Bass trombone sound concept: Classical vs Jazz
- nateaff
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Jan 23, 2024
How do you guys/gals approach the different sound ideals of a Big Band vs a classical setting?
On tenor it seems much more intuitive just because I'm playing drastically different horns so it's easier to get into the headspace of "when I'm playing this horn, this is the sound it oughta make". It also feels as if by big Xeno and my little 2B "want" to be played a certain way.
On bass I'm using the same gear for everything, is it just a matter of changing my way of thinking with the sound. It feels a little like even if all the articulations and "ink" are played correctly I still sound like a classical player in a jazzer's clothing.
On tenor it seems much more intuitive just because I'm playing drastically different horns so it's easier to get into the headspace of "when I'm playing this horn, this is the sound it oughta make". It also feels as if by big Xeno and my little 2B "want" to be played a certain way.
On bass I'm using the same gear for everything, is it just a matter of changing my way of thinking with the sound. It feels a little like even if all the articulations and "ink" are played correctly I still sound like a classical player in a jazzer's clothing.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
It's all about the details. How you start a note, what you do in the middle, and how you end it.
I'm not going to say that I'm great at it either, but the players I aspire to be like can change that style at the drop of a hat- go from classical sustain of a note to the more nuanced approach to a jazz long note.
I'm not going to say that I'm great at it either, but the players I aspire to be like can change that style at the drop of a hat- go from classical sustain of a note to the more nuanced approach to a jazz long note.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
On bass, I think it's the same idea as on tenor. You want a lighter sound, with access to more "edge" at lower volume. The only real way to do that is to use a smaller horn, maybe harder articulations. You do it on tenor, I think you need to also do it on bass. This is why the Duo Gravis is cited so frequently as a commercial/jazz bass. In pop styles you don't want to push hard and have it just come out thick sounding, you need a little bite especially in the front of the note. Unless you're playing a solo, then you need the rounder sound at volume.
If you're doing a lot of walking bass, then it's a different. To get a believable walking bass, you need to sound like a bass, which is definitely a darker sound (no bark). I have a hard time doing all of that effectively on a single horn.
One thing I think I do on jazz styles is to treat most notes like they have a little sFp on it - a little accent, and definitely back off the body of the note. But yeah, I try to pick a smaller horn for jazz, if I can. Unfortunately, they don't make real bass trombones in a smaller size, so I wind up making some sub-optimal hardware choices to try to get a brighter sound down low (without sounding too much like a ripsaw) than I would for classical bass bone.
Bass trombone is not done evolving yet.
If you're doing a lot of walking bass, then it's a different. To get a believable walking bass, you need to sound like a bass, which is definitely a darker sound (no bark). I have a hard time doing all of that effectively on a single horn.
One thing I think I do on jazz styles is to treat most notes like they have a little sFp on it - a little accent, and definitely back off the body of the note. But yeah, I try to pick a smaller horn for jazz, if I can. Unfortunately, they don't make real bass trombones in a smaller size, so I wind up making some sub-optimal hardware choices to try to get a brighter sound down low (without sounding too much like a ripsaw) than I would for classical bass bone.
Bass trombone is not done evolving yet.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I've been struggling with this lately since I recently joined a big band as their bass. When I originally set up my horn I wanted to make it sound more like a symphonic bass, although it could never really go there. :roll: So I put in a lead pipe I thought would do that (Brass Ark MV50R) and I think I got as close as I could on this horn.
Then (in anticipation of starting with the big band), I decided I'd try something that might be "more suitable" for jazz and got an M/K George Roberts nickel pipe. (I mean -- George Roberts -- what could go wrong?) After playing on it for several weeks, I liked a lot of the sound (especially in mid and high range), but it just wasn't working well for the real bassy stuff and was being too much of a workout in terms of articulation and tone quality. So I'm back on the MV50R and it really just feels more "natural" and easier to play. Anything in terms of "brighter" sound in the midrange and above, I'll have to do without any extra help from the lead pipe. And I like the somewhat darker sound it puts out in the low range compared to the nickel GR pipe. And the horn will bark if I want it to.
I've also spent a LOT of time switching back and forth between rim sizes and shanks -- and switched back to my K9 shank from the K10, and sticking with the 112 rim instead of going with the 114.
But really, I think what's needed from the bass is ... err ... mostly bass. And otherwise, that particular "kind" of music (I think) is really more about the rhythm, the patterns, and the sort of note and tone quality shaping that Aiden seems to be talking about. I feel that whatever equipment I choose may leave me with something of a compromise that I may need to work harder on in places to get what I want.
Then (in anticipation of starting with the big band), I decided I'd try something that might be "more suitable" for jazz and got an M/K George Roberts nickel pipe. (I mean -- George Roberts -- what could go wrong?) After playing on it for several weeks, I liked a lot of the sound (especially in mid and high range), but it just wasn't working well for the real bassy stuff and was being too much of a workout in terms of articulation and tone quality. So I'm back on the MV50R and it really just feels more "natural" and easier to play. Anything in terms of "brighter" sound in the midrange and above, I'll have to do without any extra help from the lead pipe. And I like the somewhat darker sound it puts out in the low range compared to the nickel GR pipe. And the horn will bark if I want it to.
I've also spent a LOT of time switching back and forth between rim sizes and shanks -- and switched back to my K9 shank from the K10, and sticking with the 112 rim instead of going with the 114.
But really, I think what's needed from the bass is ... err ... mostly bass. And otherwise, that particular "kind" of music (I think) is really more about the rhythm, the patterns, and the sort of note and tone quality shaping that Aiden seems to be talking about. I feel that whatever equipment I choose may leave me with something of a compromise that I may need to work harder on in places to get what I want.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Regardless of anything about the sound or even the attack style...
Don't be late.
And don't be early either.
It's more about time than "sound."
And don't play longer notes than the tenors. That drags it down.
Don't be late.
And don't be early either.
It's more about time than "sound."
And don't play longer notes than the tenors. That drags it down.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Regardless of anything about the sound or even the attack style...
Don't be late.
And don't be early either.
It's more about time than "sound."[/quote]
:clever:
Don't be late.
And don't be early either.
It's more about time than "sound."[/quote]
:clever:
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]It's more about time than "sound."[/quote]
That's the one thing I noticed most this time around. I hadn't played music like this since my last year in college (1969) -- and then not trombone since I was playing the 2nd tenor sax book. It's taking me a bit of time to come back up to speed on the whole time thing.
That's the one thing I noticed most this time around. I hadn't played music like this since my last year in college (1969) -- and then not trombone since I was playing the 2nd tenor sax book. It's taking me a bit of time to come back up to speed on the whole time thing.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="hyperbolica"]One thing I think I do on jazz styles is to treat most notes like they have a little sFp on it - a little accent, and definitely back off the body of the note.[/quote]
Yeah, it's more about tonguing harder not playing louder - and because the fronts of your notes will be more defined, they need to be in the right place (as Doug said).
