That was weird! OR Boy was I stupid!
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I just got a new small bore horn. I love it, but I had started to notice that with one of the lead pipes my fourth position notes felt very stuffy. But after changing to the other provided pipe I was getting the same effect.
I was in the middle of wondering whether that was something I could claim on warrantee, when in desperation I started sliding around to see how big the dead spot was. Doh! turns out my visual memory of where the top of the slide should be for fourth was about an inch and a half high for this horn.
I was forcing the pitch to be in tune for fourth position when I was really in 3.5. That explained the stuffiness. Problem solved! The horn slots beautifully everywhere as long I don't do stupid things...
I was in the middle of wondering whether that was something I could claim on warrantee, when in desperation I started sliding around to see how big the dead spot was. Doh! turns out my visual memory of where the top of the slide should be for fourth was about an inch and a half high for this horn.
I was forcing the pitch to be in tune for fourth position when I was really in 3.5. That explained the stuffiness. Problem solved! The horn slots beautifully everywhere as long I don't do stupid things...
- JLivi
- Posts: 870
- Joined: May 10, 2018
This has definitely happened to me in the past. My main player is a king 3b, but I also own and enjoy playing a conn 79h. If I'm not careful and paying attention the 79h is slightly sharp. The brace on the 79h slide that you hold is located a little farther down than on the 3b. So if I'm basing my slide positions on how it looks in comparison to the bell I will be sharp.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I recommend tuning your Ab instead of your Bb for this reason. The trombone will be "in tune" pretty much wherever you put the tuning slide. At least you will know where the bell is at tuning up your Ab to be where you want it to be.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I recommend not using your eyes
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
One of the first lessons you learn playing a bunch of different horns... just don't look.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I recommend not using your eyes[/quote]
It's a slippery slope to just not touching the tuning slide at all!
Or an uphill battle. I keep offering the Ab idea because it's a step up from Bb on the bumpers, and it teaches that the distance from the bumpers to the bell doesn't equal the distance of Bb to Ab.
It's a slippery slope to just not touching the tuning slide at all!
Or an uphill battle. I keep offering the Ab idea because it's a step up from Bb on the bumpers, and it teaches that the distance from the bumpers to the bell doesn't equal the distance of Bb to Ab.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Plenty of horns out there with the bell well before 3rd position.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
There was a list someone posted - maybe Doug E - that set out the distances between the receiver and bell rim for several horns. From recollection, varied from 10” to 11”.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I recommend not using your eyes[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>
I tune 3/8 inch off the bumpers or springs. I practice all scales in all keys varying the attack usually with a metronome, if it is available, as part of my warm up. My eyes are on the music and the conductor. For solos, I focus my ears on the rhythm section and unfocus my eyes. It may not always work, but at least I know when I am getting a dirty look from the director. :-)
<EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>
I tune 3/8 inch off the bumpers or springs. I practice all scales in all keys varying the attack usually with a metronome, if it is available, as part of my warm up. My eyes are on the music and the conductor. For solos, I focus my ears on the rhythm section and unfocus my eyes. It may not always work, but at least I know when I am getting a dirty look from the director. :-)
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]Plenty of horns out there with the bell well before 3rd position.[/quote]
I know they exist, but I never have played one or come across one. Those definitely throw dust in the face of my idea.
I won't argue with Doug because I know he plays with his ears, pushed in all the way. I pretty much play this way too. All my horns just so happen to put Ab within a cm of the bell pushed all the way in. I use my ears to play in tune, slot notes, and I get a great visual cue to see if the band is riding high or low using the bell. I'm not glued to it, but I'm not going to pretend like it isn't there
But Aidan, you play with your tuning slides pulled out. At some point you must use a physical or visual cue to do that. You're choosing to put your Bb somewhere, right? If so, it's as just as equally sinful as my suggestion.
So I turn the table back on you <EMOJI seq="1f482-2642" tseq="1f482-200d-2642-fe0f">💂♂️</EMOJI>. You shouldn't tune using your eyes or by physical feel. Push that thing in all the way and use your ears.
I only proposed one idea, since the OP is having trouble with visual cues around the bell. Sure, those are bad. There's more than one way to skin the giraffe.
I know they exist, but I never have played one or come across one. Those definitely throw dust in the face of my idea.
