Markey on developing low range

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-05-07 8:32 p.m.

A new YT series on developing low range on bass trombone:

<YOUTUBE id="0zbfyhzRmF8">https://youtu.be/0zbfyhzRmF8?si=QXMc3OXhqdRpJMMH</YOUTUBE>

RustBeltBass · by **RustBeltBass** » 2024-05-07 8:35 p.m.

Amazing and inspiring how much knowledge and wisdom he shares with the trombone world in his free time. Very helpful !!

His sound is unbelievable.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2024-05-08 3:15 p.m.

I can't wait to watch this one

Bach5G · 2024-05-14 8:42 p.m.

Wk 2 is up.

<YOUTUBE id="l7wVVSwCcCk">https://youtu.be/l7wVVSwCcCk?si=cslgt8Wm0xKf_1PQ</YOUTUBE>

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-14 8:53 p.m.

Played along with both today. Good stuff.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2024-05-16 3:42 p.m.

I have been doing these exercises for the past week and a half and I'm already noticing a difference in my ability to keep my embouchure more stable and make less drastic movements. I play Wave every month with a big band on bass bone and this past Tuesday was the best I've ever played it - I was able to find the center of each note much more easily than in the past and more often.

I know from my lessons with Doug Elliott that I'm supposed to minimize movements as much as possible. These exercises have shown me how much I'm still moving when changing notes, even when I think I'm not. And I still have some work to do to get to where I want to be.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-05-21 6:18 p.m.

#3: <YOUTUBE id="AqB3BpLbwnI">https://youtu.be/AqB3BpLbwnI?si=_K5c0UIgRqON8t20</YOUTUBE>

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-05-28 2:21 p.m.

#4:

<YOUTUBE id="iJUnm-044Z0">https://youtu.be/iJUnm-044Z0?si=93m9piZUTRbePr1o</YOUTUBE>

I’ve been doing these for the past 3 weeks with good results I think. A brief warmup and then play along with Mr. Markey. If nothing else, a nice way to start the day. Mr. Markey’s positivity is an added bonus.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2024-05-29 11:34 a.m.

I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure. I'm doing great with Part 1 and Part 2, so I've moved onto Part 3. That's where things start to get a bit shaky. About 50% of the time I'm not able to center the notes exactly the way that I want when I slur between 3rds and 4ths. So I will stick with the Part 3 exercise for a while until my success rate improves up to at least 75%.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-05-30 10:07 a.m.

[quote="JeffBone44"]I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure.[/quote]

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2024-05-30 1:36 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="JeffBone44" post_id="243981" time="1716996875" user_id="15834">
I've been doing these with positive results too. Again, as I said previously, it's been reinforcing much of what Doug Elliott taught me about my embouchure.[/quote]

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.
</QUOTE>

The exercises start on middle F, so I'm trying to keep that same embouchure setting and extend that down into the low range. By practicing that, I'm able to minimize the movements that I have to make and still keep a good sound. This is improving my flexibility. The more I do this, the easier it will become to switch registers quickly.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-05-30 8:56 p.m.

[quote="JeffBone44"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="244066" time="1717078069" user_id="211">

Are you doing anything different to be sure you can "get back up," after so long down low? (meaning you didn't drift down into a different low range setting)

I'm doing them too, but trying to stay conscious of Doug's advice on correct embouchure, and that's a bit of a challenge. I haven't attempted 3 yet, spent a week on 1 and working 2 now.[/quote]

The exercises start on middle F,
</QUOTE>

Yes. That's too low a starting note for me in general.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-30 9:45 p.m.

I've been following these videos and doing the exercises. My high range has gotten better from playing these. The idea is that you stay engaged with the embouchure as you play lower (something many players don't do, which means when they ascend again they are too flabby).

