogy. The “old school” style of tearing a student down, on the other hand, isn’t.
</QUOTE>
Yes!.....honesty was the word I was looking for!
- Redthunder
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
Since I was the one who originally responded to tbdana's post with unnecessary snark, maybe I should expand a bit.
First, this observation from JohnL:
[quote="JohnL"]That said, I wouldn't recommend a teacher like that to anyone who I didn't think had the potential to play at the highest level AND was ready to fully commit to studying trombone.[/quote]
I agree that the student most likely to succeed with an extremely tough teacher is this type of student, but then again, aren't these students that possesses these qualities are the ones that are most likely succeed under any teacher if they are that motivated to begin with? So what role is the tough teacher really serving here besides weeding people out. If that's the goal, that isn't really teaching, it's simply facilitating opportunities for those that already can do it. A great teacher is willing and capable of teaching anybody at any level.
Secondly:
[quote="harrisonreed"]Lol, the post is deleted but people are acting like Dana is the OP. She made a valid point. People don't teach like that as much these days.[/quote]
While her point is true that this type of teaching is less acceptable (but still persists in lots of places despite the claim that it isn't happening as much) also included the implication that she feels this change is a bad thing and that kids are worse off for it. So no, I don't think that is valid.
There's also another layer of subtext behind all of these anecdotes about coming in for a lesson with a teacher and getting reamed for being unprepared and that is that a student that isn't prepared for a lesson is only unprepared because they are lazy or chose not to practice.
This is preposterous. There are literally dozens of reasons why a student might be unprepared with a requested assignment, and a good responsible teacher takes the time to first figure out why a student did not complete it, and then responds accordingly. Here are some common reasons that I see all the time with students at all levels:
-The student doesn't understand how to practice (this sounds silly but it is incredibly common for students that have been told to "practice" their whole life, but never have any idea of what this looks like, so many of them just noodle around for a while because they have no idea how to structure good practicing.)
-The student didn't understand what the assignment was
-The student was unable to complete the assignment because it was too difficult for their current playing abilities
-The student is working, or splitting their study in multiple areas (think mused majors) and ran out of time
-The student is experiencing something in their life that is preventing them from practicing regularly (family issues, drug abuse, mental health issues, loss of friends or loved ones).
-The student isn't that interested in what you are assigning (jazz majors forced into classical lessons with teachers who only prepare students for orchestra life as an example...)
In all of these cases, it is the teachers responsibility to identify the cause and adjust their teaching and expectations accordingly. Doing anything else is a waste of time. Even for the students that aren't that serious and just don't practice regularly, a great teacher will make good use of that time and the student will leave the lesson better than they came in, even if the growth is incredibly small. None of this has any relationship with coddling. A student with professional aspirations that isn't investing the proper time or effort should be informed of this, but there's no need to be a prick about it. We all make our choices.
Since the evidence of tough teachers being effective is purely anecdotal, I have plenty of my own anecdotes from my first hand experience dealing with hardass music professors in college. I was a very hard worker and highly motivated, with meager abilities. A common theme was as a beginner improvisor, far behind the abilities and experiences of my classmates, being given extensive and difficult transcription assignments that I was simply incapable of completing at the time. These teachers just wrote me off instead of figuring out how to adjust their expectations to meet me at a level where I was capable of learning and growing. These teachers wasted my time and money.
I also didn't have a SINGLE brass teacher that was capable of helping me with my chop issues until I met Doug Elliott and Dave Wilken. Neither the relaxed teachers or the hardasses had the skillset to help me. The flexible teachers were patient and tried to help, and I learned a great deal along the way about music from these people. The only takeway I had from the hardasses were that they were assholes and I would never behave like them. If I internalized their opinions of me based on my abilities at the time, I would not be playing trombone at all today, let alone at a professional level.
Doug Elliott is an example of a world class teacher who has the chops AND the knowledge to make anybody a better musician and brass player. He doesn't sugarcoat or blow smoke, and if you ask for feedback he will give it to you exactly how he feels about your playing. And when you get a compliment from him, it is absolutely amazing to feel it, not because you want praise, and not because he withholds praise on purpose, but it's because when you listen to Doug play trombone you know he is a world class musician and he knows his shit, so it comes from a genuine place. THAT is what a great teacher looks like. I doubt anybody has left a lesson with Doug feeling worse than they entered.
