This forum is more about hardware than music, right?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I'm posting this because I don't see many folks here who think the way I do. I feel like a minority of one. I want to see if there are others who share my way of thinking.
Here's my TL;DR argument: A trombone is like a drill motor or a wrench. It's a tool used to do a job, like drilling a hole or tightening a bolt. The tool itself is unimportant, except to the extent it is fit for its intended purpose. After all, you don't use a hack saw to drill a hole, so you need to find a drill and a bit that will drill the right size hole in the medium you're drilling into. As soon as you identify the proper tool for the job (e.g., the kind of music you're playing), and you find one of quality that fits your hand/mouth, that should pretty much be the end of the tool discussion if your purpose is accomplishing some job. The only time tools need to be discussed in depth are if you're a tool manufacturer and the tool is the purpose, or you're a collector steeped in the history of the tool, which again renders the tool the purpose, not the purpose the purpose.
Here's the full argument:
Musicians will say, "I use this audio equipment to listen to my music."
Audiophiles will say, "I use this music to listen to my audio equipment."
By the numbers, this website is focused more on the trombone metaphorical equivalent of the "audiophile." Posts about hardware far exceed posts about music. In the music related fora there is a collective total of 40,631 posts on all possible music related subjects. In the hardware related fora, which is focused solely on our instruments, the very first forum labeled "Instruments," by itself, has almost the same number of posts as all the music forums on this site, combined. And the busiest fora and the most active threads are about equipment.
That leads me to conclude that, in general and looking at this from a numbers basis, people here are more focused on what they play rather than how they play.
The obsession with hardware confounds me. It's a rabbit hole and an addiction for some. To my mind, 95% of playing the trombone is about your body, skills, knowledge and musicality, and only 5% is about the hardware, if that much. Following that, 95% of the posts should be about music and only 5% about equipment. Yet hardware dominates the forum, and dominates many folks' thoughts and approach. If there is a problem with playing, for many the first recourse is to equipment. "Oh, I must need a different mouthpiece," is a much more prevalent solution than, "Oh, I need to adjust something about how I play."
Personally, I give very little attention to hardware. I bought a couple good horns, found a couple mouthpieces that fit me, and from then on all focus, thoughts and discussion get pointed right at me. Problems are related to me, not to the equipment. Solutions come from me, not from the equipment. Style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation, technique and playing are all about <U>me and how I play</U>[/u], not about my equipment. I have a "symphony" horn and a "jazz" horn. I'm happy with them both. My feeling is that with those two instruments I should be able to play anything, anywhere, at a professional level. If there are problems to be solved or tweaks to be made, they are with my playing, not my equipment. That's my approach.
The one thing almost no one ever talks about here, though I'd argue it's the most important part of tromboning, is artistry and and becoming an artist. For their entire lives, most trombonists are focused on playing their instrument. But it seems to me that when you reach a certain level of proficiency, the goal should be to completely forget about playing the instrument and even your awareness of playing it, and focus simply on creating music. And yet in a couple searches of the website I didn't find a single thread about that ultimate goal. But OMG are there a gazillion threads about which mouthpiece will fix a problem, or what model trombone is made better, or the like.
Doubtless the equipment-focused folks, by far the majority here by the numbers, will take umbrage at my observations and argument, and get their feathers ruffled because I'm essentially saying their main focus shouldn't be the main focus. But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)
Here's my TL;DR argument: A trombone is like a drill motor or a wrench. It's a tool used to do a job, like drilling a hole or tightening a bolt. The tool itself is unimportant, except to the extent it is fit for its intended purpose. After all, you don't use a hack saw to drill a hole, so you need to find a drill and a bit that will drill the right size hole in the medium you're drilling into. As soon as you identify the proper tool for the job (e.g., the kind of music you're playing), and you find one of quality that fits your hand/mouth, that should pretty much be the end of the tool discussion if your purpose is accomplishing some job. The only time tools need to be discussed in depth are if you're a tool manufacturer and the tool is the purpose, or you're a collector steeped in the history of the tool, which again renders the tool the purpose, not the purpose the purpose.
Here's the full argument:
Musicians will say, "I use this audio equipment to listen to my music."
Audiophiles will say, "I use this music to listen to my audio equipment."
By the numbers, this website is focused more on the trombone metaphorical equivalent of the "audiophile." Posts about hardware far exceed posts about music. In the music related fora there is a collective total of 40,631 posts on all possible music related subjects. In the hardware related fora, which is focused solely on our instruments, the very first forum labeled "Instruments," by itself, has almost the same number of posts as all the music forums on this site, combined. And the busiest fora and the most active threads are about equipment.
That leads me to conclude that, in general and looking at this from a numbers basis, people here are more focused on what they play rather than how they play.
The obsession with hardware confounds me. It's a rabbit hole and an addiction for some. To my mind, 95% of playing the trombone is about your body, skills, knowledge and musicality, and only 5% is about the hardware, if that much. Following that, 95% of the posts should be about music and only 5% about equipment. Yet hardware dominates the forum, and dominates many folks' thoughts and approach. If there is a problem with playing, for many the first recourse is to equipment. "Oh, I must need a different mouthpiece," is a much more prevalent solution than, "Oh, I need to adjust something about how I play."
Personally, I give very little attention to hardware. I bought a couple good horns, found a couple mouthpieces that fit me, and from then on all focus, thoughts and discussion get pointed right at me. Problems are related to me, not to the equipment. Solutions come from me, not from the equipment. Style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation, technique and playing are all about <U>me and how I play</U>[/u], not about my equipment. I have a "symphony" horn and a "jazz" horn. I'm happy with them both. My feeling is that with those two instruments I should be able to play anything, anywhere, at a professional level. If there are problems to be solved or tweaks to be made, they are with my playing, not my equipment. That's my approach.
The one thing almost no one ever talks about here, though I'd argue it's the most important part of tromboning, is artistry and and becoming an artist. For their entire lives, most trombonists are focused on playing their instrument. But it seems to me that when you reach a certain level of proficiency, the goal should be to completely forget about playing the instrument and even your awareness of playing it, and focus simply on creating music. And yet in a couple searches of the website I didn't find a single thread about that ultimate goal. But OMG are there a gazillion threads about which mouthpiece will fix a problem, or what model trombone is made better, or the like.
Doubtless the equipment-focused folks, by far the majority here by the numbers, will take umbrage at my observations and argument, and get their feathers ruffled because I'm essentially saying their main focus shouldn't be the main focus. But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
Part of the reason for the focus on hardware on this site is to make the artistry easier or closer to what you hear in your head. Another reason is many instruments and equipment are sold on this site.
There have been pedagogical posts which have been thought provoking and have improved my playing, and posts about musicians. Not much discussion about how to interpret a given work or etude, but you are certainly free to start these types of discussions and see where they land.
There have been pedagogical posts which have been thought provoking and have improved my playing, and posts about musicians. Not much discussion about how to interpret a given work or etude, but you are certainly free to start these types of discussions and see where they land.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Dana, we set up this Forum to allow both of your kinds of arguments.
One incredibly active part of the Forum is the Classifieds (buy and sell).
This has led to a lot of folks asking for evaluations of the different instruments available. I mean, how many Inderbinen's do you see in regular service? What if you suddenly were offered one -- should you consider it (you should)?
It's also a lot more fun to find something that might let you "buy virtuosity". I mean, who really wants to spend all that time practicing anyway ;)
We do get questions about techniques, especially from less experienced players. How do you play a march like "Rolling Thunder" without a good double tongue?
Artistry is a much more intangible subject. I see people saying things like "[insert name here] plays [insert song here] beautifully" and often arguments break out comparing different players' styles. We don't get much analysis, probably because the vast majority of us are not sophisticated enough to describe the aspects of style.
So yes, we have a lot more technical stuff here than artistic. Why not try to start some discussions about what you are concerned about and see where it goes?
One incredibly active part of the Forum is the Classifieds (buy and sell).
This has led to a lot of folks asking for evaluations of the different instruments available. I mean, how many Inderbinen's do you see in regular service? What if you suddenly were offered one -- should you consider it (you should)?
It's also a lot more fun to find something that might let you "buy virtuosity". I mean, who really wants to spend all that time practicing anyway ;)
We do get questions about techniques, especially from less experienced players. How do you play a march like "Rolling Thunder" without a good double tongue?
Artistry is a much more intangible subject. I see people saying things like "[insert name here] plays [insert song here] beautifully" and often arguments break out comparing different players' styles. We don't get much analysis, probably because the vast majority of us are not sophisticated enough to describe the aspects of style.
So yes, we have a lot more technical stuff here than artistic. Why not try to start some discussions about what you are concerned about and see where it goes?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
You're happy with your equipment. You're lucky, most people aren't.
I'm happy with mine too.
I worry about "style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation" on my gigs, I don't write about them here.
Manufacturers including myself are constantly trying to make equipment that makes it easier to do your job.
I don't see that as a problem... it's a solution.
I'm happy with mine too.
I worry about "style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation" on my gigs, I don't write about them here.
Manufacturers including myself are constantly trying to make equipment that makes it easier to do your job.
I don't see that as a problem... it's a solution.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]The obsession with hardware confounds me. It's a rabbit hole and an addiction for some. To my mind, 95% of playing the trombone is about your body, skills, knowledge and musicality, and only 5% is about the hardware, if that much.[/quote]
It is 100% an addiction for me. And this website has only made it better/worse. There are plenty of worse things I can be doing with my time and money, but for me I’ve found a great nerdy addiction centered around the trombone. I can’t explain it, and my friends and family think it’s ridiculous, but it’s what makes me happy.
Realistically though I’ve been using a King 3b since I was 16 (37 now) and I always come back to it or will play a 3bf if I need a valve. Same with mouthpieces. I played 6.5AL in high school. 7C in college. Hammond 14S (basically 7c) for 10 years post college and have since settled on an AR Resonance 25.10 about 5-6 years ago.