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2024-05-31 12:00 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I've been following these videos and doing the exercises. My high range has gotten better from playing these. The idea is that you stay engaged with the embouchure as you play lower (something many players don't do, which means when they ascend again they are too flabby).[/quote]

That's definitely something to think about, and I am working on that as well. In general when switching ranges my embouchure automatically becomes flabby.

SimmonsTrombone · by **SimmonsTrombone** » 2024-06-01 6:31 a.m.

They remind me a bit of the note matching Sam Burris taught when mouthpiece buzzing.

musicofnote · 2024-06-02 6:21 a.m.

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musicofnote · 2024-06-02 6:33 a.m.

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musicofnote · 2024-06-02 11:37 a.m.

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musicofnote · 2024-06-02 11:51 a.m.

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Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-02 1:27 p.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]

"the “shift” starts on pedal g going down without a shift - the tone fades

lowest being a soft pedal d.

With his shift “… allowing myself to make a change”

diametrically opposed to Mr. Gilford."[/quote]

No, actually that's exactly where Matt said he was as an undergrad.

Matt's learned a lot in his 33 years in the NSO.

Charlie Vernon used to shft a lot, now he doesn't. I knew him all the way back when he was in the Baltimore Symphony.

Markey's still learning.

People who advocate shifting like the instant gratification, but haven't really learned much yet.

musicofnote · 2024-06-02 2:21 p.m.

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Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-06-02 2:22 p.m.

Well... that said a whole lot of nothing.

musicofnote · 2024-06-02 2:23 p.m.

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Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-02 2:39 p.m.

Well you just pointed out how his attitude has changed in 6 years. Don't you think it would be interesting to see where he is in another 6, or 20, or 30 years?

I like to use Charlie as an example. I've been watching his playing as it's evolved for 50 years.

Playing mechanics either evolve better, or fall apart. Take your choice.

musicofnote · 2024-06-02 2:56 p.m.

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Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-02 3:09 p.m.

You wanna bring Phil Teele into this? He advocated no shifting but never really talked about how to accomplish that.

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.

musicofnote · 2024-06-02 3:16 p.m.

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Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-06-02 3:18 p.m.

Teele has several YT videos demonstrating his approach.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-06-02 7:40 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"].

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.[/quote]

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2024-06-02 8:16 p.m.

A lot of trombonists play flat, and that's usually ok. Listening to the latest round if ITF recitals, most people were under the piano tuning. I think that as orchestral and section musicians we lower our 3rds and 7ths using just intonation to make the chords ring, so often that when we play with piano we forget to be "on top" of the pitch as much as needed.

Also tuning with a tuner can be useful to find a baseline of pitch and make sure we don't drift radically far, but by itself it doesn't do a lot else. Tuning is contextual. You can be dead on at A-440 and be slightly wrong most of the time in the industry.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2024-06-02 8:24 p.m.

The whole shifting question is interesting, but I can't see there being one universal rule for everyone, like swinging a baseball bat or throwing a football (let alone painting! we are an art as much as a physical activity.)

I like to recommend Minimal Motion for Maximum Efficiency (I've said it enough now that it's in caps), but if the sound is reliably good, reproducible, and not causing discomfort of any sort, then I don't mess much with the production unless a certain barrier or plateau is being encountered.

Jim's exercises are solid - I personally feel they might be a touch on the loud side, but it makes sense with his job.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-06-02 8:28 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="244294" time="1717355365" user_id="51">
.

Maybe Markey left out pedals for a reason. Connecting "tenor" range to trigger range is a start toward eliminating the pedal shift.[/quote]

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.
</QUOTE>

Mine was doing the same. I wouldn't worry so much about matching him and having it match the tuner.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-06-02 9:21 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="244321" time="1717371652" user_id="211">

That was the reason for my question above. The idea is to connect, but not to lose the tenor range when staying in the trigger range for so long. But how to ensure?

