Not to spark controversy, but...
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Db minor is Db E Ab. Etc. Guys from Berklee don't get that.
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
Yep.
- brtnats
- Posts: 341
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
I can’t tell if this is serious or not.
But an A# that’s the 3rd of an F# major chord is not the same note as a Bb that’s the 5th of an Eb major chord.
But an A# that’s the 3rd of an F# major chord is not the same note as a Bb that’s the 5th of an Eb major chord.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
In 12TET they are the same
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="brtnats"]I can’t tell if this is serious or not.
But an A# that’s the 3rd of an F# major chord is not the same note as a Bb that’s the 5th of an Eb major chord.[/quote]
No, but an A# that's the 3rd of an F# major chord is the same not as a Bb that's the 3rd of a Gb major chord.
And it's supposed to be a lighthearted thread, while still stating a truth! :)
But an A# that’s the 3rd of an F# major chord is not the same note as a Bb that’s the 5th of an Eb major chord.[/quote]
No, but an A# that's the 3rd of an F# major chord is the same not as a Bb that's the 3rd of a Gb major chord.
And it's supposed to be a lighthearted thread, while still stating a truth! :)
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
To be excessively pedantic, they are not the same note because they are perceived differently by the performer. A piece written in Bb will necessarily be performed differently than something in A# because few, if any, people ever are equally versed in reading in the key of Bb as they are A#
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Matt K"]To be excessively pedantic, they are not the same note because they are perceived differently by the performer. A piece written in Bb will necessarily be performed differently than something in A# because few, if any, people ever are equally versed in reading in the key of Bb as they are A#[/quote]
Yup, that was excessively pedantic, all right. :D
But as long as the only note I need to play in that piece (typical of many trombone parts :D ) is A#, I can play the stuffing out of it. :pant: 8-) :twisted:
Yup, that was excessively pedantic, all right. :D
But as long as the only note I need to play in that piece (typical of many trombone parts :D ) is A#, I can play the stuffing out of it. :pant: 8-) :twisted:
- officermayo
- Posts: 654
- Joined: Jun 09, 2021
Y'all would argue over just about anything. <EMOJI seq="1f604" tseq="1f604">😄</EMOJI>
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Awhile back song leaded introduced a new song in Gb. Jokingly told him brass instruments can’t play in that key, it’s gotta be F#, but I’ll try it today. After the service I told the leader I was only kidding, it doesn’t matter to me what key I play in. Did same song the following week in F#…boy did the guitar players moan! Been in Gb ever since.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I think there es absolutely no reason to write in a key that would require an A sharp. it just confuses people unnecessarily and our brain capacities are obviously (very) limited. Just play an A and point to your neighbour.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="officermayo"]Y'all would argue over just about anything. <EMOJI seq="1f604" tseq="1f604">😄</EMOJI>[/quote]
No we wouldn’t!
No we wouldn’t!
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Are Bb and A# really the same?
A. Both are played with the same slide position or valving
B. In the same octave they sound identical
C. Embouchure is the same for both, again if in the same octave.
D. Conclusion: This is a trick question!
E. Observations:
Really makes the guitar players think about where to put their capo
Drummer drools equally in either key
A. Both are played with the same slide position or valving
B. In the same octave they sound identical
C. Embouchure is the same for both, again if in the same octave.
D. Conclusion: This is a trick question!
E. Observations:
Really makes the guitar players think about where to put their capo
Drummer drools equally in either key
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="BrassSection"]Are Bb and A# really the same?
...
This is a trick question![/quote]
It wasn't a question at all until YOU asked it!
...
This is a trick question![/quote]
It wasn't a question at all until YOU asked it!
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="officermayo"]Y'all would argue over just about anything. <EMOJI seq="1f604" tseq="1f604">😄</EMOJI>[/quote]
“How did he drown in a puddle?”
It was a well, actually.
Cheers,
Andy
“How did he drown in a puddle?”
It was a well, actually.
Cheers,
Andy
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
sure about that?
<ATTACHMENT filename="subsemitones.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]subsemitones.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="subsemitones.jpg" index="0">
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
In B major, the A# will be considerably higher than a Bb in Bb major. They are not the same note.
You could argue they they are the same because Cb major's Bb will be just as high as the A# in B. But Cb major is far, far less commonly used than B major.
In 12TET they're exactly the same.
You could argue they they are the same because Cb major's Bb will be just as high as the A# in B. But Cb major is far, far less commonly used than B major.
In 12TET they're exactly the same.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
... or in 1/4 comma meantone with pure major thirds, A# is considerably lower than Bb.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]In B major, the A# will be considerably higher than a Bb in Bb major. They are not the same note.
You could argue they they are the same because Cb major's Bb will be just as high as the A# in B. But Cb major is far, far less commonly used than B major.
In 12TET they're exactly the same.[/quote]
Oh, you're such a trickster! It's the same note. It only changes when the harmonic function of the note changes, and when that happens they are still the exact same note.
You've got a false comparison there. You need to compare like to like. In B major the A# will be exactly the same as the Bb in Cb major, because they are the same note serving the same harmonic function.
You could argue they they are the same because Cb major's Bb will be just as high as the A# in B. But Cb major is far, far less commonly used than B major.
In 12TET they're exactly the same.[/quote]
Oh, you're such a trickster! It's the same note. It only changes when the harmonic function of the note changes, and when that happens they are still the exact same note.
You've got a false comparison there. You need to compare like to like. In B major the A# will be exactly the same as the Bb in Cb major, because they are the same note serving the same harmonic function.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I did say that. In Cb major, the Bb will be as high as A# in B major. That's for melodic, Pythagorean playing, btw.