Definitely play as short as the tenors (as Doug also said). Listen to some old recordings, you'll be surprised just how short that can be. Tongue cut-offs / stops are normal - it's really the only way to define the ends of notes as clearly as the fronts.
Last but not least, enjoy all the extra stuff you get to play compared to classical. 8-)
Yeah, it's more about tonguing harder not playing louder - and because the fronts of your notes will be more defined, they need to be in the right place (as Doug said).
Definitely play as short as the tenors (as Doug also said). Listen to some old recordings, you'll be surprised just how short that can be. Tongue cut-offs / stops are normal - it's really the only way to define the ends of notes as clearly as the fronts.
Last but not least, enjoy all the extra stuff you get to play compared to classical. 8-)
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Paying attention to articulations really is the biggest thing.
I also find that in orchestra or classical chamber music I'm able to explore a lot more of the "soft" side of the bass trombone, which can be really nice. In jazz, with the typical amplified instruments, those ensembles never really get to the same kind of "piano" dynamic. So, overall I play louder in jazz.
I also find that in orchestra or classical chamber music I'm able to explore a lot more of the "soft" side of the bass trombone, which can be really nice. In jazz, with the typical amplified instruments, those ensembles never really get to the same kind of "piano" dynamic. So, overall I play louder in jazz.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
As has been suggested already, it's about note shapes, which includes articulation, sustain (or not) and release.
Very generally speaking, in classical bass trombone styles you want a rounder articulation with thick sustain and an open release.
Very generally speaking, in big band jazz style you want an articulation with more pop and less thickness to the sound in the body of the note. Often a tongue stop is the appropriate ending.
In both cases - and for everything in between - that's only a baseline approach, however - if that's all you ever do it's boring, and you need to be listening well to the group for style.
It's entirely possible to make these style changes without changing any equipment, though there are certainly some bass trombones that lend themselves more easily to one approach or the other.
Very generally speaking, in classical bass trombone styles you want a rounder articulation with thick sustain and an open release.
Very generally speaking, in big band jazz style you want an articulation with more pop and less thickness to the sound in the body of the note. Often a tongue stop is the appropriate ending.
In both cases - and for everything in between - that's only a baseline approach, however - if that's all you ever do it's boring, and you need to be listening well to the group for style.
It's entirely possible to make these style changes without changing any equipment, though there are certainly some bass trombones that lend themselves more easily to one approach or the other.
- ngrinder
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
I think getting the correct sound/time concept in our head is more important than equipment choice. My go to is Dave Taylor on Bob Mintzer’s Incredible Journey. Nothing beats his sound and time on that album.
Sort through big band albums made from 1960 onward, and look out for Tony Studd, Paul Faulise, Dave, etc. There are others, of course, and many fantastic contemporary players to listen to, but I think it’s smart to take one or two albums and really just sear that sound concept into your brain. The act of listening for a single voice in the trombone section will also get you acquainted with the music on a much deeper level. Once you have that blueprint the mechanics will follow. It’s very common for classical musicians to not have a strong sense of swing/time feel-it takes a lot of time and work to develop, but it all starts with listening.
Sort through big band albums made from 1960 onward, and look out for Tony Studd, Paul Faulise, Dave, etc. There are others, of course, and many fantastic contemporary players to listen to, but I think it’s smart to take one or two albums and really just sear that sound concept into your brain. The act of listening for a single voice in the trombone section will also get you acquainted with the music on a much deeper level. Once you have that blueprint the mechanics will follow. It’s very common for classical musicians to not have a strong sense of swing/time feel-it takes a lot of time and work to develop, but it all starts with listening.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]In jazz, with the typical amplified instruments, those ensembles never really get to the same kind of "piano" dynamic.[/quote]
Good bands can play soft enough to hear people talking in the back row, and take more risk of a note not speaking than would be countenanced in classical. But you are at the mercy of the amplified instruments and/or sound guy - if they get carried away, it's gonna be a long night...
Good bands can play soft enough to hear people talking in the back row, and take more risk of a note not speaking than would be countenanced in classical. But you are at the mercy of the amplified instruments and/or sound guy - if they get carried away, it's gonna be a long night...
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Yup... Jazz does not mean "loud," despite many bands assuming that.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
It's all about knowing the style. And knowing what the lead trumpeter is going to do with the accents and ends of notes (your lead trombone should be channeling it to you, but...). And knowing the couple times in the set where the bass needs to bark.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi folks.
It would be really nice if it were enough to change instrument / leadpide / mpc , to play correctly classical music or jazz music...!
As others people posted above , the sound concept , and , most important , the way to play on time , have to be developed by listening and imitating . Of course , it take time to achieve good results.
In my opinion , a thing that is not so often mentioned is that playing jazz require a slide motion different than playing classical .
As you know , if you play - for example- four eigth notes , starting on downbeat , the second and the fourth notes have to be delayed . If you play classical etc , no delay at all .
So , a player have to perform a slide motion that MATCH this delay correctly ; and that will be different from the slide motion that occours to play classical music , of course
This delay of the upbeat is not established by " chance"; it must be compatible with the Jazz "language" , which CANNOT be exactly written on paper , but only IMITATED after careful listening to how the great Jazzmen play on time , and then playing along with the records to match it perfectly .
To make an example , if you play in a Jazz Ensemble a dotted quarter note ( starting on downbeat) followed by one eight note , lots of classical trained players will play the eight note earlier , because of this different concept of slide motion , and because they do not feel the delay correctly .
Honestly , I do not understand the pourpose of the above mentioned " tongue cut - off stop" .... Never used this approach , absolutely....
Regards
Giancarlo
It would be really nice if it were enough to change instrument / leadpide / mpc , to play correctly classical music or jazz music...!
As others people posted above , the sound concept , and , most important , the way to play on time , have to be developed by listening and imitating . Of course , it take time to achieve good results.
In my opinion , a thing that is not so often mentioned is that playing jazz require a slide motion different than playing classical .
As you know , if you play - for example- four eigth notes , starting on downbeat , the second and the fourth notes have to be delayed . If you play classical etc , no delay at all .
So , a player have to perform a slide motion that MATCH this delay correctly ; and that will be different from the slide motion that occours to play classical music , of course
This delay of the upbeat is not established by " chance"; it must be compatible with the Jazz "language" , which CANNOT be exactly written on paper , but only IMITATED after careful listening to how the great Jazzmen play on time , and then playing along with the records to match it perfectly .
To make an example , if you play in a Jazz Ensemble a dotted quarter note ( starting on downbeat) followed by one eight note , lots of classical trained players will play the eight note earlier , because of this different concept of slide motion , and because they do not feel the delay correctly .
Honestly , I do not understand the pourpose of the above mentioned " tongue cut - off stop" .... Never used this approach , absolutely....
Regards
Giancarlo
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Lotsa good stuff in this thread, especially from Aiden, Doug, and Gabe. I'd reread those comments and commit them to memory.
I'll add my :good: to the discussion about attacks, note shapes, and especially time. In jazz, and especially in a big band, time is Job #1.