This probably doesn’t answer your question, but my goal here is to learn about gear so I can help guide younger musicians on what to possibly buy or try. And of course feed my own addiction.
For what it’s worth I teaching. Privately at the middle school and high school age. I also run a large ensemble at the collegiate level (pep band). And on top of that I perform somewhat regularly 1-3x’s per week.
It is 100% an addiction for me. And this website has only made it better/worse. There are plenty of worse things I can be doing with my time and money, but for me I’ve found a great nerdy addiction centered around the trombone. I can’t explain it, and my friends and family think it’s ridiculous, but it’s what makes me happy.
Realistically though I’ve been using a King 3b since I was 16 (37 now) and I always come back to it or will play a 3bf if I need a valve. Same with mouthpieces. I played 6.5AL in high school. 7C in college. Hammond 14S (basically 7c) for 10 years post college and have since settled on an AR Resonance 25.10 about 5-6 years ago.
This probably doesn’t answer your question, but my goal here is to learn about gear so I can help guide younger musicians on what to possibly buy or try. And of course feed my own addiction.
For what it’s worth I teaching. Privately at the middle school and high school age. I also run a large ensemble at the collegiate level (pep band). And on top of that I perform somewhat regularly 1-3x’s per week.
- cb56
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sep 17, 2023
I got a heck of a deal on 2x4s and hammers in the classified ads....<EMOJI seq="1f601" tseq="1f601">😁</EMOJI>
Really if you go to any instrument forum you'll see the same thing.
Really talking about music is like dancing about brain surgery.
Really if you go to any instrument forum you'll see the same thing.
Really talking about music is like dancing about brain surgery.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
I would say this forum is about what you want it to be about. I feel like it's very well structured and it gives everyone an opportunity to talk about whatever they want.
I like Doug's statement in here. Equipment can make your life as a trombone player a lot easier. But at the gig you shouldn't think about that. I'm interested in equipment things but at the gig I'll do everything I can to make music and do it as well as I can without a single thought about equipment. But not knowing anything about equipment isn't a good thing at all. And I definitely could do all my gigs with one large and one small bore (+ a bass trombone), but it would make work soooo much harder. Playing lead in a bigband on my 508 bore is so much harder compared to a 500 bore horn and it makes the sound I have in my head with much less effort. Same with large bore, I could do lots of my theatre and musical work with my Conn 88H, but it would be so much more work and much more exhausting. So it's great to have 525/medium bore horn for that.
But that's thought process that happens around practicing and playing gigs and NOT instead of practicing/playing gigs. When I practice I focus on getting better, technically or musically; when I play a gig I focus on playing the best I can, make myself and everyone else around me sound the best I can and make music with everything that is happening.
I like Doug's statement in here. Equipment can make your life as a trombone player a lot easier. But at the gig you shouldn't think about that. I'm interested in equipment things but at the gig I'll do everything I can to make music and do it as well as I can without a single thought about equipment. But not knowing anything about equipment isn't a good thing at all. And I definitely could do all my gigs with one large and one small bore (+ a bass trombone), but it would make work soooo much harder. Playing lead in a bigband on my 508 bore is so much harder compared to a 500 bore horn and it makes the sound I have in my head with much less effort. Same with large bore, I could do lots of my theatre and musical work with my Conn 88H, but it would be so much more work and much more exhausting. So it's great to have 525/medium bore horn for that.
But that's thought process that happens around practicing and playing gigs and NOT instead of practicing/playing gigs. When I practice I focus on getting better, technically or musically; when I play a gig I focus on playing the best I can, make myself and everyone else around me sound the best I can and make music with everything that is happening.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I am actually very interested in hearing anyone's playing on this forum. There are a few contributors here who have posted videos or audio of their playing, and I find that really fascinating. It's the best way to get to know where someone is coming from here.
There was a time when a lot more people were posting audio, and asking "what do you think of this?". Wish there was more of that.
But that takes a lot of guts. So we talk about gear a lot of the time. But not all the time :) !
There was a time when a lot more people were posting audio, and asking "what do you think of this?". Wish there was more of that.
But that takes a lot of guts. So we talk about gear a lot of the time. But not all the time :) !
- Mr412
- Posts: 207
- Joined: May 20, 2022
What Harrison wrote.
It's a good observation, Tbdana.
But unless you play like Bill Watrous or have a peanut gallery, you will probably only get a meh response.
I like you and I'm willing to be a cheerleader for you. So, let's hear what you got Tbdana! Lol
It's a good observation, Tbdana.
But unless you play like Bill Watrous or have a peanut gallery, you will probably only get a meh response.
I like you and I'm willing to be a cheerleader for you. So, let's hear what you got Tbdana! Lol
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I'm posting this because I don't see many folks here who think the way I do. I feel like a minority of one. I want to see if there are others who share my way of thinking.
Here's my TL;DR argument: A trombone is like a drill motor or a wrench. It's a tool used to do a job, like drilling a hole or tightening a bolt. The tool itself is unimportant, except to the extent it is fit for its intended purpose. After all, you don't use a hack saw to drill a hole, so you need to find a drill and a bit that will drill the right size hole in the medium you're drilling into. As soon as you identify the proper tool for the job (e.g., the kind of music you're playing), and you find one of quality that fits your hand/mouth, that should pretty much be the end of the tool discussion if your purpose is accomplishing some job. The only time tools need to be discussed in depth are if you're a tool manufacturer and the tool is the purpose, or you're a collector steeped in the history of the tool, which again renders the tool the purpose, not the purpose the purpose.
Here's the full argument:
Musicians will say, "I use this audio equipment to listen to my music."
Audiophiles will say, "I use this music to listen to my audio equipment."
By the numbers, this website is focused more on the trombone metaphorical equivalent of the "audiophile." Posts about hardware far exceed posts about music. In the music related fora there is a collective total of 40,631 posts on all possible music related subjects. In the hardware related fora, which is focused solely on our instruments, the very first forum labeled "Instruments," by itself, has almost the same number of posts as all the music forums on this site, combined. And the busiest fora and the most active threads are about equipment.
That leads me to conclude that, in general and looking at this from a numbers basis, people here are more focused on what they play rather than how they play.
The obsession with hardware confounds me. It's a rabbit hole and an addiction for some. To my mind, 95% of playing the trombone is about your body, skills, knowledge and musicality, and only 5% is about the hardware, if that much. Following that, 95% of the posts should be about music and only 5% about equipment. Yet hardware dominates the forum, and dominates many folks' thoughts and approach. If there is a problem with playing, for many the first recourse is to equipment. "Oh, I must need a different mouthpiece," is a much more prevalent solution than, "Oh, I need to adjust something about how I play."
Personally, I give very little attention to hardware. I bought a couple good horns, found a couple mouthpieces that fit me, and from then on all focus, thoughts and discussion get pointed right at me. Problems are related to me, not to the equipment. Solutions come from me, not from the equipment. Style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation, technique and playing are all about <U>me and how I play</U>[/u], not about my equipment. I have a "symphony" horn and a "jazz" horn. I'm happy with them both. My feeling is that with those two instruments I should be able to play anything, anywhere, at a professional level. If there are problems to be solved or tweaks to be made, they are with my playing, not my equipment. That's my approach.
The one thing almost no one ever talks about here, though I'd argue it's the most important part of tromboning, is artistry and and becoming an artist. For their entire lives, most trombonists are focused on playing their instrument. But it seems to me that when you reach a certain level of proficiency, the goal should be to completely forget about playing the instrument and even your awareness of playing it, and focus simply on creating music. And yet in a couple searches of the website I didn't find a single thread about that ultimate goal. But OMG are there a gazillion threads about which mouthpiece will fix a problem, or what model trombone is made better, or the like.
Doubtless the equipment-focused folks, by far the majority here by the numbers, will take umbrage at my observations and argument, and get their feathers ruffled because I'm essentially saying their main focus shouldn't be the main focus. But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
I totally get where you're coming from and I agree. I do think equipment talk has its place and I agree with Doug's point above, but still, it's bit crazy how little talk there is about music compared to equipment. From my perspective as a specialist of historically-informed performance, it's hard not to be slightly depressed when I look at the History of the Trombone subforum and see that 6 of the last 10 threads are actually about equipment (and usually about 20th century equipment, often that is still commonly used), when the history of our instrument – of how it was used, of how artistry and musicality on our instrument evolved – is so rich.
Here's my TL;DR argument: A trombone is like a drill motor or a wrench. It's a tool used to do a job, like drilling a hole or tightening a bolt. The tool itself is unimportant, except to the extent it is fit for its intended purpose. After all, you don't use a hack saw to drill a hole, so you need to find a drill and a bit that will drill the right size hole in the medium you're drilling into. As soon as you identify the proper tool for the job (e.g., the kind of music you're playing), and you find one of quality that fits your hand/mouth, that should pretty much be the end of the tool discussion if your purpose is accomplishing some job. The only time tools need to be discussed in depth are if you're a tool manufacturer and the tool is the purpose, or you're a collector steeped in the history of the tool, which again renders the tool the purpose, not the purpose the purpose.
Here's the full argument:
Musicians will say, "I use this audio equipment to listen to my music."
Audiophiles will say, "I use this music to listen to my audio equipment."
By the numbers, this website is focused more on the trombone metaphorical equivalent of the "audiophile." Posts about hardware far exceed posts about music. In the music related fora there is a collective total of 40,631 posts on all possible music related subjects. In the hardware related fora, which is focused solely on our instruments, the very first forum labeled "Instruments," by itself, has almost the same number of posts as all the music forums on this site, combined. And the busiest fora and the most active threads are about equipment.
That leads me to conclude that, in general and looking at this from a numbers basis, people here are more focused on what they play rather than how they play.
