New York

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2024-04-12 9:43 p.m.

Hi All, a rather disturbing article came up in my faceplant feed regarding the NY Phil.

And I'm sure most of you have seen or heard about it.......

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Eric

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-04-12 10:52 p.m.

I wish I could say that it's shocking. Sadly, I cannot. This sort of thing happens all too often to be shocking.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-04-13 4:45 a.m.

I guess many people have learned to keep their mouth shut a bit too much. However I guess to some extent everyone is guilty of seeing things and not doing anything about it.

boneberg · by **boneberg** » 2024-04-13 5:13 a.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.vulture.com/article/new-yor ... andal.html">https://www.vulture.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-assault-scandal.html</LINK_TEXT>

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-04-13 5:21 a.m.

Yeah. Disgusting, and at the same time hardly surprising, sadly.

I'll add that some pretty big brass and trombone "heroes" would likely have been involved in the tenure aspects of this (and if not, at least complicit in their silence).

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-13 6:07 p.m.

I find myself wondering where Joe Alessi was on all this from 2010 to 2018. I'll guess he may have been on the tenure committee for Amanda Stewart. The vote was 8 to 1 against her. I'm wondering who the 1 was, and wondering if Alessi had a vote.

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2024-04-13 9:00 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I find myself wondering where Joe Alessi was on all this from 2010 to 2018.[/quote]

I had the same thought.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-04-13 9:13 p.m.

Those in charge should be ashamed.

In the world of music, I can't for the life of me understand why women are given such a hard time in orchestras. Of all the jobs, being a musician is definitely a case where one's gender has zero effect on their ability to do the job as well as anyone else of equal talent. I guess the Me Too movement doesn't apply to symphonies.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-04-13 10:30 p.m.

I think the problem is related to testosterone poisoning and musicians are no more immune to it than anybody else.

It's really nasty when it shows up.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-04-13 10:43 p.m.

A different article from 2022 notes that "27 of its 30 violinists are now women" and at the time women outnumbered men in the whole orchestra.

Makes you wonder lots of things. If any of them had to go through the same hazing. And why Amanda was apparently the only one to stick up for her. Why it wasn't taken seriously by the orchestra, the legal system, or the union which should have protected her but instead protected the perps. And yes, how the tenure vote went.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-13 10:59 p.m.

The union and tenure things really grind my gears. I'd not be a happy dues-paying 802 member at the moment.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-04-13 11:21 p.m.

Well I am a member of 802, not that I ever work there...

It will be interesting to see if and how they react to the article now that it's out there.

And with some of the Broadway pits being largely women now.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-04-14 12:39 a.m.

Years ago, after ASOL (American Symphony Orchestra League) reorganized and renamed itself to LoAO (League of American Orchestras), the sort of assistance it began giving changed radically. Musicians were to be treated as ignorant, squabbling children, not co-workers worthy of respect in a dignified workplace. Contract negotiations became the hostile affairs you read about here. Management is indispensable, and musicians are a dime a dozen. Example - During their last *really* ugly contract talks, Louisville Orchestra management staged a lockout and threatened to hire all new replacement musicians from Craigs List. That sort of crap hasn't worked its way out of the system. When Christian Badea came to Columbus OH, many of the orchestra's principals learned their chairs were being auditioned by reading it in International Musician. Orchestra Management does not have the musicians' best interests at heart. They wish to put an adequate product on stage for the least money possible, and frequently, as in the Badea case, musicians' unions are more interested in green trust fund sheets than employment security and safety. How many interminable rounds of "no decision" auditions do you think are really justified, while an orchestra waits for a specific player to decide to audition?

Kbiggs · 2024-04-14 12:51 a.m.

Kudos and compassion to Kizer and Stewart. I hope Muckey, Wang, and Bloch are held accountable.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-14 1:00 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]A different article from 2022 notes that "27 of its 30 violinists are now women" and at the time women outnumbered men in the whole orchestra.

Makes you wonder lots of things. If any of them had to go through the same hazing. And why Amanda was apparently the only one to stick up for her. Why it wasn't taken seriously by the orchestra, the legal system, or the union which should have protected her but instead protected the perps. And yes, how the tenure vote went.[/quote]

Women don't wonder those things. If its a day of the week that ends in "Y" that stuff is happening everywhere, all at once, all the time.

But we hope it's getting better.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-04-15 7:24 a.m.

Interesting how a post on leadpipes or tuning slides can create hundreds of responses, but not only here but also on other media (FB) the trombone world is so quiet about this.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-04-15 7:34 a.m.

While the facts are impossible to know unless one was actually involved or a bystander, if the audiences are aware of the situation and want a different outcome they might try to withold support and demand accountability with their wallet.

Even if the legal decisions on these past events are set and remain unchanged, it could impact future handling and transparency of similar events. The payments and NDAs are kind of a smoking gun. Where there is smoke, there was a fire.

Lhbone · by **Lhbone** » 2024-04-15 10:12 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]While the facts are impossible to know unless one was actually involved or a bystander, if the audiences are aware of the situation and want a different outcome they might try to withold support and demand accountability with their wallet.

Even if the legal decisions on these past events are set and remain unchanged, it could impact future handling and transparency of similar events. The payments and NDAs are kind of a smoking gun. Where there is smoke, there was a fire.[/quote]

Liang Wang is scheduled to solo with the orchestra May 8-10. Would be a great opportunity for a protest. The program is conducted by none other than Jane Glover. Would love to know her thoughts on this. She obviously must be aware of the rumors around this individual and knew so before accepting this engagement.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-04-15 10:15 a.m.

This is a blight on our entire industry. It's not just the NY Phil, it's not just these two men, and we are all responsible to make the music world a better and safer place at every level, from student to amateur to the highest levels of the profession.

<YOUTUBE id="qNNBahr7jqc">https://youtu.be/qNNBahr7jqc?si=4FYy8TOd81GDXYNm</YOUTUBE>

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-04-15 10:31 a.m.

The statement in that article from an unnamed 802 officer is a disaster, but at the same time I can see why they felt they had to call for independent arbitration when their members protested being fired based on an investigation carried out and paid for entirely by the employer. The bigger mistake in my mind was both the union and the NY Phil agreeing to use that particular arbitrator, who had worked extensively in sports, mostly the NFL (which, for those not in the football-obsessed USA, is notorious for harboring men who abuse women).

Note that the article does tell us that the union and the orchestra have since agreed to change their process - specifically the standard of evidence required - for such matters.

Of course, there is the galling question of where 802 was back in 2011 and 2012 when the tenure decisions were being made...I served on the board of the Boston local for ten years and I hope we would have done better, but I can't know because we never had to face this kind of situation.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-15 11:43 a.m.

George Curran posted yesterday that he opposed the arbitration decision, something I haven't seen from anyone else yet. It was a breath of fresh air.

Lhbone · by **Lhbone** » 2024-04-15 12:25 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]George Curran posted yesterday that he opposed the arbitration decision, something I haven't seen from anyone else yet. It was a breath of fresh air.[/quote]

Didn't the Phil say that as well? I guess it was good for an individual male brass player from the section to re-articulate those words, but I was less moved by his bravery.

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players">https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-misconduct.html#:~:text=“We%20are%20profoundly%20disappointed%20by,ruling%20and%20reinstate%20both%20players</LINK_TEXT>.”

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-15 12:29 p.m.

[quote="Lhbone"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="240543" time="1713195788" user_id="3131">
George Curran posted yesterday that he opposed the arbitration decision, something I haven't seen from anyone else yet. It was a breath of fresh air.[/quote]

Didn't the Phil say that as well? I guess it was good for an individual male brass player from the section to re-articulate those words, but I was less moved by his bravery.

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players">https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-misconduct.html#:~:text=“We%20are%20profoundly%20disappointed%20by,ruling%20and%20reinstate%20both%20players</LINK_TEXT>.”
</QUOTE>

You're right. I just haven't seen anything from anyone else in that orchestra individually about it, including in some milquetoast statements from others in that row.

Lhbone · by **Lhbone** » 2024-04-15 12:32 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Lhbone" post_id="240547" time="1713198353" user_id="7544">

Didn't the Phil say that as well? I guess it was good for an individual male brass player from the section to re-articulate those words, but I was less moved by his bravery.

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players">https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-misconduct.html#:~:text=“We%20are%20profoundly%20disappointed%20by,ruling%20and%20reinstate%20both%20players</LINK_TEXT>.”[/quote]

You're right. I just haven't seen anything from anyone else in that orchestra individually about it, including in some milquetoast statements from others in that row.
</QUOTE>

Good point. I also want to acknowledge that he also mentioned the victims directly by name. Similar to the Seattle musicians post - saying their names directly brings power and validation to what those women went through and makes the message seem like it carries more weight than just blithe "thoughts and prayers".

harrisonreed · 2024-04-15 12:43 p.m.

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players">https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-misconduct.html#:~:text=“We%20are%20profoundly%20disappointed%20by,ruling%20and%20reinstate%20both%20players</LINK_TEXT>.”

[/quote]

"... reinstate and feature them as soloists!"

Let's say this is just imagery, but the official statement brings up an image of, let's say a choir, where an entire row of members have visibly crapped themselves on stage, but only a few members have pointed out the smell as offensive. The organization itself even acknowledges the terrible sight and smell, but allows the offensive choir members to stay, right next to their neighbors, with poopy pants.