It's not about equipment so much as approach. But there is a fair difference in bass trombone tone quality that can be accomplished with equipment choices. In jazz, the bass trombone sound has less warmth and breadth, but is more compact and emphasizes core and brilliance.
As for volume, the best big bands I've played with get surprisingly loud, and on the other end are not super soft. I've heard bass trombonists say that the bass trombone should be as loud as the lead trumpet. (When I was on Buddy Rich's band the bass trombonist was Pete Beltran, a little guy with a huge sound, who always matched the volume of the lead trumpet and maybe just a little bit more.) Which makes sense because in big bands the bass trombone is really a lead instrument. It's prominent. It's foundational. It needs to have a strong presence.
I'll add my :good: to the discussion about attacks, note shapes, and especially time. In jazz, and especially in a big band, time is Job #1.
It's not about equipment so much as approach. But there is a fair difference in bass trombone tone quality that can be accomplished with equipment choices. In jazz, the bass trombone sound has less warmth and breadth, but is more compact and emphasizes core and brilliance.
As for volume, the best big bands I've played with get surprisingly loud, and on the other end are not super soft. I've heard bass trombonists say that the bass trombone should be as loud as the lead trumpet. (When I was on Buddy Rich's band the bass trombonist was Pete Beltran, a little guy with a huge sound, who always matched the volume of the lead trumpet and maybe just a little bit more.) Which makes sense because in big bands the bass trombone is really a lead instrument. It's prominent. It's foundational. It needs to have a strong presence.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]But there is a fair difference in bass trombone tone quality that can be accomplished with equipment choices. In jazz, the bass trombone sound has less warmth and breadth, but is more compact and emphasizes core and brilliance.[/quote]
That's where I was going with the nickel GR lead pipe. And it did provide that. But I lost some ease and quality in the bottom end (primarily the double valve stuff) that the MV50 gives me with ease.
The bass trombone is also part of the rhythm section, and needs to listen to the double bass/bass guitar and the bari sax. A lot of time it's fully a member of the trombone section (although sometimes doubling 3rd), but also sometimes (depending on the piece) it's doing something else in in terms of providing bass and countermelody.
That's where I was going with the nickel GR lead pipe. And it did provide that. But I lost some ease and quality in the bottom end (primarily the double valve stuff) that the MV50 gives me with ease.
The bass trombone is also part of the rhythm section, and needs to listen to the double bass/bass guitar and the bari sax. A lot of time it's fully a member of the trombone section (although sometimes doubling 3rd), but also sometimes (depending on the piece) it's doing something else in in terms of providing bass and countermelody.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="GGJazz"]
Honestly , I do not understand the pourpose of the above mentioned " tongue cut - off stop" .... Never used this approach , absolutely....
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
It's an "active release" at the end of any sustained note. How are you going to play a marcato (or sometimes accent) quarter note correctly if you aren't playing a big fat "DAHHT" ?
Or how will you play a dotted half note that has an active release on four without a tongue stop on beat four? It'll be muddy without it.
Honestly , I do not understand the pourpose of the above mentioned " tongue cut - off stop" .... Never used this approach , absolutely....
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
It's an "active release" at the end of any sustained note. How are you going to play a marcato (or sometimes accent) quarter note correctly if you aren't playing a big fat "DAHHT" ?
Or how will you play a dotted half note that has an active release on four without a tongue stop on beat four? It'll be muddy without it.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
There’s some nice bass trombone playing on Vanguard JO’s Monday Night Live recording. Doug Purviance did some of the production/engineering and the bass bone was nicely captured. Presence without blattisimo (or blastisimo).
- flotrb
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Jun 20, 2018
Here is a nice example of Edward Kleinhammer (Bach 50B w/Bach 1½G), crossing over to the jazz side with no problems: [url]https://youtu.be/x8iC0U1l7ys?si=4rnynmFPYoHuiixG
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hello again.
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="GGJazz"]Hello again.
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
Hi Giancarlo! I am no master of big band music or jazz, but I wouldn't be able to do these tunes without tongue stops:
<YOUTUBE id="46hd6DZS0ww">[media]https://youtu.be/46hd6DZS0ww?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="lcPkJPL_G7s">[media]https://youtu.be/lcPkJPL_G7s?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
You lose a whole articulation and type of note ending if you don't have the tongue stop in your tool bag.
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
Hi Giancarlo! I am no master of big band music or jazz, but I wouldn't be able to do these tunes without tongue stops:
<YOUTUBE id="46hd6DZS0ww">
<YOUTUBE id="lcPkJPL_G7s">
You lose a whole articulation and type of note ending if you don't have the tongue stop in your tool bag.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="GGJazz"]Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .[/quote]
This might be "in time", but will be perceived by listeners as longer than tongue cut-offs. It's not as clearly defined, and stylistically, jazz usually requires more definition.
This might be "in time", but will be perceived by listeners as longer than tongue cut-offs. It's not as clearly defined, and stylistically, jazz usually requires more definition.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="tbdana"]I've heard bass trombonists say that the bass trombone should be as loud as the lead trumpet.[/quote]
Absolutely, if you have the bass line. Otherwise, you're a 4th tenor.
And this is where equipment choices can be difficult: wanting to be able to crank double-trigger C's that match the lead trumpet's volume, without being too dark everywhere. You can keep a great color and struggle with those double-trigger notes, or you can go big to make the low stuff easy and sound tubby. The middle ground is very narrow.
Absolutely, if you have the bass line. Otherwise, you're a 4th tenor.
And this is where equipment choices can be difficult: wanting to be able to crank double-trigger C's that match the lead trumpet's volume, without being too dark everywhere. You can keep a great color and struggle with those double-trigger notes, or you can go big to make the low stuff easy and sound tubby. The middle ground is very narrow.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I listen to a lot of baritone sax players for concept. The line is often doubled anyway.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="GGJazz"]Hello again.
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
I was going to post this same thing myself, fully knowing that there would be pushback from the tongue-stop advocates.
Personally, I never stop a note with the tongue - just stop the air. It can be just as short and percussive as those who like to stop with the tongue.
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
I was going to post this same thing myself, fully knowing that there would be pushback from the tongue-stop advocates.
Personally, I never stop a note with the tongue - just stop the air. It can be just as short and percussive as those who like to stop with the tongue.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="TomInME"]You can keep a great color and struggle with those double-trigger notes, or you can go big to make the low stuff easy and sound tubby. The middle ground is very narrow.[/quote]
So it's not just me. :shock: I can avoid at least some of the tubiness (tubbyness?), but it takes corresponding effort and strong embouchure. I've decided that for my current role, it's more important to get the lower end right.
About a week ago I did read a good piece by a bass trombonist, and one line in it was "Always play loud -- no matter how much the trumpet section complains." (or words to that effect). :lol:
So it's not just me. :shock: I can avoid at least some of the tubiness (tubbyness?), but it takes corresponding effort and strong embouchure. I've decided that for my current role, it's more important to get the lower end right.
About a week ago I did read a good piece by a bass trombonist, and one line in it was "Always play loud -- no matter how much the trumpet section complains." (or words to that effect). :lol:
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="GGJazz" post_id="241404" time="1714064053" user_id="15528">
Hello again.
