Why does Watrous get such a bad rap on this site?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-12 3:11 p.m.

<ATTACHMENT filename="watrous.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~watrous.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

IMHO Bill Watrous was one of the finest trombonists ever. And he moved the instrument forward in his idiom. When Manhattan Wildlife Refuge came out, no one was playing like Billy. Today, lots of players can do stuff that was unheard of back in the 1970s, and it's because of Billy. And I don't think a trombonist has ever lived who could play ballads better than Watrous.

I'm biased because he was a friend, but I don't get why he gets such harsh treatment here from some.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-02-12 3:24 p.m.

Does he? I haven't seen that.

I was lucky enough to play with him in a reading band shortly before he died. He sounded great, playing and singing, and had some great stories for us.

Mr412 · by **Mr412** » 2024-02-12 4:09 p.m.

Out of respect, I never diss'd him around here or anywhere else in public. But a little bit of "Billy" goes a looooooooooong way on my ears. I'll put Urbie and JJ in that category as well, all for different reasons. I also disagree that he was the penultimate balladeer, but I get why others may think so. It's a matter of personal taste and there is no accounting for that. We all like what we like and it doesn't have to make any kind of sense. That's the wonderful thing about art.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-02-12 4:19 p.m.

Yeah, haven't really noticed that happening.

As a pure question of taste, you have to admit his style was towards the far end of one particular stylistic path.

Personally, I love it, but there's more "polarizing potential" than you might get from some others... and that's fine.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-12 4:23 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]Yeah, haven't really noticed that happening.

As a pure question of taste, you have to admit his style was towards the far end of one particular stylistic path.

Personally, I love it, but there's more "polarizing potential" than you might get from some others... and that's fine.[/quote]

This is interesting. What do you mean by "the far end of one particular stylistic path," and why is that "polarizing?" I just knew him as a commercial/jazz trombonist like a lot of people, just with incredible chops. So I'm not understanding this perspective, but it sounds like it might be behind my perception that he gets dissed around here. 'Splain it to me like I only have two functioning brain cells (not saying I have more than that, LOL!).

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-02-12 5:18 p.m.

I think if you are into the Fontana/Johnson style of flash and brilliance, Watrous comes off as a bit "tame". Personally I love his playing and wish I could even come close. But others may call for a different role model.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-12 5:29 p.m.

I wouldn't exactly call his playing "tame." Except his very first album.

In the '70's I listened to all of his albums constantly after the first time I heard him live at ITF in Nashville (ITW back then)

And bootleg recordings of Bill, Carl, and Frank.

I have a friend who knew Bill when he was in the Navy - early '60's I guess.

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2024-02-12 5:36 p.m.

I haven't seen anyone in here who would say Bill Watrous is no good or something like that. But for me personally I would say that I just like other players from the same era or in similar styles more. Especially since I recently discovered a lot of those Urbie Green records. But with like really "swinging" players, I just like Fontana and Rosolino more. And with the sweet style playing, I just enjoy listening to Urbie or Dick Nash a little more. Dick Nash especially because I really like this sound. To me it just sounds more full but also a bit more clear than Watrous. I remember Jiggs Whigham telling me at a rehearsal (back when I looked very much like Watrous lol) that Watrous was technically a beast but only until mezzopiano (can't recall the exact wording of him) and he would say Watrous was a microphone player, so he never played loud. Even when they played section together. Which I'm not sure of if all of this is really true to be honest and I'm sure others in here will say the opposite. Maybe there was a bit of a rivalry there, I don't know.

I haven't checked out much of the electrical stuff, so I can't really speak on that.

That said, I feel like one of the greatest trombone tunes I've heard is from that Slide Hampton World of Trombone album Spirit Of The Horn and Watrous plays 'A Flower is a Lovesome Thing'. Pure beauty and also one of my favorite titles, no matter how much I listen to it.

Bach5G · 2024-02-12 5:58 p.m.

I don’t know if Watrous necessarily gets a “bad rap” on this site but there are people here who are not his biggest fans. And some who are his biggest fans.

Is Watrous known to anyone who does not play trombone?

I’ll bite: who is the ultimate ballad player? Dorsey?

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-02-12 6:18 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="233905" time="1707772794" user_id="9763">
Yeah, haven't really noticed that happening.

As a pure question of taste, you have to admit his style was towards the far end of one particular stylistic path.

Personally, I love it, but there's more "polarizing potential" than you might get from some others... and that's fine.[/quote]

This is interesting. What do you mean by "the far end of one particular stylistic path," and why is that "polarizing?" I just knew him as a commercial/jazz trombonist like a lot of people, just with incredible chops. So I'm not understanding this perspective, but it sounds like it might be behind my perception that he gets dissed around here. 'Splain it to me like I only have two functioning brain cells (not saying I have more than that, LOL!).
</QUOTE>

Obviously, as a working commercial player he did all sorts of things that weren't Bill Watrous™, but we're talking about the stylistic choices as a soloist - the mic approach, dynamics, more-or-less fixed timbre, doodle. Who else sounded like him? Fontana, sometimes, but there was still much more tonal and dynamic inflection, and the doodling tended to be more intermittent.

These days you'd also see comparisons to Fedchock and McChesney thrown around... to the detractors, especially if they're players, it's all a bit too detached/cold/cerebral, the doodling is showing off, and the mic eating is inherently suspect. (That last part usually has some sort of unspoken implication about masculinity - trombone are loud and make big honk, and anything else is... cheating?)

The Fedchock comparison is particularly interesting, if only to me. I think that if you don't like "this sort of thing" generally, he and Watrous probably come across as quite similar.

But I find the opposite. To me, Watrous is still 100% in the vocal tradition, via Urbie, Dorsey... players who were fundamentally song stylists. The technique is there too, and sometimes in the foreground*, but the underlying sensibility was always pure crooner. (Confirmed by the fact that he could and would sing, and vib and all it's exactly like his playing... or rather, vice versa...) Fedchock isn't; whether by design, or just the change of generations breaking that link, it strikes me as a purely instrumental phenomenon.

Anyway, if what you really want is Curtis Fuller, then all these people aren't. And Watrous especially isn't.

*I don't doubt the impression Fourth Floor Walk-Up made in its moment, and being the first counts for plenty, but by his own later and accurate admission, there's really not much there musically. (I forget where is it - one of his long interviews, maybe the one with Michael Davis - essentially "I was young and had something to prove, but...")

Maybe that gives some sort of impression... of length, if nothing else.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-12 6:22 p.m.

I totally agree with that assessment

cmcslide · by **cmcslide** » 2024-02-12 6:42 p.m.

I heard Bill Watrous and Curtis Fuller together once at an ITA workshop, as it was known back then. Talk about opposite stylistic approaches! Many of the players mentioned here have a specific sound, some use the mic more than others; I prefer to be able to play on or off mic and use the entire sonic palette of the horn, but that’s just me. Nothing wrong with different styles and sounds!

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2024-02-13 3:52 a.m.

Fedchock & McChesney have quite a bit more harmonic content in their solos whereas Watrous & Fontana are more traditional in approach.

All have astounding chops but all wouldn’t be able to play the lines they do in a loud trombonistic way. But then why would they when they all make a great living and are famed as soloists.

I love em all <EMOJI seq="1f970" tseq="1f970">🥰</EMOJI>

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-02-13 4:51 a.m.

I have probably said somewhere that he is not my favorite. Obviously I would be more than happy to take his high chops and jazz playing to replace mine. For me personally, I just prefer other players such as Urbie Green, Carl Fontana, Andy Martin, Alan Kaplan, Bart van Lier, Ludwig Nuss etc. But I am just a classically trombonist with limited exposure to jazz, so my opinion doesn't count too much. I probably have only heard very little of his recordings which definitely limits my evaluation.

On the other hand I think we are all free to have our own preferences. I have other players who are generally considered as being "trombone heroes" who again are far beyond what I would ever be able to achieve, but I simply do not always enjoy their playing. Interestingly most of them have a very foreseeable and to a degree one-dimensional, even though impressive style. More details in private message only ;-)

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-02-13 7:52 a.m.

Not being as fun to listen to as Frank Rosolino doesn't mean that you're getting a bad rap. Just those hard facts tho.