Except that is too crazy to ever happen -- no director in their right mind or member of the choir would put up with a neighbor who had crapped their pants, which thankfully is something that can be accidentally done. Imagine if your coworker had done something much more offensive that couldn't be done accidentally.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-15 12:46 p.m.

That's what I don't really understand. There are SO many instances of musicians having small problems with each other and having to change seating arrangements, having rules about how close they can be, using different dressing rooms, you name it. If I were in that section... I'd be calling up my personnel manager and saying "I'm not playing a rehearsal or concert with them on it, thank you!"

Lhbone · by **Lhbone** » 2024-04-15 1:09 p.m.

That brass section has the power and awe of the whole world. They could easily organize a walk out or refuse to play until appropriate changes are made. I don't fully understand how that would work with contracts and the union, but I imagine something could and would change. When Louisville tried to fire its musicians and hire off Craigslist back in the day, there was an agreement amongst the entire community that no one would take "that gig".

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-04-15 1:26 p.m.

[quote="Lhbone"]That brass section has the power and awe of the whole world. They could easily organize a walk out or refuse to play until appropriate changes are made. I don't fully understand how that would work with contracts and the union, but I imagine something could and would change. When Louisville tried to fire its musicians and hire off Craigslist back in the day, there was an agreement amongst the entire community that no one would take "that gig".[/quote]

I think that's the point of the outrage on Reddit and FB. That's the same section (again we don't know who exactly was on the tenure committee(s)) that voted 8 to 1 against Stewart.

If the article is to be believed, those are mostly the same people who did not raise their hands when something started to stink, and Stewart happened to be one of the ones who did raise her hand.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-04-15 4:25 p.m.

[quote="Lhbone"]That brass section has the power and awe of the whole world. They could easily organize a walk out or refuse to play until appropriate changes are made. I don't fully understand how that would work with contracts and the union, but I imagine something could and would change. When Louisville tried to fire its musicians and hire off Craigslist back in the day, there was an agreement amongst the entire community that no one would take "that gig".[/quote]

Well...they would be in clear violation of their contracts in a way that is very difficult to defend.

This is a completely different situation from an organization trying to hire scabs.

The Vulture article mentioned a player who stopped accepting sub gigs from the NY Phil because of this situation. If freelancers agreed not to play there as subs or extras it would make things very difficult for the Philharmonic to operate, but it would also mean a lot of freelancers would be passing up what is certainly one of the best paying gigs in town.

LeTromboniste · 2024-04-15 4:46 p.m.

Re the organization: yes they wanted to fire them and did do "the right thing"...in 2018, after the MeToo movement reached classical music and a few institutions got badly burnt (The Met with Levine, the Montreal Symphony with Dutoit, Cleveland, etc) and others started preemptively cleaning house. Maybe I'm cynical but I see this as motivated by self-preservation, not by a will to do things right. Where had they been during the 8 years prior? They didn't seem to care, except when it came to give hush money to the victim to make her go away while sheltering and keeping the abusers. And since the arbitration? As Harrison points out they not only have their jobs, but they are given opportunities and featured as soloists – Liang Wang is scheduled to be featured in just three weeks...

Re the section (and more broadly the orchestra members): these guys are in the most privileged positions in the brass universe. They've got absolutely no excuse to remain silent. They've got an insane amount of influence, and let's imagine the most extreme scenario,, where they refuse to play or resign in protest. Leaving aside that it's highly doubtful the NY Phil would ever let their whole brass section walk away in block,.does anyone have any doubt that the orchestral world would be fighting for the chance to hire them next?

I am appalled by their complicity (although for at least one of them, it's hardly surprising to me, given their continued and public association with another well-known abuser).

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-04-15 8:55 p.m.

Just popped up on FB:

"DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO GET A JOB IN THE NEW YORK PHILHARMONIC?

I was never able to do it. No women, in fact, have ever held the principal oboe chair there. The orchestra is 181 years old. There’s been quite an anti-woman history, actually, held by owners of that oboe chair. I was actually kind of sort of close once. I played a trial week under Lorin Maazel. It was hell, if I’m to be honest, though I enjoyed playing for Maazel. The English horn player, Thomas Stacy, was an absolute complete dick to me. It was unreal. Later I found out that he slept with his men students. And later than that, a dear student of mine told me how Stacy tried to sleep with him when he was giving a masterclass. Anyway, I didn’t get the job and Liang Wang did. My teacher (and also Liang’s teacher), a Big Fancy Man, called the NYPhil’s personnel manager to find out why I didn’t get the job. I hadn’t asked him to, nor did I want him to, nor did I need him to—I was already a professional with a good job. Anyway, the personnel manager, his buddy for decades, told him they didn’t like my vibrato on tied notes. And so I got a phone call chewing me out about my vibrato on tied notes. And I was sweet to my teacher and thanked him for the call. I hope the NYPhil has been enjoying Liang’s vibrato on tied notes.

But it’s not about me. Most people can’t get a job in the New York Philharmonic. And that’s okay. Let’s talk about some people who *did* get jobs in the New York Philharmonic, Amanda Stewart and Cara Kizer. They were the first and second women to hold tenure-track positions in the brass section at the New York Philharmonic.

The orchestra is often touted as great for women because of some bullshit previous article in the NYTimes saying that there are now more women than men in the orchestra. For those of us who knew this “secret” when that article came out, it rang just as hollow as the recent statement from the Musicians of the New York Philharmonic. The fact is that women are under-represented as leaders there (only 4 principals out of 16, including a second violin, are women), there is only one woman brass player (the third ever, with the first two not getting tenure), and women don’t exist at all in the following sections: bass, clarinet, trumpet, trombone/tuba, and timpani/percussion. The large number of women come from the violin section of 29 players total. I believe just two of those 29 players to be men, including, most tellingly, the concertmaster, the most powerful player in the orchestra. (They’ve never had a woman concertmaster or music director at the NYPhil, either.) It’s funny that New York Magazine and not New York Times finally broke Cara's story. And that the New York Times was focusing on this bullshit, meaningless metric. It’s meaningless because everyone knows—and knew—what is actually acceptable treatment of women at the NYPhil.

Most titled positions in most Big Fancy Orchestras are not hired blindly (like that solo oboe position I referenced.) The mostly likely positions to be filled blindly are indeed section string positions, positions like the ones so many women in the violin section hold. When those people win auditions blindly, they beat out huge numbers of people, representing years and years of personal work, practicing hours upon hours a day since they were small children, and often borrowing and spending tons of money for educations and instruments. When people win auditions which are not blind, it represents similar work and excellence, too. Every person sitting on that stage represents hundreds, if not thousands, of other people in the profession who tried to get there but failed—people like me.

I don’t know if Amanda and Cara’s auditions were blind. But what I do know is that as the first two women in *that* brass section, of all brass sections, they must have presented themselves as absolutely extraordinary candidates. They likely had to do even better than the best men. And for that reason, the way the orchestra threw away their excellence should enrage us all. Alan Gilbert said Amanda didn’t “lay it down enough.” How did she go from everything was great to “serious concerns” within two months? By supporting a rape victim in an absolutely disgusting, misogynist environment, that’s how.

I cannot believe that none of these men, from Gilbert to the Brass Men, had the balls—yes, balls—to call this out. I cannot believe they would all just circle the wagons and oust these women when they knew there was a rape investigation ongoing. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about things other than their playing when presenting themselves for jobs. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about walking alone on a street at night. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about a quid pro quo sexual overture at work. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about walking around a man blocking a stairway. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about how best to react to a man pinching their ass at work. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about how to react to a man grabbing their breasts—or worse—at work. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about how to negotiate a tenure process while being a rape victim.

So, the standard for joining the ranks as a brass player in 2011 at the New York Philharmonic was the following: If you’re a man: you have to play super great and better than thousands of other people. If you’re a woman: you have to play super great and better than thousands of other people and be willing to be raped, or watch other women get raped, and stay silent about it. Women joining the orchestra must be willing to be fucked against their will not just by some trumpet player, but by the whole orchestra. What egregious rot." - Katherine Needleman

dbwhitaker · by **dbwhitaker** » 2024-04-16 10:59 a.m.

Apparently the Vulture article is having a least a little impact:

Philharmonic Sidelines 2 Players It Tried to Fire for Misconduct

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/arts ... =url-share">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-misconduct.html?unlocked_article_code=1.k00.459Y.BFtKfiRJOifA&smid=url-share</LINK_TEXT>

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-04-16 12:04 p.m.

[quote="dbwhitaker"]Apparently the Vulture article is having a least a little impact:

Philharmonic Sidelines 2 Players It Tried to Fire for Misconduct

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/arts ... =url-share">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-misconduct.html?unlocked_article_code=1.k00.459Y.BFtKfiRJOifA&smid=url-share</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

It’s a good first step.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-16 12:16 p.m.

I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-04-16 12:51 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.[/quote]

And there is a multitude of oboists and trumpeters eager to audition for these spots.

(And probably hoping that Gustavo Dudamel will eventually improve the culture of this hallowed institution!)

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-04-16 9:16 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.[/quote]

And yet...Wang was scheduled to play a concerto in a few weeks.

GabrielRice · 2024-04-16 9:20 p.m.