The obsession with hardware confounds me. It's a rabbit hole and an addiction for some. To my mind, 95% of playing the trombone is about your body, skills, knowledge and musicality, and only 5% is about the hardware, if that much. Following that, 95% of the posts should be about music and only 5% about equipment. Yet hardware dominates the forum, and dominates many folks' thoughts and approach. If there is a problem with playing, for many the first recourse is to equipment. "Oh, I must need a different mouthpiece," is a much more prevalent solution than, "Oh, I need to adjust something about how I play."
Personally, I give very little attention to hardware. I bought a couple good horns, found a couple mouthpieces that fit me, and from then on all focus, thoughts and discussion get pointed right at me. Problems are related to me, not to the equipment. Solutions come from me, not from the equipment. Style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation, technique and playing are all about <U>me and how I play</U>[/u], not about my equipment. I have a "symphony" horn and a "jazz" horn. I'm happy with them both. My feeling is that with those two instruments I should be able to play anything, anywhere, at a professional level. If there are problems to be solved or tweaks to be made, they are with my playing, not my equipment. That's my approach.
The one thing almost no one ever talks about here, though I'd argue it's the most important part of tromboning, is artistry and and becoming an artist. For their entire lives, most trombonists are focused on playing their instrument. But it seems to me that when you reach a certain level of proficiency, the goal should be to completely forget about playing the instrument and even your awareness of playing it, and focus simply on creating music. And yet in a couple searches of the website I didn't find a single thread about that ultimate goal. But OMG are there a gazillion threads about which mouthpiece will fix a problem, or what model trombone is made better, or the like.
Doubtless the equipment-focused folks, by far the majority here by the numbers, will take umbrage at my observations and argument, and get their feathers ruffled because I'm essentially saying their main focus shouldn't be the main focus. But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
I totally get where you're coming from and I agree. I do think equipment talk has its place and I agree with Doug's point above, but still, it's bit crazy how little talk there is about music compared to equipment. From my perspective as a specialist of historically-informed performance, it's hard not to be slightly depressed when I look at the History of the Trombone subforum and see that 6 of the last 10 threads are actually about equipment (and usually about 20th century equipment, often that is still commonly used), when the history of our instrument – of how it was used, of how artistry and musicality on our instrument evolved – is so rich.
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="Mr412"]But unless you play like Bill Watrous or have a peanut gallery, you will probably only get a meh response.[/quote]
I thought we all collectively hated Bill Watrous
I thought we all collectively hated Bill Watrous
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I think all the people who (like me) tend to obsess about the hardware are also about the music. There are a couple of problems. First, trombone hardware is 100% inside the topic of trombone. But trombone music is also part of so many other things. Also, you can explore music in whatever world you live in, but hardware for a lot of people is hard to access. I know for me, I only get hardware if I buy it. Plus, I'm an engineer, so hardware is kind of intrinsic to what I do.
Even discussions about music eventually swing into writing, arranging, transcribing, etc... And then you start talking about software like Finale, Sibelius, Musescore, etc. and computers and you're side tracked into the technical again.
I've started many threads about specific kinds of music, mainly looking for suggestions for tunes or sources for arrangements, but I admit, it's kind of lopsided. Sometimes the music related threads alienate one kind of person or another. Sometimes jazzers can't relate to counting measures in an orchestra, or legit cats don't blow the blues, and military musicians don't understand academics and vice versa.
For the first 30 years of my time holding a trombone, I had pretty much only used a single trombone - my 68 88h. But once I cracked that window open a little, I got curious, and just couldn't stop it. If I had to get rid of all the trombones except one, I'd wind up where I started, or close anyway. I'd be right back to the 8h or 88h with the 525 slide.
Your posts tend to be more about the music business than about music itself. I don't know, I'm good with all of it. There are so many different aspects, nothing is unwelcome.
Except someone pretending to be a trombone player, but really just testing out AI... Or maybe they really are a trombone player, or really looking for sympathy or... whatever.
Even discussions about music eventually swing into writing, arranging, transcribing, etc... And then you start talking about software like Finale, Sibelius, Musescore, etc. and computers and you're side tracked into the technical again.
I've started many threads about specific kinds of music, mainly looking for suggestions for tunes or sources for arrangements, but I admit, it's kind of lopsided. Sometimes the music related threads alienate one kind of person or another. Sometimes jazzers can't relate to counting measures in an orchestra, or legit cats don't blow the blues, and military musicians don't understand academics and vice versa.
For the first 30 years of my time holding a trombone, I had pretty much only used a single trombone - my 68 88h. But once I cracked that window open a little, I got curious, and just couldn't stop it. If I had to get rid of all the trombones except one, I'd wind up where I started, or close anyway. I'd be right back to the 8h or 88h with the 525 slide.
Your posts tend to be more about the music business than about music itself. I don't know, I'm good with all of it. There are so many different aspects, nothing is unwelcome.
Except someone pretending to be a trombone player, but really just testing out AI... Or maybe they really are a trombone player, or really looking for sympathy or... whatever.
- RossM
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Jan 27, 2022
It’s a pretty abstract topic compared to hardware or technical practice. How would you want to go about discussing artistry?
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Frank Zappa: Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
[quote="Bach5G"]Frank Zappa: Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.[/quote]
"It looks just like a Telefunken U-47. You'll love it - (with leather?)".
"It looks just like a Telefunken U-47. You'll love it - (with leather?)".
- cb56
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sep 17, 2023
[quote="Bach5G"]Frank Zappa: Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.[/quote]
I knew it was something like that
I knew it was something like that
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Another problem about discussing artistry is that something called "taste" gets involved. What sounds artistic to you may not sound artistic to me. My idea of phrasing, dynamics, and articulation may be very different from yours.
And how do you get artistry from the nuts and bolts of playing? When do you create a phrase using dynamics or a particular articulation? How can you create a long phrase when you need to take 3 breaths to play it?
Lots of difficult items that could be explored.
And how do you get artistry from the nuts and bolts of playing? When do you create a phrase using dynamics or a particular articulation? How can you create a long phrase when you need to take 3 breaths to play it?
Lots of difficult items that could be explored.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]I am actually very interested in hearing anyone's playing on this forum. There are a few contributors here who have posted videos or audio of their playing, and I find that really fascinating. It's the best way to get to know where someone is coming from here.
There was a time when a lot more people were posting audio, and asking "what do you think of this?". Wish there was more of that.
But that takes a lot of guts. So we talk about gear a lot of the time. But not all the time :) ![/quote]
I don't know if it takes guts or just stupidity. LOL! :D But in April I'll be putting some things on tape to mark my 1-year anniversary of picking up the horn again, and I might post one or two of them here for all the raves, meh, snark, criticism, or whatever comes my way. I'm realistic about where I'm at and am up for the commentary. I think I'm still a decent player, though light years from when I was at my best, and I'm my own worst critic, so folks can bring it on.
Hopefully, my willingness to make a fool of myself will inspire others to think, "Heck, I can do better than that!" and post their own stuff. Including you, Harrison. Join in, if you haven't already. :)
There was a time when a lot more people were posting audio, and asking "what do you think of this?". Wish there was more of that.
But that takes a lot of guts. So we talk about gear a lot of the time. But not all the time :) ![/quote]
I don't know if it takes guts or just stupidity. LOL! :D But in April I'll be putting some things on tape to mark my 1-year anniversary of picking up the horn again, and I might post one or two of them here for all the raves, meh, snark, criticism, or whatever comes my way. I'm realistic about where I'm at and am up for the commentary. I think I'm still a decent player, though light years from when I was at my best, and I'm my own worst critic, so folks can bring it on.
Hopefully, my willingness to make a fool of myself will inspire others to think, "Heck, I can do better than that!" and post their own stuff. Including you, Harrison. Join in, if you haven't already. :)
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Mr412"]What Harrison wrote.
It's a good observation, Tbdana.
But unless you play like Bill Watrous or have a peanut gallery, you will probably only get a meh response.
I like you and I'm willing to be a cheerleader for you. So, let's hear what you got Tbdana! Lol[/quote]
As I just said to Harrison, I'll be putting some stuff on tape next month to mark my 1-year anniversary back on the horn, and I'll post one or two of them here.
Heck maybe I'll even take a shot at a Bill Watrous tune and post that for everyone's amusement. :D
It's a good observation, Tbdana.
But unless you play like Bill Watrous or have a peanut gallery, you will probably only get a meh response.
I like you and I'm willing to be a cheerleader for you. So, let's hear what you got Tbdana! Lol[/quote]
As I just said to Harrison, I'll be putting some stuff on tape next month to mark my 1-year anniversary back on the horn, and I'll post one or two of them here.
Heck maybe I'll even take a shot at a Bill Watrous tune and post that for everyone's amusement. :D
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I've posted music or pedagogy things a few times and received little to no response at times. Just how it goes
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi folks.
I am not e "gear guy" , being that I am playing with the same horn ( King Duo-Gravis bass trbn) from maybe 15 years , and with the same mpc from maybe 10 .
( Anyway , I think that a "wrong-for -you" mpc can create many obstacles to the performance , and can be detrimental ) .
I agree that the main thing to improve your ability ( both in a musical and technical way) depends on you , not in your hardware .
Said this , I think that a problem is that HERE we are just WRITING on a chat ; we are not talking to each others in person , and this generates many misunderstanding .
So , in my opinion , it can be very difficult ( of course not impossible) to want to talk "deeply" about artistry . Also because I personally think that music is first a sensorial ( I hope this can be the right word) experience , because you HEAR it first ; then , also an intellectual one .
So , I think that writing about music is not like dancing about architecture ; is like writing about smells and taste . Can you really describe the strawberry' taste with words?
Well , maybe someone can ..
I guess that normally , it is newspapers critics that wrote about artistry .
And whoever is a master of eloquence , can make many beautiful speechs without saying nothing , at the end .
Regards
Giancarlo
I am not e "gear guy" , being that I am playing with the same horn ( King Duo-Gravis bass trbn) from maybe 15 years , and with the same mpc from maybe 10 .