I've done a week each of 1 and 2. A curious thing, my ear says I'm matching his pitch and my tuner says I'm flat.[/quote]

Mine was doing the same. I wouldn't worry so much about matching him and having it match the tuner.
</QUOTE>

That’s a relief. I thought the same thing.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-06-03 9:10 a.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]

Also tuning with a tuner can be useful to find a baseline of pitch and make sure we don't drift radically far, but by itself it doesn't do a lot else. Tuning is contextual. You can be dead on at A-440 and be slightly wrong most of the time in the industry.[/quote]

As a tenor player with a valve, this is the most concentrated effort I've made using it a lot and there are some tuning quirks I need to improve.

I've also tentatively concluded we amateurs should use trigger instead of 6th and 7th whenever possible, because it's easy to make a small adjustment and stay in tune, whereas that's difficult to impossible when your arm is stretched way out.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-03 9:18 a.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]A lot of trombonists play flat, and that's usually ok. Listening to the latest round if ITF recitals, most people were under the piano tuning. I think that as orchestral and section musicians we lower our 3rds and 7ths using just intonation to make the chords ring, so often that when we play with piano we forget to be "on top" of the pitch as much as needed.[/quote]

I don't think this is okay. People playing flat as a rule doesn't sound nice to me. The way classical trombonists are (not) trained to play melodies and (not) trained to play with 12tet ensembles leaves a lot to be desired. Violinists harp on ensemble tuning vs soloistic intonation, why can't we? The instinct, like you say, is to lower the 3rds and 7ths but when you play in a recital, where you have the melody, the right thing to do is to actually raise your 3rds and 7ths in major scales.

<YOUTUBE id="buZOs-czOUg">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/buZOs-czOUg?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>

<YOUTUBE id="QaYOwIIvgHg">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/QaYOwIIvgHg?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>

The really crazy thing is that even in pop music they have this figured out -- Melodyne is one of the industry standards for pitch correction and it will default to Pythagorean tuning for the key you're in, and they will linearly tune the lead singer to Pythagorean scales (you literally drag the box out linearly along the melodic line). For chords, 12TET would be most common so for the notes that are held out they select the chord vertically by dragging, and tune it to 12TET if necessary. Of course, just intonation is also an option for folk groups so you can also build the just chord vertically as a compromise, built around the Pythagorean pitch of the main melody, or compromise all the notes including the melody to JI within the 12TET "anchor".

That is to say, even the general public subconsciously has an ear for this kind of tuning, but classical trombonists often default to flat thirds and 7ths while playing the melody. Doh!

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-06-03 12:42 p.m.

I’m reminded of a local conductor’s comment: it’s better to be sharp than out of tune.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-03 1:44 p.m.

There's definitely some truth to that for higher instruments. Maybe not so much for lower instruments. Stretched octaves sound good.

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-06-19 12:49 p.m.

I know I'm very late to the party but I started doing the first video with my G ContraBass starting on middle D and moving down. This has done wonders for my sound, control and intonation.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-06-19 12:58 p.m.

These videos have changed my playing a LOT for the better, on all instruments.

Anyway, in reference to Markey being flat, I think it's a byproduct of the camera or recording. There's no way someone that has to play at 441 or 442 at work is casually playing at 438 in 4 videos, back to back.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-06-19 3:28 p.m.

Maybe this thread can be pinned so it’s always easy to find?

Any suggestions as to how best apply this to tenor and to upper ranges?

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-06-19 4:13 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]I've also tentatively concluded we amateurs should use trigger instead of 6th and 7th whenever possible, because it's easy to make a small adjustment and stay in tune, whereas that's difficult to impossible when your arm is stretched way out.[/quote]

In 7th, you have the additional problem of the slide binding up because gravity keeps the outer from being parallel with the inner.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-06-22 7:42 a.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="244354" time="1717420220" user_id="211">
I've also tentatively concluded we amateurs should use trigger instead of 6th and 7th whenever possible, because it's easy to make a small adjustment and stay in tune, whereas that's difficult to impossible when your arm is stretched way out.[/quote]

In 7th, you have the additional problem of the slide binding up because gravity keeps the outer from being parallel with the inner.
</QUOTE>

Also, it can pull the mouthpiece away from optimal alignment with your chops. (Depending on your embouchure type, I guess it could improve it, if you need to pivot low and right for that note. But it would be better to do it in T2 and control it.)

chouston3 · by **chouston3** » 2024-06-23 1:42 a.m.

