The Diaphragm in Brass Playing by Dr. Larry Miller, M.D.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
This is really neat!
I knew the whole "diaphragm" stuff in brass pedagogy was pretty much all wrong, but this lecture has a lot of detail I didn't know.
:good:
I knew the whole "diaphragm" stuff in brass pedagogy was pretty much all wrong, but this lecture has a lot of detail I didn't know.
:good:
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="musicofnote"]No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.[/quote]
Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.
Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.
- KingThings
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Feb 13, 2024
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="musicofnote" post_id="236112" time="1709503563" user_id="15257">
No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.[/quote]
Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.
</QUOTE>
I'll take a try at answering that.....with respect. am a trombone player, but also a classical tenor vocalist. I have studied breathing with more people than I would care to mention and have spent years studying breath and its relation to sound, and the mechanics involved. I continue to learn, but my understanding is that the diaphragm's work is done once you take in a breath, and holding the breath is mainly the work of the intercostal muscles (assuming the vocal folds are open versus blocking the air flow.).
No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.[/quote]
Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.
</QUOTE>
I'll take a try at answering that.....with respect. am a trombone player, but also a classical tenor vocalist. I have studied breathing with more people than I would care to mention and have spent years studying breath and its relation to sound, and the mechanics involved. I continue to learn, but my understanding is that the diaphragm's work is done once you take in a breath, and holding the breath is mainly the work of the intercostal muscles (assuming the vocal folds are open versus blocking the air flow.).
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I think the point is that any conscious control of breathing is accomlished by other groups of muscles applying force in one direction or another. The diaphragm itself is reserved for keeping you alive.
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
<LINK_TEXT text="https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/b ... -diaphragm">https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/21578-diaphragm</LINK_TEXT>
Its´s funny and strange, all the myths about the diaphragm.
Its´s funny and strange, all the myths about the diaphragm.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- boneagain
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Wittgenstein ladder strikes again.
"Breath with your diaphragm" is a teaching simplification.
Doesn't matter that it is wrong and misleading and causes the kind of disconnect in this thread.
It is SO much simpler to make that four word exhortation than to explain the piston effect of the abdominal muscles against the viscera interacting with the intercostal muscles... the exact situation where a Wittgenstein ladder comes into play.
For me these four words go into the same bin as "blow it to the back of the room."
I wish we could come up with some simplifications that could be BUILT UPON, rather than needing to be overturned before the next level of progress can start. Not likely, though...
"Breath with your diaphragm" is a teaching simplification.
Doesn't matter that it is wrong and misleading and causes the kind of disconnect in this thread.
It is SO much simpler to make that four word exhortation than to explain the piston effect of the abdominal muscles against the viscera interacting with the intercostal muscles... the exact situation where a Wittgenstein ladder comes into play.
For me these four words go into the same bin as "blow it to the back of the room."
I wish we could come up with some simplifications that could be BUILT UPON, rather than needing to be overturned before the next level of progress can start. Not likely, though...
- vetsurginc
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Jun 29, 2019
"Can you live without it? I've never had that question asked, "
having dealt with animals with traumatic diaphragmatic hernias (rupture) where repair wasn't feasible, the important thing was to make sure the hole was large enough that organs would not become trapped. Limited numbers. But the dogs did fine after surgery.
having dealt with animals with traumatic diaphragmatic hernias (rupture) where repair wasn't feasible, the important thing was to make sure the hole was large enough that organs would not become trapped. Limited numbers. But the dogs did fine after surgery.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- trombonedemon
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Aug 06, 2018
Darn good video, always wondered <EMOJI seq="1f914" tseq="1f914">🤔</EMOJI> why abs start to swell with blood after practicing for a few hours. So you can't access and or control the diaphragm, even if you wanted to. It acts like plenum between to cavities. Soooo the muscles you want to train are on top of the rib cage?!