First, this observation from JohnL:
[quote="JohnL"]That said, I wouldn't recommend a teacher like that to anyone who I didn't think had the potential to play at the highest level AND was ready to fully commit to studying trombone.[/quote]
I agree that the student most likely to succeed with an extremely tough teacher is this type of student, but then again, aren't these students that possesses these qualities are the ones that are most likely succeed under any teacher if they are that motivated to begin with? So what role is the tough teacher really serving here besides weeding people out. If that's the goal, that isn't really teaching, it's simply facilitating opportunities for those that already can do it. A great teacher is willing and capable of teaching anybody at any level.
Secondly:
[quote="harrisonreed"]Lol, the post is deleted but people are acting like Dana is the OP. She made a valid point. People don't teach like that as much these days.[/quote]
While her point is true that this type of teaching is less acceptable (but still persists in lots of places despite the claim that it isn't happening as much) also included the implication that she feels this change is a bad thing and that kids are worse off for it. So no, I don't think that is valid.
There's also another layer of subtext behind all of these anecdotes about coming in for a lesson with a teacher and getting reamed for being unprepared and that is that a student that isn't prepared for a lesson is only unprepared because they are lazy or chose not to practice.
This is preposterous. There are literally dozens of reasons why a student might be unprepared with a requested assignment, and a good responsible teacher takes the time to first figure out why a student did not complete it, and then responds accordingly. Here are some common reasons that I see all the time with students at all levels:
-The student doesn't understand how to practice (this sounds silly but it is incredibly common for students that have been told to "practice" their whole life, but never have any idea of what this looks like, so many of them just noodle around for a while because they have no idea how to structure good practicing.)
-The student didn't understand what the assignment was
-The student was unable to complete the assignment because it was too difficult for their current playing abilities
-The student is working, or splitting their study in multiple areas (think mused majors) and ran out of time
-The student is experiencing something in their life that is preventing them from practicing regularly (family issues, drug abuse, mental health issues, loss of friends or loved ones).
-The student isn't that interested in what you are assigning (jazz majors forced into classical lessons with teachers who only prepare students for orchestra life as an example...)
In all of these cases, it is the teachers responsibility to identify the cause and adjust their teaching and expectations accordingly. Doing anything else is a waste of time. Even for the students that aren't that serious and just don't practice regularly, a great teacher will make good use of that time and the student will leave the lesson better than they came in, even if the growth is incredibly small. None of this has any relationship with coddling. A student with professional aspirations that isn't investing the proper time or effort should be informed of this, but there's no need to be a prick about it. We all make our choices.
Since the evidence of tough teachers being effective is purely anecdotal, I have plenty of my own anecdotes from my first hand experience dealing with hardass music professors in college. I was a very hard worker and highly motivated, with meager abilities. A common theme was as a beginner improvisor, far behind the abilities and experiences of my classmates, being given extensive and difficult transcription assignments that I was simply incapable of completing at the time. These teachers just wrote me off instead of figuring out how to adjust their expectations to meet me at a level where I was capable of learning and growing. These teachers wasted my time and money.
I also didn't have a SINGLE brass teacher that was capable of helping me with my chop issues until I met Doug Elliott and Dave Wilken. Neither the relaxed teachers or the hardasses had the skillset to help me. The flexible teachers were patient and tried to help, and I learned a great deal along the way about music from these people. The only takeway I had from the hardasses were that they were assholes and I would never behave like them. If I internalized their opinions of me based on my abilities at the time, I would not be playing trombone at all today, let alone at a professional level.
Doug Elliott is an example of a world class teacher who has the chops AND the knowledge to make anybody a better musician and brass player. He doesn't sugarcoat or blow smoke, and if you ask for feedback he will give it to you exactly how he feels about your playing. And when you get a compliment from him, it is absolutely amazing to feel it, not because you want praise, and not because he withholds praise on purpose, but it's because when you listen to Doug play trombone you know he is a world class musician and he knows his shit, so it comes from a genuine place. THAT is what a great teacher looks like. I doubt anybody has left a lesson with Doug feeling worse than they entered.
- CaptEquinox
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Oct 02, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]My own teacher in graduate school, Norman Bolter, said to me in my very first lesson: "Start with what you CAN do."[/quote]
Right; does anyone berate the baby for not walking well enough? Not that you're the baby in this scenario.
[quote="GabrielRice"]My toughest teacher was probably Per Brevig, who never let me slide with imprecise rhythm or pitch.[/quote]
Good one.