I won't argue with Doug because I know he plays with his ears, pushed in all the way. I pretty much play this way too. All my horns just so happen to put Ab within a cm of the bell pushed all the way in. I use my ears to play in tune, slot notes, and I get a great visual cue to see if the band is riding high or low using the bell. I'm not glued to it, but I'm not going to pretend like it isn't there
But Aidan, you play with your tuning slides pulled out. At some point you must use a physical or visual cue to do that. You're choosing to put your Bb somewhere, right? If so, it's as just as equally sinful as my suggestion.
So I turn the table back on you <EMOJI seq="1f482-2642" tseq="1f482-200d-2642-fe0f">💂♂️</EMOJI>. You shouldn't tune using your eyes or by physical feel. Push that thing in all the way and use your ears.
I only proposed one idea, since the OP is having trouble with visual cues around the bell. Sure, those are bad. There's more than one way to skin the giraffe.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
I just tune Bb to a bit off the bumpers on every horn. After that it's all ears.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]One of the first lessons you learn playing a bunch of different horns... just don't look.[/quote]
[quote="Burgerbob"]I just tune Bb to a bit off the bumpers on every horn. After that it's all ears.[/quote]
:good:
/Tom
[quote="Burgerbob"]I just tune Bb to a bit off the bumpers on every horn. After that it's all ears.[/quote]
:good:
/Tom
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="242959" time="1715717375" user_id="3131">
Plenty of horns out there with the bell well before 3rd position.[/quote]
I know they exist, but I never have played one or come across one. Those definitely throw dust in the face of my idea.
I won't argue with Doug because I know he plays with his ears, pushed in all the way. I pretty much play this way too. All my horns just so happen to put Ab within a cm of the bell pushed all the way in. I use my ears to play in tune, slot notes, and I get a great visual cue to see if the band is riding high or low using the bell. I'm not glued to it, but I'm not going to pretend like it isn't there
But Aidan, you play with your tuning slides pulled out. At some point you must use a physical or visual cue to do that. You're choosing to put your Bb somewhere, right? If so, it's as just as equally sinful as my suggestion.
So I turn the table back on you <EMOJI seq="1f482-2642" tseq="1f482-200d-2642-fe0f">💂♂️</EMOJI>. You shouldn't tune using your eyes or by physical feel. Push that thing in all the way and use your ears.
</QUOTE>
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom
Plenty of horns out there with the bell well before 3rd position.[/quote]
I know they exist, but I never have played one or come across one. Those definitely throw dust in the face of my idea.
I won't argue with Doug because I know he plays with his ears, pushed in all the way. I pretty much play this way too. All my horns just so happen to put Ab within a cm of the bell pushed all the way in. I use my ears to play in tune, slot notes, and I get a great visual cue to see if the band is riding high or low using the bell. I'm not glued to it, but I'm not going to pretend like it isn't there
But Aidan, you play with your tuning slides pulled out. At some point you must use a physical or visual cue to do that. You're choosing to put your Bb somewhere, right? If so, it's as just as equally sinful as my suggestion.
So I turn the table back on you <EMOJI seq="1f482-2642" tseq="1f482-200d-2642-fe0f">💂♂️</EMOJI>. You shouldn't tune using your eyes or by physical feel. Push that thing in all the way and use your ears.
</QUOTE>
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I recommend not using your eyes[/quote]
Thank you!!!!!!
Thank you!!!!!!
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="242963" time="1715720254" user_id="3642">
I know they exist, but I never have played one or come across one. Those definitely throw dust in the face of my idea.
I won't argue with Doug because I know he plays with his ears, pushed in all the way. I pretty much play this way too. All my horns just so happen to put Ab within a cm of the bell pushed all the way in. I use my ears to play in tune, slot notes, and I get a great visual cue to see if the band is riding high or low using the bell. I'm not glued to it, but I'm not going to pretend like it isn't there
But Aidan, you play with your tuning slides pulled out. At some point you must use a physical or visual cue to do that. You're choosing to put your Bb somewhere, right? If so, it's as just as equally sinful as my suggestion.
