Lip trills
- Buttereduptrmb
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Jun 05, 2024
Hi, I’m trying for the life of me to figure out how to lip trill and everything is eluding me. I’ve been patient and kept track of my speed on the metronome but I’ve been stuck at the same speed for what feels like forever now, past it and it just goes to muck. any suggestions would be appreciated, thank you.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Trills are nothing more or less than slurring one note to the other, quickly. It does take a while to get the hang of it, but if you're having no progress I suspect you don't really know HOW to make the slur effectively and efficiently. It's not "lip," it's tongue. Try ayayayayaya and see if that helps. I do Skype lessons if you're interested.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
What Doug said, plus when starting the lip trill, lip it up to the top of the partial almost to the point of changing partials. That way it's a very small distance to the upper note. You almost have to try to keep it from slipping to the upper note. That will increase your speed. The less distance the air stream has to travel, the faster the trill can be.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Great comments so far. I'll add that while one shouldn't go out of their way to use excessive motion, a common mistake is to try so hard to avoid excessive motion that you wind up being too stiff and preventing almost any motion at all, including what is necessary for the trill to happen. I still constantly have to fight that instinct.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
All the above is true <EMOJI seq="2b06" tseq="2b06">⬆️</EMOJI>
I would add that trills are much easier if you do them further out on the slide (especially if you play on the F side of the horn), or further up in the partials. You can use the f attachment to aide in this, to help you learn the mechanics. For example, Bb to C trill is very difficult on the open horn, but you can depress the F attachment and play this lip trill in a flat third position easily. Not only is this easier because those notes are stacked on top of each other now on the F side, but also because the horn is now much longer.
Or try F to G in 4th position on the open horn. This one is easier because it's higher up in the harmonic series and the partials there are closer together.
It's good to learn trills on the F side first because not only are they easier, but you will also be able to trill almost any whole step once you learn the "usual" ones on the open Bb side too.
I'm not talking about changing between Bb and F sides (flailing the trigger) to do the trills, but instead talking about learning the lip trills on both sides either keeping the horn open, or keeping the trigger depressed.
I would add that trills are much easier if you do them further out on the slide (especially if you play on the F side of the horn), or further up in the partials. You can use the f attachment to aide in this, to help you learn the mechanics. For example, Bb to C trill is very difficult on the open horn, but you can depress the F attachment and play this lip trill in a flat third position easily. Not only is this easier because those notes are stacked on top of each other now on the F side, but also because the horn is now much longer.
Or try F to G in 4th position on the open horn. This one is easier because it's higher up in the harmonic series and the partials there are closer together.
It's good to learn trills on the F side first because not only are they easier, but you will also be able to trill almost any whole step once you learn the "usual" ones on the open Bb side too.
I'm not talking about changing between Bb and F sides (flailing the trigger) to do the trills, but instead talking about learning the lip trills on both sides either keeping the horn open, or keeping the trigger depressed.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Out of curiosity: I think I have never come across lip thrills outside classical solo repertoire (although I might certainly forget something). As I do not practice much David Concertino anymore, I probably have not seen one written for the last few years outside the classic alto trombone concertos iirc. do I miss anything?
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="MStarke"]Out of curiosity: I think I have never come across lip thrills outside classical solo repertoire (although I might certainly forget something). As I do not practice much David Concertino anymore, I probably have not seen one written for the last few years outside the classic alto trombone concertos iirc. do I miss anything?
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Firebird!
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Firebird!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="MStarke"]Out of curiosity: I think I have never come across lip thrills outside classical solo repertoire (although I might certainly forget something). As I do not practice much David Concertino anymore, I probably have not seen one written for the last few years outside the classic alto trombone concertos iirc. do I miss anything?
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Pretty frequent in big band music!
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Pretty frequent in big band music!
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="244562" time="1717633438" user_id="4208">
Out of curiosity: I think I have never come across lip thrills outside classical solo repertoire (although I might certainly forget something). As I do not practice much David Concertino anymore, I probably have not seen one written for the last few years outside the classic alto trombone concertos iirc. do I miss anything?
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Pretty frequent in big band music!
</QUOTE>
Shakes
Out of curiosity: I think I have never come across lip thrills outside classical solo repertoire (although I might certainly forget something). As I do not practice much David Concertino anymore, I probably have not seen one written for the last few years outside the classic alto trombone concertos iirc. do I miss anything?
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Pretty frequent in big band music!
</QUOTE>
Shakes
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Any high baroque or classical solo piece, whether originally for trombone or not, will have a lot of trills to play. And then even in orchestral pieces from those periods. Some of the Mozart masses, and the two Mozart Vespers, have numerous trills in the trombone parts and especially in the tenor parts. One of the Biber requiems has trills written in like every system of the tenor part. Also needed for several Romantic concertos (David and Korsakov, for instance). And then yeah, a couple orchestral later pieces, some contemporary music, and shakes in jazz charts.
And yes, they are beneficial praxtice even if you don't need to perform them. I'm not super into playing lots of "routines" in general as I find working on repertoire more stimulating and can get most of the technical maintenance through it if I'm strategic, but I find trills to be one of the few "routine" things where I really see a difference when I do them regularly or not. Really good to get back into (or stay in) shape, and helps the high register be more solid and easier. Also for me like I said above, since they just won't work when I'm stiff, practicing them forces me to re-realise how much motion should be allowed and helps me keep things relaxed and flexible, which then improves everything.
And yes, they are beneficial praxtice even if you don't need to perform them. I'm not super into playing lots of "routines" in general as I find working on repertoire more stimulating and can get most of the technical maintenance through it if I'm strategic, but I find trills to be one of the few "routine" things where I really see a difference when I do them regularly or not. Really good to get back into (or stay in) shape, and helps the high register be more solid and easier. Also for me like I said above, since they just won't work when I'm stiff, practicing them forces me to re-realise how much motion should be allowed and helps me keep things relaxed and flexible, which then improves everything.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Thanks for the reminders!