Right; does anyone berate the baby for not walking well enough? Not that you're the baby in this scenario.
[quote="GabrielRice"]My toughest teacher was probably Per Brevig, who never let me slide with imprecise rhythm or pitch.[/quote]
Good one.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Redthunder"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="233959" time="1707812674" user_id="119">
That said, I wouldn't recommend a teacher like that to anyone who I didn't think had the potential to play at the highest level AND was ready to fully commit to studying trombone.[/quote]
I agree that the student most likely to succeed with an extremely tough teacher is this type of student, but then again, aren't these students that possesses these qualities are the ones that are most likely succeed under any teacher if they are that motivated to begin with? So what role is the tough teacher really serving here besides weeding people out. If that's the goal, that isn't really teaching, it's simply facilitating opportunities for those that already can do it. A great teacher is willing and capable of teaching anybody at any level.</QUOTE>
I'm afraid I didn't adequately describe the conditions under which I believe a tough (i.e., extremely demanding, but not abusive - IMHO, <I>abusive teachers have no place</I>) teacher can be of benefit. Putting them in charge of a studio at a university or even a conservatory? Absolutely not. But as someone to help put a final polish on a recent grad who is getting ready to start auditions? I can see some value there. I can also see the value in learning to function in an environment where positive feedback is scarce - after all, that's kinda the audition process in a nutshell.
That said, I wouldn't recommend a teacher like that to anyone who I didn't think had the potential to play at the highest level AND was ready to fully commit to studying trombone.[/quote]
I agree that the student most likely to succeed with an extremely tough teacher is this type of student, but then again, aren't these students that possesses these qualities are the ones that are most likely succeed under any teacher if they are that motivated to begin with? So what role is the tough teacher really serving here besides weeding people out. If that's the goal, that isn't really teaching, it's simply facilitating opportunities for those that already can do it. A great teacher is willing and capable of teaching anybody at any level.</QUOTE>
I'm afraid I didn't adequately describe the conditions under which I believe a tough (i.e., extremely demanding, but not abusive - IMHO, <I>abusive teachers have no place</I>) teacher can be of benefit. Putting them in charge of a studio at a university or even a conservatory? Absolutely not. But as someone to help put a final polish on a recent grad who is getting ready to start auditions? I can see some value there. I can also see the value in learning to function in an environment where positive feedback is scarce - after all, that's kinda the audition process in a nutshell.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
[quote="Redthunder"]
Doug Elliott is an example of a world class teacher who has the chops AND the knowledge to make anybody a better musician and brass player. He doesn't sugarcoat or blow smoke, and if you ask for feedback he will give it to you exactly how he feels about your playing. And when you get a compliment from him, it is absolutely amazing to feel it, not because you want praise, and not because he withholds praise on purpose, but it's because when you listen to Doug play trombone you know he is a world class musician and he knows his shit, so it comes from a genuine place. THAT is what a great teacher looks like. I doubt anybody has left a lesson with Doug feeling worse than they entered.[/quote]
I second this!
Apart from the 'many schools' of 'how to play a brass instrument', there is Doug.... who KNOWS what works from his Reinhardt work and other study. And, he's sifted through all the 'other schools' to know what works and what doesn't work for his students and their makeup, etc.
I wouldn't trade past lessons and experiences for anything, but....
.... if there was ONE teacher I wish I'd known and been able to study with many years ago, it would be Doug Elliott for sure.
My lesson notes and exercises from Doug are on top of the pile.
Doug Elliott is an example of a world class teacher who has the chops AND the knowledge to make anybody a better musician and brass player. He doesn't sugarcoat or blow smoke, and if you ask for feedback he will give it to you exactly how he feels about your playing. And when you get a compliment from him, it is absolutely amazing to feel it, not because you want praise, and not because he withholds praise on purpose, but it's because when you listen to Doug play trombone you know he is a world class musician and he knows his shit, so it comes from a genuine place. THAT is what a great teacher looks like. I doubt anybody has left a lesson with Doug feeling worse than they entered.[/quote]
I second this!
Apart from the 'many schools' of 'how to play a brass instrument', there is Doug.... who KNOWS what works from his Reinhardt work and other study. And, he's sifted through all the 'other schools' to know what works and what doesn't work for his students and their makeup, etc.
I wouldn't trade past lessons and experiences for anything, but....
.... if there was ONE teacher I wish I'd known and been able to study with many years ago, it would be Doug Elliott for sure.
