rotor designs

jackowa · by **jackowa** » 2024-05-10 12:55 p.m.

What's the strangest rotor designs you've ever seen? Pro's and Con's?

If you want to share your custom stuff I'll be glad to see it!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-05-10 1:56 p.m.

Holton monster "anti-tank" valve. Weird as heck.

The Shires trubores are weird to me, too.

mcphatty00 · by **mcphatty00** » 2024-05-10 2:55 p.m.

The Holton "monster" is mighty odd

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-05-10 3:00 p.m.

Super strange one is the Holton Monster valve

stewbones43 · by **stewbones43** » 2024-05-10 4:02 p.m.

I bet the guy who invented the Holton Monster Valve is really chuffed at the unanimous praise his valve has got!

Cheers

Stewbones

mcphatty00 · by **mcphatty00** » 2024-05-10 4:41 p.m.

I'm kinda bummed I've never run into one. It at least looks worth trying out.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-05-10 4:44 p.m.

The Olds rotor design with an internal spring and a hidden stop looks really clean, but the little O-ring on the stop post doesn't last all that long. You have to disassemble the valve to replace the o-ring. I carry spare o-rings and a rawhide mallet in my mute bag and can replace a bumper in under five minutes. Since the back bearing is not accessible, they drilled the screw hole extra deep and put in a cross passage at the bearing; to oil the back bearing, you remove the screw and drip oil down the hole.

Olds also made some French horns with dual-stop rotors and a system for taking up end play. They were made just before WWII and were not reintroduced after the war, so they're quite rare.

Bonearzt · by **Bonearzt** » 2024-05-10 5:10 p.m.

Weirdest design I've seen is where the tubing slides side to side to engage the F section!

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-05-10 6:35 p.m.

[quote="Bonearzt"]Weirdest design I've seen is where the tubing slides side to side to engage the F section![/quote]Oh yeah! I remember that one. I mean, it was an interesting design, but I can't imagine that it sealed particularly well. I stopped hearing about them.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-05-10 6:53 p.m.

I nominate the Bach K valve. Unless you had a pretty skinny neck it would dig in. Played pretty well, if you could tolerate it.

Slidennis · by **Slidennis** » 2024-05-11 1:15 a.m.

Hulot valve, from a french brass tech who patented it years ago :

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-05-11 7:37 a.m.

The Yamaha Japan-only rotor is also weird, as is the Yamaha Bousfield rotor:

<ATTACHMENT filename="s55_0572.jpg" index="2">~~[attachment=2]~~s55_0572.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

<ATTACHMENT filename="ccb_0244.jpg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~ccb_0244.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

But this one takes the cake -- a no rotor f attachment:

<ATTACHMENT filename="PhuAhgn.jpg" index="1">~~[attachment=1]~~PhuAhgn.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-05-11 10:56 a.m.

[quote="stewbones43"]I bet the guy who invented the Holton Monster Valve is really chuffed at the unanimous praise his valve has got!

Cheers

Stewbones[/quote]
Well, probably more annoyed that the design wasn’t optimized in the way he intended. Production models were more like functional prototypes.

Speaking of which, I’d like to have another 1 or 2 to build the forbidden double…

Cheers,

Andy

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-05-11 11:45 a.m.

Maybe doesn't meet the definition of a "rotor", but definitely the strangest valve design.

<YOUTUBE id="AEb3wlSvXrY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEb3wlSvXrY</YOUTUBE>

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-05-11 3:37 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]Maybe doesn't meet the definition of a "rotor", but definitely the strangest valve design.[/quote]

Ignoring the separate lever, it's just a cuboid piston.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-05-11 6:15 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]<QUOTE author="stewbones43" post_id="242645" time="1715371335" user_id="3880">
I bet the guy who invented the Holton Monster Valve is really chuffed at the unanimous praise his valve has got!

Cheers

Stewbones[/quote]
Well, probably more annoyed that the design wasn’t optimized in the way he intended. Production models were more like functional prototypes.

Speaking of which, I’d like to have another 1 or 2 to build the forbidden double…

Cheers,

Andy
</QUOTE>

Zig Kanstul incorporated most of the ideas from the Monster Valve into his CR (Constant Resistance) valve. It was one of the entrants in Round 2 of the Trombone Valve Wars. I don't understand why Holton released that valve in the state it was in.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-05-11 9:12 p.m.