- trombonedemon
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Aug 06, 2018
[quote="Olofson"]<LINK_TEXT text="https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/b ... -diaphragm">https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/21578-diaphragm</LINK_TEXT>
Its´s funny and strange, all the myths about the diaphragm.[/quote]
Much less the few people that actually know where it's and looks like!<EMOJI seq="1f9d0" tseq="1f9d0">🧐</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f633" tseq="1f633">😳</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f914" tseq="1f914">🤔</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI>
Its´s funny and strange, all the myths about the diaphragm.[/quote]
Much less the few people that actually know where it's and looks like!<EMOJI seq="1f9d0" tseq="1f9d0">🧐</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f633" tseq="1f633">😳</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f914" tseq="1f914">🤔</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI>
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The misconception is the fact that it's commonly referred to as a muscle when it's really just a membrane.
The actual "diaphragm" muscle is the abs, combined with everything around the rib cage.
In practical terms it's all just how you breathe... everybody knows how to breathe, you do it 24 hours a day. Brass playing isn't really that much different until you get into the high range on trumpet.
The same goes for the Valsalva Maneuver which is blamed for brass playing problems... but you do it whenever you cough, lift something, go to the bathroom, and probably when you get up out of bed every morning.
The actual "diaphragm" muscle is the abs, combined with everything around the rib cage.
In practical terms it's all just how you breathe... everybody knows how to breathe, you do it 24 hours a day. Brass playing isn't really that much different until you get into the high range on trumpet.
The same goes for the Valsalva Maneuver which is blamed for brass playing problems... but you do it whenever you cough, lift something, go to the bathroom, and probably when you get up out of bed every morning.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="musicofnote" post_id="236112" time="1709503563" user_id="15257">
No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.[/quote]
Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.
</QUOTE>
During diaphragmatic breathing, you consciously use your diaphragm to take deep breaths.
You can´t control the diaphragm the same way as your arm or leg muscles, because the diphragm has no feling.
You can decide to flex your arm muscle, but you can't feel the diaphragm, you can decide to take a deep breath.
No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.[/quote]
Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.
</QUOTE>
During diaphragmatic breathing, you consciously use your diaphragm to take deep breaths.
You can´t control the diaphragm the same way as your arm or leg muscles, because the diphragm has no feling.
You can decide to flex your arm muscle, but you can't feel the diaphragm, you can decide to take a deep breath.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Thanks for sharing. That video made a lot of sense - except I'm not so sure about the wedge breathing part.
I always believed the diaphragm was a muscle, and I'm surprised it's not. That puts a different slant on how we breathe. When we lived overseas I went to the original Bodyworld and saw an actual body, preserved (plasticized) and exploded like a parts diagram. The internal organs were different from my imagination, despite anatomy classes. There is an exhibit touring the US but at least when in Richmond it was a pale shadow.
I always believed the diaphragm was a muscle, and I'm surprised it's not. That puts a different slant on how we breathe. When we lived overseas I went to the original Bodyworld and saw an actual body, preserved (plasticized) and exploded like a parts diagram. The internal organs were different from my imagination, despite anatomy classes. There is an exhibit touring the US but at least when in Richmond it was a pale shadow.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I thought we figured this out with Arnold Jacobs. I know "wind and song" can be a swear word to some, but the idea of "intercostals:" etc. being vital to breathing has been out there in the community for a long time. Maybe Jacobs used the word diaphragm too (I don't have any of his written material handy) but he certainly knew and taught how breathing works.
This is one of those things, I think, where knowing all the details could be interesting, but not terribly necessary to improving the skill.
I don't know the name of every muscle I use when I squat, but I know how a squat should look.
I don't know all the muscles involved in breathing, but I know what a full breath feels and looks like.
This is one of those things, I think, where knowing all the details could be interesting, but not terribly necessary to improving the skill.
I don't know the name of every muscle I use when I squat, but I know how a squat should look.
I don't know all the muscles involved in breathing, but I know what a full breath feels and looks like.