My lesson notes and exercises from Doug are on top of the pile.
- SteveM
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Dec 21, 2021
Just being able to have a lesson with a teacher remotely using a video connection certainly must be one of the biggest changes in teaching over the last 50 years.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]One of the most effective and inspiring brass teachers of the last 50 years was Sam Pilafian, the great tuba player and founding member of the Empire Brass. I did not know Sam as well as many of my friends, but I had the privilege of spending some time with him and attending multiple classes he gave.
Sam summed up his own teaching philosophy as (I'm paraphrasing) "finding each student's strengths and building from there." That was such a concise statement of the way my best teachers operated, and the instinct that I have tended to follow, that I've adopted it as the philosophy I try to follow myself.
My own teacher in graduate school, Norman Bolter, said to me in my very first lesson: "Start with what you CAN do."
None of this means that you don't identify areas of weakness and address them. But it's a fundamentally different way of thinking than a stance of correcting faults, sometimes with brutal honesty that leaves students in tears or doubting their abilities. Build from strengths. Relate progress on weakness to abilities the student has already achieved.
My toughest teacher was probably Per Brevig, who never let me slide with imprecise rhythm or pitch. And the only time I ever cried coming out of a lesson was when he said to me "Gabe, you are much too talented to sound this way." But take a moment and analyze that sentence...implicit in the criticism of the work I had (not) been doing was the possibility of my achievement. I'm guessing that tbdana took away the same sentiment from Roy Main.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f44d-1f3fb" tseq="1f44d-1f3fb">👍🏻</EMOJI>
“Start where you are,” or “Start with what you CAN do,” is fundamental to modern psychology and counseling. Repeated studies have shown that building on strengths rather than criticizing weaknesses helps people improve more quickly, and the lessons learned are rehearsed (practiced) more often, both in the action of practicing and in the brain’s neural pathways. The desire to accomplish something, along with the desire to please authority figures, is a stronger motivation in the long run than the desire to avoid punishment or harsh criticism.
Sam summed up his own teaching philosophy as (I'm paraphrasing) "finding each student's strengths and building from there." That was such a concise statement of the way my best teachers operated, and the instinct that I have tended to follow, that I've adopted it as the philosophy I try to follow myself.
My own teacher in graduate school, Norman Bolter, said to me in my very first lesson: "Start with what you CAN do."
None of this means that you don't identify areas of weakness and address them. But it's a fundamentally different way of thinking than a stance of correcting faults, sometimes with brutal honesty that leaves students in tears or doubting their abilities. Build from strengths. Relate progress on weakness to abilities the student has already achieved.
My toughest teacher was probably Per Brevig, who never let me slide with imprecise rhythm or pitch. And the only time I ever cried coming out of a lesson was when he said to me "Gabe, you are much too talented to sound this way." But take a moment and analyze that sentence...implicit in the criticism of the work I had (not) been doing was the possibility of my achievement. I'm guessing that tbdana took away the same sentiment from Roy Main.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f44d-1f3fb" tseq="1f44d-1f3fb">👍🏻</EMOJI>
“Start where you are,” or “Start with what you CAN do,” is fundamental to modern psychology and counseling. Repeated studies have shown that building on strengths rather than criticizing weaknesses helps people improve more quickly, and the lessons learned are rehearsed (practiced) more often, both in the action of practicing and in the brain’s neural pathways. The desire to accomplish something, along with the desire to please authority figures, is a stronger motivation in the long run than the desire to avoid punishment or harsh criticism.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]“Start where you are,” or “Start with what you CAN do,” is fundamental to modern psychology and counseling.[/quote]
"... just as in conduct our task is to start from what is good for each and make what is without qualification good, good for each, so it is our task to start from what is more knowable to oneself and make what is knowable by nature knowable to oneself."
Aristotle "Metaphysics" (circa 350 BC)
"... just as in conduct our task is to start from what is good for each and make what is without qualification good, good for each, so it is our task to start from what is more knowable to oneself and make what is knowable by nature knowable to oneself."
Aristotle "Metaphysics" (circa 350 BC)
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]
From my perspective as an amateur player and totally outside both the professional performance and pedagogy spheres, other than as a student at times, one thing that I have noticed having a substantial effect on my own learning and understanding is the astonishing increase and ease of access to information and examples. This site is just one example of that, but now every instrument has its own site or set of sites where a vast amount of information is exchanged daily (hourly, by the minute!), discussions, arguments, criticisms, analyses, and descriptions of experience are available to a huge audience. Not to mention YouTube and the video/audio examples and demos freely available there -- including what amount to series of master classes from genuine masters (along with a bunch of stuff from the less masterful :roll: ).