So I turn the table back on you <EMOJI seq="1f482-2642" tseq="1f482-200d-2642-fe0f">💂♂️</EMOJI>. You shouldn't tune using your eyes or by physical feel. Push that thing in all the way and use your ears.[/quote]
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
I know they exist, but I never have played one or come across one. Those definitely throw dust in the face of my idea.
I won't argue with Doug because I know he plays with his ears, pushed in all the way. I pretty much play this way too. All my horns just so happen to put Ab within a cm of the bell pushed all the way in. I use my ears to play in tune, slot notes, and I get a great visual cue to see if the band is riding high or low using the bell. I'm not glued to it, but I'm not going to pretend like it isn't there
But Aidan, you play with your tuning slides pulled out. At some point you must use a physical or visual cue to do that. You're choosing to put your Bb somewhere, right? If so, it's as just as equally sinful as my suggestion.
So I turn the table back on you <EMOJI seq="1f482-2642" tseq="1f482-200d-2642-fe0f">💂♂️</EMOJI>. You shouldn't tune using your eyes or by physical feel. Push that thing in all the way and use your ears.[/quote]
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="242997" time="1715778800" user_id="3173">
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom[/quote]
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
</QUOTE>
I play as flat as I dare :D It is the truth.
/Tom
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom[/quote]
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
</QUOTE>
I play as flat as I dare :D It is the truth.
/Tom
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="VJOFan"]I was in the middle of wondering whether that was something I could claim on warrantee, when in desperation I started sliding around to see how big the dead spot was. Doh! turns out my visual memory of where the top of the slide should be for fourth was about an inch and a half high for this horn.
[/quote]
I just had a similar experience with visual memory. I got a weird bright spot in my glasses on the edge of the bifocal line, took them in to my eye doctor. The optician said she'd never seen anything like it, had no clue what caused it, but I had a full month of the two year warranty left so they'd just replace it.
Well, the new bifocal line is in a different place, right at the bell. I can't tell visually when I'm near it. I can feel it if I reach, but then the purists will sneer at me. I didn't tune at the bell anyway but it was somewhat of a reference point.
I have long played with the main pushed in but recently the tuner says I need to be out a half inch or so.
[/quote]
I just had a similar experience with visual memory. I got a weird bright spot in my glasses on the edge of the bifocal line, took them in to my eye doctor. The optician said she'd never seen anything like it, had no clue what caused it, but I had a full month of the two year warranty left so they'd just replace it.
Well, the new bifocal line is in a different place, right at the bell. I can't tell visually when I'm near it. I can feel it if I reach, but then the purists will sneer at me. I didn't tune at the bell anyway but it was somewhat of a reference point.
I have long played with the main pushed in but recently the tuner says I need to be out a half inch or so.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="242997" time="1715778800" user_id="3173">
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom[/quote]
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
</QUOTE>
I don't push my tuning slide all the way in usually (although I was taught that as a young player and it was the best thing I ever learned), but I rarely move it. It's all about the ears and being able to put the slide in the right place based on tonality, not some mechanical notion of where a particular position lies. Over time, you develop the skill of just playing the notes where they are in tune and you're not reliant on visual or muscle habits. And I don't play sharp.
Besides, every note is in a different place on the slide, anyway, depending on the harmonic function of the note in context with the music (see, "just intonation"). So if you're relying on your slide being in a particular spot, or it matters where your tuning slide is, you're playing out of tune. I'm not even a fan of teaching beginners that there are 7 positions because that just teaches people to rely on crutches, not ears.
Every note gets its own unique spot on the slide -- and I mean every note. That C I just played in tune in a certain spot can be out of tune in the exact same spot the next time it comes around, depending on the harmonic function of that C in the moment, and each moment is different.
There's no substitute for having big ears. Tuning slides aren't a fix. Knowing where the positions are in relation to the bell isn't a fix. At best those crutches get you in the general vicinity of the pitch but are still wrong. If you can play in tune, then just play in tune. If you can't, then go home and practice until you can, and don't worry about where your slides are.
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom[/quote]
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
</QUOTE>
I don't push my tuning slide all the way in usually (although I was taught that as a young player and it was the best thing I ever learned), but I rarely move it. It's all about the ears and being able to put the slide in the right place based on tonality, not some mechanical notion of where a particular position lies. Over time, you develop the skill of just playing the notes where they are in tune and you're not reliant on visual or muscle habits. And I don't play sharp.