The premise is kind of like posting a statement that says "If you put ice on your water, you risk watering it down". Technically true, but....
The premise is kind of like posting a statement that says "If you put ice on your water, you risk watering it down". Technically true, but....
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Like Einstein said:
E=Fb
E=Fb
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
"If it looks like a duck but clucks like a chicken..."
Interesting topic (even if meant originally as a joke). But yeah, nope. On a piano they're the same note, and there are contexts where they might be the same. And yeah sure you might argue that Bb in Gb major and A# in F# major are the same (although one might counter-argue that that's contingent on your F# and Gb being the same, which is absolutely not a given, because we could have the same question about them! :P ). I don't think that's a super useful comparison though. For this reason:
If you average out all the A# you've ever played, the majority will have been major thirds, that you needed to lower a lot. And when do you get a D# chord or an F double # minor? Virtually never. For Bb, you'll have relatively rarely played it as a major third, but will have played a ton of them as minor thirds (which need to be raised a ton) and as fifths. So, if you average out all of the A#'s you'll play in your life and all the Bb's, assuming you played all of them always in tune, you'd find that your average A# is indeed going to be much, much lower than the average Bb. Do that exercise with all the sharps and flats and you'll see the same pattern. Sharps tend to be low and flats tend to be high.
Quick aside: In the majority of the playing I do, we use meantone tuning (where everything is tuned for all major thirds to be pure without needing spontaneous adjustments). We have separate keys on some organs for the most commonly needed enharmonics Eb-D# and G#-Ab (and sometimes also Bb-A#), because they are, quite literally, not the same notes. To be precise, in that tuning system they are all 41 cents apart, or almost a quarter tone. You can do some really nice microtonal stuff with it! When we don't have the split keys, then we can't fudge it by using the other enharmonic, we just don't have the note. No D# key? No B major chord. In that tuning system, a trombone does not have 7 positions by the way, it has 4 diatonic or basically 11 chromatic positions.
And that's all just talking about pitch. But he difference in the typical roles you find them in is also reflected in voice leading and behaviour of the notes within the musical discourse. I'll offer yet another perspective: I play mostly at a=466, a half-step higher than 440. My first position on tenor is A, at the same pitch frequency as your equal tempered Bb and A# on a piano. But musically, my A is very much not a Bb or an A#, and neither is any other note compared to 440. The same pitches behave differently musically. Even on a technical level, the most typical slide motions are completely different than what felt usual at 440.
So, if on average two notes behave differently, fill different roles in the harmony and phrasing, and have different effective pitches, then why would you not say they are different notes?
Interesting topic (even if meant originally as a joke). But yeah, nope. On a piano they're the same note, and there are contexts where they might be the same. And yeah sure you might argue that Bb in Gb major and A# in F# major are the same (although one might counter-argue that that's contingent on your F# and Gb being the same, which is absolutely not a given, because we could have the same question about them! :P ). I don't think that's a super useful comparison though. For this reason:
If you average out all the A# you've ever played, the majority will have been major thirds, that you needed to lower a lot. And when do you get a D# chord or an F double # minor? Virtually never. For Bb, you'll have relatively rarely played it as a major third, but will have played a ton of them as minor thirds (which need to be raised a ton) and as fifths. So, if you average out all of the A#'s you'll play in your life and all the Bb's, assuming you played all of them always in tune, you'd find that your average A# is indeed going to be much, much lower than the average Bb. Do that exercise with all the sharps and flats and you'll see the same pattern. Sharps tend to be low and flats tend to be high.
Quick aside: In the majority of the playing I do, we use meantone tuning (where everything is tuned for all major thirds to be pure without needing spontaneous adjustments). We have separate keys on some organs for the most commonly needed enharmonics Eb-D# and G#-Ab (and sometimes also Bb-A#), because they are, quite literally, not the same notes. To be precise, in that tuning system they are all 41 cents apart, or almost a quarter tone. You can do some really nice microtonal stuff with it! When we don't have the split keys, then we can't fudge it by using the other enharmonic, we just don't have the note. No D# key? No B major chord. In that tuning system, a trombone does not have 7 positions by the way, it has 4 diatonic or basically 11 chromatic positions.
And that's all just talking about pitch. But he difference in the typical roles you find them in is also reflected in voice leading and behaviour of the notes within the musical discourse. I'll offer yet another perspective: I play mostly at a=466, a half-step higher than 440. My first position on tenor is A, at the same pitch frequency as your equal tempered Bb and A# on a piano. But musically, my A is very much not a Bb or an A#, and neither is any other note compared to 440. The same pitches behave differently musically. Even on a technical level, the most typical slide motions are completely different than what felt usual at 440.
So, if on average two notes behave differently, fill different roles in the harmony and phrasing, and have different effective pitches, then why would you not say they are different notes?
- bitbckt
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Aug 19, 2020
This thread is a great example of Cunningham’s Law. :clever:
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Just to maybe share a bit of my past nerdliness:
<YOUTUBE id="Bx2BjjCYPZE" list="PLK6lTgHGHVReqcPWnAG5BLA8npCh5whtR">[media]<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx2BjjC ... 8npCh5whtR">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx2BjjCYPZE&list=PLK6lTgHGHVReqcPWnAG5BLA8npCh5whtR</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>
Quarter comma meantone refers to the difference in interval of a 5-limit major third and the major third formed from stacking 4 perfect fifths. That difference is the comma, and thus the perfect fifth is "de-tuned" by a quarter of that so the stack of 4 perfect fifths ends up being the 5-limit major third.