[/quote]
I think there's a recent phenomenon whereby these sites profitable, and that can lead to people with really wrong ideas but slick production values dominating.
I'm on a sports site where one of the common topics is how badly someone is teaching a particular skill, but they're teaching it really really well, with great photography and audio, and gaining lots of followers and advertising revenue.
You can send them a video of your performance and for a fee get back some criticism, but their income really comes from the ads. Those few people who really know biomechanics are aghast at some of the advice; the point is there is no way for the amateur to know what is correct.
From my perspective as an amateur player and totally outside both the professional performance and pedagogy spheres, other than as a student at times, one thing that I have noticed having a substantial effect on my own learning and understanding is the astonishing increase and ease of access to information and examples. This site is just one example of that, but now every instrument has its own site or set of sites where a vast amount of information is exchanged daily (hourly, by the minute!), discussions, arguments, criticisms, analyses, and descriptions of experience are available to a huge audience. Not to mention YouTube and the video/audio examples and demos freely available there -- including what amount to series of master classes from genuine masters (along with a bunch of stuff from the less masterful :roll: ).
[/quote]
I think there's a recent phenomenon whereby these sites profitable, and that can lead to people with really wrong ideas but slick production values dominating.
I'm on a sports site where one of the common topics is how badly someone is teaching a particular skill, but they're teaching it really really well, with great photography and audio, and gaining lots of followers and advertising revenue.
You can send them a video of your performance and for a fee get back some criticism, but their income really comes from the ads. Those few people who really know biomechanics are aghast at some of the advice; the point is there is no way for the amateur to know what is correct.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]I think there's a recent phenomenon whereby these sites profitable, and that can lead to people with really wrong ideas but slick production values dominating.[/quote]
The description of "these sites" is pretty vague. Much available on the web is junk. Much is not junk. It is important to engage your brain when evaluating it. However, for anyone with a brain to engage, it doesn't (as you point out) take a lot of effort to evaluate what you're looking at, compare it with other stuff, perform consistency checks, evaluate available critiques, etc. We do that here in this forum, right? Anyone can do it. Everyone should do it.
Okay ... wait ... given the state of the educational process today I guess I should re-evaluate what "take a lot of effort" means to a lot of people. Still the good stuff is there, and there's a lot of it. If someone falls prey to junk it's because they were too lazy not to -- precisely like all the people who get scammed because they're looking for something for nothing. People get led in large part through their own laziness.
The description of "these sites" is pretty vague. Much available on the web is junk. Much is not junk. It is important to engage your brain when evaluating it. However, for anyone with a brain to engage, it doesn't (as you point out) take a lot of effort to evaluate what you're looking at, compare it with other stuff, perform consistency checks, evaluate available critiques, etc. We do that here in this forum, right? Anyone can do it. Everyone should do it.
Okay ... wait ... given the state of the educational process today I guess I should re-evaluate what "take a lot of effort" means to a lot of people. Still the good stuff is there, and there's a lot of it. If someone falls prey to junk it's because they were too lazy not to -- precisely like all the people who get scammed because they're looking for something for nothing. People get led in large part through their own laziness.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Just saw this post on Facebook, and offer it FWIW.
Of course, this is just anecdotal. I honestly studied so long ago that I don't know if students were like that to the degree this guy complains about modern students being. If this is a trend -- and I've heard others complain that students are different nowadays in this and other ways -- I'm sure that has resulted in some changes in the way students are taught as compared to 50 years ago. If students change, teachers have to change, right?