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
I was going to post this same thing myself, fully knowing that there would be pushback from the tongue-stop advocates.
Personally, I never stop a note with the tongue - just stop the air. It can be just as short and percussive as those who like to stop with the tongue.
</QUOTE>
Generally speaking, and very specifically in big bands, every note we play has one of three dominant functions: It is melodic, it is harmonic, or it is rhythmic. (Of course, it's usually all three to some extent, but only one serves the dominant function.)
In big bands, trombones very often play background and this usually means you play some percussive rhythmic notes: notes whose only function is percussion; quick hits that stop as quickly as the snare drum that is usually also playing them. Depending on the chart, sometimes those notes are really fat, but often (especially in modern big band music) it calls for an extremely short hit. You get that percussion effect best and easiest with the tongue stopping the note, with a "tit" articulation. (Don't go there you sickos! :D )
It happens so often, and it contributes so much to the groove of the chart, that using the tongue to stop the note is extremely useful. This is especially true for bass trombone, where the air moves slower and it's harder to get a distinct and very short stop without using the tongue.
Hello again.
Hi Harrison !
Well , to me , in any situation , to stop a tone I just stop blowing. The point is to stop the blow EXACTLY at the right moment . No tongue stop , just air stop .This is my opinion .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
I was going to post this same thing myself, fully knowing that there would be pushback from the tongue-stop advocates.
Personally, I never stop a note with the tongue - just stop the air. It can be just as short and percussive as those who like to stop with the tongue.
</QUOTE>
Generally speaking, and very specifically in big bands, every note we play has one of three dominant functions: It is melodic, it is harmonic, or it is rhythmic. (Of course, it's usually all three to some extent, but only one serves the dominant function.)
In big bands, trombones very often play background and this usually means you play some percussive rhythmic notes: notes whose only function is percussion; quick hits that stop as quickly as the snare drum that is usually also playing them. Depending on the chart, sometimes those notes are really fat, but often (especially in modern big band music) it calls for an extremely short hit. You get that percussion effect best and easiest with the tongue stopping the note, with a "tit" articulation. (Don't go there you sickos! :D )
It happens so often, and it contributes so much to the groove of the chart, that using the tongue to stop the note is extremely useful. This is especially true for bass trombone, where the air moves slower and it's harder to get a distinct and very short stop without using the tongue.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi all.
Well , different point of wiew. I am glad that my point match with Doug point !
You can be super percussive and well definited just stopping to blow.....
I play bass trbn chair in Big Band , but , as I said above , I NEVER use the tongue to stop a tone .
But if someone like this way , it' s fine....
Regards
Giancarlo
Well , different point of wiew. I am glad that my point match with Doug point !
You can be super percussive and well definited just stopping to blow.....
I play bass trbn chair in Big Band , but , as I said above , I NEVER use the tongue to stop a tone .
But if someone like this way , it' s fine....
Regards
Giancarlo
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="ghmerrill"]I've decided that for my current role, it's more important to get the lower end right.[/quote]
Gotta do whatcha gotta do. I'm trying to move just far enough in that direction to get the beef I want on C/B without losing too much color. Doug was helping me get there until I said to use tongue stops :lol:
Gotta do whatcha gotta do. I'm trying to move just far enough in that direction to get the beef I want on C/B without losing too much color. Doug was helping me get there until I said to use tongue stops :lol:
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="ngrinder"]I think getting the correct sound/time concept in our head is more important than equipment choice. My go to is Dave Taylor on Bob Mintzer’s Incredible Journey. Nothing beats his sound and time on that album.[/quote]
Yes!
Yes!
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
About stopping the tone with the tongue, in some bands it is an agreed style. In some other bands it is not. It is a quite audioble difference. The Baise clip above says it all. Most players can not cut of like that whout using the tonguestop. But if you can, well go for it.
<YOUTUBE id="j4KKdtKJBFo" t="46">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4KKdtKJBFo&t=46s</YOUTUBE> not a brass instrument, but it is the same style sometimes.
<YOUTUBE id="j4KKdtKJBFo" t="46">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4KKdtKJBFo&t=46s</YOUTUBE> not a brass instrument, but it is the same style sometimes.
- CBlair
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Jun 15, 2019
Doug Elliot -
"And don't play longer notes than the tenors. That drags it down."
A great reminder when playing choice phat notes.
"And don't play longer notes than the tenors. That drags it down."
A great reminder when playing choice phat notes.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="TomInME"]Gotta do whatcha gotta do. I'm trying to move just far enough in that direction to get the beef I want on C/B without losing too much color.[/quote]
After some hand wringing (and looking at a few threads on leadpipes and some things that leadpipe makers have said), I decided today to see what the result would be of cutting down my George Roberts nickel leadpipe, and cut about 3/8" off it, and -- voila! -- there it was. Great color and resonance overall, including the double valve register, and easy to jump into that register with no extra effort. Overall, it feels noticeably more efficient. This acoustics stuff is a murky art.
After some hand wringing (and looking at a few threads on leadpipes and some things that leadpipe makers have said), I decided today to see what the result would be of cutting down my George Roberts nickel leadpipe, and cut about 3/8" off it, and -- voila! -- there it was. Great color and resonance overall, including the double valve register, and easy to jump into that register with no extra effort. Overall, it feels noticeably more efficient. This acoustics stuff is a murky art.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
What did you use to expand the leadpipe after you cut it?
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="ghmerrill"]After some hand wringing (and looking at a few threads on leadpipes and some things that leadpipe makers have said), I decided today to see what the result would be of cutting down my George Roberts nickel leadpipe, and cut about 3/8" off it, and -- voila! -- there it was. Great color and resonance overall, including the double valve register, and easy to jump into that register with no extra effort. Overall, it feels noticeably more efficient. This acoustics stuff is a murky art.[/quote]
Nice! Doug set me up with an XB L/L10 to replace my 1 1/4GM and it opened up the bottom end a nice amount - it's a bit darker (I had some leeway there), but still focused and plenty of zing when the volume steps up. Maybe I should look into a nickel leadpipe...
Nice! Doug set me up with an XB L/L10 to replace my 1 1/4GM and it opened up the bottom end a nice amount - it's a bit darker (I had some leeway there), but still focused and plenty of zing when the volume steps up. Maybe I should look into a nickel leadpipe...
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]What did you use to expand the leadpipe after you cut it?[/quote]
Why would I need to expand it?
Why would I need to expand it?
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="TomInME"]Nice! Doug set me up with an XB L/L10 to replace my 1 1/4GM and it opened up the bottom end a nice amount - it's a bit darker (I had some leeway there), but still focused and plenty of zing when the volume steps up. Maybe I should look into a nickel leadpipe...[/quote]
I have a K10 for my setup, but I really ended up just using it (in combination with a 114 rim) as a "training aid" to extend range reliably into the double valve register. It's really too open for me in terms of normal playing. Particulary for the big band, the 112 rim and K9 shank work much better for me.