[url=https://theafmobserver.typepad.com/my_weblog/2024/04/omg.html?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3aFsZXS6uJVK8xxcm8BWOlfvQG-LQax-lm02F_JWqpuO6FBnACVshi9PM_aem_AcgXfGN0QUPorSSu3sTeofXY8J2GmYB8O_YxyK_YE5RxU5gL6GrXKdhK9cnd1w93e_Mq7iF70pOk2vc2Z-Ekz6J8]This blog articulates well a lot of thoughts I share about the role of the union in this matter. Due process is important, and I don't think its entirely fair to assume local 802 was defending them per se.

Edit: Apparently it was written by Robert Levine:

Robert Levine has been the principal violist of the Milwaukee Symphony since September 1987. He has also been a member of the Orford Quartet in residence at the University of Toronto, and principal violist of the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra, the Oklahoma City Symphony, and the London (Ontario) Symphony.

Robert is an active chamber musician, having performed at many American and overseas festivals in addition to numerous concerts in the Twin Cities and Milwaukee. He is chairman emeritus of the International Conference of Symphony and Opera Musicians, president of the Milwaukee Musicians Association, Local 8 AFM, and a member of the Board of Directors of the League of American Orchestras. He has also written extensively about issues concerning orchestra musicians for publications of the American Federation of Musicians, the League of American Orchestras, the Symphony Orchestra Institute, and the Association for Union Democracy, as well as for his own blogs. Robert attended Stanford University, the University of Reading (UK), and the Institute for Advanced Musical Studies in Switzerland.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-16 9:28 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="240652" time="1713284215" user_id="3131">
I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.[/quote]

And yet...Wang was scheduled to play a concerto in a few weeks.
</QUOTE>

That may have been in his contract... I know it's not uncommon for principals.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-04-16 9:36 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="240713" time="1713316605" user_id="102">

And yet...Wang was scheduled to play a concerto in a few weeks.[/quote]

That may have been in his contract... I know it's not uncommon for principals.
</QUOTE>

True

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-04-16 11:41 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"][url=https://theafmobserver.typepad.com/my_weblog/2024/04/omg.html?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3aFsZXS6uJVK8xxcm8BWOlfvQG-LQax-lm02F_JWqpuO6FBnACVshi9PM_aem_AcgXfGN0QUPorSSu3sTeofXY8J2GmYB8O_YxyK_YE5RxU5gL6GrXKdhK9cnd1w93e_Mq7iF70pOk2vc2Z-Ekz6J8]This blog articulates well a lot of thoughts I share about the role of the union in this matter. Due process is important, and I don't think its entirely fair to assume local 802 was defending them per se.[/quote]

I agree. It's the union's responsibility to ask for full "due process" for their members. And to accede to the legal consequences. The fly in the ointment in this case was the arbitrator who issued a "binding" decision that was (it seems to me) arbitrary and incorrect, that could not be appealed in spite of (earlier and) later revelations. In any case, it was (is) an ugly turn of events, painful to all involved.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-04-17 12:53 p.m.

I’m going to go out on a limb here by asking a question about complicity:

Is it fair to state that the rest of the brass section are complicit in Amanda Stewart’s dismissal? I ask because assuming someone knows the truth about a situation is not the same as that person actually knowing the truth.

Some of us who are not privy to the NY Phil’s inside workings—including me—have assumed that the rest of the low brass section must have known what was happening. It’s pretty easy to imagine what might have happened. Kizer is assaulted, Muckey lies and denies, Wang lies, denies, and runs interference. Rumors would fly, people would whisper. During the tour, and especially once the orchestra returns to NYC, the tenured members of the orchestra and especially the low brass would know that something extra-musical is happening, but they wouldn’t know what. Various calls to and from HR, the personnel manager, the union, management, the MD. People would see Kizer and Stewart spending more time in the offices of HR, management, etc. Wild assumptions and more rumors would fly.

It’s easy to think, “Well, the rest of the brass section must have known. They work alongside each other almost every day.” How often has something happened to a co-worker that you were not aware of until after the fact? Even when people are some of the best in their field, it doesn’t mean they can’t be influenced by others who are highly adept at using deception and manipulation to achieve their ends.

None of this is meant to excuse anyone for any actions taken. This is only an explanation of what may have happened, given what we do know about human behavior.

Of course, if people in the orchestra knew what happened and voted to deny tenure, then shame on them.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-04-17 1:12 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]I’m going to go out on a limb here by asking a question about complicity:

Is it fair to state that the rest of the brass section are complicit in Amanda Stewart’s dismissal?[/quote]

I guess you should ask that question to Amanda Stewart. Here is a quote from the article:

But within a month, Stewart said, members of the brass section had begun criticizing her support for Kizer.

“How dare a probationary, non-tenured member accuse a tenured member of anything,” Stewart claimed a musician in the brass section told her. At one point during the orchestra’s fall tour in Europe, Stewart took a photo of Muckey moving close to Kizer. Stewart said Alan Baer, the orchestra’s tuba player, saw her take the photo and pulled her aside a few days later.

“‘If you don’t stop supporting her publicly, this is going to harm your tenure,’” Stewart said that Baer warned her. (Three people confirmed that Stewart told them about this conversation at the time. Baer denies he said this to Stewart.)

Around Thanksgiving 2010, an “emergency meeting” was called by members of Stewart’s tenure committee. Though Stewart was traveling, Schiebler called to tell her that “things do not look good” because there were “major concerns” about her playing.

On February 11, Alan Gilbert, the orchestra’s then–music director and conductor, told Stewart that she didn’t “lay it down enough.” She would not be receiving tenure. Stewart says that a member of the tenure committee told her that the vote had gone against her eight to one. She believed that taking the photo in Europe “was the nail in my coffin.”

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-04-17 1:51 p.m.

The blog that Gabe posted a link to implies that being denied tenure is very rare. If so that is an even more damning detail.

Alessi appears to have posted a statement to his FB and then deleted it.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-04-17 2:24 p.m.

There is simply no way they didn't know. Yes we can conceive they might not have known immediately afterwards, and they might never have known as much details as are now public, but there is exactly zero chance they didn't know anything between 2010 and 2018. It seems it was an open secret throughout both the NYC scene and the trumpet scene. I, who has absolutely not the remotest of ties to New York, heard some rumours about it around 2014-16. I can't conceive of any scenario where Alessi et al knew nothing.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-17 2:37 p.m.

[quote="jacobgarchik"]The blog that Gabe posted a link to implies that being denied tenure is very rare. If so that is an even more damning detail.

Alessi appears to have posted a statement to his FB and then deleted it.[/quote]

An AI-generated "statement", even

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-04-17 5:58 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]There is simply no way they didn't know. Yes we can conceive they might not have known immediately afterwards, and they might never have known as much details as are now public, but there is exactly zero chance they didn't know anything between 2010 and 2018. It seems it was an open secret throughout both the NYC scene and the trumpet scene. I, who has absolutely not the remotest of ties to New York, heard some rumours about it around 2014-16. I can't conceive of any scenario where Alessi et al knew nothing.[/quote]

As Harrison noted, Stewart alleges that Alan Baer knew something, and several people corroborate Stewart.

We can all assume that Alessi et al knew something. But—and this is why I’m suggesting caution—we don’t know. We don’t have all the facts.

I agree, it seems almost preposterous that anybody in the NY Phil brass section or even the whole orchestra wasn’t aware. But—it is possible. And we don’t know all the details—why everyone except Stewart chose to speak up about Muckey’s abhorrent behavior.

(Yes, we can argue about the morality of not speaking up in this instance. I will not argue for keeping silent, and would further argue that silence is equal to complicity, perhaps even tacit approval, even when blackmailed—which is what happened to Stewart. But that’s beside the point of who knew what when, and why they decided to vote against tenure for Stewart.)

I have no doubts about what Muckey did—he raped Kizer. Wang is at least complicit, if not more. Hopefully, they will face some consequences.

I’m neither defending nor accusing anyone. I’m only suggesting caution at a time when it’s easy to allow our outrage to cloud reason and facts.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-04-17 6:27 p.m.

Have you been on tour with a band or large ensemble before?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-17 6:37 p.m.

I have a very, very hard time believing anyone was in the dark. Some members of that section that joined after this event have posted that they knew all but the fine details.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-17 7:07 p.m.

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://annemidgette.com/blog/f/an-open ... n6Q8mPv9hN">https://annemidgette.com/blog/f/an-open-letter-to-the-classical-music-field?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0FdbPJFdJCaJ8wp0RcqCIoa8XSjx0KwCs9Ir14vIex1qb1bkgbQGqoZ8Y_aem_AdWN5BcYQxFEujSlI2FhPNvb2BInzGi3uNHuz7Yq5TT2BunQBUtjbCWBHfoDTeTmKbpVIgYOV65goxn6Q8mPv9hN</LINK_TEXT>

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-04-18 12:26 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]Have you been on tour with a band or large ensemble before?[/quote]

Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://annemidgette.com/blog/f/an-open ... n6Q8mPv9hN">https://annemidgette.com/blog/f/an-open-letter-to-the-classical-music-field?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0FdbPJFdJCaJ8wp0RcqCIoa8XSjx0KwCs9Ir14vIex1qb1bkgbQGqoZ8Y_aem_AdWN5BcYQxFEujSlI2FhPNvb2BInzGi3uNHuz7Yq5TT2BunQBUtjbCWBHfoDTeTmKbpVIgYOV65goxn6Q8mPv9hN</LINK_TEXT>

Yes, I’ve read it.

Like I said, I’m going out on a limb, and I know it’s an unpopular opinion. I’m only suggesting that we wait until we all know more.