Geoffrey Keezer
8 hrs ago
·
I teach at one of the preeminent, hardest-to-get-into music schools in the world, with supposedly the cream of the crop of music students intent on having a career in music when they graduate. Yet they can't be bothered to show up on time for a 9:30AM class. Nothing but lame excuses. The trains were messed up. Was up hanging at Small's till 3AM. My heater is broken. Ad nauseum. And when they do show up a half hour late (if at all), they haven't practiced and are unprepared. So I ask you students, how do you expect to have a career when you graduate if you can't get up in the morning? How are you going to make a 6AM lobby call on tour to get to the airport for an 8AM flight? The staying-up-all-night and sleeping on the plane thing gets old fast (and so does your body). How are you going to make a 10AM recording session that STARTS AT 10AM? I'm telling you, nobody cares that you live in Jersey or upstate or Queens or wherever people commute from (I commute and my ass was up at 6AM to be at work on time). This culture of "everybody gets an A", "everybody gets a medal" regardless of student's blatant disrespect for their lesson plans and their teachers (we have lives too, AND we play gigs late at night and still somehow manage to get up in the morning to take our kids to school and get to work on time) is not sustainable. Back to tough love, because it was still love. My mentors and bosses gave it to me straight, if I was out of line. It might have hurt my feelings for a day or two, but then I got my shit together. Students - if you're serious about wanting a career in music when you graduate, then GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER. Practice your assignments, do the work, and SHOW UP. Thanks.
Of course, this is just anecdotal. I honestly studied so long ago that I don't know if students were like that to the degree this guy complains about modern students being. If this is a trend -- and I've heard others complain that students are different nowadays in this and other ways -- I'm sure that has resulted in some changes in the way students are taught as compared to 50 years ago. If students change, teachers have to change, right?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Nor constrained to the present:
"Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We their sons are more worthless than they: so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt."
Horace
Odes, III, vi, l. 46
Ca. 20 BC
___________
“…a fearful multitude of untutored savages… [boys] with dogs at their heels and other evidence of dissolute habits…[girls who] drive coal-carts, ride astride upon horses, drink, swear, fight, smoke, whistle, and care for nobody…the morals of children are tenfold worse than formerly.”
Anthony Ashley Cooper, the 7th Earl of Shaftesbury, Speech to the House of Commons
February 28, 1843
----------------------
"If only things were like those glorious days of yesteryear, where the girls drove their coal-carts and spat, smoked, and fought. A simpler time. Nay, the kids these days give no care for timeliness, and doth arrive late to their 9:30 musical tutelage!"
Music teacher
in 2024
"Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We their sons are more worthless than they: so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt."
Horace
Odes, III, vi, l. 46
Ca. 20 BC
___________
“…a fearful multitude of untutored savages… [boys] with dogs at their heels and other evidence of dissolute habits…[girls who] drive coal-carts, ride astride upon horses, drink, swear, fight, smoke, whistle, and care for nobody…the morals of children are tenfold worse than formerly.”
Anthony Ashley Cooper, the 7th Earl of Shaftesbury, Speech to the House of Commons
February 28, 1843
----------------------
"If only things were like those glorious days of yesteryear, where the girls drove their coal-carts and spat, smoked, and fought. A simpler time. Nay, the kids these days give no care for timeliness, and doth arrive late to their 9:30 musical tutelage!"
Music teacher
in 2024
- bitbckt
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Aug 19, 2020
[quote="Burgerbob"]Kids these days, amirite?[/quote]
The beatings will continue until morale improves. :roll:
The beatings will continue until morale improves. :roll:
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
There is even a passage in the Iliad I believe where an old soldier laments that the heroes of his day were much more heroic and skilled than the heroes he was fighting alongside in the present (which included Achilleus, of course, possibly the most famous fighter of all time).
Now the big caveat is that in this case, the "old soldier" was probably 35 or something, complaining about people who were between 15-20 years old. I would bet that the ratio of age difference though (with regards to life expectancy) has stayed the same throughout history. Back in the day you definitely had to grow up a lot sooner than today.
Now the big caveat is that in this case, the "old soldier" was probably 35 or something, complaining about people who were between 15-20 years old. I would bet that the ratio of age difference though (with regards to life expectancy) has stayed the same throughout history. Back in the day you definitely had to grow up a lot sooner than today.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Back in the day you definitely had to grow up a lot sooner than today.[/quote]
Do you really have to grow up today? I say this from the perspective of having taught (graduate and undergraduate) in a fairly large (private) university circa 1973-1982, Then entirely in industry 1982-retirement in 2009, but working closely with a couple of large (state) university departments by running an internship program in AI/cognitive science, and after retirement teaching a course in one of those departments. Things had changed -- a LOT. Some for the better, some not. But I would not want to teach in a university today. The engineering schools/departments have largely (though not entirely) held the line in terms of requirements, objective evaluations, guidance, etc. Some of the pure sciences have. But many students are now taking 5-6 years to complete a bachelor's degree while going "full-time," and PhDs (even in the humanities) are often stretching into 6-8 years. Students can now "afford" that time -- both financially (though how is a good question), and in terms of their own goals (or lack of them). A lot of young people (and I mean "under 30", or even older) don't "need" a job today.
