What trombone is this? Really strange.
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
For the latest installment of this game show, name that horn! There's a number stamped on the hand slide (4 or 5 digits), but not another mark.
In general:
In general:
- Small shank
- Large bell with enormous throat
- Narrow slide, with tuning in it
- Friction fit bell/slide mating. No slide lock.
- Flat wrap
- Trigger mechanism is a hinged gizmo on the bell brace (disconnected in photo)
- Age unknown, but definitely old. Predates all Chinese stuff by 50+ years.
What the hell?
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4973.jpg" index="0">IMG_4973.jpg</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4972.jpg" index="1">IMG_4972.jpg</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4971.jpg" index="2">IMG_4971.jpg</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4970.jpg" index="3">IMG_4970.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
I think you're probably in the right area with the Olds assessment. The tuning mechanism matches this online picture of "Olds Wilbur DeParis", but that is a straight Bb horn.
<ATTACHMENT filename="OldsDeParisSlide.jpeg" index="0">[attachment=0]OldsDeParisSlide.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="OldsDeParisSlide.jpeg" index="0">
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yeah, that's an Olds, although I have to say I've never seen an F trigger rigged quite that way. Is there any engraving?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Definitely looks like an Olds.
To me, it looks like something transitional between this horn:
http://itsabear.com/horns/1920_bass/c.1920_bass.html
and these two:
http://itsabear.com/horns/Std-SYM/Std-SYM.html
The valve has an Olds look to it,̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶e̶r̶t̶e̶d̶. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.
What's the story? Any chance I could get my grubby paws on it?
EDIT: Struck through comment about the valve being inverted; I was looking at it wrong.
To me, it looks like something transitional between this horn:
http://itsabear.com/horns/1920_bass/c.1920_bass.html
and these two:
http://itsabear.com/horns/Std-SYM/Std-SYM.html
The valve has an Olds look to it,̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶e̶r̶t̶e̶d̶. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.
What's the story? Any chance I could get my grubby paws on it?
EDIT: Struck through comment about the valve being inverted; I was looking at it wrong.
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
Zero engraving. I'm back at the same place for a show tonight, so I can try for a picture of the one number on it.
@JohnL - If you're anywhere near San Francisco, I'd be happy to retrieve it and lend it to you.
Best guess is that it belonged to Rogers Shoemaker, local trombone star from the 1930's to 1970's.
@JohnL - If you're anywhere near San Francisco, I'd be happy to retrieve it and lend it to you.
Best guess is that it belonged to Rogers Shoemaker, local trombone star from the 1930's to 1970's.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Leanit"]@JohnL - If you're anywhere near San Francisco, I'd be happy to retrieve it and lend it to you.[/quote]
I can be. I'm in SoCal, but I've been know to travel when something really interesting pops up.
Are you in The CIty or somewhere else in the region?
EDIT: Thanks for posting this. Interesting Olds stuff doesn't pop up very often.
I can be. I'm in SoCal, but I've been know to travel when something really interesting pops up.
Are you in The CIty or somewhere else in the region?
EDIT: Thanks for posting this. Interesting Olds stuff doesn't pop up very often.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
This one would be a great addition to JohnL's It's A Bear collection!
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
We can probably work something out. I'll see if I can bring it home tonight. Stay tuned.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="JohnL"]The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.[/quote]
Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?
Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="236634" time="1709834173" user_id="119">
The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.[/quote]
Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?
</QUOTE>
On further examination, I don't think the valve is actually inverted. I'm just looking at it wrong.
But...
Your suggestion about it being reworked for a left-handed player? A definite possibility.
The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.[/quote]
Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?
</QUOTE>
On further examination, I don't think the valve is actually inverted. I'm just looking at it wrong.
But...
Your suggestion about it being reworked for a left-handed player? A definite possibility.
- Digidog
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="236634" time="1709834173" user_id="119">
The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.[/quote]
Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?
</QUOTE>
Judging from the pictures, this is what I believe is the case here. To place the valve lever on the other side of the valve, could necessitate an extra brace like what's seen in the picture.
The valve has an Olds look to it, though it's inverted. I'd theorize that the linkage is a kludge that was implemented later by someone who didn't like the original design.[/quote]
Inverted valve and reworked lever... could this have been converted for a lefty?
</QUOTE>
Judging from the pictures, this is what I believe is the case here. To place the valve lever on the other side of the valve, could necessitate an extra brace like what's seen in the picture.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I'd assume it was just to get a better thumb position to play normally. Those bell braces and levers are NOT made to be played by humans on those early horns.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Isn’t there an S bend that would make the position worse for a left hand player?
Cheers,
Andy
Cheers,
Andy
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="elmsandr"]Isn’t there an S bend that would make the position worse for a left hand player?[/quote]
At this point, I'm inclined to reserve judgement until I see some better pictures. I can't really tell exactly what's going on here.