The NY Phil brass, and perhaps even the entire orchestra, have already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. Anne Midgette’s blog is very convincing, along with a couple of other things I’ve seen in FB rabbit-hole. When we all know more, then we’ll all be more sure.

When more is revealed—and I’m certain we’ll all learn more of the awful, maddening details soon enough—we’ll have the opportunity to figure who knew what, when did they know it, what they did, and why they did it. We’ll have more information to form an opinion/judgment about the behavior of the people who have been revered for their musicianship.

***

Side note: It’s deplorable how humanity has, throughout history, accepted the reprehensible and criminal behavior of some people because they’re artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders. Muckey and Wang… I really don’t know what would be an appropriate punishment for people who drug, rape, and gaslight their colleagues.

And I don’t know what would be an appropriate punishment for people who tacitly accept the deplorable behavior of their colleagues, and then vote to prevent another colleague from gaining tenure simply because they supported their injured colleague (they demonstrated compassion, along with morally and ethically appropriate behavior).

***

When we know more—or rather, when the investigating committee and the police know more—we’ll be able to make appropriate judgments and determine an appropriate punishment.

harrisonreed · 2024-04-18 1:08 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="240796" time="1713392823" user_id="3642">
Have you been on tour with a band or large ensemble before?[/quote]

Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.

</QUOTE>

Right, not talking about that -- that's how it is for most people on tour. Most people act relatively tame. That isn't unique.

I'm talking about how chatty people get on tour.

But to your point, there is simply no way for any of us to really know what happened or what people actually knew. I'd be surprised if the rumors weren't making the rounds, and I'll leave my point at that.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-18 1:18 p.m.

I've been on tour a LOT (though back in the stone age), and there are no secrets on the road.

officermayo · 2024-04-18 1:44 p.m.

One a tour bus, someone in the back seat can fart, and by the time it wafts to the front everyone knows what the perpetrator had for lunch.

The adage "What happens on the road STAYS on the road" is a myth.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-04-18 2:39 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Side note: It’s deplorable how humanity has, throughout history, accepted the reprehensible and criminal behavior of some people because they’re artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders.[/quote]
It's not that they're artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders (or athletes, for that matter). It's that they are perceived as being exceptionally talented - the very best of the very best. Rather than settle for someone infinitesimally less talented, institutions will not only tolerate abhorrent behavior, but will actively seek to cover it up.

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2024-04-30 11:47 a.m.

In a similar vein, did anybody else see the news on Demondrae Thurmon yesterday?

King2bPlus · by **King2bPlus** » 2024-04-30 2:09 p.m.

See the story of Claire Pollack and Demondrae Thurman.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-05-01 8:03 a.m.

Another awful, awful story (and once again just the tip of the iceberg).

The two stories intersected again as Joe Alessi commented "Don't understand how ANYONE would violate the sacred bond between student and teacher" and Claire Pollock called him out on his responsibility, given his unique position of power in the brass world, to kill that culture and create change with action rather than words, instead of continuing to collaborate with known abusers. Claire Pollock is a fearless badass.

I'm curious to know where Alessi's "sacred bond" was when he let his own student get denied tenure as his associate merely for supporting a colleague victim of sexual assault. And I guess, given how he publicly endorsed him as late as last summer, that the "sacred bond" between him and his former student Massimo La Rosa trumped the same "sacred bond" between La Rosa and the students he assaulted or attempted to assault?

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-05-01 9:57 a.m.

[quote="King2bPlus"]See the story of Claire Pollack and Demondrae Thurman.[/quote]

This hurts. I’ve known Demondrae for years… until the last 48hours or so I was looking forward to seeing my friend in a couple of days now. He is obviously no longer welcome in the venue, but it now raises the question for me…. Was any of this happening while I was around? I did not see it, but to point out the obvious, I am not a young woman. Her descriptions of his charisma and fun in public match what I would see, but that next step into the private location was never shown to me… but I’m not the target, am I?

Truly painful to think this could be happening AND be done by somebody I would have thought was out there trying to make the world better. I hope he gets everything he deserves and more for this breach.

Really at a loss here, but I hope in my circles at least we have a much more open and raw conversation about how this happens and how it can be prevented.

Andy

Wilco · by **Wilco** » 2024-05-01 12:31 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Another awful, awful story (and once again just the tip of the iceberg).

The two stories intersected again as Joe Alessi commented "Don't understand how ANYONE would violate the sacred bond between student and teacher" and Claire Pollock called him out on his responsibility, given his unique position of power in the brass world, to kill that culture and create change with action rather than words, instead of continuing to collaborate with known abusers. Claire Pollock is a fearless badass.

I'm curious to know where Alessi's "sacred bond" was when he let his own student get denied tenure as his associate merely for supporting a colleague victim of sexual assault. And I guess, given how he publicly endorsed him as late as last summer, that the "sacred bond" between him and his former student Massimo La Rosa trumped the same "sacred bond" between La Rosa and the students he assaulted or attempted to assault?[/quote]

This is disappointing…. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/iFUzA74epHgb4cdy/?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-05-01 5:23 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]This hurts. I’ve known Demondrae for years… until the last 48hours or so I was looking forward to seeing my friend in a couple of days now. He is obviously no longer welcome in the venue, but it now raises the question for me…. Was any of this happening while I was around? I did not see it, but to point out the obvious, I am not a young woman. Her descriptions of his charisma and fun in public match what I would see, but that next step into the private location was never shown to me… but I’m not the target, am I?[/quote]
Predators are generally really good at "reading the room". They'll start small and gradually escalate until they see people around them getting uncomfortable, then back down a notch or two. Once they've learned where the line is, they'll start working on moving the line. It's a slow process, but predators are very patient. Eventually, an action that was formerly seen as crossing the line begins to be normalized. This is one of the concepts that was part of my annual "Mandated Reporter" training when I was working at a public school.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2024-05-02 3:21 a.m.

John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-05-02 10:08 a.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug[/quote]
I'm not talking about grooming victims (though that's certainly a big part of the equation); I'm talking about how they use similar techniques on the people around them to desensitize them to behavior that would otherwise raise warning flags.

You see a total stranger who is "handsy" and you immediately think it's a little off, but if it's someone you know well (or THINK you know well) who behaves like that with pretty much everyone, you're apt to dismiss it as "just them being them".

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-05-02 12:11 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="240844" time="1713457583" user_id="172">

Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.
[/quote]

Right, not talking about that -- that's how it is for most people on tour. Most people act relatively tame. That isn't unique.

I'm talking about how chatty people get on tour.

But to your point, there is simply no way for any of us to really know what happened or what people actually knew. I'd be surprised if the rumors weren't making the rounds, and I'll leave my point at that.
</QUOTE>

Ah, I get it. I’m one of the people who would hear the rumour last, after everyone else (except the Director or the prof on college tours).

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-05-02 12:27 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="DougHulme" post_id="241912" time="1714634481" user_id="3157">
John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug[/quote]
I'm not talking about grooming victims (though that's certainly a big part of the equation); I'm talking about how they use similar techniques on the people around them to desensitize them to behavior that would otherwise raise warning flags.

You see a total stranger who is "handsy" and you immediately think it's a little off, but if it's someone you know well (or THINK you know well) who behaves like that with pretty much everyone, you're apt to dismiss it as "just them being them".
</QUOTE>
Right. For example, there’s another picture of Demondrae with another woman on the various FB posts. There’s a real good chance that I’m within 25’ of that photo, depending on when it was taken. I know there’s probably a photo of him with his arm around me giving me a kiss on the cheek as well. It was not uncommon. Never saw anything like the twerking mentioned, but plenty of dancing so I don’t doubt it happened later. For myself and probably almost all the others that experienced it… we weren’t the targets, were we? That was it, the extent. We had fun with a charismatic person and then we both left. It had never occurred to me that this ended any other way for others there.

Really struggling with the amount of discussion around “everybody knew” …. The F$&#< ? I didn’t. Not even a hint.

Andy

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-05-02 12:47 p.m.

[quote="Wilco"]

This is disappointing…. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/iFUzA74epHgb4cdy/?[/quote]

Re: my earlier statement about complicity:

The link Wilco shared shows that Alessi was aware (could not have been unaware?) of some of these goings on. He was certainly aware that his former pupil La Rosa was accused of various assaults and affairs, continued to work with him, and make concert appearances with him. And it thus seems much more likely he was aware of Muckey’s repugnant behavior.

A related note:

Disclaimer: I’m not excusing the beavhior of any of perps mentioned. I’m certainly not excusing any of the harrassment that Daemondrae Thurman inflicted on Deni Travis (read the link), or Muckey, or Wang, or any of the “bros” who have assaulated, harrassed, badgered, or “teased” anyone who is not a “bro.”

Having previously worked as a drug and alcohol counselor (in private settings and in community health settings), I’ve heard and seen a lot of shocking, disgusting, and horrible things. One normal human reaction to watching someone harass, badger, pester, even assault someone else is disbelief: “I can’t believe this is happening right in front of my eyes.” It’s the kind of shock where your mind is trying to process that something like this can actually happen, that one human being can actually do something like that to another human being. It’s not that a person can’t believe it. It’s that it’s almost unthinkable that one person would deliberately harm another person. There are many other cognitive and emotional reactions, of course, but shock is one that can make us almost paralyzed with disbelief in these kinds of situations.