I try to avoid any masses and choir accompaniment ;-) so I didnt see it there.
But yeah, forgot about the shakes in bigband stuff (though at least in the repertoire I play at the moment it's also not frequent).
I try to avoid any masses and choir accompaniment ;-) so I didnt see it there.
But yeah, forgot about the shakes in bigband stuff (though at least in the repertoire I play at the moment it's also not frequent).
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Try getting back and forth from Bb to F using the tongue as Doug says. Don't go fast, just make the slur happen with the tongue, constant air. If you can do that in good time, you can move it all over the horn. Do them upside down, too, so you don't get in a rut. Then expand to three partials, add slide shifts, play chords over changes, there's lots to do.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="MStarke"]Out of curiosity: I think I have never come across lip thrills outside classical solo repertoire (although I might certainly forget something). As I do not practice much David Concertino anymore, I probably have not seen one written for the last few years outside the classic alto trombone concertos iirc. do I miss anything?
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Shakes in big band, I use them all the time, including lower in the overtone series. You get them marked for bass bone down on the staff sometimes. Flips, rips and even grace notes can use some of the same techniques. I don't think there's any downside unless you practice something wrong. Flexibility is always beneficial. Trills are often part of my warm up. Seeing how fast you can do them or how low can be worthwhile.
And do you guys find them beneficial to practice even if they are not directly required?[/quote]
Shakes in big band, I use them all the time, including lower in the overtone series. You get them marked for bass bone down on the staff sometimes. Flips, rips and even grace notes can use some of the same techniques. I don't think there's any downside unless you practice something wrong. Flexibility is always beneficial. Trills are often part of my warm up. Seeing how fast you can do them or how low can be worthwhile.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="244565" time="1717642068" user_id="3642">
Pretty frequent in big band music![/quote]
Shakes
</QUOTE>
Yeah, "shakes" are for trumpets. Trombonists have to do lip trills.
Pretty frequent in big band music![/quote]
Shakes
</QUOTE>
Yeah, "shakes" are for trumpets. Trombonists have to do lip trills.
- jamesqtrombone
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Jun 06, 2024
Use your jaw moving quickly up and down to aid in the lip trill.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="jamesqtrombone"]Use your jaw moving quickly up and down to aid in the lip trill.[/quote]
I don't think this is orthodox pedagogy. Wiggling the jaw is often used for a form of vibrato.
I don't think this is orthodox pedagogy. Wiggling the jaw is often used for a form of vibrato.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Although the jaw CAN be used that way, it's much better to isolate the tongue to do the work without the jaw.
- Olofson
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Apr 15, 2023
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- HornboneandVocals
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Oct 04, 2023
Now, being the Arnold Jacobs fan I am…
Would practicing the tongue movement “yayayayaya” be constructive away from the horn?
Would practicing the tongue movement “yayayayaya” be constructive away from the horn?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
If you zoom in on Pollard's video you can see that his jaw actually doesn't move despite the fact that he thinks it does.
Practicing things away from the horn is pretty much always a good idea. Whistle trills and feel what you do.
Practicing things away from the horn is pretty much always a good idea. Whistle trills and feel what you do.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Although the jaw CAN be used that way, it's much better to isolate the tongue to do the work without the jaw.[/quote]
Also you can get it much faster by isolating the tongue instead of having the jaw doing the work.
Also you can get it much faster by isolating the tongue instead of having the jaw doing the work.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
This is a perennial topic, has been since the old days of the listserv.
People work on these for years; many (most?) never get it. High range seems easier.
I think: the pro can slow down a trill until it's a slur. They're the same thing.
The amateur will never speed up a slur or flexibility until it's a trill. They're not quite the same thing.
People work on these for years; many (most?) never get it. High range seems easier.
I think: the pro can slow down a trill until it's a slur. They're the same thing.
The amateur will never speed up a slur or flexibility until it's a trill. They're not quite the same thing.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]Just wiggle the tongue faster.[/quote]
First you have to convince yourself that you can change pitch with the tongue.
This guy is an impressive whistler and has some good tutorials. He calls this a warble:
<YOUTUBE id="G7Wxl01ZbZ4">https://youtu.be/G7Wxl01ZbZ4?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
First you have to convince yourself that you can change pitch with the tongue.
This guy is an impressive whistler and has some good tutorials. He calls this a warble:
<YOUTUBE id="G7Wxl01ZbZ4">https://youtu.be/G7Wxl01ZbZ4?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
<YOUTUBE id="ECFwGpot6pQ">https://youtu.be/ECFwGpot6pQ?feature=shared</YOUTUBE>
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]If you zoom in on Pollard's video you can see that his jaw actually doesn't move despite the fact that he thinks it does.
Practicing things away from the horn is pretty much always a good idea. Whistle trills and feel what you do.[/quote]
It's a very small jaw-movement for me just above the staff and higher I can not feel I move the jaw at all, but it's larger when I do the fifth Bb-F in the low register. I can not do a fast trill between pedal Bb and the octave Bb above but I've seen and heard it done on bass trombone and then the jaw-movement was notable. Sounded great.
/Tom
Practicing things away from the horn is pretty much always a good idea. Whistle trills and feel what you do.[/quote]
It's a very small jaw-movement for me just above the staff and higher I can not feel I move the jaw at all, but it's larger when I do the fifth Bb-F in the low register. I can not do a fast trill between pedal Bb and the octave Bb above but I've seen and heard it done on bass trombone and then the jaw-movement was notable. Sounded great.
/Tom