Slide Cream choice and necessity of cleaning Rod?

Jackjack · by **Jackjack** » 2024-03-18 11:34 a.m.

I just fixed my slide and found that my instrument technician mentioned some chrome wear on the inner slide.

That's why he recommended I use trombone slide cream instead of slide lubricant.

Although I love my Yamaha lubricant, I need to make a change. I want to ask about slide cream.

I found three options: Trombotine, Superslick, and Yamaha slide cream.

Could anyone share their experiences with these?

Another question is about the slide cleaning rod. I've never used it until now;I usually clean with a snake instead. Is there any necessity to use the rod with cloths?

Nolankberk · by **Nolankberk** » 2024-03-18 12:24 p.m.

I use trombontine, but make sure you only put a very very very small amount or the slide will be sluggish. I'd say it is worth it to get a rod and some cheesecloth, you can't really get the same amount of friction or leverage with the snake

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-03-18 12:33 p.m.

Unless you've found the action to be noticeably worse, just keep using the Yamaha.

You should use a cleaning rod with any kind of slide lube!

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-03-18 12:40 p.m.

1. I'm not convinced that (for a properly-aligned / straightened and dent-free slide) slide cream is a better lubricant than liquid lubricant such as Yamaha Lubricant or Slide-O-Mix. But to expand your list, you could also consider Monster Oil Slide Cream. Pretty good stuff!

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dillonmusic.com/monster-tro ... icant.html">https://www.dillonmusic.com/monster-trombone-slide-cream-lubricant.html</LINK_TEXT>

2. Yes, you should use something other than a "snake" (stiff brush on a metal coil) to clean the inside of your slide. My recommendation:

a. Toss the snake

b. Get an HWP Brass-Saver (soft pull-through brush with a long plastic lead ribbon – will pass through the entire outer slide, including the end crook!)

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dillonmusic.com/service/sea ... ull&page=1">https://www.dillonmusic.com/service/search/?bs_q=HW%20Brass-Saver&limit=null&page=1</LINK_TEXT>

c. Get a Slide-O-Mix towel sheath and cleaning rod. Use as directed.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.dillonmusic.com/slide-o-mix ... ystem.html">https://www.dillonmusic.com/slide-o-mix-slide-o-mix-trombone-cleaning-system.html</LINK_TEXT>

Keep your trombone clean, and store it dry!

Jackjack · by **Jackjack** » 2024-03-18 1:02 p.m.

Thank you do much for detail information. HWP Brass saver looks very promising also. I will give it a try! Thanks!

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-03-18 3:29 p.m.

I've also used Trombontine, and echo the recommendation to use just a tiny, tiny bit of it.

And a huge YES to the cleaning rod. I use it every week to keep my slides happy.

chouston3 · by **chouston3** » 2024-03-18 3:34 p.m.

Trombotine has worked great for me. The cleaning rod is essential.

I had one horn with a slide that felt terrible after I washed it. However, after using the cleaning rod on it, it felt fine.

Aiden had a video where he talks about using yamaha lube and a cleaning rod. It is worth a watch.

Jackjack · by **Jackjack** » 2024-03-18 4:01 p.m.

[quote="chouston3"]Trombotine has worked great for me. The cleaning rod is essential.

I had one horn with a slide that felt terrible after I washed it. However, after using the cleaning rod on it, it felt fine.

Aiden had a video where he talks about using yamaha lube and a cleaning rod. It is worth a watch.[/quote]

Thanks. It is very helpful video.

I will leave a link hier in case of anyone read this thread and want to find the video!

<YOUTUBE id="pGlyUVQCeCI">https://youtu.be/pGlyUVQCeCI?si=PkOI3iMhK2vgdicl</YOUTUBE>

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-03-18 11:34 p.m.

I am currently playing on a recently purchased beater 2b that was sticking (read locking) in 6th and 7th. Wiping the inners with a paper towel yielded something green. Inspection of the inner slide shows the appearance of plating wear at the upper stocking top without obvious brass showing. I cleaned the outer slide with Bar Keepers Friend (TM) and the much maligned snake brush, and the inner slides with Dawn (TM) Dish soap. The resulting “stripped” slide had to be re-seasoned with Yamaha slide oil. But it went a whole 2 hour rehearsal without re-application during rehearsal. I should have asked for Bruce’s take on Bar Keepers Friend (TM) aka oxalic acid prior to experimenting.

SimmonsTrombone · by **SimmonsTrombone** » 2024-03-19 6:00 a.m.

I had a very old horn that benefited from Trombotine (autocorrect changed trombotine to For voting) and the Yamaha lube over it instead of water.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2024-03-19 8:32 a.m.

[quote="OneTon"]I am currently playing on a recently purchased beater 2b that was sticking (read locking) in 6th and 7th. Wiping the inners with a paper towel yielded something green. Inspection of the inner slide shows the appearance of plating wear at the upper stocking top without obvious brass showing. I cleaned the outer slide with Bar Keepers Friend (TM) and the much maligned snake brush, and the inner slides with Dawn (TM) Dish soap. The resulting “stripped” slide had to be re-seasoned with Yamaha slide oil. But it went a whole 2 hour rehearsal without re-application during rehearsal. I should have asked for Bruce’s take on Bar Keepers Friend (TM) aka oxalic acid prior to experimenting.[/quote]

I picked up very nice old King2BSS last spring, and the slide was pretty good...just a little sticky in one place.