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2024-02-13 8:25 a.m.

Word!

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2024-02-13 12:06 p.m.

An old friend, now passed, said he knew Bill at the Navy School, that he was just one of the trombones, sounded like everyone else. I've asked lots of people who knew Bill, How did he get motivated to change and how did he go about it? That to me is the most interesting question. All of us should want to be able to get onto a program to remake our playing so successfully.

(A related question, not for here, is, How can one develop a total improvisation practice routine that fully develops and maintains skill? Because it appears there is not enough time in the day to develop terrific improvisation chops and also spend time playing square exercises.)

For anyone who thinks Bill couldn't play like a regular trombone, see Navy comment above, or listen to Kai Winding's "Dirty Dog".

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-02-13 1:47 p.m.

I had a CD of Watrous fronting a big band that was billed as his first recording or something like that. Very early on his professional career to judge from the photo of a young guy on the cover.

The playing was competent enough but pretty unremarkable. I often wondered how he developed his chops after that. Too bad he’s gone. That might be a fascinating discussion.

Or maybe he’d say “practice”.

Sorry that he’s gone. To play in a rehearsal band with B would have been fun I bet.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-02-13 10:19 p.m.

In general, Bill's way of playing is fairly polarizing. You either really dig his unique approach and sound or you really don't. I haven't met anyone who is indifferent about it.

There is an old video of Bill playing in a trad jazz group, and sounding like any other trad jazz player. Maybe it was shared on TC? I can't remember. But it demonstrated that he could sound "normal" and play loud if he wanted to.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-02-13 11:27 p.m.

Giving “Bill Watrous a bad rap” may be argumentative and assumes a fact not in evidence. Or not. I have a boot leg cd and a Paul Williams cd that has some of the best trombone playing that I have heard. Some of Bill Watrous playing can get to display of technique for technicality’s sake. My mentor seemed to like it. I had to analyze the first movement of Bartok’s “Concerto for Orchestra.” I figured out the form and became enamored of it. (Also Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Fritz Reiner, and Bud Herseth.) I cannot claim to understand it it or replicate Bartok’s technique. Maybe I need to listen more to Bill Watrous. I doubt if I ever approach his technical ability.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-14 10:26 a.m.

It's good to be able to articulate what you like and don't like! Doesn't diminish his accomplishments. He certainly had fine trombone technique. Saying "he played soft" doesn't mean what he did was easy.

Watrous made choices. He was Roswell Rudd's roommate and studied with Herbie Nichols in the early 60s. He could have gone the way of Rudd and done probing hard hitting avant-jazz for discriminating (and small) audiences...

If you are a fan of that kind of take no compromises approach, embodied by the masters Ellington Bird Monk Coltrane etc (as I am) you will probably be disappointed by Watrous.

There's different types of technique. Improvisational technique, for example. Stylistic technique - the technique of avoiding cliche, of having discerning taste, the Miles Davis school of restraint and poise - that can be studied as rigorously as developing a good high range.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-02-14 10:58 a.m.

I recall Sam Burtis saying something very similar, that Bill ‘made his choices’.

Mr412 · by **Mr412** » 2024-02-14 11:44 a.m.

It appears to me that we have revealed more about our group diversity than anything about Bill Watrous. That's not a criticism. That's an observation.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-14 12:24 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]Giving “Bill Watrous a bad rap” may be argumentative and assumes a fact not in evidence.[/quote]

Do we have a trombone lawyer in the group? LOL! :D

Your Honor, obviously I am permitted to be argumentative in argument, and I submit that the very posts in this thread as compared with those in threads about other players constitute evidence that Watrous is analyzed and parsed and criticized in this forum in a manner that other trombonists generally are not. Every trombonist makes their choices, and every member likes different things, yet we do not see the kinds of comments about other players similarly critical of their choices.

Thank you. The prosecution rests.

I had to analyze the first movement of Bartok’s “Concerto for Orchestra.” ... I cannot claim to understand it it or replicate Bartok’s technique. Maybe I need to listen more to Bill Watrous. I doubt if I ever approach his technical ability.

Objection: lacks foundation, calls for speculation, calls for expert opinion. Besides, my head is spinning trying to figure out what heck this means! :D

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-14 12:25 p.m.

[quote="Mr412"]It appears to me that we have revealed more about our group diversity than anything about Bill Watrous. That's not a criticism. That's an observation.[/quote]

Amen. Viva la difference! :)

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-14 1:11 p.m.

On Watrous playing into mics: Every jazz soloist plays into mics, so I don't get that criticism. What I do agree with is that when playing live Watrous tended to bury the mic so far in his bell that it couldn't reproduce his tone, and often sounded stuffy or muddy. But in a recording studio or stage where someone else controlled the mic placement, or when he didn't swallow the mic, he had a rich, fabulous sound.

On Watrous playing softly: This is for sure where "choices" come into play. You simply cannot play the way he did by playing loud. I've tried. LOL! The flexibility falters, the doodle-tonguing loses fluidity and starts to sound like a machine gun, and the vocal approach is destroyed. It's a choice, yes, because you have to decide what it is you want to do, and make compromises to get there. As has been noted a couple times, Watrous could blast away with the best of 'em as a section player, but when he was doing his own solo thing he chose not to. Unlike so many trombonists who try to be all things (I'm guilty of this), Bill carved out his own identity, his own sound that was all his. That both made him the "celebrity" he was, and also limited his career (Bill used to whine all the time about why he wasn't getting some of the studio calls he thought he should have, and I think it came down to his unique identity) and appeal.

On not liking Watrous' "choices": That's cool. We all have our preferences, and that's what makes the world go 'round. But I guess the reason I asked the question to begin with is that you don't see comments or threads on this forum criticizing the choices Frank Rosolino made, for instance. Talk about a guy who sacrificed a lot to find his unique identity, Rosolino is the poster child for that. Yet exactly zero posts have criticized those choices. I think Watrous gets singled out for criticism the way LeBron James is constantly singled out despite being one of the best basketball players in history. In fact, now that I think about it, that Watrous/LeBron comparison is pretty apt, in terms of the critical social media comments they inspire.

On Watrous' "flash" over subtlety: Yeah, that's a criticism I share. Bill thought of jazz like a competitive athletic event, not as artistic expression. He wanted to "smoke" (i.e., play more impressively than) every soloist. When trading 8s with, say, Fontana, if Fontana played a high note, Bill had to play a higher one. If Fontana ripped off a fast passage, Watrous had to rip off a faster one. I think that tendency was a double-edged sword for him. It made his stuff less artistic, but it's also what drove him to become so freaking good at playing the twisted tube.

One thing I did love about Watrous is that, as ithinknot alluded to, he approached playing like a vocalist -- like a "crooner," as ithinknot observed. Boy, do I think that's true, and I think it's a really good approach to playing, in terms of air flow, control, consistency, and artistry. This is one reason why I think Watrous was such a great ballad player: he played ballads like a singer. I used to think that Watrous and Nat King Cole had an almost identical approach to ballads.

Finally, if you only heard Watrous in his later years, criticism would be well deserved. Bill fell off a cliff, playing-wise, after suffering cancer and a stroke. I'm amazed he ever came back from the stroke. The last time I was with him in person was a gig at The Jazz Bakery shortly after his stroke (around 2006 I think). It was very sad watching him struggle. But he was up there giving it everything he could, and you could still hear flashes of who he used to be. He never quit after that, but he never came all the way back, either.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-14 1:35 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Every jazz soloist plays into mics, so I don't get that criticism.[/quote]

What do you mean? on gigs? many don't use mics on gigs.

It is true that there are a wide variety of players who use mics as integral to their style. Curtis Fuller to Watrous is a great example - they are nearly stylistic opposites.

As to who has gotten criticism here, this was a thread about Roswell Rudd.

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=21614">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=21614</LINK_TEXT>

Most of my complaints about Watrous I also have about Fontana. But I haven't done a thread. I know many people, including players I admire, love his playing. That's fine with me!