The accidental notation I used there is Sagittal.
<YOUTUBE id="Bx2BjjCYPZE" list="PLK6lTgHGHVReqcPWnAG5BLA8npCh5whtR">
Quarter comma meantone refers to the difference in interval of a 5-limit major third and the major third formed from stacking 4 perfect fifths. That difference is the comma, and thus the perfect fifth is "de-tuned" by a quarter of that so the stack of 4 perfect fifths ends up being the 5-limit major third.
The accidental notation I used there is Sagittal.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]And it's supposed to be a lighthearted thread, while still stating a truth! :)[/quote]
There are no lighthearted threads. There are only lighthearted people. :lol:
There are no lighthearted threads. There are only lighthearted people. :lol:
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Working with the same idea, is a Bb in bass clef the same note as one in alto clef? Depending on your fluency with clefs and leger lines, one might be a lot more confident than the other.
This is why I advocate writing all trombone music on the piano great staff, or however much of it is needed for the range of the piece. Very few of us play above the treble clef top line. Bass players might venture below the bass clef G line, but rarely below a couple leger lines for most of us, and they're used to it. This eliminates learning clefs.
This is why I advocate writing all trombone music on the piano great staff, or however much of it is needed for the range of the piece. Very few of us play above the treble clef top line. Bass players might venture below the bass clef G line, but rarely below a couple leger lines for most of us, and they're used to it. This eliminates learning clefs.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
On every fourth Wednesday of the month, Bb is the identical pitch to A#, but on the first three Wednesdays they're both the same. Hope that clears it up.
- tim
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Apr 18, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]On every fourth Wednesday of the month, Bb is the identical pitch to A#, but on the first three Wednesdays they're both the same. Hope that clears it up.[/quote]
Yup, remember that's only when played in a booth, in the dark, in the back.
Love this thread, needed some lighthearted stuff today.
Yup, remember that's only when played in a booth, in the dark, in the back.
Love this thread, needed some lighthearted stuff today.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
When I was a saxophone player I could play F# and C# really well. But now I seem to have trouble with them and generally play Gb and Db instead. Also, I'm not sure that I can play Cb at all and have to fake it with B natural.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]On every fourth Wednesday of the month, Bb is the identical pitch to A#, but on the first three Wednesdays they're both the same. Hope that clears it up.[/quote]
And in July, which has five Wednesdays? :idk:
And in July, which has five Wednesdays? :idk:
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="LeTromboniste"]"If it looks like a duck but clucks like a chicken..."
...
So, if on average two notes behave differently, fill different roles in the harmony and phrasing, and have different effective pitches, then why would you not say they are different notes?[/quote]
Not to cast aspersions on the rest of us, but Maximilien's erudition and extensive explanation of this subject are WAY beyond us mere trombonists! :shuffle:
...
So, if on average two notes behave differently, fill different roles in the harmony and phrasing, and have different effective pitches, then why would you not say they are different notes?[/quote]
Not to cast aspersions on the rest of us, but Maximilien's erudition and extensive explanation of this subject are WAY beyond us mere trombonists! :shuffle:
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
Maybe more interesting as a theory? Composing and writing music. Playing? It's the same note on a piano. For us sliding through the life it can depend on chord and melodic function. For me it's best just to feel the function of the note wherever it shows up. And hope I hit the 3rd position :mrgreen:
Leif
Leif
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="ghmerrill"]When I was a saxophone player I could play F# and C# really well. But now I seem to have trouble with them and generally play Gb and Db instead. Also, I'm not sure that I can play Cb at all and have to fake it with B natural.[/quote]
It's a crutch, man.
It's a crutch, man.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="bitbckt"]This thread is a great example of Cunningham’s Law. :clever:[/quote]
I know right, I'm TONS of fun at parties! :shuffle:
I know right, I'm TONS of fun at parties! :shuffle:
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Has anybody ever seen an A# or Gb tuning fork?
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Our piano tuner uses them…I never looked thru his set though.
And what does your tuner show if you play an A# ?
And what does your tuner show if you play an A# ?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
No, all the ones I've seen are post-menopausal.
No, all the ones I've seen are post-menopausal.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
I've been carrying one in my bag for the last decade, which I don't recall using more than twice ever.
It doesn't specify the note, just the frequency, 415Hz. Not sure if that's an A or an Ab? Or is it a G#? or a G? Who knows! :pant:
I've been carrying one in my bag for the last decade, which I don't recall using more than twice ever.
It doesn't specify the note, just the frequency, 415Hz. Not sure if that's an A or an Ab? Or is it a G#? or a G? Who knows! :pant:
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
Used a tuning fork for years on a radar…
…but that’s a horse of a different color…
…but that’s a horse of a different color…
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="BrassSection"]Has anybody ever seen an A# or Gb tuning fork?[/quote]
Our handbell set has those notes marked both ways.
One of my ringers will say, "is the piece where I need the hashtag F?"
Our handbell set has those notes marked both ways.
One of my ringers will say, "is the piece where I need the hashtag F?"
- HornboneandVocals
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Oct 04, 2023
Here’s my unwanted opinion. I’ve played a professors orchestra piece that was essentially a study in just-intonation. Constant F# and Gb in very slightly different spots, same with Bb and A# and any harmonic equivalents. I actually had to adjust my 1st position to be half an inch from the rubber stops so that I can raise A# in a F# major chord. Also double F#’s that were in a quite sharp 4th position
The composer would yell if we weren’t perfectly and justly in tune (at the brass, I’ve been told string players are taught this incessantly from the start)
In this instance, they were different. <EMOJI seq="1f937" tseq="1f937">🤷</EMOJI>
The composer would yell if we weren’t perfectly and justly in tune (at the brass, I’ve been told string players are taught this incessantly from the start)
In this instance, they were different. <EMOJI seq="1f937" tseq="1f937">🤷</EMOJI>
- HornboneandVocals
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Oct 04, 2023
[quote="BrassSection"]Has anybody ever seen an A# or Gb tuning fork?[/quote]
A# tuning fork? Yes. I’ve seen sets with all 12 tones in naturals or sharps. Same with handbell sets in church.