I have a K10 for my setup, but I really ended up just using it (in combination with a 114 rim) as a "training aid" to extend range reliably into the double valve register. It's really too open for me in terms of normal playing. Particulary for the big band, the 112 rim and K9 shank work much better for me.
- Lastbone
- Posts: 56
- Joined: May 15, 2019
Sorry to be late in this conversation... Jazz and classical both take quite a while to get the nuances right, or even close.
For me, orchestral playing is still challenging after 32 years. You need good posture, an open throat and real care with the attacks. Pitch and sound are primary, as well as being able to come in cold after lots of rests.
Jazz requires a large dose of reckless abandon. The articulations are heavy, you use more lip, and you slide in and out of notes a lot.
The players I know, both trombone and trumpet, and fabulous singers as well, lose their classical chops if they play one night of jazz per week. Nobody wants to hear someone "kiss off" by accident at the end of an orchestral solo.
For me, orchestral playing is still challenging after 32 years. You need good posture, an open throat and real care with the attacks. Pitch and sound are primary, as well as being able to come in cold after lots of rests.
Jazz requires a large dose of reckless abandon. The articulations are heavy, you use more lip, and you slide in and out of notes a lot.
The players I know, both trombone and trumpet, and fabulous singers as well, lose their classical chops if they play one night of jazz per week. Nobody wants to hear someone "kiss off" by accident at the end of an orchestral solo.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="241528" time="1714183803" user_id="3642">
What did you use to expand the leadpipe after you cut it?[/quote]
Why would I need to expand it?
</QUOTE>
I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.
<ATTACHMENT filename="fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.
What did you use to expand the leadpipe after you cut it?[/quote]
Why would I need to expand it?
</QUOTE>
I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.
<ATTACHMENT filename="fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg" index="0">
The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Yes, that may be true (well, definitely is true in terms of the overall dimensions of a leadpipe). If you measure the OD of a leadpipe at different places with a digital caliper, you'll see the differences. But I think there are a couple of answers to that. The first one is "So what?". :) That is, what would be the consequences of that? But bypassing that response in terms of any theory of leadpipe design (or maybe in response to it), the difference in end diameter will almost certainly be negligible. It's not like you're lopping off a few inches.
In this case, I didn't measure the end diameter of the pipe I cut, but measuring that now I can see that the difference in outside diameter of the cut M/K George Roberts pipe and the (uncut!) Brass Ark MV50 pipe I have is .003". So I don't see anything to be concerned about with this. It's definitely not enough of a difference for me to (for whatever reason) attempt to expand the end of the pipe a mere .003", even if I had good equipment to do that. And since I'm interested in the empirical results -- which I have to say are unexpectedly good -- it doesn't matter.
None of this is to say that I recommend to anyone that they start hacking off the ends of their leadpipes. Given what I'd seen about pipe shortening, I was curious to see if it might make a significant difference and was fully prepared to feel bad about screwing up a perfectly good pipe if that didn't work. That was a big part of the hand wringing prior to the act. :lol:
In this case, I didn't measure the end diameter of the pipe I cut, but measuring that now I can see that the difference in outside diameter of the cut M/K George Roberts pipe and the (uncut!) Brass Ark MV50 pipe I have is .003". So I don't see anything to be concerned about with this. It's definitely not enough of a difference for me to (for whatever reason) attempt to expand the end of the pipe a mere .003", even if I had good equipment to do that. And since I'm interested in the empirical results -- which I have to say are unexpectedly good -- it doesn't matter.
None of this is to say that I recommend to anyone that they start hacking off the ends of their leadpipes. Given what I'd seen about pipe shortening, I was curious to see if it might make a significant difference and was fully prepared to feel bad about screwing up a perfectly good pipe if that didn't work. That was a big part of the hand wringing prior to the act. :lol:
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="Lastbone"]The players I know, both trombone and trumpet, and fabulous singers as well, lose their classical chops if they play one night of jazz per week.[/quote]
Seems more likely that they would lose their jazz chops by playing classical 6 nights a week... (math)
Seems more likely that they would lose their jazz chops by playing classical 6 nights a week... (math)
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I don't have classical chops. I have community band chops. So no obvious loss, and very likely a significant gain. :lol:
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
The bore at the end of a leadpipe is not the same as the slide, this is what makes leadpipes play differently, the difference in the internals. I wouldnt stress about that unless it is causing a leak/not sealing properly at the end. There is a little bit of wiggle room at the end of your leadpipe, though .003" is making a large ish difference in the OD. If it plays good then it is good!
- tim
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Apr 18, 2018
:clever: :idea: [quote="Burgerbob"]Yup... Jazz does not mean "loud," despite many bands assuming that.[/quote]
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="tim"]:clever: :idea: <QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="241384" time="1714052210" user_id="3131">
Yup... Jazz does not mean "loud," despite many bands assuming that.[/quote]
</QUOTE>
There’s a difference between ‘blastissimo’ and ‘blattissimo’.
Yup... Jazz does not mean "loud," despite many bands assuming that.[/quote]
</QUOTE>
There’s a difference between ‘blastissimo’ and ‘blattissimo’.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="tim" post_id="241799" time="1714496123" user_id="3092">
:clever: :idea:[/quote]
There’s a difference between ‘blastissimo’ and ‘blattissimo’.
</QUOTE>
There's also a difference between a professional playing actually loud and an amateur playing "loud". The professional will sound genuinely loud, and the amateur will just sound blatty, and will actually be kind of mezzo. So then we get an idea that loud is bad, but the real issue is being able to just play with a good full sound. The kids in college playing everything "covered" is the result. I'm tired of the muffled cotton-ball sound that is supposedly "classical". Don't bring that baggage over to the commercial styles. Sure, jazz is basically classical music now but.... :twisted:
Big bands, at least, are loud.
:clever: :idea:[/quote]
There’s a difference between ‘blastissimo’ and ‘blattissimo’.
</QUOTE>
There's also a difference between a professional playing actually loud and an amateur playing "loud". The professional will sound genuinely loud, and the amateur will just sound blatty, and will actually be kind of mezzo. So then we get an idea that loud is bad, but the real issue is being able to just play with a good full sound. The kids in college playing everything "covered" is the result. I'm tired of the muffled cotton-ball sound that is supposedly "classical". Don't bring that baggage over to the commercial styles. Sure, jazz is basically classical music now but.... :twisted:
Big bands, at least, are loud.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
When the Artie Shaw band was going (I played lead for about 17 years at the end of the era), there were certain sections of tunes where the entire band would play softer than I had ever experienced in any group, any genre.
I think it was a Boston thing, since most of the members were from there. Certain no one in DC can or would do that.
The key to it is, if you can hear yourself, you're too loud.
I think it was a Boston thing, since most of the members were from there. Certain no one in DC can or would do that.
The key to it is, if you can hear yourself, you're too loud.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Big bands in LA do not play loud most of the time. I love it. Music can happen, not just decibels.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="Burgerbob"]Big bands in LA do not play loud most of the time. I love it. Music can happen, not just decibels.[/quote]
My experience is not very broad, but is it typical of studio players to not take things quite as far as some bands that only/mostly play live?