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2024-02-14 1:44 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]

Finally, if you only heard Watrous in his later years, criticism would be well deserved. Bill fell off a cliff, playing-wise, after suffering cancer and a stroke. I'm amazed he ever came back from the stroke. The last time I was with him in person was a gig at The Jazz Bakery shortly after his stroke (around 2006 I think). It was very sad watching him struggle. But he was up there giving it everything he could, and you could still hear flashes of who he used to be. He never quit after that, but he never came all the way back, either.[/quote]

But where do you see that criticism? I don't see it. No one says, he can't play, he has no sound, he has no creative or musical relevant ideas. No one's saying that

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-02-14 1:46 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]On Watrous playing into mics: Every jazz soloist plays into mics, so I don't get that criticism. What <U>I do agree with is that when playing live Watrous tended to bury the mic so far in his bell that it couldn't reproduce his tone</U>, and often sounded stuffy or muddy. But in a recording studio or stage where someone else controlled the mic placement, or when he didn't swallow the mic, he had a rich, fabulous sound.[/quote]

So you do get the criticism, if it even is one. There is a big difference that you get in a live situation of the dynamic mic being even 12" away vs 1" or especially inside the bell.

I bet in the studio they put a ribbon out a few feet in front of him. Night and day.

I would argue that having the mic so close for him in a live setting allowed him to do technical feats on the trombone that wouldn't be heard by an audience if it wasn't miked that way. So, far from a blanket criticism, that technique was a part of his style. In a studio, you separate him acoustically, slap a much better mic a little further away on the guy, and then he can play the way he wants and you can have a clean audio track to EQ with a more accurate image of his sound.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-14 2:42 p.m.

[quote="EriKon"]

But where do you see that criticism? I don't see it. No one says, he can't play, he has no sound, he has no creative or musical relevant ideas. No one's saying that[/quote]

You hear them say, "Yeah, he's a good technician, BUT..." he has no creativity, no good ideas, he can't play loud, he's too flashy, plays too soft, plays only into a mic where he has a terrible sound, etc., etc., etc. Like they say, ignore everything before the "but," and you're left with a boatload of criticism. Criticism that, to me, is like saying, "Yeah, he speaks English well, BUT he can't even speak French."

You have to meet someone where they are. But with Watrous, lots of folks don't. No one says, "Well, Rosolino is good, but all he ever plays are turns, and he clams a lot of notes, and his tone suffers, and his pitch often goes wonky, and-and-and...." They don't. They meet Frank where he is, and acknowledge the greatness of the things that make him him, whether he's their favorite kind of player or not. No one criticizes him for the choices he has made.

But for some reason they do with Watrous. Something about him seems to be polarizing in a way I don't see here with other great players. I mean, compare what you read on this forum about Watrous to what you read about, say, Doug Elliot, as an obvious (and unfair) example. Do you see the kind of criticism of Doug that you do Watrous? Nope. Not even a bit. I use Doug as an example (sorry Doug!) because it's so obvious, but it still applies to what's written here about, e.g., Urbie Green, Dick Nash, Alan Kaplan, Rosolino, Andy Martin, Bob McChesney, and even guys in other genres like Christian Lindberg (now there's a guy who should be polarizing!) and Joe Alessi.

It's just my observation from reading the forum, and perhaps because he was a friend I reacted to what I perceived and felt like starting a thread about it, which was a really stupid idea (in a long line of stupid ideas that I've acted on in my life :D ).

Mr412 · by **Mr412** » 2024-02-14 3:12 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]

...It's just my observation from reading the forum, and perhaps because he was a friend I reacted to what I perceived...[/quote]

There is the essence right there!

Perhaps a lot of us could sub another player's name in for Bill Watrous for the very same reasons. I know I could.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-02-14 3:14 p.m.

Can we do Alessi next??

:biggrin:

Mr412 · by **Mr412** » 2024-02-14 3:24 p.m.

IMHO Joe Alessi is one of the finest trombonists ever. And he moved the instrument forward in his idiom. When The New York Philharmonic hired him, no one was playing like Joe. Today, lots of players can do stuff that was unheard of back in the 1970s, and it's because of Joe. And I don't think a trombonist has ever lived who could play the classics better than Alessi.

I'm biased because I am an admirer, but I don't get why he gets such harsh treatment here from some.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-02-14 3:28 p.m.

Again, it's down to choices... I really don't like some of the choices he makes, even if he is obviously one of the better orchestral/soloist players out there. Just like we have concluded about Bill.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-14 3:29 p.m.

"That both made him the "celebrity" he was, and also limited his career (Bill used to whine all the time about why he wasn't getting some of the studio calls he thought he should have, and I think it came down to his unique identity) and appeal."

Fwiw, Rosolino told me exactly the same thing, that he only got called to do solos, when he was perfectly capable of doing regular sessions.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-02-14 4:52 p.m.

Variety is the spice of life. Someone said that. The first famous professional trombonist I ever heard live was Watrous. Blew me away. I was in my first year of college in 1979. In January of 1980 I played in a concert with Slide Hampton with the college trombone choir. Also blew my mind! Completely different everything yet both completely amazing. We all gravitate to someone as our favorite-it's natural. Taking them all in and learning from all without being overly critical makes one a better player and musician in my opinion. Choices? We all make choices based on what we are experiencing and viewing in the moment. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes not. I think many spend too much time focusing on 1 individual at times. Is Joe Alessi possibly the post popular trombonist at the moment? I guess he is. He's made choices that some might agree with and others not. But there are so many other "orchestral players" that are also incredible that one might gravitate to. And if that's what you dig then good for you. Many here on The Chat would love to have made some of the choices that Watrous made at the time. But first you have to be that good.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-14 4:53 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]"That both made him the "celebrity" he was, and also limited his career (Bill used to whine all the time about why he wasn't getting some of the studio calls he thought he should have, and I think it came down to his unique identity) and appeal."

Fwiw, Rosolino told me exactly the same thing, that he only got called to do solos, when he was perfectly capable of doing regular sessions.[/quote]

this is all pretty wild...according to discogs Watrous is on 300 records. How many did he want to be on?

So...he was unhappy at being pigeonholed as a star soloist and wanted to do more section work? Lol being called as the star soloist is like the dream of every jazz musician.

Rosolino is listed on 700...I'm assuming some of that is compilations.

Anyway speaking of who gets "a bad rap" I'm gonna leave this hear for thought...this is from a Steve Turre interview from Javier Nero's dissertation on multiple tonguing.

Why do you think that teaching double and triple tonguing in jazz studies programs is not stressed as much as the doodle tongue technique?

ST: Well, it depends on where you are talking about...the red state schools? I'm being serious! The schools in the red states, mid-west, Florida, they stress doodle tonguing. They ain't going to acknowledge J.J. Carl Fontana couldn't play half as fast as Curtis Fuller and he has a shitty sound, I'll put it on the record. He has a

nice flow, he flows and that's something to be admired, but that's like minor league baseball and major league, and I really think it is a racial thing personally.

JN: That is interesting to hear that.

ST: Well you know when I look at who is really into it, unless they grew up in a white area and were taught by those kind of teachers in our culture, real jazz is African oriented. Who did Carl Fontana play with? Any black musicians? Nope, not a one, Frank Rosolino did a record with Sunny Stitt did you know that?

JN: I did not know that. I would like to hear that.

ST: Yeah, he grew up in Detroit. It's a black town, and a real jazz town, too.

ST: Yeah, syncopated. If you do them all the same, it don't mean nothing. Dizzy taught me that. It's like the hand drums, African drums. The tongue is your hand or the stick of the drum, if you play everything the same it’s boring rhythmically, you know? If you top that off with not having an open, warm, resonate sound... next! [laughs]

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-14 6:11 p.m.

Hmmmm... I very muh appreciate Steve Turre and all that he has done, but I don't know about that one.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-02-14 7:37 p.m.

“It's just my observation from reading the forum, and perhaps because he was a friend I reacted to what I perceived and felt like starting a thread about it, which was a really stupid idea (in a long line of stupid ideas that I've acted on in my life :D ).”

I think this is a brilliant topic and FWIW I think you’re right. Watrous is held to a higher standard and attracts more than his fair share of criticism.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-14 8:15 p.m.

There is a pretty clear preference among many of the J.J. Johnson disciples to reject Fontana and his influence and therefore Watrous and his ilk.

It's not universal - witness Slide Hampton who I'm assuming dug Watrous judging by the records they did together.