Isopropyl Alchol fixed it right up! I poured some into the assembled slide, did the slush-pump, took the slides apart, wiped them down (inner and outer), and repeated the procedure.

Then a good flushing with warm water and another wipedown.

Slide has been beautiful ever since.

Nobbi · by **Nobbi** » 2024-03-19 9:50 a.m.

Trombotine works perfect for me ...

In combination with daily usage of an HWP Brass-Saver and about once a month a total clean up with a cleaning rod ... the slides of my trombones are swiss clockwork.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-03-19 4:38 p.m.

[quote="Cmillar"]

I picked up very nice old King2BSS last spring, and the slide was pretty good...just a little sticky in one place.

Isopropyl Alchol fixed it right up! I poured some into the assembled slide, did the slush-pump, took the slides apart, wiped them down (inner and outer), and repeated the procedure.

Then a good flushing with warm water and another wipedown.

Slide has been beautiful ever since.[/quote]

Clean is the key. Whatever works. I used isopropyl alcohol years ago when the first generation Yamaha slide oil tried to cake up on the inner slides. I think the green slime I pulled out was remnants of Trombotine. Almost had to call Ghostbusters.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2024-03-19 7:13 p.m.

Doesn't anyone remember Bill Watrous' video about how to clean a slide ? He ran the cheesecloth/ rod back and forth in the outer slide often enough to create sufficient heat to melt down the accumulated "grunge" and to remove it from the outer slide. I don't remember what he suggested as a lube, but once the "grunge" was gone I would imagine that any lube would work well enough to satisfy the pickiest of us. The first time I used a slide rod and cold cream I got terrible results until my instructor informed me that instead of purchasing "Pond's Cold Cream" I bought "Pond's Vanishing Cream" ! Trust me ! It doesn't work ! :clever:

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-03-19 11:58 p.m.

Bill Watrous used Pond’s cold cream. The video is on YouTube under “Bill Watrous trombone slide preparation 1999.”

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-03-20 1:41 a.m.

[quote="2bobone"]I bought "Pond's Vanishing Cream" ! Trust me ! It doesn't work ! :clever:[/quote]
You're lucky your slide didn't disappear.

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2024-03-21 12:30 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="2bobone" post_id="237901" time="1710890031" user_id="185">I bought "Pond's Vanishing Cream" ! Trust me ! It doesn't work ! :clever:[/quote]
You're lucky your slide didn't disappear.
</QUOTE>

Now THAT I'd love to see.

:pant:

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-03-21 12:44 p.m.

[quote="sungfw"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="237921" time="1710913273" user_id="119">

You're lucky your slide didn't disappear.[/quote]

Now THAT I'd love to see.

:pant:
</QUOTE>

Didn’t Jack Teagarden do a schtick like that? Or maybe it was Frank Rehak…? Joe Colvin…?

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-03-29 5:16 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]Clean is the key. Whatever works. I used isopropyl alcohol years ago when the first generation Yamaha slide oil tried to cake up on the inner slides. I think the green slime I pulled out was remnants of Trombotine. Almost had to call Ghostbusters.[/quote]

Clean very definitely is key. And dry (when stored away in a case or on a stand). I got in the habit of carrying along in the case a push-rod with a small piece of microfibre cloth tied on the end. And a larger loose piece of microfibre cloth. After every practice session, rehearsal, or gig, I methodically swabbed out all inner tubes and wiped down all outer tubes until scrupulously dry. [The small amount of moisture remaining in the bow will evaporate quickly. But the bow should be cleaned with a "snake" about once a week.] The only thing that should appear on either piece of cloth is moisture (from breath condensation and/or spray bottle) and a minuscule remnant of whatever "lubricant" you're using. Speaking of which, ever since Ponds (cold) cream added lanolin to its formula (which makes it unusably sticky), I've had the best luck with REKA Super-Slide. It's a shear-thinning polymer that holds water droplets in place--and it's the (low-viscosity) water that acts as the lubricant (in all cases). Reka doesn't require much sprayed water (breath condensation is almost enough), and it lasts a very long time. As a check on how clean (and dry) all the slide tubes should be when stored, hold each inner tube up to a bright light and look through. You should see a mirror finish inside. The slightest sign of "crud", and you need to do a major cleaning operation (on all tubes), as discussed earlier.

rmb796 · by **rmb796** » 2024-04-05 12:08 p.m.

I have been using superslick and a cleaning rod for the past 40 years. Seems to work just fine. I have used Trombotine on some slides that were a little rough and it worked good.

Started out for the first 9 years of my playing useing PONDS Cold Cream - no problem and smelled gooood !!

Randy

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-05 3:44 p.m.