[quote="Burgerbob"]Those bell braces and levers are NOT made to be played by humans on those early horns.[/quote]
I've always wondered if the intent was to normally wrap one's thumb around the brace [i[under[/i] the lever and only reach for the valve (and it is a bit of a reach) when needed.
At this point, I'm inclined to reserve judgement until I see some better pictures. I can't really tell exactly what's going on here.
[quote="Burgerbob"]Those bell braces and levers are NOT made to be played by humans on those early horns.[/quote]
I've always wondered if the intent was to normally wrap one's thumb around the brace [i[under[/i] the lever and only reach for the valve (and it is a bit of a reach) when needed.
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
With better lighting and the hints from the guys on this thread, I think it's been nailed down.
Near the bell joint the slide clearly says SYM 5356. Bell serial number is 5095. So this appears to be a "Symphony" model Olds, and if the serial number research is correct, it dates to 1924. I can't find any pics of this model, and it doesn't say Olds or any branding on it. Just these SYM and s/n stamps. Indeed it does have the S bend Andy described and doesn't seem modded for a lefty in any way. Rotor body is stamped 95.
9" bell
Dual bore slide is .508/.533 by my measuring
Small mouthpiece shank
Stampings.
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4978.jpg" index="3">[attachment=3]IMG_4978.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4979.jpg" index="2">[attachment=2]IMG_4979.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
Offset for the thick-necked:
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4980.jpg" index="1">[attachment=1]IMG_4980.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
The trigger mechanism: Long, hinged bracket hangs from the top of the bell brace. When actuated by pressing forward, it pulls a string through a guide tube that loops over the top of the rotor and rotates it forward via an attachment point. The string is broken. I'm not sure what it would take to hold this design without always having the trigger pressed. I'll play around with it.
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4982.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]IMG_4982.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
Near the bell joint the slide clearly says SYM 5356. Bell serial number is 5095. So this appears to be a "Symphony" model Olds, and if the serial number research is correct, it dates to 1924. I can't find any pics of this model, and it doesn't say Olds or any branding on it. Just these SYM and s/n stamps. Indeed it does have the S bend Andy described and doesn't seem modded for a lefty in any way. Rotor body is stamped 95.
9" bell
Dual bore slide is .508/.533 by my measuring
Small mouthpiece shank
Stampings.
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4978.jpg" index="3">
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4979.jpg" index="2">
Offset for the thick-necked:
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4980.jpg" index="1">
The trigger mechanism: Long, hinged bracket hangs from the top of the bell brace. When actuated by pressing forward, it pulls a string through a guide tube that loops over the top of the rotor and rotates it forward via an attachment point. The string is broken. I'm not sure what it would take to hold this design without always having the trigger pressed. I'll play around with it.
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_4982.jpg" index="0">
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Oh, that's a string guide. That works because the spring for the valve in in the valve itself, not in the lever. This looks like it was meant for a left hand grip with your thumb sticking up, possibly for someone with a thumb or forearm problem. The S bend was making figuring that area out kind of weird, but the additional view in the photos really helps. Very cool.
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]Oh, that's a string guide. That works because the spring for the valve in in the valve itself, not in the lever. This looks like it was meant for a left hand grip with your thumb sticking up, possibly for someone with a thumb or forearm problem. The S bend was making figuring that area out kind of weird, but the additional view in the photos really helps. Very cool.[/quote]
Correct. The rotor contains a return spring to keep it on the straight Bb side. Whether that spring can withstand my iron grip remains to be tested.
Correct. The rotor contains a return spring to keep it on the straight Bb side. Whether that spring can withstand my iron grip remains to be tested.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've seen Olds trombones with that sort of S curve before. I've always figured it was intended to allow a bit more room for someone with a thick neck (Olds slides from that era are pretty narrow, even on the larger bore instruments).
Here's what the original linkage may have looked like:
<ATTACHMENT filename="dogleg.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]dogleg.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
from a horn in my collection:
http://itsabear.com/horns/SB_with_F/SB_with_F.html
You'll notice that it's a LONG reach to get to the valve lever. When I've played this horn, I tuck my thumb under the lever (there's plenty of room) unless I need the f-attachment.
I suspect that whole "hinge lever and guided string" linkage was someone's attempt to put a lever where it would be more comfortable to have the thumb over the lever all the time.
[quote="Leanit"]Whether that spring can withstand my iron grip remains to be tested.[/quote]
The spring should be fine; the valve's travel is limited, so you can't overcompress the spring without breaking the stop post first (all of that stuff is underneath that silver cover on the back of the valve). I am curious as to how well the whole thing works.
Here's what the original linkage may have looked like:
<ATTACHMENT filename="dogleg.jpg" index="0">
from a horn in my collection:
http://itsabear.com/horns/SB_with_F/SB_with_F.html
You'll notice that it's a LONG reach to get to the valve lever. When I've played this horn, I tuck my thumb under the lever (there's plenty of room) unless I need the f-attachment.
I suspect that whole "hinge lever and guided string" linkage was someone's attempt to put a lever where it would be more comfortable to have the thumb over the lever all the time.