When working on not shifting for pedals, do you start with the highest pedal you can play without shifting and then slowly stretch down into lower notes?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-23 2:09 a.m.

This is from my perspective, not Markey's:

It's sort of like that but it helps tremendously to understand how your particular embouchure works, as there are different embouchure types that need different things. Shifting becomes necessary when you're not doing the right things that your chops need.

musicofnote · 2024-06-23 3:33 a.m.

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Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2024-06-23 6:25 a.m.

<YOUTUBE id="KdFPYojfkF8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdFPYojfkF8</YOUTUBE>

Is this what you call shifting? Whatch the jaw bone.

Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2024-06-23 6:47 a.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]I was watching Doc Severinson and Arturo Sandoval the other day and it's remarkable how well they play in that they both shift quite a bit. Adam Rappa too. And interesting how they all shift in the same manner to acheive the same things. So either they're compensating through shifting for otherwise not supplying what their embouchures need, or their embouchures need shifting, so they ... shift.[/quote]

It would be nice to watch this players "shift", could you pleas post some clips? I am just curious to see what the shift is.

(Marks videos about low range is mostly about the trigger range so far, very good practicing methods. Not about shifting.)

musicofnote · 2024-06-23 7:17 a.m.

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musicofnote · 2024-06-23 7:47 a.m.

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musicofnote · 2024-06-23 7:50 a.m.

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musicofnote · 2024-06-23 8:00 a.m.

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Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-23 11:48 a.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="246009" time="1719122966" user_id="51">
This is from my perspective, not Markey's:

It's sort of like that but it helps tremendously to understand how your particular embouchure works, as there are different embouchure types that need different things. Shifting becomes necessary when you're not doing the right things that your chops need.[/quote]

So if I understand you, shifting should NEVER be necessary if you're playing correctly.

Or ...

Do you mean, that some embouchures do actually NEED shifting in order that the chops get what they need?

I was watching Doc Severinson and Arturo Sandoval the other day and it's remarkable how well they play in that they both shift quite a bit. Adam Rappa too. And interesting how they all shift in the same manner to acheive the same things. So either they're compensating through shifting for otherwise not supplying what their embouchures need, or their embouchures need shifting, so they ... shift.
</QUOTE>

Doc, Arturo, and Adam do not shift in the way that I use that term. However I haven't watched them recently. I mean actually moving the mouthiece to a different position on the lips, usually with a simultaneous jaw position change. Like falling off a cliff.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-23 12:20 p.m.

If someone isn't pivoting or moving their embouchure, they must just be holding a long tone on a single pitch.

musicofnote · 2024-06-23 12:31 p.m.

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Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2024-06-23 12:41 p.m.

According to Bradley shifting is moving the mouthpiece to a new place on the lips. But moving the jaw forward for low tones is not shifting say Bradley. Actually most brass players do that, it is much more noticeble on basstrombone, but you can see it on trumpeters to. There are many players that do shift though, (like Georg Roberts and many others) like said above usually from pedal G - F when playing very loud. The so called high embouchure. (usually with a simultaneous jaw position change. Like falling off a cliff.) I don´t know about that, it does not sound like something that would work? What does that mean?

Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2024-06-23 12:43 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]If someone isn't pivoting or moving their embouchure, they must just be holding a long tone on a single pitch.[/quote]
Yes! Something has to move! :good:

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-23 1:09 p.m.

But it doesn't have to move a mile (1.6km) for a half step difference. If if does, you weren't where you needed to be long before the shift.