[quote="2bobone"]Doesn't anyone remember Bill Watrous' video about how to clean a slide ? He ran the cheesecloth/ rod back and forth in the outer slide often enough to create sufficient heat to melt down the accumulated "grunge" and to remove it from the outer slide. I don't remember what he suggested as a lube, but once the "grunge" was gone I would imagine that any lube would work well enough to satisfy the pickiest of us. The first time I used a slide rod and cold cream I got terrible results until my instructor informed me that instead of purchasing "Pond's Cold Cream" I bought "Pond's Vanishing Cream" ! Trust me ! It doesn't work ! :clever:[/quote]

The most important part of that routine is that he used to swab the slide with the cheesecloth wrapped around a cleaning rod <I><U>DAILY</U></I>. If you don't keep it clean, you can friction the slide all you want and it won't melt the baked-on goop inside.

And yeah, back in the day we all used Pond's Cold Cream. It was pretty much all there was. As with Trombotine, the trick to using cold cream is to use a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of it, and work it in really well.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-04-08 7:49 p.m.

I think we are conflating two different things. You should have a cleaning rod and you should swab out the outer slide with a cloth as discussed, and you should wipe off the outside of the inner slide with a cloth. You're not washing it, just swabbing it. This should be done frequently. Some people even do it every day. You will likely get black or green stuff coming off onto the cloth.

The other thing you should do, which you can do once a month or so, is fill the slide with water and a little dish soap, and run the snake through the inner slide while it's inside the outer slide (that way the soapy water is being held in there), then take the inner slide out and run the snake through the outer slide, so that you get the snake down into the crook. Never try to clean the inner slide with a rod; you will damage it. Snake only for inner slide. After you wash the slide this way, you can dry the outer slide with the rod and cloth.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-09 9:08 a.m.

^^^

This is pretty much the routine I've settled into. I don't necessarily swab the slide(s) every day, but it's got to the point that I do it every couple of days, and whenever I "reapply" slide lube. And then less frequently (once a month or so) I'll do a thorough cleaning with Simple Green, alcohol, and snake.

I spent several years experimenting with various slide lubes, including several creams and several silicones, and combinations of these. Finally I've settled on a pure silicone approach -- with no cream of any kind. This avoids any issues with cream "residue" or "build-up". I've just felt that the cream didn't contribute anything if using the silicone, and resulted in additional cleaning issues. My preferred slide lube now is the Yamaha Slide Lubricant, but at the moment I'm still working through using some older/different silicone lube I have because there's no sense in pitching it out even though it's not quite as good as the Yama-slime.

Not wanting to start a bickering debate about rod use and its dangers, I won't describe exactly what I do. But I don't use the cheesecloth approach. I'm sure that the cheesecloth approach is to be preferred. I am careful on the less frequent and more thorough cleanings to thoroughly clean my inner slide, and find that I can't really accomplish that with a "brush" style snake. It always leaves residue, and if I'm going to clean the insides of the inners, then I like to see a mirror-like result. I'm hoping the Brass Saver may work well for that, and otherwise won't detail the approach that I now take and is very effective.

Of course, on my bass with the removeable lead pipe, I remove the lead pipe for thorough cleaning, clean both it and the slide, relube the lead pipe (tiny amount of Dow Corning silicone high vacuum grease), and reassemble after cleaning the inners. On my little tenor with a non-removeable lead pipe, a different technique is required.

The daily (or almost daily) quick swabbing makes a huge difference in keeping the slide clean and in the ease of thoroughly cleaning it. And for me, at least, not using any "cream" makes things a lot easer.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-09 3:17 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]Never try to clean the inner slide with a rod; you will damage it. Snake only for inner slide.[/quote]

Just to be clear, every time before putting the instrument away (in the case or on a stand), I prefer to clean (and dry) the inside of the inner tubes with a push-rod with a strip of microfibre cloth--to a mirror finish. But (of course) you have to be careful not to spring the the tubes out of alignment: hold with one hand only the end of the tube you're swabbing with the other. [Same with the outer slide.] I have described elsewhere my attempt at cleaning the slide of a high-school instrument. At first, looking through the insides of the inner tubes, I could see that they were covered in "black muck"--after years of build-up of who-knows-what. It took a while, but a mirror finish was ultimately obtained. Sound-waves probably don't like to vibrate clearly when the walls of tubes are covered in "black-muck". Imagine covering the inner surfaces with a thin layer of felt!

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-09 4:03 p.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]= I prefer to clean (and dry) the inside of the inner tubes with a push-rod with a strip of microfibre cloth--to a mirror finish. ...[/quote]

You mean ... you do something like this?

<YOUTUBE id="JBrVAsWi9I4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBrVAsWi9I4</YOUTUBE>

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-04-09 4:53 p.m.

The method of cleaning the inner slide show in the video could easily torque or bend the tube unless you’re very careful. My preferences to clean the inner slide:

1. When necessary, remove the leadpipe. Remove the inner slide. Put the inner and out slides in a bathtub with warm-to-hot water. Use a little dish soap and a snake, and rinse well. Dry the outer slide with a rod and cloth. Dry the inner slide with a Brass Saver or Yamaha slide swab (my preference). Lubricate the end of the leadpipe with appropriate tuning slide grease, and a tiny bit on the threads. Place the tuning slide back into the inner slide. Lubricate the slide.