A# tuning fork? Yes. I’ve seen sets with all 12 tones in naturals or sharps. Same with handbell sets in church.
- cigmar
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Years ago I conducted the musical "South Pacific". At one point there was a Gb harp glissando that segued between one song and the next. When it came to that point in dress rehearsal the harpist remained silent. During the break I pointed out that she needed to play this. She said she couldn't change her pedals fast enough between the two song keys to do this. Not knowing anything about harp limitations, I began searching for a pivot chord between the two keys that might work for her. Frustrated, at one point I jokingly said "Well, how about F#. She replied "I can do that". Dumfounded, I merely replied "OK, do that".
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="cigmar"]Years ago I conducted the musical "South Pacific". At one point there was a Gb harp glissando that segued between one song and the next. When it came to that point in dress rehearsal the harpist remained silent. During the break I pointed out that she needed to play this. She said she couldn't change her pedals fast enough between the two song keys to do this. Not knowing anything about harp limitations, I began searching for a pivot chord between the two keys that might work for her. Frustrated, at one point I jokingly said "Well, how about F#. She replied "I can do that". Dumfounded, I merely replied "OK, do that".[/quote]
Oy.
Oy.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
[quote="Kbiggs"]<QUOTE author="cigmar" post_id="244160" time="1717157592" user_id="87">
Years ago I conducted the musical "South Pacific". At one point there was a Gb harp glissando that segued between one song and the next. When it came to that point in dress rehearsal the harpist remained silent. During the break I pointed out that she needed to play this. She said she couldn't change her pedals fast enough between the two song keys to do this. Not knowing anything about harp limitations, I began searching for a pivot chord between the two keys that might work for her. Frustrated, at one point I jokingly said "Well, how about F#. She replied "I can do that". Dumfounded, I merely replied "OK, do that".[/quote]
Oy.
</QUOTE>
That actually makes sense! Harpists have 7 pedals (for the 7 letter names of pitches). Each pedal has a neutral position for the naturals, a flat position in one direction and a sharp position in the opposite position. The difficulty of the key modulation depends on how many pedals need to be shifted.
For the sake of making sense out of this, let’s assume that the key of the piece directly before the G-flat arpeggios was E major (4 sharps). This means that four pedals are in the sharp position and the other three pedals are in neutral position. A shift to G-flat major would involve moving all 7 pedals, 3 of them (C, G and D) moving two positions (essentially 10 shifts). If you go from E major to F# major, only 2 pedals (A and E) need to move 1 position each.
The problem in that particular situation is two-fold: 1. The editor of the harp book should have known that and should have written it in F# major. 2. The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!
Years ago I conducted the musical "South Pacific". At one point there was a Gb harp glissando that segued between one song and the next. When it came to that point in dress rehearsal the harpist remained silent. During the break I pointed out that she needed to play this. She said she couldn't change her pedals fast enough between the two song keys to do this. Not knowing anything about harp limitations, I began searching for a pivot chord between the two keys that might work for her. Frustrated, at one point I jokingly said "Well, how about F#. She replied "I can do that". Dumfounded, I merely replied "OK, do that".[/quote]
Oy.
</QUOTE>
That actually makes sense! Harpists have 7 pedals (for the 7 letter names of pitches). Each pedal has a neutral position for the naturals, a flat position in one direction and a sharp position in the opposite position. The difficulty of the key modulation depends on how many pedals need to be shifted.
For the sake of making sense out of this, let’s assume that the key of the piece directly before the G-flat arpeggios was E major (4 sharps). This means that four pedals are in the sharp position and the other three pedals are in neutral position. A shift to G-flat major would involve moving all 7 pedals, 3 of them (C, G and D) moving two positions (essentially 10 shifts). If you go from E major to F# major, only 2 pedals (A and E) need to move 1 position each.
The problem in that particular situation is two-fold: 1. The editor of the harp book should have known that and should have written it in F# major. 2. The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!
- cigmar
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]<QUOTE author="Kbiggs" post_id="244179" time="1717174514" user_id="172">
Oy.[/quote]
That actually makes sense! Harpists have 7 pedals (for the 7 letter names of pitches). Each pedal has a neutral position for the naturals, a flat position in one direction and a sharp position in the opposite position. The difficulty of the key modulation depends on how many pedals need to be shifted.
For the sake of making sense out of this, let’s assume that the key of the piece directly before the G-flat arpeggios was E major (4 sharps). This means that four pedals are in the sharp position and the other three pedals are in neutral position. A shift to G-flat major would involve moving all 7 pedals, 3 of them (C, G and D) moving two positions (essentially 10 shifts). If you go from E major to F# major, only 2 pedals (A and E) need to move 1 position each.
The problem in that particular situation is two-fold: 1. The editor of the harp book should have known that and should have written it in F# major. 2. The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!
</QUOTE>
I never knew any of that. Very enlightening. Thanks for the education.
Oy.[/quote]
That actually makes sense! Harpists have 7 pedals (for the 7 letter names of pitches). Each pedal has a neutral position for the naturals, a flat position in one direction and a sharp position in the opposite position. The difficulty of the key modulation depends on how many pedals need to be shifted.