In Javier nero's dissertation, he also interviews Andre Hayward and Ron Westray and they both mention Watrous positively.

But to many others Fontana/Watrous style is a rejection of J.J. style clarity/precision/economy/swing feel.

Of course reality is more complex than just two distinct schools of playing but i have found this holds true pretty well.

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Melody it’s wonderful feeling

And deep emotional being

In the moments of playing

What is on their mind

Please play Valentine’s Day for

Someone you love <EMOJI seq="2764" tseq="2764">❤️</EMOJI>

Listen to Valentine’s Day

Played by someone you <EMOJI seq="2764" tseq="2764">❤️</EMOJI>

And try to play b it liy

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2024-02-14 8:17 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]...

according to discogs ... Rosolino is listed on 700...I'm assuming some of that is compilations.

Anyway speaking of who gets "a bad rap" I'm gonna leave this hear for thought...this is from a Steve Turre interview from Javier Nero's dissertation on multiple tonguing.

...[/quote]

Someone here may correct me, but Frank was basically complaining he didn't get the money sessions. The trombone studio clique at the time excluded him. His 700 dates didn't make the living.

Funny, I never ever listen to Steve, except when he passes by, and I admire his sound. It's sometimes remarkably like Carl's on a ballad, though Steve is a pretty strong uh and Carl mostly an ooo. I don't know who Collie Fontana's clientele was in Monroe, certainly the Italian American community but probably wider. Today the city is 63% black, so that's a lot of market to avoid. (You know what, we have on here Zemry, who's dad was in high school with Carl in the band and they were friends. Maybe he knows something about how the musicians mixed in the early 40s.) But by the time Carl got to Baton Rouge, there was vigorous gigging and cross-talk between LSU and Southern and the pros. I'll ask an old friend if the Lee Fortier Bebop Big Band had any black players. I'll bet it did. In a small market you don't get to exclude people and still fill your sections. And Lee was not that kind of guy. I don't think he saw any difference between people except how they played. Mose was in that band. Brew Moore. And if 1950 was like 1980, the real jazz gigs were private hires by black contractors on the north side of town. Below Florida Blvd was just too square. And I guess for Steve, Plas Johnson just doesn't count as people to play with. Maybe there's something in there. Plas had a song in his heart. He would pick up his cold horn and melody flowed out, new melody, endless melody.

Carl was wrestling with the tempos being played in bebop around 1948. He said, "I greatly admired the young JJ, because he was hanging out with some fast company, and he showed it could be done on a trombone". The fast tempos led him to hide in a practice room at the LSU School of Music and invent what he called doodle tonguing. Double or triple was out for him because he couldn't "get a good legato sound". I don't think he ever found out that JJ had been doodling. Doesn't seem like Steve ever knew either. Funny that, JJ's doodle came no where close to exploiting its rhythmic possibilities (proof left as an exercise for the reader). Curtis' da-ga was a pretty colorless machine gun affair by comparison, with limited rhythmic pallet. It seems he would find a fluid slide pattern to exploit and then run it into the ground. (That's easy to understand, though, as fluid paths are relatively few.) It's hard to imagine what Steve is thinking about. Curtis never seems to have caught on to the use of half-step tensions for color, fluidity and rhythm, which could have really opened him up. Carl could single tongue all day at 120, and doodle double time, so I'd like to hear the reference for Curtis' speed Steve is thinking about. But it's not the speed so much as the sense of the notes and their beauty at transcribing speed. Oh man.

So, I'm catching some Steve vid right now. Maybe he's saying "Carl made artistic choices I wouldn't make"? Carl chose to play "pretty songs", which I think generally mean from the extended songbook, with strong melodies. Steve seems fine with things with little melodic content and styles in a more New York tradition. To each his own. I would rather like to have seen something like Steve going toe to toe with Captain Kutcha. He could then clarify his position.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-02-14 9:22 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Can we do Alessi next??

:biggrin:[/quote]

Which version? He hasn't sounded the same his whole career!

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-02-14 9:25 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="234115" time="1707941689" user_id="3131">
Can we do Alessi next??

:biggrin:[/quote]

Which version? He hasn't sounded the same his whole career!
</QUOTE>

Very true. I do prefer some old school Joe to his current incarnation

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2024-02-14 9:33 p.m.

Hello all.

Personally , I am a J. J. Johnson fan , as well as a Slide Hampton and Frank Rosolino fan .

However , I like a lot Bill Watrous' playing .As Urbie Green' , Jack Jenney' , Tommy Dorsey' playing .

I think that one can appreciate or not BW ; of course it is matter of personal taste . That is perfectly fine . Anyway , I think that a trombone player who criticize him , have to be really brave ..

Being that I am not a native-english speaker , I would like to ask a question about the Steve Turre interwiew , because I am not sure to fully understood it .

He is saying that Doodle tonguing is an articolation choosen by musicians that do not acknowledge J. J. Johnson ?

This sound strange to me , because Slide Hampton was using that articolation too ( not in his early carreer) . I know this because I had a couple of lessons with him ( back in 1995 , when he was playing for a week in Rome) , and he showed me how to learn it .

Slide Hampton was a truly fan of J. J . , and he was a musician of the black community Steve Turre was talking about , and played with all the giants ( Dexter Gordon , Dizzy Gillespie , etc ) .

@JacobGarchik : in your essay , posted ( aug 08/2021) on the thread "WTF" ( Musicians section ,aug 08 2021) you wrote : 《......J. J. solution to this problem was to have an elegant style based on restraint , clarity , motivic development , an unprecedent technique , and when he needed it , a set of bebop "SNAKES" tailored to the trombone....》.

With the word SNAKES do you means some pre-packaged licks ?

I hope I have misunderstood ; If not , I think that you are pretty unfear concerning J. J. and his musical essence ...

@ Tbdana : you open this thread about BW , but on the thread "Why do trombonist suck at improvising" (Performance section jan 18/2021) you wrote ( page 5 , may 02/2023) : 《Bill Watrous was not a good Jazz player. Great technician , had big ears , and a great Jazz vocabulary , but he played the trombone , as opposed to play music . I never felt like he was much of an improvisational artist 》 .

I think you was a bit reductive about BW way of soloing . I personally like it .

Regards

Giancarlo

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-02-14 10:21 p.m.

I think a lot of the racial/proprietary/"African oriented"/"JJ rejection" angles only really present themselves if you assume that people who like Watrous think he was the Official Height of Jazz... and do they?

Now, not Downbeat/"Jazz Reader's Digest" respondents in 197x.

Isn't it, and wasn't it, somewhere between Nat King Cole and playing "the Maynard role" an octave down?

Patrick Williams, Johnny Mandel, small group Streisand covers... I'm not sure there was really that much misrepresentation going on.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-02-14 10:24 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Hmmmm... I very muh appreciate Steve Turre and all that he has done, but I don't know about that one.[/quote]

Maybe not all ...as we're "leaving things here for thought": https://medium.com/@kaliamariev/token-girl-564457c86f13

(KV is very much worth a listen, too, if anyone isn't familiar)

OneTon · 2024-02-15 12:07 a.m.

“ “

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2024-02-15 2:49 a.m.

Jimmy Cleveland doesn’t get a mention much, wasn’t he a purveyor of the doodle tongue?

Others that keep up with break neck speeds that don’t really use doodle tongue and play at all dynamics are Mark Nightingale, Marshall Gilkes and Elliot Mason.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-15 6:41 a.m.

[quote="GGJazz"]Hello all.

@JacobGarchik : in your essay , posted ( aug 08/2021) on the thread "WTF" ( Musicians section ,aug 08 2021) you wrote : 《......J. J. solution to this problem was to have an elegant style based on restraint , clarity , motivic development , an unprecedent technique , and when he needed it , a set of bebop "SNAKES" tailored to the trombone....》.

With the word SNAKES do you means some pre-packaged licks ?

I hope I have misunderstood ; If not , I think that you are pretty unfear concerning J. J. and his musical essence ...

[/quote]

No, by snakes, I mean linear vocabulary. Like the double time section from "Laura". elegantly chosen to be playable. It is not a negative.

re: tonguing, many musicians in different styles have chosen different techniques...J.J. said he also doodle-tongued. Carl Fontana did not "invent" doodle tonguing. I think there was another thread here where someone said that it appears in baroque recorder method books.