2. Alternately, there’s the “slush pump” method. It’s quick and easy for a good weekly cleaning of the inner and outer slide:

Fill a sink about halfway with hot water. Invert the slide, placing the tenon with longer, second yard of the slide into the water. The receiver—the end of first yard where the mouthpiece fits—should be out of the water.

Place your left thumb over the mouthpiece receiver. As you move the slide out with your right had—the motion actually points up over your right shoulder—keep your thumb on the receiver. This draws water into the slide via suction. As the slide nears the stockings, remove your left thumb from the tenon (hold onto the slide!), then move the outer slide back in, i.e., downwards towards the sink. The water will shoot out of the receiver. Do this several times, somewhat rapidly. Think allegretto or allegro, not presto.

Finish by putting the outer slide around 2nd position (maybe a high G), and slowly bring the slide to a level position parallel to the floor. A small amount of water will drip from the barrels. Then grab a cloth and wipe it down.

At this point you can use a snake, if desired, then repeat the process to remove anything dislodged by the snake. Dry and lubricate as needed.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-09 6:16 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]The method of cleaning the inner slide show in the video could easily torque or bend the tube unless you’re very careful.[/quote]
I'd prefer to say "unless you're not reasonably careful." But we all have our own levels of anxiety to deal with. For several reasons, I'd be much more worried about the bathtub scenario (and I've used the bathtub scenario for cleaning several different brass instruments up to a large tuba in size). I'm also not prepared to say that THAT guy (with his experience in dealing both with trombones and trombone players) is being irresponsible in the method he recommends. So I'm sticking with it. :idk:

chouston3 · by **chouston3** » 2024-04-09 9:08 p.m.

I usually just use a snake brush on the inside of the inner slide. I would consider using a cleaning rod but the leadpipe would need to come out first.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-04-10 5:01 a.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="239936" time="1712620181" user_id="4102">
Never try to clean the inner slide with a rod; you will damage it. Snake only for inner slide.[/quote]

Just to be clear, every time before putting the instrument away (in the case or on a stand), I prefer to clean (and dry) the inside of the inner tubes with a push-rod with a strip of microfibre cloth--to a mirror finish. But (of course) you have to be careful not to spring the the tubes out of alignment: hold with one hand only the end of the tube you're swabbing with the other. [Same with the outer slide.] I have described elsewhere my attempt at cleaning the slide of a high-school instrument. At first, looking through the insides of the inner tubes, I could see that they were covered in "black muck"--after years of build-up of who-knows-what. It took a while, but a mirror finish was ultimately obtained. Sound-waves probably don't like to vibrate clearly when the walls of tubes are covered in "black-muck". Imagine covering the inner surfaces with a thin layer of felt!
</QUOTE>
You need to be careful when advising people to clean the inner slides with a rod, because they WILL get the cloth jammed inside the leadpipe, likely destroying it. Not all leadpipes are removable. Best not to even try. "Black muck" is easily removed with the snake brush as I described. "Mirror finish" is neither required nor desired inside the inner slide tubes.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-04-10 8:34 a.m.

I mostly will use a snake on both; perhaps loosely barber piled cotton gauze on a rod for outers. If there is excessive filth, I take it to the shop. “A man’s got to know his limitations.”

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 9:42 a.m.

In that video from Edwards Instruments I posted, it's obvious that the inner slide being cleaned has the lead pipe in it. You can see this at 0:56-0:59 and other points in the video. It's not clear who's doing the cleaning, but given other YouTube postings by Edwards on slide cleaning, my guess is that it's Christan Griego. In any event, it seems apparent that we have a conflict among experts/professionals concerning the issue of using a rod to clean the inner slide tubes. So ... take your pick -- we don't have to settle on "There is only one true path." I (and others) use, with as much care as I can muster, the method in that Edwards video. Yet others may choose not to.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-04-10 9:44 a.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]The method of cleaning the inner slide show in the video could easily torque or bend the tube unless you’re very careful. My preferences to clean the inner slide:

2. Alternately, there’s the “slush pump” method. It’s quick and easy for a good weekly cleaning of the inner and outer slide:
[/quote]

I agree. The leverage of the rod in an unsupported inner slide tube will never survive a beginner. Probably the safest is a brush with the inner slide safely inside the outer slide.

Many years ago I torqued my slide using the slush pump method and had to have a tech fix it.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 10:26 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]The leverage of the rod in an unsupported inner slide tube will never survive a beginner.[/quote]
Honestly, I'm puzzled by this. What "leverage"? You're obviously not supposed to jam it in and then pull it sideways.

If in fact it's done correctly, there should be NO leverage. That's the point of the instruction in the video. And the inner slide tube in question is in fact supported by the other hand. This is part of learning the technique -- which most people can do from the video -- which is the point of the video, from one of the premier instrument shops in the country. You're putting a straight rod into a straight tube. Of course if you're clumsy or careless you can mess that up. But it's not like you're trying to do vascular surgery on yourself. I think that if I were that concerned about damaging the slide, I'd never take the horn out of its case. But maybe that's just me. :roll:

Okay ... I'll agree that you probably don't want to let your 12 year old kid try this on his/her own. I'll go that far. But even that depends on the kid, and giving them the correct instruction and demonstration. Are we all really supposed to be this fearful of cleaning our instruments in some reasonable ways that are even demonstrated to us by accomplished techs?