For the sake of making sense out of this, let’s assume that the key of the piece directly before the G-flat arpeggios was E major (4 sharps). This means that four pedals are in the sharp position and the other three pedals are in neutral position. A shift to G-flat major would involve moving all 7 pedals, 3 of them (C, G and D) moving two positions (essentially 10 shifts). If you go from E major to F# major, only 2 pedals (A and E) need to move 1 position each.
The problem in that particular situation is two-fold: 1. The editor of the harp book should have known that and should have written it in F# major. 2. The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!
</QUOTE>
I never knew any of that. Very enlightening. Thanks for the education.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]
The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!
[/quote]
Trombone and tuba have acquired the reputation of being rather dim. In some cases, rightly so.
This harpist, however, is in a class all to themselves.
The harp player probably flunked music theory class and was not able to figure that out on her own!
[/quote]
Trombone and tuba have acquired the reputation of being rather dim. In some cases, rightly so.
This harpist, however, is in a class all to themselves.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Is this topic kind of like the Ignoble Prizes, in that it first makes you laugh and then makes you think?
The difference between Bb and A# is the context in which the note is presented. It's a "spelling" convention that helps musicians understand the harmonic and melodic role the note is providing at the moment.
e.g., We're playing a tune in A with a I-VI-ii-V turnaround. The VI chord (let's make it an F#7b9) contains an A# in context. It's better to think of it as an A# because that note is a leading tone to B. There are good arguments to be made that notating a melodic line for a musician to play with a Bb might read easier than an A#, but that's going to again depend on the context of the line and whether it makes it easier or harder to sight read. You don't necessarily have to have every accidental match the harmonic context for the 3rd trombonist or whatever, it's more about making the part easier to play.
Yes, we can discuss the specific intonation adjustments, but assuming that we're playing on a piano it's going to sound exactly the same.
As an aside, I play regularly with a self-taught guitarist. He thinks in terms of playing in the keys of A# and D#, even though I tease him about that. Imagine having to sight read a part notated in the key of A#.
Dave
The difference between Bb and A# is the context in which the note is presented. It's a "spelling" convention that helps musicians understand the harmonic and melodic role the note is providing at the moment.
e.g., We're playing a tune in A with a I-VI-ii-V turnaround. The VI chord (let's make it an F#7b9) contains an A# in context. It's better to think of it as an A# because that note is a leading tone to B. There are good arguments to be made that notating a melodic line for a musician to play with a Bb might read easier than an A#, but that's going to again depend on the context of the line and whether it makes it easier or harder to sight read. You don't necessarily have to have every accidental match the harmonic context for the 3rd trombonist or whatever, it's more about making the part easier to play.
Yes, we can discuss the specific intonation adjustments, but assuming that we're playing on a piano it's going to sound exactly the same.
As an aside, I play regularly with a self-taught guitarist. He thinks in terms of playing in the keys of A# and D#, even though I tease him about that. Imagine having to sight read a part notated in the key of A#.
Dave
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Wilktone"]As an aside, I play regularly with a self-taught guitarist. He thinks in terms of playing in the keys of A# and D#, even though I tease him about that. Imagine having to sight read a part notated in the key of A#.
Dave[/quote]
I had a friend who played trumpet and was obsessed with Herb Alpert. He had no musical theory at all and I'm not sure he knew trumpet music was in Bb.
But he patiently transcribed some Herb Alpert albums, including the guitar parts, all in Bb.
Dave[/quote]
I had a friend who played trumpet and was obsessed with Herb Alpert. He had no musical theory at all and I'm not sure he knew trumpet music was in Bb.
But he patiently transcribed some Herb Alpert albums, including the guitar parts, all in Bb.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
[quote="Wilktone"]As an aside, I play regularly with a self-taught guitarist. He thinks in terms of playing in the keys of A# and D#, even though I tease him about that. Imagine having to sight read a part notated in the key of A#.
Dave[/quote]
Hmmm? I really like to read music in the "opposite key." For some examples, I regularly switch pieces in G major in G-flat major, and pieces in B-flat major in B major. I usually max out with turning C major into C-flat major (7 flats) or C# major (7 sharps). Your proposed key of A# major sounds like a great mental exercise! A# major would 10 sharps....everything would be sharp except that F, C and G would be double sharp. I would definitely need two cups of coffee to start the day off in that key!
Dave[/quote]
Hmmm? I really like to read music in the "opposite key." For some examples, I regularly switch pieces in G major in G-flat major, and pieces in B-flat major in B major. I usually max out with turning C major into C-flat major (7 flats) or C# major (7 sharps). Your proposed key of A# major sounds like a great mental exercise! A# major would 10 sharps....everything would be sharp except that F, C and G would be double sharp. I would definitely need two cups of coffee to start the day off in that key!
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="musicofnote"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="244114" time="1717102380" user_id="3642">
Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
My neurologist has a A=220 tuning fork to measure surface sensitivity of my legs and feet due to my neuropathy. Huge thing. I have a A=442 one somewhere at home - have no idea when or why I got it.
</QUOTE>
That seems unusual to me. Most doctor's office (and physictist's) use C = 256 as a standard, which makes A a long way from 440. I worked out what it would be once but can't remember.
I have a G 384 Hz tuning fork I found at a thrift shop, again that's not to the 440 standard. (It's for summoning cosmic energy. New age stuff.)
Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
My neurologist has a A=220 tuning fork to measure surface sensitivity of my legs and feet due to my neuropathy. Huge thing. I have a A=442 one somewhere at home - have no idea when or why I got it.