Besides, every note is in a different place on the slide, anyway, depending on the harmonic function of the note in context with the music (see, "just intonation"). So if you're relying on your slide being in a particular spot, or it matters where your tuning slide is, you're playing out of tune. I'm not even a fan of teaching beginners that there are 7 positions because that just teaches people to rely on crutches, not ears.
Every note gets its own unique spot on the slide -- and I mean every note. That C I just played in tune in a certain spot can be out of tune in the exact same spot the next time it comes around, depending on the harmonic function of that C in the moment, and each moment is different.
There's no substitute for having big ears. Tuning slides aren't a fix. Knowing where the positions are in relation to the bell isn't a fix. At best those crutches get you in the general vicinity of the pitch but are still wrong. If you can play in tune, then just play in tune. If you can't, then go home and practice until you can, and don't worry about where your slides are.
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="242997" time="1715778800" user_id="3173">
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom[/quote]
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
</QUOTE>
That is silly. If you can´t find the first position, how do you expect to find all the other?
Besides, I happen to know that Tom play in tune. Allways.
I push my tuningslide all the way in and from there I use my ears. Yes Bb will be off the bumper and yes the intonation differs on different horns. I change often and each time I need some time to analyse when I switch but I do this quite fast now. Intonation issues is what I concentrate on when I warm up 2-5 minuter. Yes I allow some notes to be out of tune when I do this because then I adjust them and notice where the issues are on this particular horn. This is to check how to adjust.
/Tom[/quote]
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....
</QUOTE>
That is silly. If you can´t find the first position, how do you expect to find all the other?
Besides, I happen to know that Tom play in tune. Allways.
- JWHartley
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Apr 23, 2024
Every horn I have ever played has a slightly different tuning. I usually adjust the tuning slide to get the 1st position F or Bb in tune. But, even that changes with temperature and ensemble. Everything else changes with each horn. Each partial will have a different tuning, i.e. the slide position (4th) of the D in the staff isn't the same as the (4th position) D above the staff. Some horns are more consistent than others. The King Symphony from 1963 is different from the Conn 62H, is different from the Shires bass. You have to use your ears!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
<EMOJI seq="1f37f" tseq="1f37f">🍿</EMOJI>
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="Olofson"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="243000" time="1715780535" user_id="7573">
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....[/quote]
That is silly. If you can´t find the first position, how do you expect to find all the other?
Besides, I happen to know that Tom play in tune. Allways.
</QUOTE>
Do you EVEN READ my first sentence???
I'm sure this works for you so I'm not dissing you with this comment as we've never played together. But every other player I've worked with who pushes their main tuning slide all the way in and uses their ears always plays sharp. Always. It's only been a few players, 3/4, and they're all from a certain area. But....[/quote]
That is silly. If you can´t find the first position, how do you expect to find all the other?
Besides, I happen to know that Tom play in tune. Allways.
</QUOTE>
Do you EVEN READ my first sentence???
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]<EMOJI seq="1f37f" tseq="1f37f">🍿</EMOJI>[/quote]
Yeh get out the popcorn. Some people don't read what one writes.
Yeh get out the popcorn. Some people don't read what one writes.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Olofson"]
That is silly. If you can´t find the first position, how do you expect to find all the other?[/quote]
You don't play the positions, you play the notes. Once you know where one note lies on the horn, you know where all the others do, depending on their harmonic function at the moment. Where do you play this note?
:bassclef: :line5:
If it's the Maj7 in a Bb chord you play it in a different place on the slide than if its the third in an F major chord, or the fifth in an A minor chord, right?
That is silly. If you can´t find the first position, how do you expect to find all the other?[/quote]
You don't play the positions, you play the notes. Once you know where one note lies on the horn, you know where all the others do, depending on their harmonic function at the moment. Where do you play this note?
:bassclef: :line5:
If it's the Maj7 in a Bb chord you play it in a different place on the slide than if its the third in an F major chord, or the fifth in an A minor chord, right?
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
It’s not that I meant to visually reckon my slide positions or consciously do that when I play. I just caught myself in a habit from a decade of only playing my Bach 42. If it wouldn’t have resulted in dropping my horn, the realization of what I was doing would have been a giant face palm moment.