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-10 11:01 a.m.

Here are a couple of stills from early in the video. My stomach turned over when I saw the technician's hand holding the brace while jamming the push-rod into the tube. An excellent example of what we've all been talking about as to what NOT to do! Torque = r x F. So, to guarantee zero torque, you have to make sure that r = 0 by holding on to the tube itself, not the brace.

And regarding "mirror finish", this is to check that the insides of the tubes are dry. With routine maintenance, there should never be anything other than moisture coming out of the insides of the inner tubes. Never. And, as pointed out, the amount of cloth should never be enough to "ball-up" and get stuck in the lead-pipe.

.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 11:41 a.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]Here are a couple of stills from early in the video. My stomach turned over when I saw the technician's hand holding the brace while jamming the push-rod into the tube.[/quote]
While that's not how I hold the slide in doing this, I think that grip does prevent the bending that's feared. But again, there can be some finesse in this, and there is no "jamming" involved. The swab is not THAT tight in the bore. I in fact use 2 1/2" round cotton cleaning patches in such a way that they are "snug" in the bore but don't require any "force" in running the rod down the tube. Particularly with the leadpipe in the horn, it can't be too tight or it will just get stuck in the leadpipe before it gets a chance to torque or bend the tube.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-10 11:51 a.m.

This is the correct grip (later in the video). For both tubes.

.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 12:11 p.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]This is the correct grip (later in the video). For both tubes.[/quote]

Yup.

StephenK · by **StephenK** » 2024-04-10 2:48 p.m.

I use Yamaha slide lube on two instruments and trombone on another, use the SoM sheaths regularly (very useful), snake occasionally.

Any tips about descaling slides? I live in a hard water area. My tech suggested normal kettle descaler. If I spray water I use de-ionised water (eg for steam irons).

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-04-10 3:57 p.m.

[quote="StephenK"]I use Yamaha slide lube on two instruments and trombone on another, use the SoM sheaths regularly (very useful), snake occasionally.

Any tips about descaling slides? I live in a hard water area. My tech suggested normal kettle descaler. If I spray water I use de-ionised water (eg for steam irons).[/quote]
Distilled white vinegar removes deposits very well. You could use that in the inner tubes. I would neutralize it with baking soda afterwards. I don't think I'd try that on the outer slide, though. You may find that removing the corrosion inside will leave a rough, etched surface and make the slide action even worse. Take it to a tech who really knows how to work on trombone slides.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-10 4:29 p.m.

Going back to the original question of which slide "cream" to use (as distinct from "lubricant"), I'm curious to know what experience others have had with REKA Super-Slide--once the slide in good physical condition (presumably after "conditioning" with a suitable cream, and then wiping every metal surface scrupulously clean). REKA is described as a "Trombone Lubricant"--but, of course, with any cream or lubricant (other than "oil-based" lubricants), when sparingly applied, it's the water that's acting as the lubricant. Creams and slurries hold the water droplets more-or-less evenly dispersed around the metal surfaces. I have always found REKA to be much "slicker" and longer lasting (in terms of holding the water in place) than any of the "creams" or other "lubricants" mentioned (even the original Ponds-Cold-Cream).

The REKA website has a lot of helpful information on many of the "cleaning" and "conditioning" topics that have arisen here. I note that they claim that no additional water-spray is necessary. I've always used a tiny bit--mostly force-of-habit.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 4:44 p.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]I note that they claim that no additional water-spray is necessary.[/quote]
I have not read their material nor used their product, but just based on physics, this seems nutty. :roll:

Maybe the emphasis is on "necessary" -- and isn't a claim that adding spray doesn't improve performance.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-04-10 5:06 p.m.

I disagree that "it's the water that's acting as the lubricant." It is, in fact, the lubricant doing its job.

I have several trombones with super-smooth slides (perhaps mostly due their original condition and my anal-compulsive slide hygiene protocol). Since I started in the Pond's Cold Cream era many decades ago, I've always lubed the slide and followed with a spray of water, thinking it was the water droplets proving a "lubrication layer." Some time ago, I switched to distilled water for my water spray, and to liquid lubricants - first Slide-O-Mix 2-part; now Slide-O-Mix Rapid Comfort or Yamaha Slide Lube (which I find equally effective - applying a few drops to stocking and upper slide, and distributing, but not wiping, before I play). [After playing - at least every few days if not the same day - my slides (inner and outer) get completely cleaned and dried until the next time they are played.] Several weeks ago, I forgot the distilled water spray at the beginning of a rehearsal. The result: My (dry but lubed) slide stayed smooth and fast until the end of a 2-hour session! I have now repeated the waterless protocol on two other excellent slides, with the same result. The water spray is (at least mostly) unnecessary on a good (straight & true, undented, properly cleaned & maintained, ...) slide. And as an extra benefit: I empty my water valve much less frequently.