( Anyway , I think that a "wrong-for -you" mpc can create many obstacles to the performance , and can be detrimental ) .
I agree that the main thing to improve your ability ( both in a musical and technical way) depends on you , not in your hardware .
Said this , I think that a problem is that HERE we are just WRITING on a chat ; we are not talking to each others in person , and this generates many misunderstanding .
So , in my opinion , it can be very difficult ( of course not impossible) to want to talk "deeply" about artistry . Also because I personally think that music is first a sensorial ( I hope this can be the right word) experience , because you HEAR it first ; then , also an intellectual one .
So , I think that writing about music is not like dancing about architecture ; is like writing about smells and taste . Can you really describe the strawberry' taste with words?
Well , maybe someone can ..
I guess that normally , it is newspapers critics that wrote about artistry .
And whoever is a master of eloquence , can make many beautiful speechs without saying nothing , at the end .
Regards
Giancarlo
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hello again .
About posting our own stuff here , I have already done it ( Media Section : "Some of my YouTube videos", 10 aug 2022 ) . Being this a Trombone Chat , I guess it is a pretty normal thing .
However , it wouldn' t be a good thing if we listened to each others just to make a "duel-style" bloody comparation ... What this have to do with "artistry" and Music ?
Each of us plays better than someone , and worse than someone else...
Regards
Giancarlo
About posting our own stuff here , I have already done it ( Media Section : "Some of my YouTube videos", 10 aug 2022 ) . Being this a Trombone Chat , I guess it is a pretty normal thing .
However , it wouldn' t be a good thing if we listened to each others just to make a "duel-style" bloody comparation ... What this have to do with "artistry" and Music ?
Each of us plays better than someone , and worse than someone else...
Regards
Giancarlo
- chouston3
- Posts: 167
- Joined: Dec 19, 2023
I am a huge gear head. I enjoy all things gear and I don't get to have those conversations in real life. This forum fills a niche for me.
I am a comeback player. I haven't posted any recordings because I am not entirely happy with the way I sound. Things are getting better week by week but I do not have anything that I want to show off. I do not have any lingering problems that have not gotten better with more practice.
I would be interested if someone posted an easy melody so we could all compare approaches to phrasing. I might join in on something like that.
I am a comeback player. I haven't posted any recordings because I am not entirely happy with the way I sound. Things are getting better week by week but I do not have anything that I want to show off. I do not have any lingering problems that have not gotten better with more practice.
I would be interested if someone posted an easy melody so we could all compare approaches to phrasing. I might join in on something like that.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I'd love to add some thoughts - and I honestly have hesitated before posting even this much, to be honest.
Offering up artistic advice or advice that goes against the grain here is often not worth the potential for becoming a flashpoint. I had a person threaten a teaching job I held for no real reason, and if/when you have a job that could potentially be sensitive to a complaint, it's just not worth it. It's easier to focus on "objective" technique and equipment at the expense of the subjective personal relationship of art and music.
I like to share my own views here and there on my own videos, and sometimes I share them here, and the response has been kind and nice so far, which has felt nice, and a slow change has occurred over the years from my being more of an "unknown" trombonist. But this forum has its own culture and people, which has been curated over time, and making a choice to be more "fitting in" than fighting by being quiet has felt correct to me.
The amount I could say about brass pedagogy is high, but it won't serve people as well as when I get a chance to work with them in person. Serving it up without sufficient context or being able to be assume good faith often isn't worth it professionally, for better or worse. Additionally, there's no reason for me to call out anyone I might end up working with professionally, or even be perceived as doing so, which is a reason I think a lot of "pros" tend not to engage, even if they read what's posted here and there.
You can always start the conversation you want to see, but you can't control people's reactions to it.
Offering up artistic advice or advice that goes against the grain here is often not worth the potential for becoming a flashpoint. I had a person threaten a teaching job I held for no real reason, and if/when you have a job that could potentially be sensitive to a complaint, it's just not worth it. It's easier to focus on "objective" technique and equipment at the expense of the subjective personal relationship of art and music.
I like to share my own views here and there on my own videos, and sometimes I share them here, and the response has been kind and nice so far, which has felt nice, and a slow change has occurred over the years from my being more of an "unknown" trombonist. But this forum has its own culture and people, which has been curated over time, and making a choice to be more "fitting in" than fighting by being quiet has felt correct to me.
The amount I could say about brass pedagogy is high, but it won't serve people as well as when I get a chance to work with them in person. Serving it up without sufficient context or being able to be assume good faith often isn't worth it professionally, for better or worse. Additionally, there's no reason for me to call out anyone I might end up working with professionally, or even be perceived as doing so, which is a reason I think a lot of "pros" tend not to engage, even if they read what's posted here and there.
You can always start the conversation you want to see, but you can't control people's reactions to it.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I had a course in college that was entirely about phrasing. It was just for performance majors on all instruments. I'm not sure how common or uncommon that is but I found it extremely interesting and useful.
It involved assigning numbers to each note in a phrase, to indicate its importance to the phrase shape. I pretty much use that concept in everything I play, in any genre. And I try to write parts that way in my arrangements.
It involved assigning numbers to each note in a phrase, to indicate its importance to the phrase shape. I pretty much use that concept in everything I play, in any genre. And I try to write parts that way in my arrangements.
- mgladdish
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Oct 10, 2021
I agree, and it's a rabbit hole some do get drawn into. Sometimes with no escape. The flip side is I find I have very little to say about the musicality side. It's very personal and situational and doesn't really lend itself to an online discussion.
For example I did a gig yesterday where we played a custom arrangement of Elgar's Enigma Variations for jazz orchestra (trust me it sounds better than it, er, sounds). The approach to playing lead and in the section for that is stylistically completely different to how I'd normally approach big band playing. Everything broad, warm and absolutlely full-length with exaggerated swells as each phrase comes in an out of the melody. But what is there to discuss about that? It doesn't make a great deal of sense without hearing the piece.
That said, I don't know enough about equipment to start threads on that, either. So I guess all I'm really saying is I'm more of a lurker than a commenter! :shrug:
For example I did a gig yesterday where we played a custom arrangement of Elgar's Enigma Variations for jazz orchestra (trust me it sounds better than it, er, sounds). The approach to playing lead and in the section for that is stylistically completely different to how I'd normally approach big band playing. Everything broad, warm and absolutlely full-length with exaggerated swells as each phrase comes in an out of the melody. But what is there to discuss about that? It doesn't make a great deal of sense without hearing the piece.
That said, I don't know enough about equipment to start threads on that, either. So I guess all I'm really saying is I'm more of a lurker than a commenter! :shrug:
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
It's fairly time-consuming to produce the type of content you suggest and doesn't lend itself to being very consumable in text format.
- Trav1s
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Jul 26, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I'm posting this because I don't see many folks here who think the way I do. I feel like a minority of one. I want to see if there are others who share my way of thinking.
<B>Here's my TL;DR argument: <I>A trombone is like a drill motor or a wrench. It's a tool used to do a job, like drilling a hole or tightening a bolt.</I> The tool itself is unimportant, except to the extent it is fit for its intended purpose. After all, you don't use a hack saw to drill a hole, so you need to find a drill and a bit that will drill the right size hole in the medium you're drilling into. As soon as you identify the proper tool for the job (e.g., the kind of music you're playing), and you find one of quality that fits your hand/mouth, that should pretty much be the end of the tool discussion if your purpose is accomplishing some job. The only time tools need to be discussed in depth are if you're a tool manufacturer and the tool is the purpose, or you're a collector steeped in the history of the tool, which again renders the tool the purpose, not the purpose the purpose.</B>
Here's the full argument:
Musicians will say, "I use this audio equipment to listen to my music."
Audiophiles will say, "I use this music to listen to my audio equipment."
By the numbers, this website is focused more on the trombone metaphorical equivalent of the "audiophile." Posts about hardware far exceed posts about music. In the music related fora there is a collective total of 40,631 posts on all possible music related subjects. In the hardware related fora, which is focused solely on our instruments, the very first forum labeled "Instruments," by itself, has almost the same number of posts as all the music forums on this site, combined. And the busiest fora and the most active threads are about equipment.
That leads me to conclude that, in general and looking at this from a numbers basis, people here are more focused on what they play rather than how they play.
The obsession with hardware confounds me. It's a rabbit hole and an addiction for some. To my mind, 95% of playing the trombone is about your body, skills, knowledge and musicality, and only 5% is about the hardware, if that much. Following that, 95% of the posts should be about music and only 5% about equipment. Yet hardware dominates the forum, and dominates many folks' thoughts and approach. If there is a problem with playing, for many the first recourse is to equipment. "Oh, I must need a different mouthpiece," is a much more prevalent solution than, "Oh, I need to adjust something about how I play."
Personally, I give very little attention to hardware. I bought a couple good horns, found a couple mouthpieces that fit me, and from then on all focus, thoughts and discussion get pointed right at me. Problems are related to me, not to the equipment. Solutions come from me, not from the equipment. Style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation, technique and playing are all about <U>me and how I play</U>[/u], not about my equipment. I have a "symphony" horn and a "jazz" horn. I'm happy with them both. My feeling is that with those two instruments I should be able to play anything, anywhere, at a professional level. If there are problems to be solved or tweaks to be made, they are with my playing, not my equipment. That's my approach.
The one thing almost no one ever talks about here, though I'd argue it's the most important part of tromboning, is artistry and and becoming an artist. For their entire lives, most trombonists are focused on playing their instrument. But it seems to me that when you reach a certain level of proficiency, the goal should be to completely forget about playing the instrument and even your awareness of playing it, and focus simply on creating music. And yet in a couple searches of the website I didn't find a single thread about that ultimate goal. But OMG are there a gazillion threads about which mouthpiece will fix a problem, or what model trombone is made better, or the like.
Doubtless the equipment-focused folks, by far the majority here by the numbers, will take umbrage at my observations and argument, and get their feathers ruffled because I'm essentially saying their main focus shouldn't be the main focus. But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
I've been sitting with this and find myself thinking this is a both/and convesation.