That shock, however, is only an explanation for the immediate reaction, as if to say, “I didn’t do anything at first because I couldn’t believe what was happening.” After that initial moment of shock, however, anyone—everyone—who sees it is morally obliged to do something, to intervene, to make it stop.

I get it: it takes courage to intervene in this kind of situation. Also, who wants to get between the bully who is harassing or assaulting someone, and risk personal bodily harm? But if not you, then who?

The type of assault and predatory behavior from some of these “Brass Bros” isn’t always out in public, like Thurman’s twerking. When it is, it only takes one person to call it out to allow others to get over their own shock. When it’s not, we are again morally obliged to help those who need help.

If you see something, say something or do something. Nothing changes if nothing changes.

JohnL · 2024-05-02 9:15 p.m.

And so it begins. Both Liang Wang and Matthew Muckey are have initiated legal action against the NY Phil

<LINK_TEXT text="https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/just-in- ... lharmonic/">https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/just-in-principal-oboe-sues-the-ny-philharmonic/</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/now-matt ... t-ny-phil/">https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/now-matthew-mackey-files-complaint-against-ny-phil/</LINK_TEXT>

I'll go out on a limb and say that, when the dust finally settles (and it's going to be a while), there will be no "winners".

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-02 9:23 p.m.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-05-02 10:13 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Ugh.[/quote]
Yup. But entirely expected.

I don't see how the Phil can bring them back at this point, so the final outcome is probably going to be some sort of payout.

A question for you pros out there, particularly anyone who plays with a big orchestra: Are musicians required to go through sexual harassment training? If so, would such training have been a requirement back in 2010?

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-05-02 11:04 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]A question for you pros out there, particularly anyone who plays with a big orchestra: Are musicians required to go through sexual harassment training? If so, would such training have been a requirement back in 2010?[/quote]

I think some of that might be starting at the big orchestras, but I've never had to do any kind of sexual harassment training for orchestras where I am a member. I HAVE had to do it, however, for teaching jobs, and most orchestra players do at least some teaching.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-05-03 1:17 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]I HAVE had to do it, however, for teaching jobs, and most orchestra players do at least some teaching.[/quote]
I should have thought of that; I know Liang Wang was on the faculty at The Manhattan School

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-05-03 4:19 a.m.

To me this looks like a long-required clean-up. Probably most (male) trombonists have been thinking if they have any turf in this. I for myself have definitely had these thoughts and while I luckily have never been that near to such a situation, I have certainly not always been a perfect rolemodel. For me the benefit is that I am questionning myself and try to improve. E.g. I REALLY try to get more females involved in ensemble projects that I do.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-05-03 8:11 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]And so it begins. Both Liang Wang and Matthew Muckey are have initiated legal action against the NY Phil

<LINK_TEXT text="https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/just-in- ... lharmonic/">https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/just-in-principal-oboe-sues-the-ny-philharmonic/</LINK_TEXT>

<LINK_TEXT text="https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/now-matt ... t-ny-phil/">https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/now-matthew-mackey-files-complaint-against-ny-phil/</LINK_TEXT>

I'll go out on a limb and say that, when the dust finally settles (and it's going to be a while), there will be no "winners".[/quote]
Sadly, the only way this doesn’t end with the abusers getting a large payout is for somebody else to come forward. Then they could fire them for cause again and go through arbitration again with the new evidentiary standard and hopefully get a reasonable result.

That said, I’d bet on a payout here. Any halfway competent lawyer should be able to get that here.

Ugh.

Andy

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-05-03 8:25 a.m.

Litigation, schmitigation.

In addition to having two daughters (one is a business woman - the other has a degree in performance and works professionally) and a granddaughter, I've worked with several female trombonists over the last 50+ years. Being an old school Jarhead, I'm pretty sure if anyone sexually harrased or assaulted one of my girls, the only litigation would be me being charged with aggregated assault at the least. Ignoring this wretched behavior is tantamount to actually participating in it. Time has long past for men to take a stand and be prepared for the consequences.

Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-05-03 9:52 a.m.

[quote="officermayo"]Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.[/quote]

This is not an issue of "things were better in the old days." They were not.

I don't have time to go into more detail. Ask a woman, any woman.

JoeStanko · by **JoeStanko** » 2024-05-03 10:15 a.m.

One of my sisters is a well known criminologist in the UK. This article is about one of her studies:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/m ... tsy-stanko">https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/mar/07/one-womans-mission-to-fix-how-the-police-investigate-rape-operation-soteria-betsy-stanko</LINK_TEXT>

OneTon · 2024-05-03 10:23 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="242007" time="1714739122" user_id="12380">
Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.[/quote]

This is not an issue of "things were better in the old days." They were not.

I don't have time to go into more detail. Ask a woman, any woman.
</QUOTE>

Take a look at the legend of Phryne, the woman who won court cases by baring her breasts. I am making no comparison of the women involved in the NY Philharmonic scandal. Phryne is a prime example of how sex and money have been driving the judicial system at least since 371 BCE. Human nature has not changed. Justice hasn’t been blind for a long time.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-05-03 10:43 a.m.

[quote="OneTon"]

Take a look at the legend of Phyrne, the woman who won court cases by baring her breasts. I am making no comparison of the women involved in the NY Philharmonic scandal. Phyrne is a prime example of how sex and money have been driving the judicial system at least since 371 BCE. Human nature has not changed. Justice hasn’t been blind for a long time.[/quote]

This may be the most bizarre post I've ever seen in this forum.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-05-03 10:51 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="242012" time="1714746214" user_id="13549">

Take a look at the legend of Phyrne, the woman who won court cases by baring her breasts. I am making no comparison of the women involved in the NY Philharmonic scandal. Phyrne is a prime example of how sex and money have been driving the judicial system at least since 371 BCE. Human nature has not changed. Justice hasn’t been blind for a long time.[/quote]

This may be the most bizarre post I've ever seen in this forum.
</QUOTE>

Yeah...what in the world are you talking about???

OneTon · 2024-05-03 11:34 a.m.

Boeing had a signed contract to pay the medical insurance btween ange 59 and 65 for engineers over a specified age if the engineer retired before 65. After Boeing divested what became Spirit, Boeing renigged. The engineers’ union got five affected engineers to file a class action lawsuit. Boeing drug out the litigation 13 years. The presiding judge admonished Boeing’s attorneys after 4 or 5 years when the number of pages of briefs exceeded 4000. When Boeing decided they had kicked the crap out of the union long enough, Boeing settled for about $0.25 on the dollar. It wasn’t about the money.

Many of the posts on this thread are naive. Powerhouses like Boeing drag out litigation. The NY Phil might settle out. If they do it will likely be a travesty. The message that an organization is sending to the 802 is that the 802 can’t tell them what to do.

Phryne may have been defined by libertine behavior. She was also the privileged daughter of the powerful and presumably wealthy Greek elite. Violence is not the answer It makes things worse. If anything, it fuels the problem. The best hope for long term change is liberal arts education that promotes ethical behavior, as in studying and understanding Phryne.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-05-03 11:36 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="242007" time="1714739122" user_id="12380">
Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.[/quote]

This is not an issue of "things were better in the old days." They were not.

I don't have time to go into more detail. Ask a woman, any woman.
</QUOTE>

I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-05-03 11:44 a.m.

I am such a fool. In spite of my cynicism, the fact of women finding more employment opportunities and having a day in court, however jaundiced by harsh reality, shows incremental progress. We should not give up hope.

DougHulme · by **DougHulme** » 2024-05-03 12:33 p.m.

Joe Stanko wrote

One of my sisters is a well known criminologist in the UK. This article is about one of her studies

Joe I never made the 'Stanko' connection, I have long admired her work and have listened to what she says for many years.

The article is chilling in the light of the present discussion and her historical personal experience... Doug

JoeStanko · by **JoeStanko** » 2024-05-03 1:05 p.m.

[quote="DougHulme"]Joe Stanko wrote <QUOTE>One of my sisters is a well known criminologist in the UK. This article is about one of her studies[/quote]

Joe I never made the 'Stanko' connection, I have long admired her work and have listened to what she says for many years.

The article is chilling in the light of the present discussion and her historical personal experience... Doug
</QUOTE>

Doug, Betsy's earned some serious creds: <LINK_TEXT text="https://empowerinnocent.wixsite.com/web ... gical-bias">https://empowerinnocent.wixsite.com/website/post/operation-soteria-betsy-stanko-and-the-dangers-of-ideological-bias</LINK_TEXT>

..yet, we're not above doing some Curly woob woob woob when we get together..after all, she has a brother who plays trombone..

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-03 1:10 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]

I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.[/quote]

Again, wrong. This has been happening forever. It's only now that women have barely been able to speak up about it and now we KNOW about it.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-03 1:11 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]I am such a fool. In spite of my cynicism, the fact of women finding more employment opportunities and having a day in court, however jaundiced by harsh reality, shows incremental progress. We should not give up hope.[/quote]

I'm super, duper unsure of the point you're trying to make here.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-05-03 1:55 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="242022" time="1714750613" user_id="12380">

I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.[/quote]

Again, wrong. This has been happening forever. It's only now that women have barely been able to speak up about it and now we KNOW about it.
</QUOTE>

Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-03 1:56 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]

Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.[/quote]

It's getting worse only because we're aware of it. It's been worse in the past.