The CR is "Nothing" like the Monster. The CR is a Greenhoe valve made with a casing and port inserts, instead of being machined from solid.

jackowa · by **jackowa** » 2024-05-12 4:46 p.m.

Appreciate everyone's opinion and the video . More relaxed here than other chat forums

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-05-12 5:54 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]

Zig Kanstul incorporated most of the ideas from the Monster Valve into his CR (Constant Resistance) valve. It was one of the entrants in Round 2 of the Trombone Valve Wars. I don't understand why Holton released that valve in the state it was in.[/quote]
Eh, nah. The monster has three internal pathways, more akin to a Trubore, Hagmann, or the Minick valves.

A brazed construction, sure, but different air paths.

Cheers,

Andy

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-05-12 7:01 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]The CR is "Nothing" like the Monster. The CR is a Greenhoe valve made with a casing and port inserts, instead of being machined from solid.[/quote]

I'll defer to your expertise, Matt. I'm sure you have disassembled more of both valves than I've seen in person.

In my defense, back in the day I saw images of what may have been CR prototype valves (I think it was on Steve Ferguson's website). The rotor had slightly bent tubing brazed into a pair of skeletonized supporting plates, with a pivot bearing in the center. That's awfully close to the Monster construction, although Andy says the Monster has a third tube--which would explain the crazy diameter of the Holton valve.

Until recently I've not seen later (production?) CR rotors. Those I've seen don't show the skeletonized pivots-and-plates structure I recall from the early CR images.

I do recall looking at the early pictures and wondering how Kanstul was going to build those things.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-05-13 1:45 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="242693" time="1715442342" user_id="4102">
Maybe doesn't meet the definition of a "rotor", but definitely the strangest valve design.[/quote]

Ignoring the separate lever, it's just a cuboid piston.
</QUOTE> Maybe a variation of pumpen valve? I mean it's the same basic concept, but rotated 90 degrees.

jonathanharker · by **jonathanharker** » 2024-05-14 8:24 p.m.

As it happens, I've recently been working on a commonplace about trombone valves, mostly for fun, but might one day become an article I'd like to publish somewhere, but more about that later/elsewhere perhaps. Along the way I've been collecting lots of useful diagrams and photos, or creating/taking them where they're not available, for instance:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... e_diagrams">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Brass_instrument_valve_diagrams</LINK_TEXT>

Could anyone who owns any of these weird valves, in particular a monster valve on the Holton TR140, or the Yamaha Bousfield (Minick) or "V" valves, please let me know if they'd be willing to take a nice photo for me/Wikipedia/posterity/future generations (i.e. release it as public domain, or Creative Commons CC-BY if you'd like to retain the photo credit). It would need to be on a plain white background, similar to this one for a Thayer valve. Thanks very much in advance, and just think, your nice photo might grace the pages of a journal some day! <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2024-05-15 4:12 a.m.

I am curious about this, seemingly new, valve design from Stomvi:

I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all. As I am on the lookout for a larger horn - a medium 0.525 or maybe a large 0.547 bore - I get very interested in trying their larger horns; especially if they have a new(?) rotor design.

Does anybody know anything about the larger Stomvi horns, or their new(?) rotor?

jonathanharker · by **jonathanharker** » 2024-05-15 6:06 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]But this one takes the cake -- a no rotor f attachment:[/quote]

That's a modern take on John Shaw's swivel valve (British patent 7892, granted 1838).
<ATTACHMENT filename="Shaw_1838_patent_diagram.png" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~Shaw_1838_patent_diagram.png</ATTACHMENT>
Tomes, F; Klaus, SK; Myers, A (2013) ~~[url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/44083112]~~"Shaw, Köhler and the Disc Valve in Britain", The Galpin Society Journal, Vol. 66 (March 2013), pp. 99-116.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-05-15 6:49 a.m.

Cool. Imagine getting your hair caught in it

jonathanharker · by **jonathanharker** » 2024-05-15 7:01 a.m.

[quote="Digidog"]I am curious about this, seemingly new, valve design from Stomvi:

Does anybody know anything about the larger Stomvi horns, or their new(?) rotor?[/quote]

They put a good video of it up, here: <YOUTUBE id="pNa3f7-OOXo">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNa3f7-OOXo</YOUTUBE>

ENBjorn · by **ENBjorn** » 2024-05-16 10:45 a.m.

Why have a valve when you can have no valve?