Beside trombone and music, I enjoy bicycles - I repair them, ride them, and love to learn about them. The online conversation are very similar to those of this forum. Hot topics include:
- Frame materials - steel is real, aluminum is harsh but light, carbon fiber is the way or who wants to ride a plastic bottle, titanium is the holy grail but unaforable
- Components - Shimano/Sram/Microshift/vintage
- Brakes disc or rim
- Steel, carbon, or suspension fork
- Tires (Schwalbe/Bridgestone/Panaracer/Continental or the rubber band/balloon debate)
The list goes on for bikes.
Trombones are quite similar if we look at the conversation:
Brand (Bach/Con/King)
Vintage/new/boutique
Valve type
Bell materials and weight
Wide or narrow slide
Mouthpiece type
Mouthpiece brand
Leadpipe
The list goes on.
I think it comes to down to subject things we can easily control that shape a given outcome. If I want to go faster on the bike, easiest thing to do is reduce the weight of the bike which can be accomplished many different ways. If I want to be comfortable on long rides then I look at other attributes of the bike and focus there.
When it comes to playing, I think much is lost on the interwebz if recordings are done poorly or with inadequate equipment. This casues me to shy away because I lack the resources to put my best game out to the group. Nuances and sound details are missed or overlooked and potentially do the sharring individual a disservice. As an amature, there are many great players on the forum who greatly intimidate me. I know they are willing to support and help me grow but my own insecurity remains. Instead of being vulnerable, I join the conversation about subjective (safe) topics like horns.
Personal story that speaks to both sides...
When I switched to trombone (many years ago) my teacher told me the horn to get and that was that - $20 Reynolds for marching band and a Bach 36B for concert band. I played around with mouthpieces and landed on a Schilke 51B. The entire time I owned the 36B, I had a love hate relationship with it. Was it me? Was it the horn? I eventually sold it to a family member after college and bought it back when he upgraded to large bore. Kept it several more years and eventually sold it before grad school. After a break from playing, I came back to playing and discovered the world of Conn via a borrowed 72H. I then discovered the 79H as an alternative to the 36B and purchased one. It's a great horn and I love it but something I could not name was missing. A visit with Doug Elliott at ITF 2018 uncovered the magic of the horn with a mouthpiece that works for me. With that in mind, I returned to exploring large bore horns with the focus on Conn and Conn-like horns. I love the feel and response but the sound lacked something. Learning from the 79H mouthpiece choice experience, I picked up a DE setup for large bore and continue the quest for that sound. 30+ years later - I want a large bore that fits between the Conn and Bach worlds with a yellow brass bell.
So which is it - Instrument, mouthpiece, player, time?
Definitely easier to talk about the instument but what I have been looking for was much more subjective - A particular feel/response paired with full sound will sparkle on the outer edges. Not gonna happen on red or gold brass as much as I like it...
<B>Here's my TL;DR argument: <I>A trombone is like a drill motor or a wrench. It's a tool used to do a job, like drilling a hole or tightening a bolt.</I> The tool itself is unimportant, except to the extent it is fit for its intended purpose. After all, you don't use a hack saw to drill a hole, so you need to find a drill and a bit that will drill the right size hole in the medium you're drilling into. As soon as you identify the proper tool for the job (e.g., the kind of music you're playing), and you find one of quality that fits your hand/mouth, that should pretty much be the end of the tool discussion if your purpose is accomplishing some job. The only time tools need to be discussed in depth are if you're a tool manufacturer and the tool is the purpose, or you're a collector steeped in the history of the tool, which again renders the tool the purpose, not the purpose the purpose.</B>
Here's the full argument:
Musicians will say, "I use this audio equipment to listen to my music."
Audiophiles will say, "I use this music to listen to my audio equipment."
By the numbers, this website is focused more on the trombone metaphorical equivalent of the "audiophile." Posts about hardware far exceed posts about music. In the music related fora there is a collective total of 40,631 posts on all possible music related subjects. In the hardware related fora, which is focused solely on our instruments, the very first forum labeled "Instruments," by itself, has almost the same number of posts as all the music forums on this site, combined. And the busiest fora and the most active threads are about equipment.
That leads me to conclude that, in general and looking at this from a numbers basis, people here are more focused on what they play rather than how they play.
The obsession with hardware confounds me. It's a rabbit hole and an addiction for some. To my mind, 95% of playing the trombone is about your body, skills, knowledge and musicality, and only 5% is about the hardware, if that much. Following that, 95% of the posts should be about music and only 5% about equipment. Yet hardware dominates the forum, and dominates many folks' thoughts and approach. If there is a problem with playing, for many the first recourse is to equipment. "Oh, I must need a different mouthpiece," is a much more prevalent solution than, "Oh, I need to adjust something about how I play."
Personally, I give very little attention to hardware. I bought a couple good horns, found a couple mouthpieces that fit me, and from then on all focus, thoughts and discussion get pointed right at me. Problems are related to me, not to the equipment. Solutions come from me, not from the equipment. Style, fit, blend, range, musicality, interpretation, technique and playing are all about <U>me and how I play</U>[/u], not about my equipment. I have a "symphony" horn and a "jazz" horn. I'm happy with them both. My feeling is that with those two instruments I should be able to play anything, anywhere, at a professional level. If there are problems to be solved or tweaks to be made, they are with my playing, not my equipment. That's my approach.
The one thing almost no one ever talks about here, though I'd argue it's the most important part of tromboning, is artistry and and becoming an artist. For their entire lives, most trombonists are focused on playing their instrument. But it seems to me that when you reach a certain level of proficiency, the goal should be to completely forget about playing the instrument and even your awareness of playing it, and focus simply on creating music. And yet in a couple searches of the website I didn't find a single thread about that ultimate goal. But OMG are there a gazillion threads about which mouthpiece will fix a problem, or what model trombone is made better, or the like.
Doubtless the equipment-focused folks, by far the majority here by the numbers, will take umbrage at my observations and argument, and get their feathers ruffled because I'm essentially saying their main focus shouldn't be the main focus. But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
I've been sitting with this and find myself thinking this is a both/and convesation.
Beside trombone and music, I enjoy bicycles - I repair them, ride them, and love to learn about them. The online conversation are very similar to those of this forum. Hot topics include:
- Frame materials - steel is real, aluminum is harsh but light, carbon fiber is the way or who wants to ride a plastic bottle, titanium is the holy grail but unaforable
- Components - Shimano/Sram/Microshift/vintage
- Brakes disc or rim
- Steel, carbon, or suspension fork
- Tires (Schwalbe/Bridgestone/Panaracer/Continental or the rubber band/balloon debate)
The list goes on for bikes.
Trombones are quite similar if we look at the conversation:
Brand (Bach/Con/King)
Vintage/new/boutique
Valve type
Bell materials and weight
Wide or narrow slide
Mouthpiece type
Mouthpiece brand
Leadpipe
The list goes on.
I think it comes to down to subject things we can easily control that shape a given outcome. If I want to go faster on the bike, easiest thing to do is reduce the weight of the bike which can be accomplished many different ways. If I want to be comfortable on long rides then I look at other attributes of the bike and focus there.
When it comes to playing, I think much is lost on the interwebz if recordings are done poorly or with inadequate equipment. This casues me to shy away because I lack the resources to put my best game out to the group. Nuances and sound details are missed or overlooked and potentially do the sharring individual a disservice. As an amature, there are many great players on the forum who greatly intimidate me. I know they are willing to support and help me grow but my own insecurity remains. Instead of being vulnerable, I join the conversation about subjective (safe) topics like horns.
Personal story that speaks to both sides...
When I switched to trombone (many years ago) my teacher told me the horn to get and that was that - $20 Reynolds for marching band and a Bach 36B for concert band. I played around with mouthpieces and landed on a Schilke 51B. The entire time I owned the 36B, I had a love hate relationship with it. Was it me? Was it the horn? I eventually sold it to a family member after college and bought it back when he upgraded to large bore. Kept it several more years and eventually sold it before grad school. After a break from playing, I came back to playing and discovered the world of Conn via a borrowed 72H. I then discovered the 79H as an alternative to the 36B and purchased one. It's a great horn and I love it but something I could not name was missing. A visit with Doug Elliott at ITF 2018 uncovered the magic of the horn with a mouthpiece that works for me. With that in mind, I returned to exploring large bore horns with the focus on Conn and Conn-like horns. I love the feel and response but the sound lacked something. Learning from the 79H mouthpiece choice experience, I picked up a DE setup for large bore and continue the quest for that sound. 30+ years later - I want a large bore that fits between the Conn and Bach worlds with a yellow brass bell.
So which is it - Instrument, mouthpiece, player, time?
Definitely easier to talk about the instument but what I have been looking for was much more subjective - A particular feel/response paired with full sound will sparkle on the outer edges. Not gonna happen on red or gold brass as much as I like it...
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
So a very lazy take here from me… this is a trombone forum… that already highlights the equipment. Not a jazz forum, a renaissance music forum, a late romantic forum, or a classical theme forum. If you wanted to discuss the music divorced from the instrument, forums based around those concepts are likely to be a better interaction.
That said, I’m more in the Harrison/Aiden notes above… not a lot of people post examples of playing, and it is way easier to talk about physical dimensions that can be described and measured than to talk about the artistry.
That said, I’d love to hear more playing here,
Andy
That said, I’m more in the Harrison/Aiden notes above… not a lot of people post examples of playing, and it is way easier to talk about physical dimensions that can be described and measured than to talk about the artistry.
That said, I’d love to hear more playing here,
Andy
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I like to see it when people post recordings they've created or just stuff they like. I've posted a couple of myself playing, but I find it difficult to do (because I lack the audio hardware and technical knowledge :pant: )
My main musical interaction here is on literature - so what printed music is available, and from where, secondarily what does it sound like. I think we can have all of these conversations.