Of course the educational system has contributed to this by wanting to keep students (even excellent students) enrolled as long as possible for a variety of reasons I mostly won't go into, but some of which are obvious. I worked closely with a an excellent Ph.D. statistics student who was an intern of a colleague, and who in fact had finished his dissertation work, but whose adviser refused to schedule his dissertation defense and granting of the degree until he had (with her as co-author) published more of his work. That added two years to his program. For a year I played in a tuba section with a young (late 20s) cell biologist (different state university) whose degree was being delayed in the same way -- and who just wanted to get out and move on to a job in industry. You can't hire and support faculty if you don't have students. You can't get grants for your labs if you don't have (and retain) students capable of doing that work. Etc.
Master's degrees used to be 1-year degrees. Bachelor's degrees (with some exceptions such as architecture, and some engineering disciplines) used to be 4-year degrees, PhDs (definitely in the humanities, and often in other areas such as math) used to be 4-year degrees, start to finish. No more. There's a lot of money in play that's supporting what is basically "not growing up" -- or maybe "not having an independent life" is a more accurate description. It must be difficult for the young to struggle against this -- or perhaps even to see it happening.
Do you really have to grow up today? I say this from the perspective of having taught (graduate and undergraduate) in a fairly large (private) university circa 1973-1982, Then entirely in industry 1982-retirement in 2009, but working closely with a couple of large (state) university departments by running an internship program in AI/cognitive science, and after retirement teaching a course in one of those departments. Things had changed -- a LOT. Some for the better, some not. But I would not want to teach in a university today. The engineering schools/departments have largely (though not entirely) held the line in terms of requirements, objective evaluations, guidance, etc. Some of the pure sciences have. But many students are now taking 5-6 years to complete a bachelor's degree while going "full-time," and PhDs (even in the humanities) are often stretching into 6-8 years. Students can now "afford" that time -- both financially (though how is a good question), and in terms of their own goals (or lack of them). A lot of young people (and I mean "under 30", or even older) don't "need" a job today.
Of course the educational system has contributed to this by wanting to keep students (even excellent students) enrolled as long as possible for a variety of reasons I mostly won't go into, but some of which are obvious. I worked closely with a an excellent Ph.D. statistics student who was an intern of a colleague, and who in fact had finished his dissertation work, but whose adviser refused to schedule his dissertation defense and granting of the degree until he had (with her as co-author) published more of his work. That added two years to his program. For a year I played in a tuba section with a young (late 20s) cell biologist (different state university) whose degree was being delayed in the same way -- and who just wanted to get out and move on to a job in industry. You can't hire and support faculty if you don't have students. You can't get grants for your labs if you don't have (and retain) students capable of doing that work. Etc.
Master's degrees used to be 1-year degrees. Bachelor's degrees (with some exceptions such as architecture, and some engineering disciplines) used to be 4-year degrees, PhDs (definitely in the humanities, and often in other areas such as math) used to be 4-year degrees, start to finish. No more. There's a lot of money in play that's supporting what is basically "not growing up" -- or maybe "not having an independent life" is a more accurate description. It must be difficult for the young to struggle against this -- or perhaps even to see it happening.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Society today is very different than it was back when I was a student. If we look back even further I think the difference is much more pronounced.
Life is a lot more complicated than it used to be. Many jobs today require a deeper level of understanding of the field, requiring more training. Many people today are not happy with the amount of time and effort employers ask for while not providing similar pay and benefits from the days when it was common to work for one employer for your entire career. Today it's common for people to change their careers multiple times.
Gripe all you want about "kids these days," but back in "The Past" had its own share of problems that we've made progress towards fixing today. In many ways my students are more "grown up" than I was at their age, even while seeming behind in other areas.
Life is a lot more complicated than it used to be. Many jobs today require a deeper level of understanding of the field, requiring more training. Many people today are not happy with the amount of time and effort employers ask for while not providing similar pay and benefits from the days when it was common to work for one employer for your entire career. Today it's common for people to change their careers multiple times.
Gripe all you want about "kids these days," but back in "The Past" had its own share of problems that we've made progress towards fixing today. In many ways my students are more "grown up" than I was at their age, even while seeming behind in other areas.