Perhaps I would achieve a different result on a less-than-perfect slide, or with a different lubricant - but right now, I'm a happy camper! :cool:

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 5:19 p.m.

Yeah ... I'm going to have to say that that doesn't look so much like a controlled experiment to me. :)

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-10 5:21 p.m.

I haven't used water in a decade. My slides last multiple days.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 5:25 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I haven't used water in a decade. My slides last multiple days.[/quote]
So what do you use? The closest I've come to that is the Yamahsnot. On the other hand, maybe a couple of days is within my ballpark too -- other things being equal.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-10 5:34 p.m.

Yamasnot on all my horns, regardless of age. Life is too short to be picky! I swab them out once a week or so.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 5:39 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Yamasnot on all my horns, regardless of age. Life is too short to be picky! I swab them out once a week or so.[/quote]
That's what I was doing as well. But then I started using up this old bottle of Spacefiller Ultimate I I stumbled across in a drawer, and performance degraded a bit. I seriously think that the ethylene glycol in Yamasnot makes a difference -- but have no evidence for this. We all have our odd beliefs. :roll:

bitbckt · by **bitbckt** » 2024-04-10 6:35 p.m.

I use the same protocol as Aiden and nary a drop of water used, ergo no water droplets to ride on.

I did use the Trombotine + water protocol until about 10 years ago, in which case the water as “bearings” hypothesis might have actually… held water.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-10 6:46 p.m.

[quote="bitbckt"]I use the same protocol as Aiden and nary a drop of water used, ergo no water droplets to ride on.

I did use the Trombotine + water protocol until about 10 years ago, in which case the water as “bearings” hypothesis might have actually… held water.[/quote]

Breath condensate is (mostly) . . . water. Hence the need for a water key. Without using a spray bottle, it's "THAT" water that's acting as the lubricant.

bitbckt · by **bitbckt** » 2024-04-10 7:02 p.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]Breath condensate is (mostly) . . . water. Hence the need for a water key. Without using a spray bottle, it's "THAT" water that's acting as the lubricant.[/quote]

This denies the initial condition of the slide: clean and dry, apply the snot, fast slide. I will grant there is water present after I have breathed through the tube at least once, but the lube appears to work as lube from minute one. It then degrades with use… I suppose as water rinses it off the slide. Oops.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-10 7:44 p.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]Breath condensate is (mostly) . . . water. Hence the need for a water key. Without using a spray bottle, it's "THAT" water that's acting as the lubricant.[/quote]
I was going to mention that, but anticipated it would be answered by ad hoc hypotheses and non sequiturs -- and don't want to go down that path.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-04-11 3:33 a.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]<QUOTE author="bitbckt" post_id="240138" time="1712788524" user_id="9927">
I use the same protocol as Aiden and nary a drop of water used, ergo no water droplets to ride on.

I did use the Trombotine + water protocol until about 10 years ago, in which case the water as “bearings” hypothesis might have actually… held water.[/quote]

Breath condensate is (mostly) . . . water. Hence the need for a water key. Without using a spray bottle, it's "THAT" water that's acting as the lubricant.
</QUOTE>

I still respectfully disagree. If the lubrication is (mostly) provided by the water (droplets from a spray bottle, thin layer of condensation, ...) then why does the particular type or brand of lubricant "underlayer" make such a dramatic difference in how slippery my slide is? [And my good (lubed) slides are very slippery even before my first breath into the trombone.] I think we could use the informed opinion of a good tribologist. Or at least a properly designed experiment! :idk:

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-11 7:51 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]I still respectfully disagree. If the lubrication is (mostly) provided by the water (droplets from a spray bottle, thin layer of condensation, ...) then why does the particular type or brand of lubricant "underlayer" make such a dramatic difference in how slippery my slide is? [And my good (lubed) slides are very slippery even before my first breath into the trombone.] I think we could use the informed opinion of a good tribologist. Or at least a properly designed experiment! :idk:[/quote]

The original (before-lanolin) Ponds Cream on the slide, before being sprayed with water, is rather "sticky". Please note the final listed ingredient of the Yamaha slide oil.

.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-04-11 8:35 a.m.

A soap box derby axle could be fabricated from a four inch diameter outer tube packed with randomly distributed ball bearings supporting a two inch solid bar axle, and

Lubricated with 90 weight oil. The ball bearings may not stay where they’re desired to be. The axle may wobble or even ground out with metal to metal contact with the tube. A better plan is to capture finite numbers of balls in races strategically distributed to provide adequate support that can minimize friction.

The emulsion is not altogether different. Except that we can’t organize our outer slide support with raceways. Water by itself is plenty slick but it wants to run away and disappear altogether with friction. Oil is slick but prone to uneven distributions and getting sticky. An oil and water emulsion allows a matrix to be formed that allows for a more desirable distribution and less friction. Water aids oil distribution and oil helps with sustaining a slippery contact surface. It is a matrix.