When it comes to the hardware, I don't have any illusion that one horn is going to make me play any better than another, I'm just kind of fascinated with the different types of sound you can get from different types of or combinations of hardware.
My main musical interaction here is on literature - so what printed music is available, and from where, secondarily what does it sound like. I think we can have all of these conversations.
When it comes to the hardware, I don't have any illusion that one horn is going to make me play any better than another, I'm just kind of fascinated with the different types of sound you can get from different types of or combinations of hardware.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I can't think of a forum I've participated in -- which involves in some fundamental way "hardware" (including such domains as woodworking, metalworking, machining, firearms from antique to modern, tuba, euphonium, trombone, motorcycling/racing, etc.) -- where a preponderance of the threads don't include discussions of hardware to some degree and in one way or another. If you broaden "hardware" to "technology", then this is true even in more "cerebral"/"intellectual" domains such as chess, writing/publishing, and education.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Yeah, I'm not as interested in hardware compared to many other trombonists too. Those discussions don't bother me at all, I look at them occasionally but largely spend my time reading other topics.
What I appreciate about this forum, compared with the old Trombone Forum, is that the content here is largely music related. On TTF the Chit-Chat section was the most active area by far and sometimes those discussions spilled out into the music related topics.
What I appreciate about this forum, compared with the old Trombone Forum, is that the content here is largely music related. On TTF the Chit-Chat section was the most active area by far and sometimes those discussions spilled out into the music related topics.
- Mertelstein
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Oct 13, 2023
Hats off to Dana for starting such a good thread. I’ve been mulling it over since you posted the topic. I think the discussions I’ve most enjoyed on here have been the “tangential” ones - Dana’s one about orchestral playing, and (not because of my thoughts but the comments people put on there) my own one about what makes a true bass trombonist.
I’m really interested in the performance / composition ones but discussions seem to be a bit “edgier” in those. I think the opinions seem much more polarised as expressed there and I’ve not engaged in those so far.
But there’s a place for the hardware discussion too - with a dearth of fellow players and knowledge around me I’ve heavily depended on some excellent advice I’ve had on this forum, and one user in particular has helped advise me on a massive change with my main bass which I might not have found out without this forum.
On the other hand, being European based the classifieds are 90% useless for me!!!
All told it’s a wonderful mix with some very knowledgeable people on this forum in my view.
I’m really interested in the performance / composition ones but discussions seem to be a bit “edgier” in those. I think the opinions seem much more polarised as expressed there and I’ve not engaged in those so far.
But there’s a place for the hardware discussion too - with a dearth of fellow players and knowledge around me I’ve heavily depended on some excellent advice I’ve had on this forum, and one user in particular has helped advise me on a massive change with my main bass which I might not have found out without this forum.
On the other hand, being European based the classifieds are 90% useless for me!!!
All told it’s a wonderful mix with some very knowledgeable people on this forum in my view.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Why dismissive of people who like horns and gadgets? I’m curious enough to want to experiment with horns, mouthpieces, handgrips, tone halos, what have you.
Instead I should be extolling the nuances of Jacques Mauger’s phrasing in Casterede (although not too much, right?)?
Why the implied, if not express, better than you exclusionary attitude?
Instead I should be extolling the nuances of Jacques Mauger’s phrasing in Casterede (although not too much, right?)?
Why the implied, if not express, better than you exclusionary attitude?
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I didn't see anything exclusionary in the original post.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Bach5G"]Why dismissive of people who like horns and gadgets? I’m curious enough to want to experiment with horns, mouthpieces, handgrips, tone halos, what have you.
Instead I should be extolling the nuances of Jacques Mauger’s phrasing in Casterede (although not too much, right?)?
Why the implied, if not express, better than you exclusionary attitude?[/quote]
Wow. That certainly was not my intent! I'm sorry I gave that impression. But I don't feel that way at all, and I didn't intend that whatsoever.
Instead I should be extolling the nuances of Jacques Mauger’s phrasing in Casterede (although not too much, right?)?
Why the implied, if not express, better than you exclusionary attitude?[/quote]
Wow. That certainly was not my intent! I'm sorry I gave that impression. But I don't feel that way at all, and I didn't intend that whatsoever.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="236250" time="1709574461" user_id="2999">
Why dismissive of people who like horns and gadgets? I’m curious enough to want to experiment with horns, mouthpieces, handgrips, tone halos, what have you.
Instead I should be extolling the nuances of Jacques Mauger’s phrasing in Casterede (although not too much, right?)?
Why the implied, if not express, better than you exclusionary attitude?[/quote]
Wow. That certainly was not my intent! I'm sorry I gave that impression. But I don't feel that way at all, and I didn't intend that whatsoever.
</QUOTE>
My apologies. My bad.
Why dismissive of people who like horns and gadgets? I’m curious enough to want to experiment with horns, mouthpieces, handgrips, tone halos, what have you.
Instead I should be extolling the nuances of Jacques Mauger’s phrasing in Casterede (although not too much, right?)?
Why the implied, if not express, better than you exclusionary attitude?[/quote]
Wow. That certainly was not my intent! I'm sorry I gave that impression. But I don't feel that way at all, and I didn't intend that whatsoever.
</QUOTE>
My apologies. My bad.
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
My 2 cents worth as a nonprofessional player
Equipment wise I’m pickled tink with all my low brass hardware, and even my trumpet…now my trumpet mouthpiece falls in the “It’s ok, but there’s gotta be something better” category. After some trials, always go back to the one I’ve been using because I’ve found none better.
Music wise, being mostly self taught, I’m always open to ideas of the “How to be your best.” Since I’m not actually using scored music a majority of the time, I have total freedom of choosing how I want to sound and with what instrument. Not in a sense of “It’s gotta be my way”, but how I interpret what I can add to the mix. Our band is not that large compared to the Big Name Contemporary Christian bands, and we don’t try to sound like them, but listen to how several different groups may do a song and then we put our twist on them. A few, but not many groups utilize any brass, a cello is more common than brass in most. Euph can be utilized nicely for some of the cello parts. (Back in the 90s there was a period of orchestration, with some woodwinds, a nice group of trumpets, trombones, and French horns. All that with multiple,keyboards, many guitars, and great bass players and drummers.) My goal is to have a good sound and usually just add some subtleties to the mix. The exception is some songs are high energy and need a trumpet to really drive some parts, while other songs the trombone works perfectly to add some brilliance. French horn makes it mellow, or a few highs to drive a chord home as needed, and euph also makes it mellow, or has even filled in when there was no bass player available. That’s rare now, my trumpet playing grandson now is a regular bass player.
Have done some brass ensemble work, depending on who’s available our drummer/bass guitar and tuba playing/band director and I can take any horn that is needed to fill all the parts. We’ve both covered 1st trumpet down to tuba at various times. While I enjoy an occasional ensemble, I’m most at home using a chord chart and filling in the blanks as needed.
Bottom line, I focus on my playing as well as I can, keeping my chops in shape, and having enough musical knowledge so that what and when I play makes a good addition to any song.
Equipment wise I’m pickled tink with all my low brass hardware, and even my trumpet…now my trumpet mouthpiece falls in the “It’s ok, but there’s gotta be something better” category. After some trials, always go back to the one I’ve been using because I’ve found none better.
Music wise, being mostly self taught, I’m always open to ideas of the “How to be your best.” Since I’m not actually using scored music a majority of the time, I have total freedom of choosing how I want to sound and with what instrument. Not in a sense of “It’s gotta be my way”, but how I interpret what I can add to the mix. Our band is not that large compared to the Big Name Contemporary Christian bands, and we don’t try to sound like them, but listen to how several different groups may do a song and then we put our twist on them. A few, but not many groups utilize any brass, a cello is more common than brass in most. Euph can be utilized nicely for some of the cello parts. (Back in the 90s there was a period of orchestration, with some woodwinds, a nice group of trumpets, trombones, and French horns. All that with multiple,keyboards, many guitars, and great bass players and drummers.) My goal is to have a good sound and usually just add some subtleties to the mix. The exception is some songs are high energy and need a trumpet to really drive some parts, while other songs the trombone works perfectly to add some brilliance. French horn makes it mellow, or a few highs to drive a chord home as needed, and euph also makes it mellow, or has even filled in when there was no bass player available. That’s rare now, my trumpet playing grandson now is a regular bass player.
Have done some brass ensemble work, depending on who’s available our drummer/bass guitar and tuba playing/band director and I can take any horn that is needed to fill all the parts. We’ve both covered 1st trumpet down to tuba at various times. While I enjoy an occasional ensemble, I’m most at home using a chord chart and filling in the blanks as needed.
Bottom line, I focus on my playing as well as I can, keeping my chops in shape, and having enough musical knowledge so that what and when I play makes a good addition to any song.
- DCIsky
- Posts: 338
- Joined: May 09, 2020
This forum has hundreds of expert performers, educators, hornbuilders and repair technicians who freely and enthusiastically share their knowledge and experiences with trombones, mouthpieces, cases, etc. Although imperfect (as most online forums are), TromboneChat is a great resource for equipment information that is scarcely taught in schools or found in easily-accessible printed materials. And frankly, I simply have a lot of fun reading about horns and window-shopping the classifieds.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="BrassSection"]My 2 cents worth as a nonprofessional player
Equipment wise I’m pickled tink with all my low brass hardware, and even my trumpet…now my trumpet mouthpiece falls in the “It’s ok, but there’s gotta be something better” category. After some trials, always go back to the one I’ve been using because I’ve found none better.