Steve Turre is not making a blanket statement about those who chose one technique or another. On the second syllable the "L" tongue shape obstructs the air cavity, but this can be overcome with practice or incorporated into the style.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2024-02-15 8:54 a.m.

Watrous - the beautiful thing about his playing on a jazz standard is that it's SO musical. When he 'doodles' it's in service to the music (on 99% of his recordings except 4th Floor where he said he was 'showing off' a bit). Beautiful phrasing, etc. What's not to love?

Turre - heard him play when he was with Woody Shaw. Lost interest in his playing after that. With Shaw, he was really creating something new.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-15 9:34 a.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]...

I mean linear vocabulary. Like the double time section from "Laura". elegantly chosen to be playable. It is not a negative.[/quote]

I have heard that JJ was very meticulous and preferred to work out his solos in advance, at least on recordings, which would explain the compositional aspect and the "elegantly chosen to be playable." I talked with him a few times, and felt like he spoke the same way, choosing his words very carefully.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-15 9:41 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik">
...

I mean linear vocabulary. Like the double time section from "Laura". elegantly chosen to be playable. It is not a negative.[/quote]

I have heard that JJ was very meticulous and preferred to work out his solos in advance, which would explain the compositional aspect and the "elegantly chosen to be playable." I talked with him a few times, and felt like he spoke the same way, choosing his words very carefully.
</QUOTE>

Yes...not to get sidetracked but this is to some extent true about a lot of classic jazz...if you listen to alternate takes of Giant Steps for instance there is quite a bit that is worked out (as to be expected for a difficult up-tempo chord progression). Or compare Miles's solo on "No Blues" "Live at Carnegie Hall" with "No Blues" from "Live at the Blackhawk" recorded the previous month.

on the other hand there are plenty of live J.J. records and we can hear him being as spontaneous as anyone.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-15 9:49 a.m.

Yes, I never got that impression from his live performances that I heard.

But to get back to Watrous, he sounded the same on recordings and live. Improvising out of his linear vocabulary.

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2024-02-15 9:50 a.m.

Hi all.

@ JacobGarchik : thanks for the clarification about the word "snakes" !

Regards

Giancarlo

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2024-02-15 11:52 a.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]<QUOTE author="GGJazz" post_id="234147" time="1707964433" user_id="15528">
Hello all.

@JacobGarchik : in your essay , posted ( aug 08/2021) on the thread "WTF" ( Musicians section ,aug 08 2021) you wrote : 《......J. J. solution to this problem was to have an elegant style based on restraint , clarity , motivic development , an unprecedent technique , and when he needed it , a set of bebop "SNAKES" tailored to the trombone....》.

With the word SNAKES do you means some pre-packaged licks ?

I hope I have misunderstood ; If not , I think that you are pretty unfear concerning J. J. and his musical essence ...

[/quote]

No, by snakes, I mean linear vocabulary. Like the double time section from "Laura". elegantly chosen to be playable. It is not a negative.

re: tonguing, many musicians in different styles have chosen different techniques...J.J. said he also doodle-tongued. Carl Fontana did not "invent" doodle tonguing. I think there was another thread here where someone said that it appears in baroque recorder method books.

Steve Turre is not making a blanket statement about those who chose one technique or another. On the second syllable the "L" tongue shape obstructs the air cavity, but this can be overcome with practice or incorporated into the style.
</QUOTE>

Ok, there are two quotes by me in here. Regarding Fontana "inventing" and regarding recorder tonguing.

I use "invent" to mean a person independently and originally develops something, and for Fontana that was certainly true. No one could ever say his invention of it was first, especially me, since it's obvious recorder virtuosos also use the technique, and I have posted that. I also pointed out above that JJ's doodle preceded Carl's invention of it. There is no contradiction there.

After listening to a lot of Steve last night, never paying much attention before, I conclude I haven't missed much. I am curious about his motivation for these comments. Is he a bitter man? Is he jealous? The things he says as opinion are inscrutable to me, but I showed some of the things he states as facts are just plain wrong. I think he must mean that these other players didn't play in his anointed authentic tradition so they're not real. I wish he would explain, I hate attributing things to people reading between their lines.

But last night's Steve listening session, harsh articulation, overblowing, using time not creating it, sawing wood, bombast, he should address those things first.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-02-15 3:29 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="234084" time="1707931447" user_id="16498">

Do we have a trombone lawyer in the group? LOL! :D

Your Honor, obviously I am permitted to be argumentative in argument, and I submit that the very posts in this thread as compared with those in threads about other players constitute evidence that Watrous is analyzed and parsed and criticized in this forum in a manner that other trombonists generally are not. Every trombonist makes their choices, and every member likes different things, yet we do not see the kinds of comments about other players similarly critical of their choices.

Thank you. The prosecution rests.

Objection: lacks foundation, calls for speculation, calls for expert opinion. Besides, my head is spinning trying to figure out what heck this means! :D[/quote]

I am so sorry when people become flummoxed over the difference between “argument” and “argumentative.” It turns out that the way a question is framed is important if truth or value is to be gained. A poorly stated question leads to nothing or nothing of value. Perhaps truth was the first casualty when Andy Gore invented the internet. When processes in general and Socratic method in particular become weaponized, the results are predictably poor.

The college professor that gave the Bartok assignment was a good saxophonist and improviser. He understood that the value of some things could only be discovered and appreciated by study. Steve Turre stated it poorly but actually got it right. In jazz, “if it sounds good it is good,” and some cats just can’t swing.
</QUOTE>
I

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-02-15 3:55 p.m.

This Steve Weist solo is jazz:

<YOUTUBE id="QZidl_pkU7E">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/QZidl_pkU7E?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-15 7:09 p.m.

Some players I enjoy listening to (JJ, Frank, Slide)

Some I ejoy because I want to play like them (Bill, Carl, Urbie)

That is neither.

harrisonreed · 2024-02-15 7:44 p.m.

It was a joke.

I think the OP premise is unfounded. It should be "why isn't Bill the most popular trombonist here on the forum?"

To which we've established an answer.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2024-02-15 7:44 p.m.

Hah! I just picked up a copy of "Manhattan Wildlife Refuge" this afternoon at an awesome local vinyl shop! How can one go wrong for $3 for vinyl in pristine shape? (....they didn't know what they had on the shelves)

Left a copy of it behind in a move over 30 years ago and haven't heard it since.....but....could still hum along with every note of the whole album!

'Zip City Blues'. Wow....for that particular time, place, arrangement, band, style, etc, Watrous sure set the bar high with that tune in addition to the famous 'Fourth Floor Walkup'. It's just perfect. Iconic.

Damn musical, exciting, and plain beautiful, amazing trombone playing. So great to listen to again after many years.

And, the cool thing about 'Fourth Floor Walkup' is the actual tune and the arrangement itself. A musical journey.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-15 7:57 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]It was a joke.

I think the OP premise is unfounded. It should be "why isn't Bill the most popular trombonist here on the forum?"

To which we've established an answer.[/quote]

Don't know if you're still joking, and you have a pattern of taking shots at me, but that actually isn't what the title should be.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-02-15 8:02 p.m.

It doesn't seem that he really has been that harshly criticized here. Where are you getting that from, I guess? Guy could play like crazy. His mic technique is the same as the Weist clip, up above, but the difference is night and day in terms of sound. Smooth vs ... Whatever was happening in the video I posted. I'm sure Steve was just having a laugh with that one, though...

I am a bit bummed that you are saying I've taken shots at you. I definitely haven't. This has been an interesting thread so far. Stirring the pot is very different from dumping the pot on someone's head.

Actually, it would be cool to hear about your connection to Bill and the other big names. It seems like you have a lot of stories to tell and met some cool people. You should write a topic about it.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-15 9:02 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]This Steve Weist solo is jazz:

<YOUTUBE id="QZidl_pkU7E">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/QZidl_pkU7E?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

Loud doodle!

Mr412 · by **Mr412** » 2024-02-15 9:03 p.m.