My experience is not very broad, but is it typical of studio players to not take things quite as far as some bands that only/mostly play live?
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
I have to wonder if it may have something to do with the average age of audience members.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
In live situations you can almost never trust the mics/sound system/sound engineer to balance ANYTHING properly.
In a studio it's totally different... you can't be second-guessing the person running it.
In a studio it's totally different... you can't be second-guessing the person running it.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Venues in LA are also not very large. Similar to NYC, you aren't there in a tiny club trying to push the audience out with sound pressure.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Doug Elliott"]When the Artie Shaw band was going (I played lead for about 17 years at the end of the era), there were certain sections of tunes where the entire band would play softer than I had ever experienced in any group, any genre.[/quote]
Something that Basie really got right too... if the quiet stuff is properly quiet, the impact of loud is so much greater when it happens. Maximizing perceived dynamic range is interesting, maximizing the ceiling not so much.
Something that Basie really got right too... if the quiet stuff is properly quiet, the impact of loud is so much greater when it happens. Maximizing perceived dynamic range is interesting, maximizing the ceiling not so much.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]Big bands in LA do not play loud most of the time. I love it. Music can happen, not just decibels.[/quote]
My experience was back when the earth's crust was still cooling, but the best big bands I played with in L.A. played really freakin' loud. They just didn't overblow their horns, and it didn't sound like they were playing as loud as they were, but it was very loud.
I think the loudest one was probably Les Hooper's band one night when the trumpet section was Rick Baptist, Walt Johnson, George Graham, and Dan Fornero in a small club on Ventura Blvd called Catalina's. It was nuts that night. My ears still rang the next day.
My experience was back when the earth's crust was still cooling, but the best big bands I played with in L.A. played really freakin' loud. They just didn't overblow their horns, and it didn't sound like they were playing as loud as they were, but it was very loud.
I think the loudest one was probably Les Hooper's band one night when the trumpet section was Rick Baptist, Walt Johnson, George Graham, and Dan Fornero in a small club on Ventura Blvd called Catalina's. It was nuts that night. My ears still rang the next day.
- u_2bobone
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Mar 25, 2018
Just my 2 cents : "Slamming" a note shut with your tongue is one of the most destructive brass playing practices imaginable. It tightens and stresses every physical component involved in delivering air to your instrument. I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section. Air is the fuel of sound. No air, no sound. Simple ! :idk:
- Fridge
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
Just don’t overthink everything you do. Play in tune, play in time with a good sound. Know the difference between Basie and Beethoven. I see overthinking CONSTANTLY on this website. Horns, mouthpieces, lead pipes, etc. Sometimes I think you should just give it a rest and go practice……..
Fridge
Fridge
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="2bobone"]Just my 2 cents : "Slamming" a note shut with your tongue is one of the most destructive brass playing practices imaginable. It tightens and stresses every physical component involved in delivering air to your instrument. I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section. <U>Air is the fuel of sound. No air, no sound</U>. Simple ! :idk:[/quote]
It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.
It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.
It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.
It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Fridge"]Just don’t overthink everything you do. Play in tune, play in time with a good sound. Know the difference between Basie and Beethoven. I see overthinking CONSTANTLY on this website. Horns, mouthpieces, lead pipes, etc. Sometimes I think you should just give it a rest and go practice……..
Fridge[/quote]
<ATTACHMENT filename="applause.gif" index="0">[attachment=0]applause.gif</ATTACHMENT>
Overthinking is what we do on social media. That's about all there is to do on social media. But in real life, and especially in playing trombone, it is the death of excellence.
Fridge[/quote]
<ATTACHMENT filename="applause.gif" index="0">
Overthinking is what we do on social media. That's about all there is to do on social media. But in real life, and especially in playing trombone, it is the death of excellence.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.
[/quote]
<ATTACHMENT filename="thank you harry.gif" index="1">[attachment=1]thank you harry.gif</ATTACHMENT><ATTACHMENT filename="thumbs up.gif" index="0">[attachment=0]thumbs up.gif</ATTACHMENT>
[/quote]
<ATTACHMENT filename="thank you harry.gif" index="1">
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ghmerrill" post_id="241532" time="1714185270" user_id="2941">
Why would I need to expand it?[/quote]
I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.
fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg
The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.
</QUOTE>
Just a note, I’d wager the last couple of inches of most leadpipes is in fact cylindrical. You’d have to trim quite a bit off to get into the taper.
Last one I measured (a longer pipe, but still) had over 3” of cylindrical at the end. And yes, this length still does matter. Why else do they sell regular and long leadpipes of the same size and taper? You can see (roughly) how long the cylindrical part is by seeing what actually contacts the inside of the inner slide. Not exact, but you get the idea.
Cheers,
Andy
Why would I need to expand it?[/quote]
I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.
fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg
The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.
</QUOTE>
Just a note, I’d wager the last couple of inches of most leadpipes is in fact cylindrical. You’d have to trim quite a bit off to get into the taper.
Last one I measured (a longer pipe, but still) had over 3” of cylindrical at the end. And yes, this length still does matter. Why else do they sell regular and long leadpipes of the same size and taper? You can see (roughly) how long the cylindrical part is by seeing what actually contacts the inside of the inner slide. Not exact, but you get the idea.
Cheers,
Andy
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Interesting!!
I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.
I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Interesting!!
I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.[/quote]
You can get a longer taper in a longer pipe, but noting some manufacturers out there… then it wouldn’t be a T2 and a T2L, they’d be different
And yes, that ‘stability’ is a great descriptor when it works…can also tighten and feel constraining if it doesn’t.
Somewhat back on topic, I trimmed off bass leadpipe to where the taper ended to made a completely smooth transition…. Well, I made a great buzz aid for my car. Do not recommend for use in a horn.
Cheers,
Andy
I would think the longer ones would let you get a slower taper, but I believe you that some pipes have that at the end. It would help keep it stable, too.[/quote]
You can get a longer taper in a longer pipe, but noting some manufacturers out there… then it wouldn’t be a T2 and a T2L, they’d be different
And yes, that ‘stability’ is a great descriptor when it works…can also tighten and feel constraining if it doesn’t.
Somewhat back on topic, I trimmed off bass leadpipe to where the taper ended to made a completely smooth transition…. Well, I made a great buzz aid for my car. Do not recommend for use in a horn.
Cheers,
Andy
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Olofson"]About stopping the tone with the tongue, in some bands it is an agreed style. In some other bands it is not. It is a quite audioble difference. The Baise clip above says it all. Most players can not cut of like that whout using the tonguestop. But if you can, well go for it.
<YOUTUBE id="j4KKdtKJBFo" t="46">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4KKdtKJBFo&t=46s</YOUTUBE> not a brass instrument, but it is the same style sometimes.[/quote]
That was a reallly good video about toungestops and where it is appropriate. It's not a tangent because it is one tool more for the concept of jazz and maybe not so much for classical , but I'm sure someone can think of use also in classical music, maybe in some modern music with effects. Use a tool if it sounds good. Anything that sounds good is good if you can make it work for you.