Make it constantly variable, not a 2 speed transmission going from 1st to overdrive.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-06-23 1:10 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]

Make it constantly variable, not a 2 speed transmission.[/quote]

:idea:

Which is all that Markey is talking about in his videos.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-23 1:11 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="Doug Elliott" post_id="246053" time="1719162552" user_id="51">

Make it constantly variable, not a 2 speed transmission.[/quote]

:idea:

Which is all that Markey is talking about in his videos.
</QUOTE>
Yes... but it could be explained better.

BZP3I · by **BZP3I** » 2024-06-23 4:06 p.m.

Extreme interesting chat and opinions. As an amateur I have to admit that I struggle with constancy on all the repetations. I am now on video no. 2 and can feel that my very low range from video 1 although this is not even in the trigger range.

I will go on practicing and am shure it will help a lot.

Many regards from Germany

musicofnote · 2024-06-23 4:41 p.m.

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dbwhitaker · by **dbwhitaker** » 2024-06-23 6:01 p.m.

I've been doing the Markey routines and finding them helpful, i.e. I think my low register is improving. I'm not sure that I'm getting much out of looking in the mirror because I'm not sure what part of my face to be looking at. Much of Markey's face moves when he breathes at starts notes, primarily above and outside his corners, i.e. cheeks, etc. My face does the same. I think I'm keeping the part of my face below the corners still (I guess that's the important part) but can only adjust the mirror to see the right side of my face -- my hand blocks the left side. I think I get as much or maybe even more benefit putting the mirror away and simply paying attention to how my face feels.

I don't understand why Markey thinks the 4 videos are strictly progressive, i.e. suggesting only doing one set until proficient and then moving on to the next (and presumably not returning to earlier ones). To me they seem more like useful routines that can be repeated. For instance, the slurs of thirds, fourths, and fifths in video #3 seem useful even though I can't get my low trigger glisses in video #2 to fully sound the way I want them to yet. I've been rotating through the routines in videos 1, 2, and 3.

The patterns of the exercises seem completely suitable to be extended down into the pedal range.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-06-23 6:36 p.m.

I’m glad to have the videos and not have to wade through all this verbiage.

Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2024-06-24 1:05 p.m.

"falling off a cliff" ? I really do not understand what that means?

Marks videos are super. Right on.

JeffBone44 · by **JeffBone44** » 2024-06-26 1:56 p.m.

[quote="dbwhitaker"]I don't understand why Markey thinks the 4 videos are strictly progressive, i.e. suggesting only doing one set until proficient and then moving on to the next (and presumably not returning to earlier ones). To me they seem more like useful routines that can be repeated. For instance, the slurs of thirds, fourths, and fifths in video #3 seem useful even though I can't get my low trigger glisses in video #2 to fully sound the way I want them to yet. I've been rotating through the routines in videos 1, 2, and 3.

The patterns of the exercises seem completely suitable to be extended down into the pedal range.[/quote]

I've been doing some of each exercise every day too. If they were to be progressive it would be a long time before I got past video #2. I'm finding all of them to be helpful.

I've been extending some of these exercises into the pedal register too.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-06-26 3:23 p.m.

Having reached week 4, now what? Continue playing wk 4 indefinitely? Cycle back through wks 1-4? Play wk 1 today, maybe 4 tomorrow, wk 3 on Friday, depending on what seems effective (more glisses during weeks 1 and 2)?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-06-26 3:25 p.m.

I play one video a day, cycling through the 4.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-07-20 2:14 p.m.

I’ve been continuing to do these on my bass and tenor trombones as part of my daily routine. I played an outdoor concert a few weeks ago that went remarkably well in terms of chops, so maybe they’re making a difference.

What I’ve recently taken from these videos is what I think is the “process”, ie repeat until you have a decent sample size and assess: are you getting what you want? If yes, good. If no, why not? Etc. Then apply said approach to other aspects of your practicing.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-07-20 2:36 p.m.

Yup... these have been huge for me. Really solidified some good habits.

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Markey on developing low range