I thought it was actually pretty good scat-playing. I wouldn't want to listen to it all day, though. It would get very Charlie Parker-ish on my ears in a hurry. A tune or two like that from time-to-time is nice. Nice to hear Kai Winding get a little dirty, too. Not all trombone playing has to be "pretty-boy", or PBS worthy to have merit. Whether you liked Maynard or not, he had some decent people in and out of his groups.

Didn't Bill used to play on the Mike Douglas Show, in their house band? If so, that must have been before he was Bill Watrous, if you know what I mean.

I have always wondered when an icon became that person. Tommy Dorsey was a pretty good player in another genre before he became "Tommy Dorsey", the dance-band icon. So I wonder when Bill Watrous became "Bill Watrous". Maybe it was more incremental than epiphanic.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-02-15 9:16 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]This Steve Weist solo is jazz:[/quote]

Different strokes for different ...

Weist's solo got rave reviews on the YouTube channel. But t doesn't attract me (in spite of a sort of technical facility, which is impressive but does little for me musically).

I'd so much rather listen to Carl, Urbie, Bill, JJ, Frank, Andy,, Bob, ...

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2024-02-16 5:42 a.m.

:hi: In short. I have many Bill Watrous records and I still like to listen to them. Never get tired of that sound. One of the best in my book.

/Tom

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-02-16 6:12 a.m.

My morning ritual for driving my 4 year old to school… or really driving anywhere… involves him asking Siri for (usually in this order):

1. La Zorra (Bill Watrous)

2. In Walked Horace (usually JJ Johnson, but sometimes Capitol bones)

3. Next Time Take the Train (George Roberts)

4. Autumn Leaves (either the “Rawsoliio” as he pronounces it, or Capitol Bones)

5. “Shuffle sounds” (he means songs) by Urbie Green

6. Episode (Capitol Bones)

After listening to the first two eight MILLION times, I can report I haven’t gotten tired to listening to them!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-02-16 7:50 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="234238" time="1708044250" user_id="3642">
It was a joke.

I think the OP premise is unfounded. It should be "why isn't Bill the most popular trombonist here on the forum?"

To which we've established an answer.[/quote]

Don't know if you're still joking, and you have a pattern of taking shots at me, but that actually isn't what the title should be.
</QUOTE>

Maybe you could post some actual Watrous “bad rap” content from this site. Disagreeing with someone is not taking shots unless it’s done in a disrespectful manner.

tbdana · 2024-02-16 11:55 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I am a bit bummed that you are saying I've taken shots at you. I definitely haven't. This has been an interesting thread so far. Stirring the pot is very different from dumping the pot on someone's head.[/quote]

I guess I've misunderstood and owe you an apology. Social media is sometimes difficult to interpret correctly. I'm sorry if I've misunderstood. I get stirring the pot for fun not being personal. I'll keep that in mind in the future.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-16 12:01 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]Maybe you could post some actual Watrous “bad rap” content from this site.[/quote]

I thought about that, but I didn't want to hunt for posts to copy, and I believe it would have been impolite and improper to "call out" individuals. But I think in the body of this thread I've described the character of what I've observed. Maybe "bad rap" was a poor choice of words, but it certainly seems that Watrous is criticized for things other trombonists are not, and he is somehow polarizing and held to a higher standard (like I compared to social media content about LeBron James). If you don't agree, that's fine. I'm beginning to regret starting this thread. LOL

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2024-02-16 12:04 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="234220" time="1708030509" user_id="3642">
This Steve Weist solo is jazz:[/quote]

Different strokes for different ...

Weist's solo got rave reviews on the YouTube channel. But t doesn't attract me (in spite of a sort of technical facility, which is impressive but does little for me musically).

I'd so much rather listen to Carl, Urbie, Bill, JJ, Frank, Andy,, Bob, ...
</QUOTE>

Are we really comparing one solo by a person to those names? That would be an apples and oranges comparison.

First of all, it's a completely different style... Put Carl Fontana in to play that solo and it will be horrible. This is not swing or soft music, it's beat/groove music. You have to use a different approach playing that than playing a jazz ballad or even a bebop tune (although some bebop ideas might be cool). Still different choices you can make of course (and I would definitely do them too). No one has to like it.

And talking about things that don't do much musically to someone. Assuming you're talking about Bob Mcchesney when mentioning Bob (and not Bob Brookmeyer which I would agree with 1000%, does a lot to me), although the level of virtuousity is great, I barely heard records that did anything to me musically (not even in a trombonistic view). Maybe some of the earlier stuff where he played in bigbands, back when he wasn't necessarily known as the doodle guy who plays Bb major scale in lightspeed without moving the slide.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-02-16 12:30 p.m.

My favourite McChesney isn’t a doodle workout but rather, his version of The First Time I Ever etc.

Worth tracking down.

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2024-02-16 12:42 p.m.

The two trombonists I have listened to the most have probably been J.J. Johnson and Bill Watrous (Watrous might be tied with Jimmy Knepper who I learned about later in life for hours listened, but Watrous is better to me.)

I hear the same thing in both players. Their solos always have a beginning, middle and end. I hear melodies in their playing. Even when Watrous is going a million miles an hour, what he is playing usually sounds like something that was composed and intentional and not just what lays well on the horn to go fast.

J.J. probably gets worse treatment from trombonists (cold, emotionless, cliched), but those are subjective opinions that people are free to have. I feel differently when I listen to his playing. The fact that his solos are melodic and have direction, I think, is pretty clear.

Both artists clearly have complete control of what they want to have come out of the end of their horns.

4th Floor Walk Up was mentioned above. For me, that cadenza has always occupied the same place in trombone playing that Eddie Van Halen's Eruption solo does for guitar. That cadenza breaks down the limits of possibility on the trombone. And, for me, it still has logical development. "Not musical!" Is it any less musical than the Blue Bells variations? Argue as you like on that. The cadenza is a landmark in what can be done on the trombone. (With good micing?? ;) )

For me, my two favourites in the bop/post bop category have been and will likely always be, Bill and JJ because they got more from their horns, within their chosen parameters, without sounding like crap most of the time, than anyone else using similar techniques.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-02-16 12:49 p.m.

“The cadenza is a landmark in what can be done on the trombone.”

It certainly was in 1970.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-16 1:09 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“The cadenza is a landmark in what can be done on the trombone.”

It certainly was in 1970.[/quote]

And also in 1974 when it was released. :pant: :lol: :shuffle:

The implication is that it no longer is today, right? I think it still is. Of course, back in '74 no one else could do that stuff, and today lots of us can do at least some of it. In the cadenza Bill actually plays exercises that I and lots of others now practice, like this bit:

<ATTACHMENT filename="Screen Shot 2024-02-16 at 10.03.58 AM.png" index="2">~~[attachment=2]~~Screen Shot 2024-02-16 at 10.03.58 AM.png</ATTACHMENT>

And this jazz pattern bit:

<ATTACHMENT filename="Screen Shot 2024-02-16 at 10.05.44 AM.png" index="1">~~[attachment=1]~~Screen Shot 2024-02-16 at 10.05.44 AM.png</ATTACHMENT>

And this flexibility bit:

<ATTACHMENT filename="Screen Shot 2024-02-16 at 10.07.06 AM.png" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~Screen Shot 2024-02-16 at 10.07.06 AM.png</ATTACHMENT>

That cadenza may have lost some of its shock value over the decades, but IMHO it's still defining a standard of what can be done on the horn. I'd love to see something that goes beyond this cadenza in terms of technical possibilities. Please feel free to share it. It might inspire me to hit the woodshed again, the way Watrous' cadenza did back in the day. :)

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-16 1:13 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]My favourite McChesney isn’t a doodle workout but rather, his version of The First Time I Ever etc.

Worth tracking down.[/quote]

I'd like to track it down, but don't know what that is. Can you give more info?

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-02-16 2:04 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="234327" time="1708104606" user_id="2999">
My favourite McChesney isn’t a doodle workout but rather, his version of The First Time I Ever etc.

Worth tracking down.[/quote]

I'd like to track it down, but don't know what that is. Can you give more info?
</QUOTE>

The most I could find is just a taste:

https://bobmcchesney.com/best-of-bob-mcchesney/

brtnats · by **brtnats** » 2024-02-16 2:31 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik">
...