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2024-05-03 2:43 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="242022" time="1714750613" user_id="12380">

I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.[/quote]

Again, wrong. This has been happening forever. It's only now that women have barely been able to speak up about it and now we ARE NEITHER WILLING NOR ABLE (at least some of us) TO IGNORE IT ANY LONGER.
</QUOTE>

FTFY.

I agree that things haven't (necessarily) gotten worse, but even in the 1980s, when I was an undergrad (non-music) at a small college (mayyyyy-be 1200 FTE students), it was an open secret that the music faculty were warning female music majors on the QT against accepting invitations to lessons or private coaching from certain male conductors and players of high profile orchestras and soloists when they visited campus for recitals, masterclasses, etc. due to their reputation for engaging in certain "extra curricular activities": activities that, if true, would have gotten a college employee fired and banned from setting foot on campus … only the college admin was willing to turn a blind eye and deaf ear because of the "status" conferred by association with those individuals.

Lhbone · by **Lhbone** » 2024-05-03 2:49 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="242040" time="1714758906" user_id="12380">

Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.[/quote]

It's getting worse only because we're aware of it. It's been worse in the past.
</QUOTE>

This ^. Thank you, Aidan. Thinking things are worse now than they used to be is a sign of “ignorance is bliss”, a privilege only a male can have in this (and most other) field(s).

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-05-03 3:10 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="242023" time="1714751076" user_id="13549">
I am such a fool. In spite of my cynicism, the fact of women finding more employment opportunities and having a day in court, however jaundiced by harsh reality, shows incremental progress. We should not give up hope.[/quote]

I'm super, duper unsure of the point you're trying to make here.
</QUOTE>
I am a fool because some things are getting better for female players: More women are playing brass intruments. The courts are being abused by big money. A long time ago women were treated like chattel. Now women have a right to vote and access to regress in a court of law, even if big money has a thumb on Lady Justice’ scale.

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2024-05-03 3:24 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="officermayo" post_id="242040" time="1714758906" user_id="12380">

Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.[/quote]

It's getting worse only because we're aware of it. It's been worse in the past.
</QUOTE>

Indeed. As former Associate Justice of the Supreme Court Louis Brandies, reflecting on "the wickedness of people shielding wrongdoers & passing them off (or at least allowing them to pass themselves off) as honest men," observed,

If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects." [Letters of Louis D. Brandeis, Feb. 26, 1891. (Albany: State University of New York Press, 1971), p. 100.]

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-05-03 3:32 p.m.

This thread took a confusing turn - "*now* women have the right to vote". Women have had the vote (at least some of them) for 100 years. The recent difference I think is more about the access to far reaching communication, and people actually listening to women.

And they're only listening to women of a certain pedigree. If this happened at a local convenience store, it wouldn't be in a magazine and nobody would care. It's gross. We have so far to go.

Aspenforest · by **Aspenforest** » 2024-05-03 4:46 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"][/quote]
<ATTACHMENT filename="33d.gif" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~33d.gif</ATTACHMENT>

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2024-05-03 5:09 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]This thread took a confusing turn - "*now* women have the right to vote". Women have had the vote (at least some of them) for 100 years. The recent difference I think is more about the access to far reaching communication, and people actually listening to women.

And they're only listening to women of a certain pedigree. If this happened at a local convenience store, it wouldn't be in a magazine and nobody would care. It's gross. We have so far to go.[/quote]

I think Richard's point is that roughly 100 years ago, women did not have the right to vote, so securing that right is a step forward. A small step, yes; but a step nonetheless. (Let's not forget that the same signatories of the Declaration of Independence who claimed that they held "these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" but explicitly denied both women and Blacks those rights, or that Blacks—and other minorities—were only enfranchised in 1965.)

Do we still have far to go? Unquestionably. And the sooner we get there, the better. But don't pretend that because (some) women secured the franchise a century ago it's somehow irrelevant to the current discussion.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-03 5:10 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="242034" time="1714756263" user_id="3131">

I'm super, duper unsure of the point you're trying to make here.[/quote]
I am a fool because some things are getting better for female players: More women are playing brass intruments. The courts are being abused by big money. A long time ago women were treated like chattel. Now women have a right to vote and access to regress in a court of law, even if big money has a thumb on Lady Justice’ scale.
</QUOTE>

Again, I have to ask... What is your point?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-05-03 6:03 p.m.

[quote="sungfw"]But don't pretend that because (some) women secured the franchise a century ago it's somehow irrelevant to the current discussion.[/quote]

It's hard to see how it is relevant. Certainly none of the women I know were even born when the general right to vote was an issue. Neither were their parents. It *was* great progress. But so what? Are we supposed to be satisfied with progress made in the now nearly ancient past? We have fish that are just as big that we need to fry now.

What exactly is the point that makes the right to vote being secured 100 years ago remotely relevant here?

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-05-03 6:25 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="241986" time="1714702412" user_id="119">
A question for you pros out there, particularly anyone who plays with a big orchestra: Are musicians required to go through sexual harassment training? If so, would such training have been a requirement back in 2010?[/quote]

I think some of that might be starting at the big orchestras, but I've never had to do any kind of sexual harassment training for orchestras where I am a member. I HAVE had to do it, however, for teaching jobs, and most orchestra players do at least some teaching.
</QUOTE>

We had to do it for the Broadway Organizations we work for plus DEI. training as well.

sungfw · by **sungfw** » 2024-05-03 7:57 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="sungfw" post_id="242067" time="1714770587" user_id="3533">
But don't pretend that because (some) women secured the franchise a century ago it's somehow irrelevant to the current discussion.[/quote]

It's hard to see how it is relevant. Certainly none of the women I know were even born when the general right to vote was an issue. Neither were their parents. It *was* great progress. But so what? Are we supposed to be satisfied with progress made in the now nearly ancient past? We have fish that are just as big that we need to fry now.

What exactly is the point that makes the right to vote being secured 100 years ago remotely relevant here?
</QUOTE>

If you can't see the relevance of the analogy, I'm not going to waste time and energy spelling it out for you.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig." – Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

Aspenforest · by **Aspenforest** » 2024-05-03 11:53 p.m.

[quote="sungfw"]<ATTACHMENT filename="2nmuyz.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~2nmuyz.jpg</ATTACHMENT>[/quote]

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-05-03 11:58 p.m.

I respect Officer Mayo’s opinions even if I don’t endorse his

solution. I have experienced frustration with bad behavior. I can empathize. I would recommend that this thread would be an excellent candidate for closure by an administrator.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-04 1:16 a.m.

What? Why?

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-05-04 7:51 a.m.

Nothing here is really that contentious and so far is appropo to the subject at hand. Although some comments do seem… orthogonal.

The protections that are afforded to professors, union members, etc. are a double edge sword to some degree here. The issue is that they very much favor incumbents, and historically that has been not a particularly diverse pool of people, so it’s easy for sub-cultures to blossom in absence of tangible repercussions, or worse, for repercussions for outing reprehensible behavior (which seems to have been prevalent in the NYP for a long time).

With that said, it isn’t obvious to me that unions and tenure should be allowed to protect members accused of misconduct of this nature. It’ll hurt protections but it might be less bad than having lawsuits handle policy because that can be very unpredictable.

Also, sexual harassment training is an absolute joke everywhere I’ve worked and meant to tick compliance boxes. It is not evident to me that a 45 minute training video would have prevented this situation.

OneTon · 2024-05-04 8:54 a.m.

Matt’s comments are on target. I apologize if the reference to Phryne caused anyone to be unable to focus on the issue presented. Whether she did it or whether it is a fictitious legend, the story pointed to legacy problems in the court. Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now. By the way, the University of Tulsa had a professor that was rumored to have terminated his first marriage and actively working on termination of his second marriage by what would be characterized now as predatory behavior. When the building opened up one morning, around 1974, a pile of human feces was discovered right in front of the door to his studio.

calcbone · by **calcbone** » 2024-05-04 8:58 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]

Also, sexual harassment training is an absolute joke everywhere I’ve worked and meant to tick compliance boxes. It is not evident to me that a 45 minute training video would have prevented this situation.[/quote]

Absolutely. As a public school teacher, I have to watch a few dozen compliance videos every year on a wide variety of “ethics” topics—test security, sexual harassment, rules about restraining students…as well as what to do in a lockdown, and now they’ve added some on how not to fall for email phishing schemes as well. I’ve learned very little from them, aside from school-specific policies.

The majority of that content, indeed, is there to check a box and to ensure that there is no plausible deniability when someone breaks one of those rules. I understand the legal reason for them, but it’s much like “do not use in the bathtub” written on a hair dryer.

Additionally, the people who would break those rules will not be persuaded by a compliance video, nor will company policy be the first thing on their mind when they see their next mark. As another comment pointed out, they are very good at gradually moving the line of what is considered the “norm” or “acceptable” which will make others question whether the behavior they see is even worth reporting.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-04 11:30 a.m.

[quote="OneTon"]Matt’s comments are on target. I apologize if the reference to Phryne caused anyone to be unable to focus on the issue presented. Whether she did it or whether it is a fictitious legend, the story pointed to legacy problems in the court. Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now.[/quote]

Again, I have to ask (without malice- please understand) what your point is that you are trying to raise.

Also, no.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-05-04 12:07 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="242109" time="1714827294" user_id="13549">
Matt’s comments are on target. I apologize if the reference to Phryne caused anyone to be unable to focus on the issue presented. Whether she did it or whether it is a fictitious legend, the story pointed to legacy problems in the court. Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now.[/quote]

Again, I have to ask (without malice- please understand) what your point is that you are trying to raise.

