Still, after all these years...

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-16 12:58 p.m.

Last night I showed up to sub for a friend on 3rd trombone in an amateur big band. It was my birthday, and I abandoned my own birthday dinner to sub for my friend. When I got there I introduced myself to the lead trombonist...

Me: "Hi, I'm Dana." Offering my hand to shake.

Old lead trombonist just stared at me, didn't shake my hand, didn't say a word.

Me: "I'm subbing for [friend's name]."

Dude looks me up and down, then says, "Oh. Well, good for you, honey." Then turns away.

Dude never even told me his name.

Really? This stuff, still? In 2024 this old fart community player patronizes me and condescends to me as soon as I say hello, without even hearing me play?

I'm not usually petty, but this dude knows my name now. I still don't know his, and it turns out I'm not really that interested in knowing it. Really irked me, though I know it shouldn't. It says everything about him and nothing about me. But still...

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2024-04-16 2:22 p.m.

Misogynist jerk. I'm so sorry you had to go through it.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-04-16 2:37 p.m.

Sorry to hear this. If I were the guy I'd tell you my name, but might forget yours after a few minutes. Problem of fogeyhood, I guess. Though I've always had problems remembering names.

Then again, I've met enough female trombonists who played rings around me (as well as a tubist) so I wouldn't hold your gender against you. Being rude to you is just crude.

SteveM · by **SteveM** » 2024-04-16 3:57 p.m.

Hearing you refer to him as "this old fart community player" seems almost as bad as his attitude towards you (and his attitude was pretty awful).

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-16 4:10 p.m.

[quote="SteveM"]Hearing you refer to him as "this old fart community player" seems almost as bad as his attitude towards you (and his attitude was pretty awful).[/quote]

Was it the word fart?

Women are constantly told to be nice in the face of outrageous conduct by men.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-04-16 4:35 p.m.

Yeah, some people are jerks. Some people appear to be misogynistic jerks. Some people aren’t aware they’re being misogynistic jerks. “Smile.” “You should wear make-up.” “Good for you, honey.” Etc., etc., ad nauseum, ad irasceum.

In this context, isn’t the real question, “Can you play?” Even that is unnecessary because “I’m subbing for…” establishes credibility.

Jerk.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-16 4:48 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]In this context, isn’t the real question, “Can you play?” Even that is unnecessary because “I’m subbing for…” establishes credibility.[/quote]

Well, I wasn't in his head, but yeah, I did take his attitude to be an assumption that I couldn't play because of my gender. When this guy was young there were simply no female trombonists anywhere. And there were no other women in this band. Maybe he had just never seen a chick play trombone before.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-16 5:04 p.m.

[quote="SteveM"]Hearing you refer to him as "this old fart community player" seems almost as bad as his attitude towards you (and his attitude was pretty awful).[/quote]
As an old fart community player, I just took that to be a value-neutral description.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-04-16 5:06 p.m.

Progress is slow. And I wonder whether the old attitudes are on the rise again. Or maybe they really never went away.

And this: As an old fart community player, I just took that to be a value-neutral description.

Yep.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-16 5:06 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I did take his attitude to be an assumption that I couldn't play because of my gender.[/quote]
Was it the "good for you, honey" that tipped you off?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-04-16 5:10 p.m.

[quote="SteveM"]Hearing you refer to him as "this old fart community player" seems almost as bad as his attitude towards you (and his attitude was pretty awful).[/quote]

Oh please.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-04-16 5:39 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="240685" time="1713300517" user_id="16498">
I did take his attitude to be an assumption that I couldn't play because of my gender.[/quote]
Was it the "good for you, honey" that tipped you off?
</QUOTE>

It was dripping with condescension. Yeah. I didn't respond, thinking my job is to be professional and make my friend look good, and that I'd let my playing be my response. And then, of course, I made sure I was paying attention all the time and that I played everything as close to perfectly as I could. Turned out he was a good motivator! LOL

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-04-16 5:45 p.m.

I would have walked out and gone home.

Nobody needs to put up with that attitude.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-16 6:29 p.m.

Trying to visualize someone (well, some old band fart) calling Doug "Honey." :lol:

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-04-16 6:45 p.m.

A female "old fart" at a store just did that yesterday.

Well I am near Baltimore where everybody gets called "Hon."

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-04-16 6:56 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]A female "old fart" at a store just did that yesterday.

Well I am near Baltimore where everybody gets called "Hon."[/quote]

Yeah, and that's far enough south to expect that. Nowadays I get a lot of women calling me "Dear". Not sure which is better. I think the semantics of those is in the direction of the semantics for "Well, bless your heart." in the South.

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2024-04-16 7:34 p.m.

I'm an old fart who plays in a big band with Leah on sax and Liz on trumpet. For that matter, my ex-wife was a plumber, my brother a nurse, and I worked for a female manager of an auto parts store. I thought gender roles had pretty much gone away, but apparently there are still a few ignoramuses with a pulse and at least one plays trombone...

Kingfan · by **Kingfan** » 2024-04-16 7:34 p.m.