Music wise, being mostly self taught, I’m always open to ideas of the “How to be your best.” Since I’m not actually using scored music a majority of the time, I have total freedom of choosing how I want to sound and with what instrument. Not in a sense of “It’s gotta be my way”, but how I interpret what I can add to the mix. Our band is not that large compared to the Big Name Contemporary Christian bands, and we don’t try to sound like them, but listen to how several different groups may do a song and then we put our twist on them. A few, but not many groups utilize any brass, a cello is more common than brass in most. Euph can be utilized nicely for some of the cello parts. (Back in the 90s there was a period of orchestration, with some woodwinds, a nice group of trumpets, trombones, and French horns. All that with multiple,keyboards, many guitars, and great bass players and drummers.) My goal is to have a good sound and usually just add some subtleties to the mix. The exception is some songs are high energy and need a trumpet to really drive some parts, while other songs the trombone works perfectly to add some brilliance. French horn makes it mellow, or a few highs to drive a chord home as needed, and euph also makes it mellow, or has even filled in when there was no bass player available. That’s rare now, my trumpet playing grandson now is a regular bass player.
Have done some brass ensemble work, depending on who’s available our drummer/bass guitar and tuba playing/band director and I can take any horn that is needed to fill all the parts. We’ve both covered 1st trumpet down to tuba at various times. While I enjoy an occasional ensemble, I’m most at home using a chord chart and filling in the blanks as needed.
Bottom line, I focus on my playing as well as I can, keeping my chops in shape, and having enough musical knowledge so that what and when I play makes a good addition to any song.[/quote]
You're making me really want to hear what you do. Put something on YouTube and post it here.
Equipment wise I’m pickled tink with all my low brass hardware, and even my trumpet…now my trumpet mouthpiece falls in the “It’s ok, but there’s gotta be something better” category. After some trials, always go back to the one I’ve been using because I’ve found none better.
Music wise, being mostly self taught, I’m always open to ideas of the “How to be your best.” Since I’m not actually using scored music a majority of the time, I have total freedom of choosing how I want to sound and with what instrument. Not in a sense of “It’s gotta be my way”, but how I interpret what I can add to the mix. Our band is not that large compared to the Big Name Contemporary Christian bands, and we don’t try to sound like them, but listen to how several different groups may do a song and then we put our twist on them. A few, but not many groups utilize any brass, a cello is more common than brass in most. Euph can be utilized nicely for some of the cello parts. (Back in the 90s there was a period of orchestration, with some woodwinds, a nice group of trumpets, trombones, and French horns. All that with multiple,keyboards, many guitars, and great bass players and drummers.) My goal is to have a good sound and usually just add some subtleties to the mix. The exception is some songs are high energy and need a trumpet to really drive some parts, while other songs the trombone works perfectly to add some brilliance. French horn makes it mellow, or a few highs to drive a chord home as needed, and euph also makes it mellow, or has even filled in when there was no bass player available. That’s rare now, my trumpet playing grandson now is a regular bass player.
Have done some brass ensemble work, depending on who’s available our drummer/bass guitar and tuba playing/band director and I can take any horn that is needed to fill all the parts. We’ve both covered 1st trumpet down to tuba at various times. While I enjoy an occasional ensemble, I’m most at home using a chord chart and filling in the blanks as needed.
Bottom line, I focus on my playing as well as I can, keeping my chops in shape, and having enough musical knowledge so that what and when I play makes a good addition to any song.[/quote]
You're making me really want to hear what you do. Put something on YouTube and post it here.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
sabutin told me he found much more playing discussion and how-to-play discussion on Facebook, whereas this forum was mostly gear, and discord, so not so valuable for him. The importance of all that is over now, I guess. RIP.
I love the studio and jazz work people did in the 50s and 60s, so equipment common among those heroes is what I use. I spend all my time working on "how can I play that" and I cannot think of a time I have thought the problem was the horn. Usually, playing that means finding how to get around the inhibition between the thing that could be written down, and beautifully producing it or something inspired by it on the fly in the heat of battle.
I'll be right there for topics like that.
I love the studio and jazz work people did in the 50s and 60s, so equipment common among those heroes is what I use. I spend all my time working on "how can I play that" and I cannot think of a time I have thought the problem was the horn. Usually, playing that means finding how to get around the inhibition between the thing that could be written down, and beautifully producing it or something inspired by it on the fly in the heat of battle.
I'll be right there for topics like that.
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
“You're making me really want to hear what you do. Put something on YouTube and post it here”
You're asking the wrong person to do that, I’m an analog kinda guy in a digital world! I’d rather work on my 55 Ford tractor or rebuild an old Quadrajet carb than work on my 2013 F150! Services are available online, but about the only thing that comes thru the live stream is lead electric guitar and lead vocal. If you’re ever traveling through central PA, bring your trombone and join me some Sunday! Be nice to have a pro trombone player instead of the trumpet player that plays with us occasionally! (Nothing against him, he’s always welcome, but additional low brass would also be nice!)
You're asking the wrong person to do that, I’m an analog kinda guy in a digital world! I’d rather work on my 55 Ford tractor or rebuild an old Quadrajet carb than work on my 2013 F150! Services are available online, but about the only thing that comes thru the live stream is lead electric guitar and lead vocal. If you’re ever traveling through central PA, bring your trombone and join me some Sunday! Be nice to have a pro trombone player instead of the trumpet player that plays with us occasionally! (Nothing against him, he’s always welcome, but additional low brass would also be nice!)
- alonetrombone
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Sep 24, 2023
Some people (i won't say who) also seem to think it is about things like beans and soup
- Ozzlefinch
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Jan 15, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]
... But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
Your entire contribution to the Trombone chat X-mas project discussion was a single post that said, "good job guys".
Be the change you want to see.
... But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
Your entire contribution to the Trombone chat X-mas project discussion was a single post that said, "good job guys".
Be the change you want to see.
- SteveM
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Dec 21, 2021
[quote="Ozzlefinch"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="236091" time="1709498208" user_id="16498">
... But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
Your entire contribution to the Trombone chat X-mas project discussion was a single post that said, "good job guys".
Be the change you want to see.
</QUOTE>
Not sure what you're getting at - she is exemplifying that change. Dana frequently initiates posts on trombone-related musical topics. It's not really fair, and actually kind of ridiculous, to arbitrarily single out one thread in order to point out that she only contributed a single post to it.
... But really, if you're a musician rather than an audiophile-equivalent or a collector, shouldn't the vast percentage of all our focus and discussion be about the music and how we go about using the tool we've chosen?
Doesn't anyone else feel the way I do? ("No, Dana, it's just you....") Aw, not again! It figures. Dana is out of step once again. :)[/quote]
Your entire contribution to the Trombone chat X-mas project discussion was a single post that said, "good job guys".
Be the change you want to see.
</QUOTE>
Not sure what you're getting at - she is exemplifying that change. Dana frequently initiates posts on trombone-related musical topics. It's not really fair, and actually kind of ridiculous, to arbitrarily single out one thread in order to point out that she only contributed a single post to it.
- Ozzlefinch
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Jan 15, 2022
It was a perfect opportunity to engage in a good discussion about the creation of the project and it was completely missed, yet she feels the need to call out the entire forum for not being focused on music?
And if she is contributing, then what is the nature of the complaint? The algorithm doesn't match expectations? People like to talk about equipment - so what? Seriously, what is the harm in that?
And is writing music a natural progression from playing music? Does not writing mean that a trombone player is failing to achieve some standards? Says who?
And if she is contributing, then what is the nature of the complaint? The algorithm doesn't match expectations? People like to talk about equipment - so what? Seriously, what is the harm in that?
And is writing music a natural progression from playing music? Does not writing mean that a trombone player is failing to achieve some standards? Says who?
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
Every forums I have seen are. Trombonechat, Tubenet, dwerden, trumpetherald, saxontheweb, etc.
- mgladdish
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Oct 10, 2021
I had what I thought was an extremely interesting chat about interpretation and musical genres on the [url=https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=232718#p232718]Peter Steiner thread shut down as it wasn't "on topic" for discussing Peter's playing. So sometimes it's not just about the threads started/not started, it can be discussions that are encouraged/discouraged too.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The thread devolved into a discussion of his equipment.
There was also a lot of discussion of different instruments and interpretation, although I personally would not shut down a thread for that unless we had really strayed from the original topic.
There was also a lot of discussion of different instruments and interpretation, although I personally would not shut down a thread for that unless we had really strayed from the original topic.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
People and arguably men have been falling in love or worshipping their tools for a long time. Another facet of of the obsession is a contingent that try to play every genre on a large bore instrument. Since one size fits none, a search for the Holy Grail is born: Good luck, Indiana. There are probably quite a few people on this forum that are properly trained and understand form and analysis, and interpretation, well enough to discuss it. It often requires an audio link and risk of ridicule for the reward of a “meh” response, as Harrison observed, or getting slapped round by an Internet Troll (IT). The first thing Bela Rosza said in many of his composition classes was that he didn’t care whether anyone “enjoyed “ a piece or not. He wanted students to understand the music and how it worked.
TLDR bottom line: You’re right. The site is obsessed with equipment. And you’re also wrong. You’re not out of step. You’re exactly where you’re supposed to be. Bela Rosza’s favorite joke was, “Why are we here. Because we’re not there.”
TLDR bottom line: You’re right. The site is obsessed with equipment. And you’re also wrong. You’re not out of step. You’re exactly where you’re supposed to be. Bela Rosza’s favorite joke was, “Why are we here. Because we’re not there.”
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Ozzlefinch"]Your entire contribution to the Trombone chat X-mas project discussion was a single post that said, "good job guys".
Be the change you want to see.[/quote]
First time I've ever been chastised for complimenting someone. :D
I felt such a discussion was utterly unnecessary and would have distracted and detracted from the wonderful music performance folks here put together. My comment/compliment went to the music, and I felt no need to distract from it by trying to start a pointless discussion about "the creation of the project." Indeed, I'm still pretty new here, and I have no idea about the creating of the Christmas recording project. This is the first time I've seen it, but I enjoyed it immensely. So a second "Bravo!" to all who gave their time, energy and talent to give us a wonderful Christmas music performance!