</QUOTE>
That seems unusual to me. Most doctor's office (and physictist's) use C = 256 as a standard, which makes A a long way from 440. I worked out what it would be once but can't remember.
I have a G 384 Hz tuning fork I found at a thrift shop, again that's not to the 440 standard. (It's for summoning cosmic energy. New age stuff.)
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- leon
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Jun 26, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
Yes, mostly for otology and neurology exams, occasionally for orthopedic assessment and sometimes just for fun. It has been difficult to maintain a useful set do to "borrowing" since others do find tuning forks useful.
A special thanks to Maximilien for expressing so eloquently what I would have failed to say.
Yes, mostly for otology and neurology exams, occasionally for orthopedic assessment and sometimes just for fun. It has been difficult to maintain a useful set do to "borrowing" since others do find tuning forks useful.
A special thanks to Maximilien for expressing so eloquently what I would have failed to say.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="harrisonreed"]Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
When I was in school, the oboe players were still using tuning forks (mostly) to hear the "A" that they gave to the orchestra for tuning. Portable electronic tuners were fairly new at the time, and nobody was going to be carrying around one of those giant Conn strobotuners.
We also had to all get an "A 440" tuning fork for ear training class. When the teacher would give you an exercise to "sight-sing", you were expected to use your tuning fork to find an A, and then find the first note of the exercise by calculating the interval from that A to whatever was printed on the page in front of you. Then you would start singing it, calculating the intervals as you went.
The teacher also told us to strike the tuning fork and hold it up to our ear multiple times per day to help build a stronger sense of relative pitch. I'm sure there were other factors helping on this front, but I did find that my relative pitch did improve quite a bit in that year or two of study, and that I started to instantly recognize when a given tuning note was higher or lower than 440.
Obviously, tuners and apps on phones have replaced the tuning fork, but it had its use at the time. Timpani and Harp players used them for tuning their instruments too back then.
Jim Scott
When I was in school, the oboe players were still using tuning forks (mostly) to hear the "A" that they gave to the orchestra for tuning. Portable electronic tuners were fairly new at the time, and nobody was going to be carrying around one of those giant Conn strobotuners.
We also had to all get an "A 440" tuning fork for ear training class. When the teacher would give you an exercise to "sight-sing", you were expected to use your tuning fork to find an A, and then find the first note of the exercise by calculating the interval from that A to whatever was printed on the page in front of you. Then you would start singing it, calculating the intervals as you went.
The teacher also told us to strike the tuning fork and hold it up to our ear multiple times per day to help build a stronger sense of relative pitch. I'm sure there were other factors helping on this front, but I did find that my relative pitch did improve quite a bit in that year or two of study, and that I started to instantly recognize when a given tuning note was higher or lower than 440.
Obviously, tuners and apps on phones have replaced the tuning fork, but it had its use at the time. Timpani and Harp players used them for tuning their instruments too back then.
Jim Scott
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="OneTon"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="244114" time="1717102380" user_id="3642">
Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.
</QUOTE>
Oh, I hope not.
I just grabbed my calculator. (An old HP15C I used in college in the late 80s. You can't buy them anymore. RPN of course.)
According to it,
IF G = 384, then A = 431.0254. Also,
If C= 256, then G = 383.5666. And,
If A = 440, then G = 391.9954.
(caveat: all calculations assume equal temperament)
The purpose of a G 384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php">https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk/tuning_forks.php</LINK_TEXT>
Has anyone seen a tuning fork (actually used one), period?[/quote]
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.
</QUOTE>
Oh, I hope not.
I just grabbed my calculator. (An old HP15C I used in college in the late 80s. You can't buy them anymore. RPN of course.)
According to it,
IF G = 384, then A = 431.0254. Also,
If C= 256, then G = 383.5666. And,
If A = 440, then G = 391.9954.
(caveat: all calculations assume equal temperament)
The purpose of a G 384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php">https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk/tuning_forks.php</LINK_TEXT>
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="timothy42b"]The purpose of a G384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php">https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk/tuning_forks.php</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
I think I feel an ailment coming on.
Can't wait to get my set of C&G Body Tuners (C256cps & G384cps) so I can be "sound-healed!"
Of course C = 256 is a God-given frequency. (2^8)
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php">https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk/tuning_forks.php</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
I think I feel an ailment coming on.
Can't wait to get my set of C&G Body Tuners (C256cps & G384cps) so I can be "sound-healed!"
Of course C = 256 is a God-given frequency. (2^8)
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="245338" time="1718481141" user_id="13549">
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.[/quote]
Oh, I hope not.
I just grabbed my calculator. (An old HP15C I used in college in the late 80s. You can't buy them anymore. RPN of course.)
According to it,
IF G = 384, then A = 431.0254. Also,
If C= 256, then G = 383.5666. And,
If A = 440, then G = 391.9954.
(caveat: all calculations assume equal temperament)
The purpose of a G 384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php">https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk/tuning_forks.php</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>
Once more I have been gently corrected by TC. The love is palpable.
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.[/quote]
Oh, I hope not.
I just grabbed my calculator. (An old HP15C I used in college in the late 80s. You can't buy them anymore. RPN of course.)
According to it,
IF G = 384, then A = 431.0254. Also,
If C= 256, then G = 383.5666. And,
If A = 440, then G = 391.9954.
(caveat: all calculations assume equal temperament)
The purpose of a G 384 tuning fork is not to tune an instrument, but to heal any and all known ailments, mental and physical.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk ... _forks.php">https://www.collegeofsoundhealing.co.uk/tuning_forks.php</LINK_TEXT>
</QUOTE>
Once more I have been gently corrected by TC. The love is palpable.