/Tom
<YOUTUBE id="j4KKdtKJBFo" t="46">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4KKdtKJBFo&t=46s</YOUTUBE> not a brass instrument, but it is the same style sometimes.[/quote]
That was a reallly good video about toungestops and where it is appropriate. It's not a tangent because it is one tool more for the concept of jazz and maybe not so much for classical , but I'm sure someone can think of use also in classical music, maybe in some modern music with effects. Use a tool if it sounds good. Anything that sounds good is good if you can make it work for you.
/Tom
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ghmerrill" post_id="241532" time="1714185270" user_id="2941">
Why would I need to expand it?[/quote]
I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.
fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg
The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.
</QUOTE>
If you cut a leadpipe in half along the length of it, you’ll see it does have an hourglass-like shape to it, whether it’s drawn or seamed and formed. Many people assume that a leadpipe is simply a tube to fit the mouthpiece: the mouthpiece fits into the tube, and that the mouthpiece is the only venturi in the first part of the instrument.
The leadpipe is not simply an extension of the mouthpiece. It has its own venturi. The venturis (venturas? venturæ?) in the first yard of the trombone are the lips, the throat of the mouthpiece, and then the throat (venturi) of the leadpipe.
I cut some off the end of an old leadpipe. I had an old Bach 50 leadpipe that was slightly corroded, so I trimmed about 1/4” from the end. I used that for many years when I was playing heavier equipment. With lighter equipment, I’m now on a standard 50 leadpipe. The trimmed 50 takes just a wee bit more air, and it tends to produce a lot core and a very dark sound—but it has an immediacy of attack. It can take some sloppiness. The stock 50 has ever-so-slightly less core, more stability, a few more upper frequencies to the sound. Less room for error.
When I bought an Edwards tenor, Christan fitted me with a leadpipe that had about 5/8” trimmed from the bottom. It was developed for an artist—trombone professor in Texas, lots of students, name escapes me… Anyhow, on tenor and with that set-up, it took the “bubble” off the initial attack. Doing an A-B comparison in the Edwards shop and at home, it was really an eye-opener.
It’s amazing how such a small bit of metal can make such a huge difference in the feel and sound.
Why would I need to expand it?[/quote]
I might be exposing some ignorance on my part, but it's my understanding that a leadpipe is not cylindrical -- it's hour glass shaped. So if you cut it shorter, the diameter on the end will be reduced and it won't be .562" on the end anymore.
fpaq1wmglheik2y097tm.jpg
The images of the construction of leadpipes on Getzen's page (the first thing that comes up in Google) are misleading because it makes it seem like a leadpipe is completely cylindrical on the outside and somehow tapered only on the inside. But I believe they are drawn from a single gauge of tubing, resulting in an hourglass shape internally and externally.
</QUOTE>
If you cut a leadpipe in half along the length of it, you’ll see it does have an hourglass-like shape to it, whether it’s drawn or seamed and formed. Many people assume that a leadpipe is simply a tube to fit the mouthpiece: the mouthpiece fits into the tube, and that the mouthpiece is the only venturi in the first part of the instrument.
The leadpipe is not simply an extension of the mouthpiece. It has its own venturi. The venturis (venturas? venturæ?) in the first yard of the trombone are the lips, the throat of the mouthpiece, and then the throat (venturi) of the leadpipe.
I cut some off the end of an old leadpipe. I had an old Bach 50 leadpipe that was slightly corroded, so I trimmed about 1/4” from the end. I used that for many years when I was playing heavier equipment. With lighter equipment, I’m now on a standard 50 leadpipe. The trimmed 50 takes just a wee bit more air, and it tends to produce a lot core and a very dark sound—but it has an immediacy of attack. It can take some sloppiness. The stock 50 has ever-so-slightly less core, more stability, a few more upper frequencies to the sound. Less room for error.
When I bought an Edwards tenor, Christan fitted me with a leadpipe that had about 5/8” trimmed from the bottom. It was developed for an artist—trombone professor in Texas, lots of students, name escapes me… Anyhow, on tenor and with that set-up, it took the “bubble” off the initial attack. Doing an A-B comparison in the Edwards shop and at home, it was really an eye-opener.
It’s amazing how such a small bit of metal can make such a huge difference in the feel and sound.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="2bobone"]I observed a conductor with that concept thoroughly imbedded in his brain destroy a rich, full-bodied brass section into a semi-percussion section.[/quote]
Maybe the conductor wanted a percussive sound? There's some orchestral music (mid 20th-century?) where that would be entirely consistent with what the composer intended.
Please be clear if you're judging the conductor's musical choices as wrong for that particular context vs declaring a particular performance technique invalid everywhere.
In a performance context, I do whatever is necessary to get the correct result on the other side of the bell. (I occasionally succeed) In jazz, that generally means strongly rhythmic articulations, often in the form of very very short notes. For me, that requires fairly sharp tongue attacks and tongue stops. I will also note that this is a bass trombone thread, and it's more difficult to be as crisp as the smaller-bore instruments - tongue is often necessary for some people (definitely me).
I fully believe Doug when he says he can get very very short notes without a tongue stop (the Artie Shaw book had plenty), and I doubt any of us could hear a difference. (and if you can't hear a difference, there is no difference) However, a lot of players can't, and might benefit from tongue stopping if they can get past that pedantic "tongue stops are BAD" mentality.
That was the point I was trying to make originally: if you're not playing short enough without tongue stops, maybe you need them, and in jazz they're generally accepted. Hanging over is NOT.
Maybe the conductor wanted a percussive sound? There's some orchestral music (mid 20th-century?) where that would be entirely consistent with what the composer intended.
Please be clear if you're judging the conductor's musical choices as wrong for that particular context vs declaring a particular performance technique invalid everywhere.
In a performance context, I do whatever is necessary to get the correct result on the other side of the bell. (I occasionally succeed) In jazz, that generally means strongly rhythmic articulations, often in the form of very very short notes. For me, that requires fairly sharp tongue attacks and tongue stops. I will also note that this is a bass trombone thread, and it's more difficult to be as crisp as the smaller-bore instruments - tongue is often necessary for some people (definitely me).
I fully believe Doug when he says he can get very very short notes without a tongue stop (the Artie Shaw book had plenty), and I doubt any of us could hear a difference. (and if you can't hear a difference, there is no difference) However, a lot of players can't, and might benefit from tongue stopping if they can get past that pedantic "tongue stops are BAD" mentality.
That was the point I was trying to make originally: if you're not playing short enough without tongue stops, maybe you need them, and in jazz they're generally accepted. Hanging over is NOT.
- Redthunder
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]It's possible to do anything wrong. I'm surprised there is a debate that tongue stops aren't a legit part of the commercial styles. I get that some really good players can get by without them, but pretending like it isn't or wasn't a thing, or isn't done to a high level is just being uninformed. As for the bold underlined quote, that literally the point of the tongue stop, in addition to being an audible active release.