I'm an old fart who plays in a big band with Leah on sax and Liz on trumpet. For that matter, my ex-wife was a plumber, my brother a nurse, and I worked for a female manager of an auto parts store. I thought gender roles had pretty much gone away, but apparently there are still a few ignoramuses with a pulse and at least one plays trombone... This guy needs to listen to this. <YOUTUBE id="Q-Sk5chcIQk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Sk5chcIQk</YOUTUBE>

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2024-04-16 7:40 p.m.

I play in a local band with a female trombonist, and she's awesome. Everyone loves her. And I know she's had to deal with sexism. She has stories.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-04-16 8:24 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="240683" time="1713299735" user_id="172">
In this context, isn’t the real question, “Can you play?” Even that is unnecessary because “I’m subbing for…” establishes credibility.[/quote]

Well, I wasn't in his head, but yeah, I did take his attitude to be an assumption that I couldn't play because of my gender. When this guy was young there were simply no female trombonists anywhere. And there were no other women in this band. Maybe he had just never seen a chick play trombone before.
</QUOTE>

I have a picture of a female trombonist from the 1890s. Wonder if this guy ever heard of Betty Glover (Bass trombone, Cincinnati Symphony)? There were girl trombonists in swing bands of he 1930s. People who were active before this fossil was born.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-04-16 8:50 p.m.

Not just female players, but young ones too. I’ve seen younger singers or players looked down on, before they even sang or played. I’m all for fresh blood, there is some good talent plus it helps this old fart stay young! Has been better last few years than in the past. As the oldest member I’ve tried to set the example by welcoming them and offering deserved praise when due. Had a junior high tuba player want to join, although it wasn’t the best choice of instruments for our group I didn’t want to discourage him. Took him under my wing, even took my tuba to practice for several weeks to help him out. (Note: 45 minutes of tuba playing, followed by switching to trumpet for the first song of the service wasn’t the most fun I’ve ever had!) One weekend he left his horn at school after a football game. Let him use my euph that week, did good on that…he had switched from euph to tuba a year prior. He stuck with us and got beyond just playing his tuba during practice to playing during the service. Then a rare cancer struck, he’s been thru a lot but is recovering. Hoping he can rejoin us some day.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2024-04-16 9:12 p.m.

" Wonder if this guy ever heard of Betty Glover (Bass trombone, Cincinnati Symphony)?

I actually played duets with Betty Glover --- me on alto recorder and Betty on harpsichord ! She was a very talented lady ! We never discussed that we both were bass trombonists in major orchestras. She used to tour Europe as a harpsichordist !

Fidbone · by **Fidbone** » 2024-04-17 2:21 a.m.

Hmmm, it can work both ways, I once subbed in an all female big band and felt about as welcome as a fart in a space suit. Some of their members were as butch as a butchers dog!

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-04-17 2:27 a.m.

Dana, you might want to ask the friend you were subbing for if the guy has a specific problem with female trombonists or if he's an equal opportunity *sshole who treats every one badly.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-04-17 4:10 a.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="240685" time="1713300517" user_id="16498">

Well, I wasn't in his head, but yeah, I did take his attitude to be an assumption that I couldn't play because of my gender. When this guy was young there were simply no female trombonists anywhere. And there were no other women in this band. Maybe he had just never seen a chick play trombone before.[/quote]

I have a picture of a female trombonist from the 1890s. Wonder if this guy ever heard of Betty Glover (Bass trombone, Cincinnati Symphony)? There were girl trombonists in swing bands of he 1930s. People who were active before this fossil was born.
</QUOTE>

Betty was still active teaching and playing in the CSO when I was a grad student at CCM. I believe she was the source of the differentiator between pitbulls and lady bass trombonists. [lipstick] I assure you she would have had something to say about "that's nice for you, honey" and it probably would have left welts.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-04-17 4:38 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]

Me: "Hi, I'm Dana." Offering my hand to shake.

Old lead trombonist just stared at me, didn't shake my hand, didn't say a word.

Me: "I'm subbing for [friend's name]."

Dude looks me up and down, then says, "Oh. Well, good for you, honey." Then turns away.
[/quote]

Somehow I doubt you'll never need to know his name. He's the big fish in his oh-so-very little pond. Let him flop around and gasp for air as he wishes.

I see it from the other side these days. There are several universities in the area, producing their quota of trumpet jocks. I get dismissed as an "old fart" a lot. Each one is a giant guppy in his own little pond, ready to show the world how great *he* is. I still play trumpet a bunch, because people keep offering me filthy lucre to do so. I took up trombone a few years ago because it looked like you folks over on the other side of the band/orchestra/parade/dog&pony-show were having a good time. The Salvation Army was patient enough to let me figure how to make it go on their time in a corps band. I bought a bass from "greenbean" and started taking lessons from Gretchen MacNamara at Wright State University. Phenomenal teacher, one of those whole earth omnibus teachers who relates everything to everything. I had to move away before I got all she had to offer, but that was 2 years ago and I'm still absorbing things that only now are starting to fit together for me. Near as I can tell, Dr Mac's students all feel that way.

I'm enjoying the company of other trombonists very much.

She had to problem teaching this adult "old fart" student. Descriptive, not pejorative. :biggrin:

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Still, after all these years...