Also, no.
</QUOTE>

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-04 12:11 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.[/quote]

This part:

"Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now."

Again, things only appear worse because those that didn't know (more likely, didn't want to know) are now forced to see what has been happening for... ever.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-05-04 12:13 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="242131" time="1714838829" user_id="7573">

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.[/quote]

This part:

"Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now."

Again, things only appear worse because those that didn't know (more likely, didn't want to know) are now forced to see what has been happening for... ever.
</QUOTE>

Ahh yes. Agreed. Thx.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-05-04 1:02 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="242131" time="1714838829" user_id="7573">

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.[/quote]

This part:

"Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now."

Again, things only appear worse because those that didn't know (more likely, didn't want to know) are now forced to see what has been happening for... ever.
</QUOTE>

Your statement regarding awareness could be true. Officer Mayo’s statement could also be true. The statements may not be mutually exclusive. Factors such as greater access to drugs by predators could make things worse for women. Behavior scientists study this stuff and even they may argue among themselves. The fact that you have asked the question, “What’s your point?” multiple times may be an indication that this forum isn’t a robust process for discussing this topic, at least for me, with my limited education and vocabulary skills. So I am choosing to decline your invitation, without malice. Cheers.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-04 1:22 p.m.

Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-05-04 2:40 p.m.

[quote="sungfw"]

If you can't see the relevance of the analogy, I'm not going to waste time and energy spelling it out for you.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig." – Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love[/quote]

I don't know if it was intended, but that comes off as pretty insulting. This is a wonderful thread. I do NOT want to see it closed because of you. Please be kinder.

Aspenforest · by **Aspenforest** » 2024-05-04 3:01 p.m.

It isn't a matter of coulds and what-ifs. It's been historically difficult for us as women to be able to speak out or even be taken seriously and treating the issue with this semi-cavalier attitude of "Oh maybe X is true, or Y is true," is honestly a little insulting. I feel as though it feeds back into those pervading attitudes that got us into the current situation with the NYP. This IS happening and HAS been happening for years... at least now there's some little attempts at accountability.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-05-04 3:08 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.[/quote]

It’s little disappointing that this isn’t the dominant sentiment in this thread.

Aspenforest · by **Aspenforest** » 2024-05-04 3:34 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="242138" time="1714843365" user_id="3131">
Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.[/quote]

It’s little disappointing that this isn’t the dominant sentiment in this thread.
</QUOTE>

Agreed!!!!

bitbckt · by **bitbckt** » 2024-05-04 4:02 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="242138" time="1714843365" user_id="3131">
Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.[/quote]

It’s little disappointing that this isn’t the dominant sentiment in this thread.
</QUOTE>

“As a father/husband of daughters/wives” is the “thoughts and prayers” of sexual assault... :roll:

It is astonishing - but sadly not surprising- how many men delude themselves about this topic.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-05-04 5:54 p.m.

Just checked the stats. Pretty sure 2023 stats would be even higher. But of course I must be wrong (again) and it's not getting worse.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-05-04 5:55 p.m.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/c ... by%2023%25">https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/campus-sexual-assault-statistics/#:~:text=While%20reports%20of%20all%20types,college%20campuses%20rose%20by%2023%25</LINK_TEXT>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-04 6:08 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]Just checked the stats. Pretty sure 2023 stats would be even higher. But of course I must be wrong (again) and it's not getting worse.[/quote]

Yes, that's reported assaults, something that will go up when women feel safer reporting (which has been the case, ever so slowly).

Gfunk · by **Gfunk** » 2024-05-04 6:30 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]Just checked the stats. Pretty sure 2023 stats would be even higher. But of course I must be wrong (again) and it's not getting worse.[/quote]

I mean this with no malice, but I think you’re missing the point. The source you’ve shared is based on the reported cases (which is the currently the only way to quantify it I know of). But this is only discussing *reported* cases. It does not speak to the actual number of instances of sexual assault. The reason the reported cases increased is because in recent years women feel they are able to share safely. Sexual assault of women has been going on for a very long time and is now is just more visible and discussed. The growth in reported cases shows us that more people are able to talk about it, not that it is getting worse.

Even if the truth may be that it’s getting worse (which I don’t believe and is functionally irrelevant), we need to support women however they need it. That doesn’t mean referring to them as a statistical problem (which I am not suggesting is happening here). It means talking to women, listening to them, believing them, and being someone on their team when it matters. This discussion of the NY Phil and Demandre Thurman has not put enough emphasis on the immense harm caused by bystanders. People knew what was going on and chose to say nothing because it was easier than saying something. Men need to stop protecting other men and hold each other accountable. I hope going forward more men are able to put women’s safety and basic rights as a human above their potential discomfort in holding accountable the awful men who continue to sexually assault women or harm them in any other context. Women deserve better.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-05-04 6:43 p.m.

I give up.

I very clearly stated that it appears these cases are on the rise. I was told I was wrong (twice).

I was told they've been going on forever. I already knew that and didn't refute that fact.

I being told my statement is irrelevant because:

I'm not a woman

The increase in reported cases (which is most likely miniscule compared to assaults that happen and go unreported) is a figment of my imagination.

It just SEEMS like it's on the rise because of social media.

I'll bow out of this discussion since what I say (based on 12 years working in law enforcement) appears to fall on deaf ears.

Enjoy the echo chamber, y'all.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-04 6:47 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]I give up.

I very clearly stated that it appears these cases are on the rise. I was told I was wrong (twice).

I was told they've been going on forever. I already knew that and didn't refute that fact.

I being told my statement is irrelevant because:

I'm not a woman

The increase in reported cases (which is most likely miniscule compared to assaults that happen and go unreported) is a figment of my imagination.

It just SEEMS like it's on the rise because of social media.

I'll bow out of this discussion since what I say (based on 12 years working in law enforcement) appears to fall on deaf ears.

Enjoy the echo chamber, y'all.[/quote]

Again... the point is moot. It doesn't matter.

We need to be better allies to women, not state statistics- again, why even bring them up?

bitbckt · by **bitbckt** » 2024-05-14 11:21 a.m.

News from DCI: <LINK_TEXT text="https://cadets.org/cadets-arts-entertai ... bankruptcy">https://cadets.org/cadets-arts-entertainment-cae-files-bankruptcy</LINK_TEXT>

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-05-14 1:59 p.m.

[quote="bitbckt"]News from DCI: <LINK_TEXT text="https://cadets.org/cadets-arts-entertai ... bankruptcy">https://cadets.org/cadets-arts-entertainment-cae-files-bankruptcy</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
DCI in the early 1980's. I marched in '79 and part of the 1980 season in a small corps on the west coast. Heard lots of rumors about what went on in other groups; back then (I was 15-16 at the time) I figured that some of it was just people smearing their competition. In our own group, we had an instructor openly dating a member (not sure if she was a minor at the point; she was a senior in high school and her parents had full knowledge of the situation) and a middle-aged executive/instructor living with a 20-something guard instructor; she had formerly been a member of another corps at the same time he was on the staff.

Such things aren't isolated to DCI. The sad truth is that youth organizations, as with schools and churches, have always been fertile hunting grounds for predators. Not only are there plenty of potential victims, but the leaders of those organizations frequently take steps to "protect the organization" - which means protecting the predator as well.

I'm going to make a prediction. A group of alumni and parents (possibly joined by some current and/or former staff) will be formed and will attempt to revive the organization. If they can get their act together quickly enough, they'll try to purchase the Cadets' assets as part of the bankruptcy process.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-05-19 11:23 p.m.

Sexual harassment has been happening for as long as there have been people. Images such as the caveman dragging his female "conquest" by the hair were perfectly acceptable in generations past. (Infact, Such images were not uncommon in the weekend cartoons in the newspapers in Australia, when I was growing up, and I am only 55.) The TV series Mad Men describes a society where women were routinely objectified. It was not acceptable for women to protest at that time, for fear of losing their jobs. They had to "grin and bear it". I would like to think that today's society is more enlightened, but there are still many men who want to objectify women, and maintain the archaic patriarchy of yesteryear. Men need to do better.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2024-11-04 7:37 p.m.

Karma caught up with these guys:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts ... Position=1">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-misconduct.html?searchResultPosition=1</LINK_TEXT>

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-11-04 9:50 p.m.

Ridiculous it took this long. Harassment of this nature should be firable the same day as its reported, as it would be in my non-union workplace.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-11-04 9:57 p.m.

And they still get paid through the end of this year.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-11-05 3:24 a.m.

The story isn't over yet. There's the possibility of all kinds of civil lawsuits. Wang and/or Muckey might sue the orchestra for wrongful termination. They might also sue the union because it removed it's support. Depending on the timeline, there could be lawsuits against Wang and/or Muckey for harassment or against the Phil for a hostile work environment

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-11-05 6:12 a.m.

Is there something that the people here could do to effectuate change? I'm not in the union since I'm in a different profession, so I have little insight into the inner workings. Seems like this should be a no brainer to strip these forms of protections with the aim of preventing this type of thing in the future, or perhaps even going more aggressive and actively putting roadblocks in the way of people being able to sue for these types of things.

boneberg · by **boneberg** » 2024-11-05 6:27 a.m.

[quote="Cmillar"]Karma caught up with these guys:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts ... Position=1">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-misconduct.html?searchResultPosition=1</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

"Karma"? :idk:

What about justice?