- ldmitruk
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Nov 21, 2018
Isn't the best way to tune a banjo is with a chainsaw? :lol:
[/quote]
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I have used a g = 384 Hz to tune a banjo. I still have it somewhere, probably in a case. The difference between a banjo and a chainsaw is you cannot tune a chainsaw with a tuning fork.
[/quote]
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Savio"]Maybe more interesting as a theory? Composing and writing music. Playing? It's the same note on a piano. For us sliding through the life it can depend on chord and melodic function. For me it's best just to feel the function of the note wherever it shows up. And hope I hit the 3rd position :mrgreen:
Leif[/quote]
Yes, when I look at my piano Bb an A# are the same and when I press the key that produce Bb and think of Bb it sounds exactly like Bb and if I think A# it also sound like Bb. What if we just get rid of two thirds of all notes? Life would be a lot easier. No more a#
/Tom
Leif[/quote]
Yes, when I look at my piano Bb an A# are the same and when I press the key that produce Bb and think of Bb it sounds exactly like Bb and if I think A# it also sound like Bb. What if we just get rid of two thirds of all notes? Life would be a lot easier. No more a#
/Tom
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]
Yes, when I look at my piano Bb an A# are the same and when I press the key that produce Bb and think of Bb it sounds exactly like Bb and if I think A# it also sound like Bb. What if we just get rid of two thirds of all notes? Life would be a lot easier. No more a#
/Tom[/quote]
You will drive all the Gee-tar players (and many of the orchestral string players) nuts. They think in terms of shortening strings, not lengthening them. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
Yes, when I look at my piano Bb an A# are the same and when I press the key that produce Bb and think of Bb it sounds exactly like Bb and if I think A# it also sound like Bb. What if we just get rid of two thirds of all notes? Life would be a lot easier. No more a#
/Tom[/quote]
You will drive all the Gee-tar players (and many of the orchestral string players) nuts. They think in terms of shortening strings, not lengthening them. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]You will drive all the Gee-tar players (and many of the orchestral string players) nuts. They think in terms of shortening strings, not lengthening them. <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>[/quote]
Not to mention many woodwind players. Here's a quote from a sax player: "I guess it is just my brain, but a # presents no problems when I read music ( kindergarten level ), but a ‘b’ stops me dead and makes me consciously readjust, it just seems so unnecessary to have both formats."
Not to mention many woodwind players. Here's a quote from a sax player: "I guess it is just my brain, but a # presents no problems when I read music ( kindergarten level ), but a ‘b’ stops me dead and makes me consciously readjust, it just seems so unnecessary to have both formats."
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Hmmm
<ATTACHMENT filename="8071173E-DF55-42E0-9948-DB27407F0D22.jpeg" index="0">[attachment=0]8071173E-DF55-42E0-9948-DB27407F0D22.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>
<ATTACHMENT filename="8071173E-DF55-42E0-9948-DB27407F0D22.jpeg" index="0">
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="BrassSection"]Hmmm
8071173E-DF55-42E0-9948-DB27407F0D22.jpeg[/quote]
:lol: (in case anybody couldn't get it, the music is Beethoven's "Fur Elise")
8071173E-DF55-42E0-9948-DB27407F0D22.jpeg[/quote]
:lol: (in case anybody couldn't get it, the music is Beethoven's "Fur Elise")
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
Not to mention the D# notes…
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="VJOFan"]I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.[/quote]
Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.[/quote]
Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="VJOFan" post_id="245630" time="1718798701" user_id="2988">
I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.[/quote]
Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)
</QUOTE>
Or, print it in C, and instruct everyone to pull their tuning slide out. Way out.
I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.[/quote]
Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)
</QUOTE>
Or, print it in C, and instruct everyone to pull their tuning slide out. Way out.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The problem for us really goes back to our Arban's. Arban wrote exercises between 6 sharps and 6 flats for trumpet. They transposed it to C bass clef without reasoning why the exercises were in the keys they were. As a result we all worked between 4 sharps and 8 flats. So we never got to work in F# and B, but had to cope with Fb and Cb, very rare keys to encounter. At least the Alessi-Bowman edition goes back to the reasonable selection of keys and we work in B and F#, as we should always.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
More than that it is the band method books. They all start in concert Bb then go crazy and go to Eb and maybe Ab.
By the time C or G come up, the dye has been cast and flats are normal where as sharps are foreign.
Because of transposition others in the band feel it the exact opposite way
By the time C or G come up, the dye has been cast and flats are normal where as sharps are foreign.
Because of transposition others in the band feel it the exact opposite way
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="VJOFan" post_id="245630" time="1718798701" user_id="2988">
I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.[/quote]
Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)
</QUOTE>
Not in the least. As players develop they spend years knowing that when they see an A it will either be natural or flat. The same thing occurs with D. And a B is 'always" flat along with E. C's and F's are "always" natural. That means every note in the key signature goes against a player's earliest grade school training.
In Cb it's really just remembering the C and F are contrary to lizard brain grade 5 muscle memory.
The players in this group weren't music majors (play really well but didn't study per se) and so still see music with their public school training.
I subbed in a big band rehearsal last night. One of the charts started in Bb then shifted to B half way through. At some point in the past the trombones asked the band leader/arranger to reprint the trombone parts with the key change going to Cb instead.
The difference between B and Cb is about 100 fewer missed notes. Sad but true. I practice B major, but Cb major is still way more comfortable.[/quote]
Is this a joke? These trombone players are more comfortable in 7 flats than in 5 sharps? B is an extremely common key, Cb isn't. If this is real, perhaps the trombone players should leave the chart where it is and simply try to become more comfortable in B. (Of course, the real answer is that we should all be able to play in any key, right?)