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=20707">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=20707</LINK_TEXT>

Really cool rotorless F-attachment for a super open blowing experience. Never tried it myself, but there's a video on Facebook or YouTube somewhere where Kissbone gives it a run for it's money with a Carnival exerpt. Check it out!

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-05-16 4:13 p.m.

The strangest valve I know of, is the Lindberg valve. If someone were to say they were going to drill a hole in the gooseneck of your trombone, and stick an empty piece of tube more than a half inch long poking off to the side, everyone would laugh them out of town. But for some reason it is ok inside a valve? I don't get it.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-05-16 4:30 p.m.

It works for plumbing... water hammer arrestor.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-05-16 5:25 p.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]The strangest valve I know of, is the Lindberg valve. If someone were to say they were going to drill a hole in the gooseneck of your trombone, and stick an empty piece of tube more than a half inch long poking off to the side, everyone would laugh them out of town. But for some reason it is ok inside a valve? I don't get it.[/quote]

But the CL valve works well ... doesn't it? I love the short throw!

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2024-05-16 5:52 p.m.

Any votes for the Olds Opera valve with internal spring?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-05-16 6:33 p.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]Any votes for the Olds Opera valve with internal spring?[/quote]
Mentioned earlier in the thread...

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2024-05-17 7:04 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="MrHCinDE" post_id="243097" time="1715896338" user_id="3472">
Any votes for the Olds Opera valve with internal spring?[/quote]
Mentioned earlier in the thread...
</QUOTE>

Apologies, I missed it.

Any chance you could create a video of that operation? I’ve recently acquired an Opera and the valve is good for now but I’d appreciate any help for future maintenance.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-05-17 7:11 a.m.

[quote="Digidog"]I am curious about this, seemingly new, valve design from Stomvi:

I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all. As I am on the lookout for a larger horn - a medium 0.525 or maybe a large 0.547 bore - I get very interested in trying their larger horns; especially if they have a new(?) rotor design.

Does anybody know anything about the larger Stomvi horns, or their new(?) rotor?[/quote]

This rotor doesn't include the Maxi Clapper so....

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-05-17 9:29 a.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]The strangest valve I know of, is the Lindberg valve. If someone were to say they were going to drill a hole in the gooseneck of your trombone, and stick an empty piece of tube more than a half inch long poking off to the side, everyone would laugh them out of town. But for some reason it is ok inside a valve? I don't get it.[/quote]

Obviously they "get away with" the acoustics in that particular application, based on sales/use, but the anomaly can't be an intrinsically good thing even if the otherwise straight passage has some (compensating?) advantages.

It would be interesting to see BIAS tests with the valve as is, and with the hernia plugged...

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-05-17 9:36 a.m.

[quote="Digidog"]I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all.[/quote]

With apologies for offtopicity... what are ~~[url=https://stomvi.com/en/products/instruments/trombones/tenor-bb]~~they like? The radii look slightly Bachisch, but I've never seen one in the wild.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2024-05-19 7:49 a.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="Digidog" post_id="242986" time="1715760754" user_id="4099">
I have only played a couple of Stomvi small bores, and was impressed by the builds but not the playing characteristics - which did not suit me at all.[/quote]

With apologies for offtopicity... what are ~~[url=https://stomvi.com/en/products/instruments/trombones/tenor-bb]~~they like? The radii look slightly Bachisch, but I've never seen one in the wild.
</QUOTE>

They felt Bach-y; with a quite centered feel in the bell and a solid feel from the tone in the low register up to medium high, but after that was where my playing obviously didn't suit the horns. I played three, and all felt like they lost broadness and flow of tone above C(5?) and to me they felt unstable above Bb(5?). One explanation to this, could have been the slides - or maybe the leadpipes - which gave me an unstable feel and choke-y sense when trying to play loud and high. I had problems finding a mouthpiece in the store that properly fit the leadpipe insert - almost all wobbled more or less.

This was some ten years ago, and I also remember them feeling well built and of good materials. Since then, I've heard much good about Stomvi, and I'm curious to try newer horns, both smaller and those medium/large with the Titán valve.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-05-19 10:01 a.m.

[quote="Digidog"]They felt Bach-y; [...][/quote]

Thanks for the info!

jackowa · by **jackowa** » 2024-05-28 8:39 a.m.

Appreciate everyone .

I am able to make the right choice from your advice

More relaxed here than other chat forums. Welcome . Happy to join the party

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