Traditional viscosity tests were conducted with a rotating device on a fixed turntable. There can be a fixed force applied to the “rider,” The force required to sustain rotation is measured to yield viscosities. The data yielded may or may not have direct or significant relevance to this application. Separate data would need to be gathered to establish correlation.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-04-11 9:06 a.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]

Breath condensate is (mostly) . . . water.[/quote]

I agree, as far as it goes.

But I don't think condensate is where all, or even most, of the water in a horn comes from.

I think most comes from saliva being expelled from vibrating lips. My reason for thinking this is that older horns have lots of mineral deposits built up, and I don't see how that comes from condensate, which should be relatively pure. I've looked at analyses of saliva and there's lots of other stuff in there. I think that's what gets on the inside of tubing.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-11 9:41 a.m.

If you carefully read the REKA page on their product closely (and especially if you compare parts of it to the original German), it becomes quickly apparent that it's really all standard marketing hype for a "single-application" silicone-based slide lubricant that's undistinguished when compared to a variety of the others on the market. Their own claims about longevity between applications in fact fall short of what Aiden and I (and I presume others) have found with Yamasnot -- although this isn't to say that if we actually tried the REKA stuff on our horns it wouldn't perform as well as (or better than?) the Yamasnot. It might.

We have one testimonial for it in this thread, and that shouldn't be discounted for those thinking about trying it -- regardless of the side-discussion involving the role of water/spray or condensate (which the REKA text acknowledges). So maybe more people should try it and report comparative results. I'm too lazy to do that and, pending more information, will stick with the Yamasnot.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-11 9:44 a.m.

Over forty years ago, when I first started using REKA, a tribologist colleague (who knew nothing about the mechanics of trombones) inquired about how slides were typically lubricated. I showed him the REKA (and mentioned that it was common practice to also use a fine mist of water from a spray-bottle). He rubbed a little between his thumb and fingers and immediately said, "Ah, a shear-thinning polymer. That's interesting. And it's the water that acts as the lubricant, of course. Hmm." Not a "controlled experiment". But a reliable "expert opinion". I hadn't thought much about it before that. But ever since then, the tribologist's immediate declaration of "water . . . of course" seems to make sense.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-11 9:55 a.m.

[quote="Sesquitone"]And it's the water that acts as the lubricant, of course. Hmm."[/quote]
I think you have to admit that's an oversimplification. Otherwise why not simply go to using water (it's "THE lubricant," after all) as the only lubricant? If it's really the water that's acting as THE lubricant, then you don't need anything else.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-04-11 10:11 a.m.

The problem with pure water is it's very "fugitive", i.e. doesn't last long. One thing the old lubricants like Pond's or Trombotine did was to provide a hydrophilic surface that kept moisture in place. Often metallic surfaces are oliophilic so the other ends of the surfactant will "bond" to the metal surface. The surfactant thus is holding the water in place to act as the actual lubricant.

Silicones, if I recall properly, also act as hydrophilic surfaces. They also slide on themselves, so a silicone coated inner slide will slip on a silicone coated outer slide inside.

One problem I have discovered is that there is some incompatibility between surfactant based lubricants and silicone lubricants that creates a gummy interface so if you put Reka on a Trombotine slide it won't work out well. However, we do know that the silicone in Superslick treatment (the little Plus bottle) seems to work well on top of Trombotine or even Pond's cold cream.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-11 10:42 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]One problem I have discovered is that there is some incompatibility between surfactant based lubricants and silicone lubricants that creates a gummy interface ...[/quote]

It appears that this can't be a general problem with silicone/surfactant combinations -- since Yamasnot contains both and works exceptionally well with no apparent "gum".

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-04-11 10:51 a.m.

Yamasnot is apparently formulated to not have the "gummy" problem. Remember, there are hundreds of surfactants and dozens of silicone lubricants. You can probably find pairs that work but you can also find pairs that don't.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-04-11 11:29 a.m.

One pair of lubricants that works well for me are Trombotine and UltraPure Alessi Formula. My slide cleaning routine looks like this:

I often slush pump my slide (see above) to remove any gross particles, anywhere from every 2-3 days or once a week. Then I’ll either use a rod and some muslin or similar material to dry the outer slide, or I’ll use a Yamaha slide swab (the kind with a drop weight, a long string, and a microfiber cloth). Then I’ll use 2-3 drops of UltraPure on one stocking of the inner slide, work it in, then the same for the other slide. I rarely use water these days, but I still keep a spray bottle filled with distilled water.

About once per week, I’ll do a more thorugh cleaning. I start with the slush pump routine. Then I’ll use the rod and cloth by applying a small amount of Trombotine to the end of the cloth (about the size of a dried lentil or a split pea), and swabbing the outer slide. I work it in by rubbing vigorously (again, allegro or allegretto, not presto or vivace). This applies a thin, even layer to the inside of the tube and, I believe, helps to further clean the tube. I finish by applying UltraPure as described above.

This works well for me. YMMV.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-11 12:44 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Remember, there are hundreds of surfactants and dozens of silicone lubricants. You can probably find pairs that work but you can also find pairs that don't.[/quote]
Yeah. I took the way in which you'd phrased the problem to be without qualification, and was wondering about that.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-11 12:47 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]One pair of lubricants that works well for me are Trombotine and UltraPure Alessi Formula. My slide cleaning routine looks like this:

...