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2024-11-05 3:55 p.m.

[quote="boneberg"]<QUOTE author="Cmillar" post_id="257711" time="1730767036" user_id="3134">
Karma caught up with these guys:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts ... Position=1">https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-sexual-misconduct.html?searchResultPosition=1</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]

"Karma"? :idk:

What about justice?
</QUOTE>

For sure....I hope these guys end up having to sell their instruments.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-08-19 11:21 a.m.

Sorry to dredge up this disgusting old thread, but more details came out in an article on August 8th of this year.

https://archive.is/9mKE2

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2025-08-19 6:21 p.m.

Dana, your link goes nowhere.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2025-08-19 6:37 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Dana, your link goes nowhere.[/quote]
It worked for me, but try this one:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.vulture.com/article/new-yor ... abuse.html">https://www.vulture.com/article/new-york-philharmonic-scandal-court-filings-pattern-of-abuse.html</LINK_TEXT>

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-08-20 1:29 p.m.

I read through the whole investigator's reports when they became public a few months ago.

Muckey comes off as a kind of banal regular dude who was a really immature "bro" and was clueless about professionalism, boundaries or consent. A reflection both of rape culture in general and or some of the really toxic traits of the music world and in particular the brass world. Possibly might have matured/learned (to what extent is not really clear). Reading the report made me extremely angry.

Wang comes off as an actual sociopath. Reading the report didn't just make me angry, it was extremely difficult to even finish reading it. Really incredibly disturbing stuff, deeply evil behaviour, consistently and repeatedly.

But I honestly don't know what's more frightening, that someone like Wang appears to be in the reports can be in such position of power, or that our culture is so messed up that raping a colleague is well within the spectrum of what someone far more "normal", a "regular" dude with a (mis)understanding of boundaries and consent that is not really exceptional, can apparently be expected to do.

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2025-08-21 6:25 a.m.

Katherine Needleman has plenty to say, as you'd expect.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://katherineneedlemanoboist.substa ... cara-kizer">https://katherineneedlemanoboist.substack.com/p/directly-from-cara-kizer</LINK_TEXT>

It's hard to argue with any of that. E.g. Joe Alessi is a fabulous trombonist, but from what I can see appears to be a terrible person given his part in Kizer and Stuart's ostrasiation.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2025-08-21 6:47 a.m.

Some of the indidivuals have been vocal to a degree, but I also find it really disappointing how little leading people positioned themselves in this. Either they don't care, they are afraid of reactions they might get or in the worst case they have been closer or more closely informed about the events that they fear to get burnt themselves.

I watched this quite a bit and learned for myself to pay much more attention to what is happening around me.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-08-23 9:29 p.m.

There aren't many organizations geared to give priority to people NOT in the organization.

These two players are still on the payroll but not being used in performances, as the NYP is not allowed to fire them yet, right?

I'm curious about this passage...

The orchestra moved to dismiss both men through a clause in their contracts that provided for “non-reengagement” even though they have tenure. It was such an unusual move that Local 802 of the American Federation of Musicians, which represents the orchestra’s players, asked the Philharmonic to confirm that it would not use this process to get around tenure protections in the future

So there's a clause that allows the orchestra to fire them... but it's never been used... but it can be used... but it's not clear when it can be used...

What does that clause really say?

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-08-24 4:53 a.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]There aren't many organizations geared to give priority to people NOT in the organization.

These two players are still on the payroll but not being used in performances, as the NYP is not allowed to fire them yet, right?

I'm curious about this passage...

<QUOTE>The orchestra moved to dismiss both men through a clause in their contracts that provided for “non-reengagement” even though they have tenure. It was such an unusual move that Local 802 of the American Federation of Musicians, which represents the orchestra’s players, asked the Philharmonic to confirm that it would not use this process to get around tenure protections in the future[/quote]

So there's a clause that allows the orchestra to fire them... but it's never been used... but it can be used... but it's not clear when it can be used...

What does that clause really say?
</QUOTE>

They will be off the payroll on September 21. They're technically not getting fired, they're "not reengaged".

I haven't seen the exact language of the clause, but from what I've read, essentially the clause allows the orchestra to give notice to players, before February 15, of their intention not to reengage them the next season, when non-reengagement is an "appropriate" measure under the labor agreement (rather than "firing", which has to be "for cause"). The non-reengagement only takes effect on the first day of the next season after notice is given. (hence the delayed "firing" to September of this year despite the decision having been announced already a year ago). Looks to me like a lower standard than required for firing, but giving the players anywhere between 7 and 18 months notice, giving them more time to react. Players also have a right to contest the decision and to request arbitration through their union. In this case the union declined to ask for arbitration, and accepted the orchestra's decision.

That seems to be the context of the union asking guarantees from the orchestra. Reading between the lines a bit, it looks like they were asked by their members (and other orchestra players) to not contest the orchestra's decision, and not go for arbitration, but before agreeing to the decision, they wanted guarantees that the previously never-used (?) clause wouldn't be abused and used in ways that undermines the labor agreement and the tenure process.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-08-24 11:44 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]...when non-reengagement is an "appropriate" measure under the labor agreement[/quote]

"Appropriate" is such a vague concept. :idk:

According to the story this is all still in the pre-trial filing stage so technically... they could still win back their jobs.

I presume a George Costanza defense, "Was that wrong? If I anyone had told me that drugging and raping a co-worker was against company policy..."

We don't know if there WAS an NY Phil HR policy on this sort of thing, do we?

I predict a settlement between the parties before a trial begins.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2025-08-24 6:31 p.m.

I predict neither one will ever get a job in this business again, at least in the US.

robcat2075 · by **robcat2075** » 2025-08-24 8:03 p.m.

Yes, the US is unlikely for them.

But remember that trombone guy we were all in a lather about a couple years ago... he landed on his feet in Europe. It can be done.

Wang was born and grew up in China. I bet he will find something to do there or in nearby realms.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2025-08-28 1:01 p.m.

(Spoiler alert) The weakest part of the Tar movie (apart from Cate Blanchett's conducting) was how she ends up conducting a gamer concert. There's always somewhere that will hire performers from that level, no matter the offence.

chromebone · by **chromebone** » 2025-08-28 3:00 p.m.

[quote="robcat2075"]Yes, the US is unlikely for them.

But remember that trombone guy we were all in a lather about a couple years ago... he landed on his feet in Europe. It can be done.

Wang was born and grew up in China. I bet he will find something to do there or in nearby realms.[/quote]

Wang may get a job in China, but Muckey is American. I assume the trombonist you are referring to that people were getting in “a lather” as you put it, about, was Massimo LaRosa, who was fired from the Cleveland Orchestra for sexually harassing and also assaulting female students. That’s as good as any a reason to get into a lather over something. He was from Italy and basically got a job in his hometown orchestra. I guess his people were looking out for him.

Muckey is unemployable in the music industry, he will never work as a trumpet player again, just as LaRosa’s colleague in Cleveland, William Preucil, a far more well known and high profile musician, who was fired at the same time for the same reason, will never work again as a violinist.

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2025-08-28 7:53 p.m.

[quote="chromebone"]<QUOTE author="robcat2075" post_id="284172" time="1756080229" user_id="3697">
Yes, the US is unlikely for them.

But remember that trombone guy we were all in a lather about a couple years ago... he landed on his feet in Europe. It can be done.

Wang was born and grew up in China. I bet he will find something to do there or in nearby realms.[/quote]

Wang may get a job in China, but Muckey is American. I assume the trombonist you are referring to that people were getting in “a lather” as you put it, about, was Massimo LaRosa, who was fired from the Cleveland Orchestra for sexually harassing and also assaulting female students. That’s as good as any a reason to get into a lather over something. He was from Italy and basically got a job in his hometown orchestra. I guess his people were looking out for him.

Muckey is unemployable in the music industry, he will never work as a trumpet player again, just as LaRosa’s colleague in Cleveland, William Preucil, a far more well known and high profile musician, who was fired at the same time for the same reason, will never work again as a violinist.
</QUOTE>

Unfortunately Massimo has a conservatory teaching job in Italy, which came before the orchestral position. Given his actions were against students it's pretty unconscionable that he would be hired to be a teacher again. A lot of that came from his former orchestra colleague, Yasu, working to rehabilite his image in Japan, where they both still co-teach quite a lot. A number of members of the brass section have maintained quite public relations with him, unfortunately.

Preucil won't get another job as a performing violinist (but he was also nearing retirement age when fired), but it seems is still pretty regularly teaching students in a private capacity. Obviously it happens quite quietly both for the students and him. Think folks are just so desperate for any edge they can find in auditions and he has quite a track record of success that folks will put a lot aside. Obviously that's in no way a defense of him- I went to cim when he was teaching there and am still quite close with some of the named folks in all that. It's more to say I understand why folks who are desperate to win jobs would seek him out, even if it's a bad idea.

Unfortunately the industry is competitive enough that it seems like space will often be made for them, regardless of the fact that it shouldn't. I hope you're right that Muckey won't work again in the employment industry. I just have trouble actually believing it given how it's shaken out for so many others. But I really hope it's the case.

JasonDonnelly · by **JasonDonnelly** » 2025-09-24 10:07 p.m.

Both Wang and Muckey have been removed from the NYP website, and the positions they held will be auditioned in 2026.

https://www.nyphil.org/about-us/auditions/

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