[quote="Leanit"]Whether that spring can withstand my iron grip remains to be tested.[/quote]
The spring should be fine; the valve's travel is limited, so you can't overcompress the spring without breaking the stop post first (all of that stuff is underneath that silver cover on the back of the valve). I am curious as to how well the whole thing works.
- Leanit
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Sep 04, 2018
Update:
I found a different serial number on the bell (5096), which implies that the bell and slide weren't born together, but close to each other in 1924.
I installed a string for the rotor to test that actuator. It's not a good design. Not only is it loud when the lever hits the bell brace (could be solved with a strip of felt), the kinetics aren't good. The hinge is so far from where you impart force on the lever, and because it has just one little hinge pin, the whole thing tends to torque under your grip, making the lightweight lever twist and go a bit off line.
Cleaned up the slide a little. The instrument actually sounds and feels really, really good. Just needs a better trigger gizmo and a pro slide job. Good to go.
I found a different serial number on the bell (5096), which implies that the bell and slide weren't born together, but close to each other in 1924.
I installed a string for the rotor to test that actuator. It's not a good design. Not only is it loud when the lever hits the bell brace (could be solved with a strip of felt), the kinetics aren't good. The hinge is so far from where you impart force on the lever, and because it has just one little hinge pin, the whole thing tends to torque under your grip, making the lightweight lever twist and go a bit off line.
Cleaned up the slide a little. The instrument actually sounds and feels really, really good. Just needs a better trigger gizmo and a pro slide job. Good to go.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Non-matching serials are pretty common on Olds horns of that era - to the point that matching serial numbers are pretty rare, particularly in the more common configurations (M and LM bores in the Self-Balancing and Standard models).
If the lever is hitting the bell brace, it might be doing so before the valve is fully rotated. At the very least, you should check the witness marks.
Adapting any sort of modern linkage is going to be a job for a really good tech. OTOH, I doubt if you'd be happy with a recreation of the original, even if you would find someone willing and able to do so.
Keep us posted on how it goes.
If the lever is hitting the bell brace, it might be doing so before the valve is fully rotated. At the very least, you should check the witness marks.
Adapting any sort of modern linkage is going to be a job for a really good tech. OTOH, I doubt if you'd be happy with a recreation of the original, even if you would find someone willing and able to do so.
Keep us posted on how it goes.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Non-matching serials are pretty common on Olds horns of that era - to the point that matching serial numbers are pretty rare, particularly in the more common configurations (M and LM bores in the Self-Balancing and Standard models).
[/quote]
Do you mean they came from the factory with non matching serial numbers, or that there are a lot of non original slides/bells that got swapped over time?
[/quote]
Do you mean they came from the factory with non matching serial numbers, or that there are a lot of non original slides/bells that got swapped over time?
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="237146" time="1710177833" user_id="119">
Non-matching serials are pretty common on Olds horns of that era - to the point that matching serial numbers are pretty rare, particularly in the more common configurations (M and LM bores in the Self-Balancing and Standard models).
[/quote]
Do you mean they came from the factory with non matching serial numbers, or that there are a lot of non original slides/bells that got swapped over time?
</QUOTE>
I think the slides and bell sections were manufactured (and serialized) independently and then paired up at the end - possibly when they were pulled from stock for shipment.
From what I've seen, the sizes that were likely built to order (S, SM, LLM, L, and SYM) tend to have matching numbers, while the common sizes that would have been built for stock (M, LM) seldom have matching numbers. I could see a certain amount of mixing and matching happening over time, and that sort of thing would be more likely in the common sizes, but not to the degree that mismatched numbers would be the norm.
Eventually they did got rid of the issue (such as it was) by not putting a serial number on the bell sections at all.
Non-matching serials are pretty common on Olds horns of that era - to the point that matching serial numbers are pretty rare, particularly in the more common configurations (M and LM bores in the Self-Balancing and Standard models).
[/quote]
Do you mean they came from the factory with non matching serial numbers, or that there are a lot of non original slides/bells that got swapped over time?
</QUOTE>
I think the slides and bell sections were manufactured (and serialized) independently and then paired up at the end - possibly when they were pulled from stock for shipment.
From what I've seen, the sizes that were likely built to order (S, SM, LLM, L, and SYM) tend to have matching numbers, while the common sizes that would have been built for stock (M, LM) seldom have matching numbers. I could see a certain amount of mixing and matching happening over time, and that sort of thing would be more likely in the common sizes, but not to the degree that mismatched numbers would be the norm.
Eventually they did got rid of the issue (such as it was) by not putting a serial number on the bell sections at all.
- heldenbone
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Aug 21, 2018
Cleaned up the slide a little. The instrument actually sounds and feels really, really good. Just needs a better trigger gizmo and a pro slide job. Good to go.
So, how about a little more about how it plays? Some of us relics dig playing relics. My S-20 was eligible for Medicare about the same time I was.