</QUOTE>
Not in the least. As players develop they spend years knowing that when they see an A it will either be natural or flat. The same thing occurs with D. And a B is 'always" flat along with E. C's and F's are "always" natural. That means every note in the key signature goes against a player's earliest grade school training.
In Cb it's really just remembering the C and F are contrary to lizard brain grade 5 muscle memory.
The players in this group weren't music majors (play really well but didn't study per se) and so still see music with their public school training.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
content deleted by author
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Now that we’ve meandered into enharmonic territory…
Do you practice F-sharp and G-flat scales? B and C-flat? C-sharp and D-flat? Do you teach your students the difference?
Do you practice F-sharp and G-flat scales? B and C-flat? C-sharp and D-flat? Do you teach your students the difference?
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]Now that we’ve meandered into enharmonic territory…
Do you practice F-sharp and G-flat scales? B and C-flat? C-sharp and D-flat? Do you teach your students the difference?[/quote]
And of course all the related minor scales too?
Do you practice F-sharp and G-flat scales? B and C-flat? C-sharp and D-flat? Do you teach your students the difference?[/quote]
And of course all the related minor scales too?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I guess I'm lucky. I come from a time in the distant past where we were (or at least I was) forced to learn every scale and to play in every key. We would never dream of transposing the music because we didn't know it. We'd be forced to learn it.
Something tells me these same trombone players would have a stroke if faced with tenor or alto clef, especially in sharp keys! :D
Something tells me these same trombone players would have a stroke if faced with tenor or alto clef, especially in sharp keys! :D
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Ran into a similar issue a few years back. One of the bands I play in got a new Euphonium player. Really nice guy with a degree in music education from Indiana. We had two Euphonium books; one in bass clef and the other with a mixture of bass and treble. Guy couldn't play the treble book. When he had to read a piece in treble I'd switch parts with him (I played 1st Trombone). I had no problem with the treble clef and he aced the bass clef trombone part. Now he's director of the band and doesn't need to deal with the treble clef book any more.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
When I play scales in ascending fourths, I mentally add a flat from BB to Db. Then it runs F# to G, followed by C and F. C has no sharps or flats. Db has five flats. F# and B have five sharps. That is the way I would teach it. On a day when some break were required, I might have the student write out a scale Cb or B# so that know what it would be. Such keys might be required for studio players or some music schools. I would be surprised (flabbergasted) to encounter Cb on a cruise ship chart. It is akin to jazz breaking the rule for accidentals be sharps for follow on ascending notes, and flats for descending. I would rather read Chaucer in old English (potentially of some value) and Galileo’s calculus studies (probably of no value). Writers who use the key of Cb (and write charts that are harder to read than a Michelin road map for Switzerland) are possessed by demons. And yes, I am cold blooded and swat flies with my tongue.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="BGuttman"]When he had to read a piece in treble I'd switch parts with him (I played 1st Trombone). I had no problem with the treble clef and he aced the bass clef trombone part. Now he's director of the band and doesn't need to deal with the treble clef book any more.[/quote]
You are a Mensch among Mensches, Bruce.
You are a Mensch among Mensches, Bruce.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="BGuttman"]...Guy couldn't play the treble book...
Now he's director of the band and doesn't need to deal with the treble clef book any more.[/quote]
Does he have to read scores?
Now he's director of the band and doesn't need to deal with the treble clef book any more.[/quote]
Does he have to read scores?
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Conductors are like studio players. Once the hear the first note, whatever key it is in, the score is reference only, unless they hear a wrong note.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I guess I'm lucky. I come from a time in the distant past where we were (or at least I was) forced to learn every scale and to play in every key. We would never dream of transposing the music because we didn't know it. We'd be forced to learn it.
Something tells me these same trombone players would have a stroke if faced with tenor or alto clef, especially in sharp keys! :D[/quote]
Me too. Of course we had to learn every key and every scale, and all the C-clefs .
/Tom
Something tells me these same trombone players would have a stroke if faced with tenor or alto clef, especially in sharp keys! :D[/quote]
Me too. Of course we had to learn every key and every scale, and all the C-clefs .
/Tom
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I learned about all of the clefs when I asked my teacher (a TV studio trumpet player) about transposing. He showed me treble, bass, baritone, and 4 C clefs to make any adjustment I needed. Never got really comfortable on them until much later.
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
I was baritone bass clef in high school. Guy beside me was treble clef…looked over at his music day and thought I’d give it a try, within 3 days I was good on bass and treble. Fast forward 25 years and son forced into trumpet first year in school due to not having any baritones available. Treble clef came in handy. Fast forward another 25 years, put together a few ensembles with volunteer players. Trumpet player having problems with one song, I was on trombone, but asked if it would help if I played along with her. After an affirmative response I proceeded to play the trumpet part along with her on my trombone. Problem solved. Bottom line, you never know when something you didn’t even know why you learned it may come in handy. Sorta like wandering thru a tool department in a store looking for something you didn’t know you needed!
Knowing scales big help too. Sometimes key is changed at the last minute for a singer. No problem there jumping around on Bb horns, but only playing improv from a chord chart and key is changed transposing in my head for the French horn, now THAT makes me think!
Knowing scales big help too. Sometimes key is changed at the last minute for a singer. No problem there jumping around on Bb horns, but only playing improv from a chord chart and key is changed transposing in my head for the French horn, now THAT makes me think!
- BrassSection
- Posts: 424
- Joined: May 11, 2022
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