It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.[/quote]
Nobody said it's not a legit part of commercial playing. Doug is just saying it's entirely possible to do it without tongue stops... and he's right. It takes practice like anything else, and it has made my trombone playing better all around.
It should be a targeted effect, not something you do on every note.[/quote]
Nobody said it's not a legit part of commercial playing. Doug is just saying it's entirely possible to do it without tongue stops... and he's right. It takes practice like anything else, and it has made my trombone playing better all around.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I wasn't quoting Doug, now was I? This is absurd. And it's just a tiny part of the overall discussion.
- Redthunder
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Mar 29, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]I wasn't quoting Doug, now was I? This is absurd[/quote]
I still don't see where anybody said it so... :idk: Sorry?
I still don't see where anybody said it so... :idk: Sorry?
- Bfullerbtb23
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mar 10, 2024
In my experience, the overall consistency and standard of how you treat each note is the same. However the main difference is in the shapes of notes as many other people have shared in this forum. Even though the “standard” is the same I fond myself much more relaxed in a jazz setting
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I do play bass trombone but primarily I consider me to be more experienced as a tenor player. I can use the same gear for classical as well as jazz but to fit in I choose equipment that blends with others. Generally I use larger equipment for classical music compared to jazz and it's the same whether its tenor or bass, but it's not always like that. Today I played in a big cathedral. It was music for brass quartet and church organ with two trumpets, tenor and bass trombone. The bass trombone was a Gerdt Bb/F/D indi double valve. I used my Gerd model 216 Bb/G .500 tenor trombone. We match real well. To get a broader sound I used my Shires MG-signature mouthpiece that has great both low and high register. I could scale up to and play a .525 or a .547 horn with no problem too in that context and then I would have played a Hammond 12M or 12MXL. All this larger bore trombones is mostly because it helps to get me in the right mood for classical and of course it depends on what the other members use and what parts we play. If it was in an orchestra I had probably not choosen a .500 horn if not for some specific reason. There I usually play .525 or .547 for deeper sound. If I play jazz I still use a .500 or smaller and change to a Bach 11C to give more brilliance and crisp as well as more endurance. When considering gears for bass trombone I do the same. I use a "lighter" horn for big band that projects well like my Kanstul 1662, King 6B or Conn 73H or I use one of my "lighter" sounding single triggers: Conn 71H, Conn 72H, Olds P21, Holton 169, Yamaha 321, 322 or Holton TR183. I use mouthpieces from Bach 2G to Laskey 93D. This is for jazz and pop. If I would get a more classical job I could still use those but also Conn 62H, Bach 50, Holton TR180, Holton TR185 and Benge 290. I would use the same mouthpieces and maybe add a Laskey 95D if needed.
I'd probably go for a darker more mellow sound in classical compared to jazz/pop. The same with tenor. You listen and adopt.
/Tom
I'd probably go for a darker more mellow sound in classical compared to jazz/pop. The same with tenor. You listen and adopt.
/Tom
- deanmccarty
- Posts: 224
- Joined: May 01, 2018
Don’t get too caught up in changing equipment. In the old days, guys played what they were given… stock horns. Sure, there were a few people out there customizing things. But for the most part people played stock horns. It’s really more about 1. Correct style, and 2. A good sound concept. I will delve into both:
1. Correct style… we are taught correct classical style from day one. Full value notes, deep breathing, opening up, tongue placement… all to get a great classical orchestral sound. For jazz style and sound most teachers back in the day didn’t really know much about jazz… some even despised it. Today, teachers are more well rounded, but still lack the complexities of the art form. First… LISTEN! You need to listen to all of the different big bands and hear their particular style. Each band leader or writer had their own concept of how much to lay back, or how much in front of the beat to place a note. In general, as a bass trombonist, you must always lay on the front side of the beat in order not to drag. Most young players tend to drag, and play incorrect styles… and… they just blat a lot. Which brings me to the next point…
2. Sound concept: Listen to the great big band players… they all sound different, just like the tenor players. But you will develop the sound in your head that you want… which will most likely be a combination of everyone you’ve listened to… but that sound will become uniquely yours. George Roberts, Dave Taylor, Bill Reichenbach, Ernie Tack, Kenny Shroyer, Jim Amlotte, Bob Knight, Paul Faulise, Dudley Hinote, and Phil Teele is a great list to start with. You mentioned how easy it is to change sounds on tenor because of equipment. Keep in mind that the gargantuan tenors of today are NOT what was written for by early 20th century and prior composers. Bore sizes were all mostly under .500. With that said… I understand that the large tenor is what is expected today. But you can really round out the sound of a .500 bore trombone if you just open up, and make your sound concept do the work for you. Will you sound like a .547 bore instrument? No, but you CAN completely change the sound of a small horn. The same is true of bass… if you listen to Dave Taylor playing with Grover Washington Jr. in the 70s, and then turn around and listen to him play Gabrielli with the New York Trumpet Ensemble you would swear that it’s different players. Same guy, same equipment… just different sounds in his head allowing his brain to make the needed changes in vowel shape, tongue placement, even airflow. It all makes a difference.
To make it simple… make sure you are accurate on your time… and do a LOT of listening.
1. Correct style… we are taught correct classical style from day one. Full value notes, deep breathing, opening up, tongue placement… all to get a great classical orchestral sound. For jazz style and sound most teachers back in the day didn’t really know much about jazz… some even despised it. Today, teachers are more well rounded, but still lack the complexities of the art form. First… LISTEN! You need to listen to all of the different big bands and hear their particular style. Each band leader or writer had their own concept of how much to lay back, or how much in front of the beat to place a note. In general, as a bass trombonist, you must always lay on the front side of the beat in order not to drag. Most young players tend to drag, and play incorrect styles… and… they just blat a lot. Which brings me to the next point…
2. Sound concept: Listen to the great big band players… they all sound different, just like the tenor players. But you will develop the sound in your head that you want… which will most likely be a combination of everyone you’ve listened to… but that sound will become uniquely yours. George Roberts, Dave Taylor, Bill Reichenbach, Ernie Tack, Kenny Shroyer, Jim Amlotte, Bob Knight, Paul Faulise, Dudley Hinote, and Phil Teele is a great list to start with. You mentioned how easy it is to change sounds on tenor because of equipment. Keep in mind that the gargantuan tenors of today are NOT what was written for by early 20th century and prior composers. Bore sizes were all mostly under .500. With that said… I understand that the large tenor is what is expected today. But you can really round out the sound of a .500 bore trombone if you just open up, and make your sound concept do the work for you. Will you sound like a .547 bore instrument? No, but you CAN completely change the sound of a small horn. The same is true of bass… if you listen to Dave Taylor playing with Grover Washington Jr. in the 70s, and then turn around and listen to him play Gabrielli with the New York Trumpet Ensemble you would swear that it’s different players. Same guy, same equipment… just different sounds in his head allowing his brain to make the needed changes in vowel shape, tongue placement, even airflow. It all makes a difference.
To make it simple… make sure you are accurate on your time… and do a LOT of listening.