This works well for me. YMMV.[/quote]

That's an awful lot time and effort simply on slide maintenance in a single week. Given how much mileage I figure I have left on myself, it's not for me. :lol:

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-04-11 12:56 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Yamasnot is apparently formulated to not have the "gummy" problem. Remember, there are hundreds of surfactants and dozens of silicone lubricants. You can probably find pairs that work but you can also find pairs that don't.[/quote]

Sounds a lot like entanglement. Does this mean if we know what is happening on the upper we also know what is happening on the lower?

All kidding aside, I admire you knowledge and clarity of input.

Posaunus · 2024-04-11 1:11 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]I often slush pump my slide (see above) to remove any gross particles, anywhere from every 2-3 days or once a week.[/quote]

What's the source of these "gross particles?"

I carefully clean the interior of my slides (inner and outer) regularly (at least every few days). I get very little, if any, greenish deposit (copper oxide) on my slide-wiping cloth, and never see particulate matter on the cloth-wrapped cleaning rod or the Slide-O-Mix towel sheath that I use to completely dry the slide interiors. I do brush my teeth if I've recently eaten before I touch the trombone mouthpiece to my lips, to ensure there is no food residue.

My trombone hygiene protocol does take a few (~5-6) minutes every few days (slide cleaning and drying; valve lubrication if relevant) - but the payoff is nearly perfect, smooth slides and no reason to visit a technician. Once I have achieved my baseline (full service including alignment and chemical cleaning by an expert slide tech), there are no "mineral deposits" to scrape off or chemically remove. (Any minerals in my saliva are removed by frequent cleaning before they have a chance to "deposit!") I no longer feel the need to give my trombones a bath - there's really nothing to wash out, now that I've learned to keep them clean and dry. :good:

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-11 1:24 p.m.

I wonder how many of us have actually read Yamaha's instructions for using their slide lube. I just did, and discovered that:

(a) They suggest not even taking the outer slide off to apply the lubricant, but to apply it at the TOP of the inner slide and then it will just "run down the slide".

(b) Not to worry "about using too much" because any excess will "drain out through the water key" and there is no "risk of excess buildup". However, I do worry a bit about this, mostly because it's really easy to use more than you intend to, and also because of the cost of the stuff. But it's nice to know you can't "overdose" the slide, I guess. But I'm sensing some marketing input on these instructions. :roll:

(c) Although the slide "may already be fast enough to use at this point," they suggest for the "best action" (!!!) you should "use a spray bottle to apply a fine mist of water before or as needed while playing."

Now I'm so conflicted. :?

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-11 1:28 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]

What's the source of these "gross particles?"
[/quote]

Probably in your gross spit, and in the chunks of calcium that form from the spit and reactions inside the slide, and then either get bigger and bigger until you can't move your slide any more, or break off and cause the sort of destruction that befell the Titanic.

I kind of like this model. It explains a lot.

Sesquitone · by **Sesquitone** » 2024-04-11 9:09 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]

My trombone hygiene protocol does take a few (~5-6) minutes every few days (slide cleaning and drying; valve lubrication if relevant) - but the payoff is nearly perfect, smooth slides and no reason to visit a technician. Once I have achieved my baseline (full service including alignment and chemical cleaning by an expert slide tech), there are no "mineral deposits" to scrape off or chemically remove. (Any minerals in my saliva are removed by frequent cleaning before they have a chance to "deposit!") I no longer feel the need to give my trombones a bath - there's really nothing to wash out, now that I've learned to keep them clean and dry. :good:[/quote]

That has been my experience, too. But I got into the habit of wiping down and drying all inner and outer slide surfaces even more frequently: after every practice session, rehearsal or public performance—before putting the instrument away into its case or resting on a stand. Literally, one or two minutes beyond putting it into the case. The key word is DRY. Nothing (repeat, nothing) ever builds up on the metal surfaces. No "major" cleaning is necessary—there's nothing to clean out. A snake through the slide bow (maybe once a month), just because I can't see that "mirror finish" there that I can see on the inside of the inner tubes (and that I can assume that something similarly pristine occurs on the inside of the outer tubes).

Indigowarpz · by **Indigowarpz** » 2024-07-09 6:37 a.m.

I apologize that I haven’t read every reply to this question, but my go-to for years while I was playing regularly was Reka Superslide. I’m uncertain of it’s actual makeup or if it’s synthetic or otherwise, but a small application seemed to do the trick for a while.

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2024-07-10 10:05 a.m.

I use this to swab out the inners after I have run water through the slide section 2-3 times a week, and then use the cleaning rod on the outers.

My preferred lube is either Trombotine or Superslick cream, a drop of formula 3, and water.

My slides have continued to stay very slick for years.

If a horn is going to be stored for awhile, the slide section gets a thorough cleaning with warm water, a drop of dish soap, and the cleaning snake. I only use the cleaning rod on the outers, no snake.

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