I mean linear vocabulary. Like the double time section from "Laura". elegantly chosen to be playable. It is not a negative.[/quote]

I have heard that JJ was very meticulous and preferred to work out his solos in advance, at least on recordings, which would explain the compositional aspect and the "elegantly chosen to be playable." I talked with him a few times, and felt like he spoke the same way, choosing his words very carefully.
</QUOTE>

Sam Burtis told me once that JJ used to plot field gun trajectories for the army, and that kind meticulousness and attention to detail carried over into other areas of his life.

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2024-02-16 2:39 p.m.

Hello all .

About the Steve Weist solo : in this video , he is pretty young , I think about 25 , and it is a live performance in a Festival , so maybe he was not so "focused".

Anyway , I think that his solo is just a " blew into the horn" .

Everybody knows that this is a different style than Jazz or Ballads , but players like Wayne Henderson , Fred Wesley , Nils Landgren , etc , would have play it in a wonderful more musical way .

I do not think that , as Erikon wrote , 《 put Carl Fontana in to play that solo and it will be horrible》.

Of course , if he had to play a solo like this , he would have fit the genre , playing in a different way respect how he is playing on jazz standards..

This solo is an "Open Bb7" on that style , every pro jazz trombone player knows how to play things that fit on it .

Regards

Giancarlo

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2024-02-16 3:47 p.m.

[quote="GGJazz"]This solo is an "Open Bb7" on that style , every pro jazz trombone player knows how to play things that fit on it[/quote]

I'll disagree with that statement. I can think of many players who won't play something that fits the style at all. Not the challenge of playing over Bb7. But the style and the ideas that will fit to it.

But this is a Bill Watrous and not a Steve Weist thread :D

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-16 4:41 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]This Steve Weist solo is jazz:

<YOUTUBE id="QZidl_pkU7E">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/QZidl_pkU7E?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

A perfect example of why Watrous plays softly into a mic. :D

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2024-02-16 5:12 p.m.

Hi.

@Erikon : well , maybe not all the pro jazz players can deal with this , but the most surely can .

Of course this is a thread about BW .

Anyway , looking at what you wrote 11 replies above , I think there is a little room for talking about SW also.

Regards

Giancarlo

Mr412 · by **Mr412** » 2024-02-16 5:19 p.m.

[quote="VJOFan"]...

I hear the same thing in both players. Their solos always have a beginning, middle and end. I hear melodies in their playing....[/quote]

I enjoyed all of your comments, but please forgive me if I am sharpshooting. Someone stated that JJ was a plotter in the military and so was I; for four-deuce mortars, so we at least have THAT much in common (lol). The standards I play have a melody line beginning, a bridge and a melody line re-statement to end it. There are probably musical terms for that layout. Anyway, it seems logical to me that when I solo over a chorus, my solos have a beginning, middle and end as well - I mean, if I'm following the script at all - and I expect a listener to be able to pick out at least fragments of the original melody as I go along. I don't consider this to be a profound thing that only the best of the best players do. I consider it to be fundamental. Just sayin'... Thanks.

CaptEquinox · by **CaptEquinox** » 2024-02-16 11:41 p.m.

Broadly speaking — Bill Watrous gets a bad rap (not here, necessarily) for a few different reasons. One is that, in his younger days, he was known as something of a hellion, at least potentially. That reputation eventually ended up preceding him to some degree when he’d go off to be a guest artist. On the playing side of things, some people were apt to feel that his amazing abilities on the horn could cross the border into gratuitousness. Importantly, though, a not small amount of virtuosos get stuck with that criticism, even including Oscar Peterson, a musician with no small amount of musical taste. Bill’s live performances could end up being a little bit of vaudeville, but my take is that (remembering back to high school), he enjoyed telling stories and doing different things to “get over” with the audiences, eg., playing the trombone backwards, etc. …

Trombo · by **Trombo** » 2024-02-17 8:37 a.m.

[quote="VJOFan"]The two trombonists I have listened to the most have probably been J.J. Johnson and Bill Watrous.[/quote]

Me too.

But these are two completely opposite directions in modern jazz trombone. Watrous leads the jazz trombone virtuosos, while JJ leads the bebopper trombonists.

I don't know a single professional trombonist in our country who doesn't admire Watrous' playing. Bill Watrous has pushed the boundaries of how the trombone can be played. He was the greatest trombone jazz virtuoso (IMHO).

On the contrary, our academic trombonists have a less enthusiastic attitude towards JJ, because his technique does not amaze them, and they do not understand anything about bebop.

But jazz critics and journalists have a completely different attitude. They consider the number one jazz trombonist of all time to be JJ because his improvisations were perfect in the context of bebop.

Jazz critics consider Watrous to be some kind of trombone magician or circus performer. In their opinion, Watrous was not a serious bebopper. Therefore, Watrous rarely appeared on DownBeat magazine's lists of the best trombonists, and JJ often topped the list of the best trombonists, even in years when he was not recording.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2024-02-17 10:06 a.m.

The wonderful thing about Watrous is that he helped put the trombone in a 'new light' with his virtuosity, and not just to trombone players.

The only troubling side is that now we have thousands of 'circus-freak' jazz trombone players that are all trying to play rings around each other and trying to lay claim to "Most virtuosic technical trombone freak" of all time.

(....no wonder so many non-trombone audience members just tune out at the mention of trombone players playing jazz gigs....we're our own worst enemies!)

Makes one just want to hear Watrous playing on a ballad....and listening to more Urbie Green again!

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-17 10:27 a.m.

I don't know...trombone virtuosity was not new...here's Britt Woodman doing a double Eb in 1959.

<YOUTUBE id="KsHM4mQdc_Q">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHM4mQdc_Q</YOUTUBE>

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-17 10:42 a.m.

[quote="CaptEquinox"]Bill Watrous...was known as something of a hellion, at least potentially.[/quote]

Heh! Yeah, that's kinda true. :D

...some people were apt to feel that his amazing abilities on the horn could cross the border into gratuitousness. ...Bill’s live performances could end up being a little bit of vaudeville, but my take is that (remembering back to high school), he enjoyed telling stories and doing different things to “get over” with the audiences.

Again true. Very accurate observations. Bill, deep in his "hellion" soul, was an entertainer first. He loved having a relationship with the audience. And if he had been born earlier and without trombone, he would have been right at home as a vaudevillian master of ceremonies, or juggling, or sawing a woman in half. :) In addition to playing, he loved telling jokes and stories (usually very bad ones), and singing (see previous parentheses), and doing gimmicks like spending excessive time playing multiphonics (is there an appropriate amount of multiphonics?). He wasn't a "serious artist" ("How dare you sneeze during my performance!!"), he just wanted to have a good time and for you to have a good time too.

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2024-02-17 12:10 p.m.

Hello again.

In my opinion , BW virtuosity was much more than hitting high notes .

His total control of the horn showed a way of playing pretty out-of-this-world .

Apart the famous cadenza played in 4th Floor Walk Up , all of you know for sure his small group performances , as this "Straight no chaser" , recorded live in London in 1982 in jazz 4et :

<YOUTUBE id="-Fb5DMxi4U8">https://youtu.be/-Fb5DMxi4U8?si=HLznxGv4xfYZkSz4</YOUTUBE>

Again , my favorite players are J.J. , Slide Hampton , Dickie Wells , Big Chief Russel Moore , Jimmy Harrison , etc . But I like a lot BW playing , as well as Urbie Green , etc .

Totally different kind of orientation about Music , but I need to listen to all players .

Anyway , how a trbn player can criticize a guy playing this way ... and then pick up his horn and blow on it ??

Regards

Giancarlo

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-02-17 12:17 p.m.

I think we can all agree it was just his hair.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-17 1:21 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I think we can all agree it was just his hair.[/quote]

What about the denim jacket with the giant "Bach" logo on the back?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-02-17 1:22 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I think we can all agree it was just his hair.[/quote]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-02-17 1:23 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="234412" time="1708190267" user_id="3131">
I think we can all agree it was just his hair.[/quote]

What about the denim jacket with the giant "Bach" logo on the back?
</QUOTE>

That comes around so far that it's very, very cool. The hair... perhaps not

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-02-17 3:02 p.m.