So, why didn't YOU start that discussion if you thought it was so important that you had to call me out about it months later and denigrate me for offering a compliment to those who performed? I'm afraid I'm not seeing the legitimacy in this criticism of me.
By the way, I didn't call out anyone by starting this thread, and I wasn't complaining about anything. I simply made an observation, thought it was interesting, and decided to start a discussion about it. Plus, not being, as OneTon put it, one of the "men [who] have been falling in love or worshipping their tools," I didn't quite understand the reason for the predominance of equipment posts over what I use my tools for, making music. I think this has been an interesting thread, and I have learned quite a bit. I'm glad I started the discussion. It's unfortunate that you took offense, and a little bizarre that you called me out for complimenting people's music performance.
But it's all good. I appreciate your contribution and will try to find the good advice in it that I'm sure you intended.
Be the change you want to see.[/quote]
First time I've ever been chastised for complimenting someone. :D
It was a perfect opportunity to engage in a good discussion about the creation of the project and it was completely missed, yet she feels the need to call out the entire forum for not being focused on music?
And if she is contributing, then what is the nature of the complaint? The algorithm doesn't match expectations? People like to talk about equipment - so what? Seriously, what is the harm in that?
And is writing music a natural progression from playing music? Does not writing mean that a trombone player is failing to achieve some standards? Says who?
I felt such a discussion was utterly unnecessary and would have distracted and detracted from the wonderful music performance folks here put together. My comment/compliment went to the music, and I felt no need to distract from it by trying to start a pointless discussion about "the creation of the project." Indeed, I'm still pretty new here, and I have no idea about the creating of the Christmas recording project. This is the first time I've seen it, but I enjoyed it immensely. So a second "Bravo!" to all who gave their time, energy and talent to give us a wonderful Christmas music performance!
So, why didn't YOU start that discussion if you thought it was so important that you had to call me out about it months later and denigrate me for offering a compliment to those who performed? I'm afraid I'm not seeing the legitimacy in this criticism of me.
By the way, I didn't call out anyone by starting this thread, and I wasn't complaining about anything. I simply made an observation, thought it was interesting, and decided to start a discussion about it. Plus, not being, as OneTon put it, one of the "men [who] have been falling in love or worshipping their tools," I didn't quite understand the reason for the predominance of equipment posts over what I use my tools for, making music. I think this has been an interesting thread, and I have learned quite a bit. I'm glad I started the discussion. It's unfortunate that you took offense, and a little bizarre that you called me out for complimenting people's music performance.
But it's all good. I appreciate your contribution and will try to find the good advice in it that I'm sure you intended.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Ozzlefinch"]The algorithm doesn't match expectations?[/quote]
:? :roll: :idk:
:? :roll: :idk:
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Hardware comments usually involve naming a component and possibly some measurements and/or other quality. Equipment comments can be quick and effortless.
For example: “Those models had yellow brass outer tubes and the inside diameter of the tubes was .597 inch.
Discussion about music interpretation involves lengthy posts that must be composed with great care and sensitivity. I find that discussion about the art of making music is much more time-consuming.
Why are there more posts about equipment than music performance? A post about equipment only takes a fraction of the time. My posts about equipment are usually done in 3 minutes or less. My posts about interpretation usually take 20 minutes or more.
For example: “Those models had yellow brass outer tubes and the inside diameter of the tubes was .597 inch.
Discussion about music interpretation involves lengthy posts that must be composed with great care and sensitivity. I find that discussion about the art of making music is much more time-consuming.
Why are there more posts about equipment than music performance? A post about equipment only takes a fraction of the time. My posts about equipment are usually done in 3 minutes or less. My posts about interpretation usually take 20 minutes or more.
- slideandtraps
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Dec 14, 2023
In Jeep forums, been there, where pre and post purchase gear talk is high, perhaps these "non-gear" topics:
"Where are you playing your trombone today? (pics)"
and
"Should trombonists wave to each other in passing?"
"Where are you playing your trombone today? (pics)"
and
"Should trombonists wave to each other in passing?"
- RustBeltBass
- Posts: 382
- Joined: Jul 17, 2018
I did not follow the Steiner conversation fully. I generally agree with the statement that thia forum is too equipment based, and I am guilty of that as well.
I am not sure what the exact reason for that is but I do suspect it to have to do with the fact that equipment can be bought, traded, imrpoved, damaged etc. while nusical performance remains somewhat a personal taste as well as requiring maybe more individual skill to comment on in a qualified way.
I thought it was interesting when Toby Oft brought it up in a somewhat recent video saying that it is great that trombonists talk about equipment but its not good if its the thing they talk about the most. (Paraphrase).
I am not sure what the exact reason for that is but I do suspect it to have to do with the fact that equipment can be bought, traded, imrpoved, damaged etc. while nusical performance remains somewhat a personal taste as well as requiring maybe more individual skill to comment on in a qualified way.
I thought it was interesting when Toby Oft brought it up in a somewhat recent video saying that it is great that trombonists talk about equipment but its not good if its the thing they talk about the most. (Paraphrase).
- CheeseTray
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Apr 21, 2018
I also think that the amount of equipment discussion relates directly to the fact that there are a lot of people on this forum who enjoy the trombone as a hobby. One of the most fun aspects of any hobby is trying, and playing around with, all the toys associated with it (think of golfers endlessly buying the new, "latest, greatest-ever" driver). Crazy4's remark about it being easier to talk equipment about carries weight too. I enjoy experimenting with equipment quite a bit, but, playing for a living, I value most what I trust to work as consistently and effortlessly as possible when the "red light" is one - even when I'm trying something new on the side. I'm always careful about messing with what works, which in some respects is the opposite of a hobbyist approach; which often is enjoying the pleasure of discovering new things while regularly re-energizing your interest as you improve. My equipment experiments are more conservative, in that I'm trying to improve and refine within my comfort zone, since I perceive a failed equipment experiment as a risk with real (possibly negative) job consequences vs. an enlightening and fun experiment.
-Just my personal perspective; other user experiences may differ substantially.
-Just my personal perspective; other user experiences may differ substantially.
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
[quote="slideandtraps"]
"Should trombonists wave to each other in passing?"[/quote]
Only if they use all the fingers.
"Should trombonists wave to each other in passing?"[/quote]
Only if they use all the fingers.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="RustBeltBass"]
I thought it was interesting when Toby Oft brought it up in a somewhat recent video saying that it is great that trombonists talk about equipment but its not good if its the thing they talk about the most. (Paraphrase).[/quote]
Toby is one of my all time favorite trombonists. He is an incredible musician, teacher, and his output is phenomenal.
He also has a custom trombone to his specifications with his name on it and an entire line of custom mouthpieces so he must (relative to the forum here) REALLY talk about a lot of music for that to be fair.
Who am I kidding, of course he does. But you see my point.
I thought it was interesting when Toby Oft brought it up in a somewhat recent video saying that it is great that trombonists talk about equipment but its not good if its the thing they talk about the most. (Paraphrase).[/quote]
Toby is one of my all time favorite trombonists. He is an incredible musician, teacher, and his output is phenomenal.
He also has a custom trombone to his specifications with his name on it and an entire line of custom mouthpieces so he must (relative to the forum here) REALLY talk about a lot of music for that to be fair.
Who am I kidding, of course he does. But you see my point.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I totally relate to this post. It struck a chord in me for sure.
[quote="CheeseTray"]I also think that the amount of equipment discussion relates directly to the fact that there are a lot of people on this forum who enjoy the trombone as a hobby. One of the most fun aspects of any hobby is trying, and playing around with, all the toys associated with it (think of golfers endlessly buying the new, "latest, greatest-ever" driver). Crazy4's remark about it being easier to talk equipment about carries weight too. I enjoy experimenting with equipment quite a bit, but, playing for a living, I value most what I trust to work as consistently and effortlessly as possible when the "red light" is one - even when I'm trying something new on the side. I'm always careful about messing with what works, which in some respects is the opposite of a hobbyist approach; which often is enjoying the pleasure of discovering new things while regularly re-energizing your interest as you improve. My equipment experiments are more conservative, in that I'm trying to improve and refine within my comfort zone, since I perceive a failed equipment experiment as a risk with real (possibly negative) job consequences vs. an enlightening and fun experiment.
-Just my personal perspective; other user experiences may differ substantially.[/quote]
[quote="CheeseTray"]I also think that the amount of equipment discussion relates directly to the fact that there are a lot of people on this forum who enjoy the trombone as a hobby. One of the most fun aspects of any hobby is trying, and playing around with, all the toys associated with it (think of golfers endlessly buying the new, "latest, greatest-ever" driver). Crazy4's remark about it being easier to talk equipment about carries weight too. I enjoy experimenting with equipment quite a bit, but, playing for a living, I value most what I trust to work as consistently and effortlessly as possible when the "red light" is one - even when I'm trying something new on the side. I'm always careful about messing with what works, which in some respects is the opposite of a hobbyist approach; which often is enjoying the pleasure of discovering new things while regularly re-energizing your interest as you improve. My equipment experiments are more conservative, in that I'm trying to improve and refine within my comfort zone, since I perceive a failed equipment experiment as a risk with real (possibly negative) job consequences vs. an enlightening and fun experiment.
-Just my personal perspective; other user experiences may differ substantially.[/quote]
- alonetrombone
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Sep 24, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]Toby is one of my all time favorite trombonists. He is an incredible musician, teacher, and his output is phenomenal.
He also has a custom trombone to his specifications with his name on it and an entire line of custom mouthpieces so he must (relative to the forum here) REALLY talk about a lot of music for that to be fair.
Who am I kidding, of course he does. But you see my point.[/quote]
Same, I am a huge Toby Head!! Great point.
He also has a custom trombone to his specifications with his name on it and an entire line of custom mouthpieces so he must (relative to the forum here) REALLY talk about a lot of music for that to be fair.
Who am I kidding, of course he does. But you see my point.[/quote]
Same, I am a huge Toby Head!! Great point.