I don't know about that...look at these guys. <ATTACHMENT filename="MV5BZDFkNjc2YmMtN2U4OC00YTk3LTliMTUtNzJkYzFhNDUzYmExXkEyXkFqcGdeQWpnYW1i._V1_.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~MV5BZDFkNjc2YmMtN2U4OC00YTk3LTliMTUtNzJkYzFhNDUzYmExXkEyXkFqcGdeQWpnYW1i._V1_.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

EriKon · by **EriKon** » 2024-02-17 3:28 p.m.

This is not meant as critics at all. But the thing I'm wondering with everyone saying that his playing was ground-breaking, what exactly is it that hasn't been done before already? We heard players hitting high notes like fire (in Ellingtons band, Phil Wilson, Urbie Green, Rosolino) before. We heard players with crazy speed before (Tommy Turk, to some extent JJ, Slide Hampton, Carl, Eje Thelin). We heard players playing the sweet style incredibly tasteful before (Dorsey, Urbie, Dick Nash (not sure about the timeline there tho)). We heard players with insane solo performances in the very early 70s (George Lewis, Albert! (don't forget that Albert recorded his first solo record Trombirds in 1972), Eje Thelin to some extent, Conrad Bauer).

Many of those listed could belong to many categories. I might be mistaken, but those things all happened earlier. Is it that Watrous combined all of that and didn't belong to one style of playing? I mostly enjoy listening to Bill Watrous stuff, but I actually never thought of it as being ground-breaking or setting a bar that wasn't reached until then (I know the cadenza of '4th floor').

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2024-02-17 4:05 p.m.

Hello.

I think that every great musician is that level because of the previous great musicians who were there before him . He do not come from nowhere . Music is a tradition , so the new one develop what was done before . Charlie Parker do exist because Lester Young do existed before him.

Anyway , I guess that is exactly what Erikon wrote above which is amazing : the fact that Bill Watrous COMBINED (and improved) all , or at least many, of the previous players characteristics ( hitting super high notes , playing at crazy speed , improvising over chords progressions , playing lovely soft ballads , using new techniques as multiphonics and circular breathing , etc , etc) , . That made him a special guy , in my opinion . Who else did a "mix" like that ?

Regards

Giancarlo

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2024-02-20 5:46 a.m.

This discussion about trombonists has passed me by entirely!!

Growing up in rural Sweden, there weren't many trombonists's records to find, so the influences for my trombone playing were trumpeters like Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown and Fats Navarro. In the LP collection of the twelwe year old me there were only one trombonist record; a collection of Tommy Dorsey's "Best Of" - but three Morgan, one Navarro and three Brown. During a visit to Stockholm when I was fifteen, I finally stumbled on a record with J.J. and Nat Adderly, which I bought because of Nat, not J.J. since I'd never heard of him.

I was about twenty, twenty three when I first heard Rosolino, in my mid twenties when I heard Watrous and Fontana, so even if I am a through and through trombonist, my inner hearing is founded in the trumpet idiom.

So: Yay for Watrous, but I remain a Lee Morgan fanboy.

bassclef · by **bassclef** » 2024-02-20 11:46 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I think we can all agree it was just his hair.[/quote]
Back in high school, when my friends and I discovered his playing and his 1970's photos especially, we referred to him as Darth Watrous.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-02-20 12:06 p.m.

After really thinking about it for a while, I think I may have an inkling of what tbdana is talking about. I don't see a lot of really negative things being said about Bill Watrous' playing, but I think I see a tendency towards "qualified praise" (usually including words like "however" or "but") and "damning with faint praise". When you praise an artist for their technical skills without mentioning their artistic talent, that can sometimes be interpreted as an implication that their technical skills are the only thing that merits any praise at all.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-02-20 4:08 p.m.

Well his technical ability to play the instrument IS totally astounding.

nateaff · by **nateaff** » 2024-04-05 9:25 p.m.

Bill Watrous was maybe one of the cleverest and most technically capable trombonists ever, but his sound is not what any teacher anywhere teaches as the "correct" sound.

That being said, no basketball coach would ever teach a kid to shoot Reggie Miller's ugly jump shot and no baseball coach would ever teach Kevin Youkilis' ugly swing.

Just because he doesn't sound the way any of our teachers tell us we should sound doesn't mean it's wrong.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-04-05 9:52 p.m.

"his sound is not what any teacher anywhere teaches as the "correct" sound" ???

Hmmm

Sounds good and correct to me.

nateaff · by **nateaff** » 2024-04-06 12:16 a.m.

I agree completely, and I love it. I only meant to say that most of end up being steered into a particular direction of what a trombone is "supposed" to sound like (usually what our teachers sound like) - and positively nobody plays like Bill Watrous. He's one of one. To me that's part of why he's as great as he is.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-04-06 12:58 a.m.

And since you brought up Reggie Miller...

His brother Saul was an absolutely fantastic jazz tenor sax player in the Airmen of Note, when I was in.

ricksonntag · by **ricksonntag** » 2024-07-31 12:32 a.m.

This has been a very interesting thread to read. Bill Watrous was an amazing talent. Even though I am a trumpet player, I bought his then-new Manhattan Wildlife Refuge album at a very impressionable age, and I just could not stop playing it. I saw him live once at St. Mary's College in the mid-70s. I first heard him in the car on Felix Grant's "Album Sound" show on the radio, and immediately went to the nearest record store to buy it. It's hard to believe that we're at the 50th anniversary of its release, although the electronics and mix on the album do sound a little bit dated. I have both his Columbia releases and Reflections and some other things that he did with Patrick Williams. I'll have to pull them out and see how they have aged.

Fourth Floor Walkup came up in my car on shuffle play the other night. I hadn't heard it for over 20 years, and I mentioned to my wife that he could be a somewhat controversial figure. I shared with her a few stories of things I had heard from music insiders when I was in high school, college, and grad school (stomping out of gigs because they asked him to play forte, etc.), and that got me curious about how he is now remembered so I did some searching when I got home. That's how I found this discussion.

I will share one story that sums up how young trombone players in the 70s and 80s absolutely worshiped him, and how others, well, not so much. I share this slightly off-color story with respect, because I think it encapsulates both the good (which could be amazingly good) and the not-so-good (which I truly hope he grew out of later in life):

I played lead trumpet in the Princeton University Jazz Band in the early '80s. The band was totally student-run, so the students called the shots. The University gave us funding to hire a Musical Director for educational benefit and adult supervision <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> and we had a really good one. I won't name names, but he was a well regarded session drummer and educator in NYC (as well as a Marine veteran from President's Own). Every year we voted on a guest soloist for our spring concert, and every year it was the same story: Our M.D. told us that if we hired Bill Watrous he would quit on the spot. And every year Watrous would get exactly four votes - the entire trombone section. The rest of us had to collude ahead of time to make sure we didn't split our votes and allow Watrous to win. :lol: We had a really good M.D. and we didn't want to lose him. One year the trumpets got our way and we got Randy Brecker. :good: But we never got Bill Watrous. It would have been fun to have done that, especially the year after our M.D. stepped down (for other personal reasons).

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2024-07-31 4:30 a.m.

Wow! So Watrous gets a bad rap here?

I must immediately check that out; who'd wanna miss a bad rap?

.....though I think that too many people, too often, conflate opinions with advice and tell others to stay off that which they themselves do not like; telling themselves that they have provided advice when, in fact, they are unable to sort and formulate their impressions and how those impressions affect them emotionally.

A behaviour which I consider childish; immature and shallow without perspective.

LetItSlide · by **LetItSlide** » 2024-08-24 2:25 p.m.

Bill Watrous did a lot of amazing playing. That’s indisputable. For just plain beautiful trombone playing, I have yet to hear anyone surpass Urbie. One listen to “Let’s Face The Music And Dance,” and maybe you’ll agree. Bill was a fan of that playing. How can any trombonist not be?

LetItSlide · by **LetItSlide** » 2024-08-24 2:35 p.m.

I just listened to Love Walked In from that album. That’s the kind of playing I’m talking about.

BrianJohnston · by **BrianJohnston** » 2024-11-04 10:35 a.m.

I never heard anyone talk bad about him on TC. BW has arguably the greatest tone of any jazz trombonist… truly a king of ballads.

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Why does Watrous get such a bad rap on this site?