Flat Rim
- JMartinez0
- Posts: 10
- Joined: May 26, 2024
What are some good examples of mouthpieces with a flat rim? I want to try some out though don't know where to start. Also, what are the benefits/downsides of a flat rim?
Thank you.
Thank you.
- HornboneandVocals
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Oct 04, 2023
Tried a alessi of some sort at a shop once. A wide flat rim I felt I could cook an egg on. To my knowledge the benefits are comfort and articulation. It was unbelievably uncomfortable for me, but I have a specifically rounded rim.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The regular Wicks have a pretty flat rim.
Schilke 51C4 (the 4 designates a semi-flat rim).
Some Giddings mouthpices have a flat rim.
The rim shape that I use for my mouthpieces is flatter than most.
Flat rims spread the contact over a wider area which minimizes the efect of pressure. Rounded rims like most Bachs tend to concentrate pressure on the high spot of the rim curvature, which can decrease endurance and potentially cause injury. The same is true if the inner edge is too sharp. I put a lot of thought into my rim shape, which is why it's often said to be the most comfortable.
Schilke 51C4 (the 4 designates a semi-flat rim).
Some Giddings mouthpices have a flat rim.
The rim shape that I use for my mouthpieces is flatter than most.
Flat rims spread the contact over a wider area which minimizes the efect of pressure. Rounded rims like most Bachs tend to concentrate pressure on the high spot of the rim curvature, which can decrease endurance and potentially cause injury. The same is true if the inner edge is too sharp. I put a lot of thought into my rim shape, which is why it's often said to be the most comfortable.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="HornboneandVocals"]Tried a alessi of some sort at a shop once. A wide flat rim I felt I could cook an egg on. To my knowledge the benefits are comfort and articulation. It was unbelievably uncomfortable for me, but I have a specifically rounded rim.[/quote]
I have a scan of an Alessi mouthpiece - the high point is actually right along the rim edge, and it slopes lower as you move away from the rim. So not "flat", per se, but depending on how you angle you will have a big flat crescent on either your upper or lower lip.
I think the advantage is that you get a very stable anchor on either your upper or lower lip, which will keep your face locked into the pitch. The disadvantage is that the high point along the rim can be uncomfortable and if you fight the mouthpiece locking your face in position, you will tire out pretty fast.
I have a scan of an Alessi mouthpiece - the high point is actually right along the rim edge, and it slopes lower as you move away from the rim. So not "flat", per se, but depending on how you angle you will have a big flat crescent on either your upper or lower lip.
I think the advantage is that you get a very stable anchor on either your upper or lower lip, which will keep your face locked into the pitch. The disadvantage is that the high point along the rim can be uncomfortable and if you fight the mouthpiece locking your face in position, you will tire out pretty fast.
- Rusty
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Jun 01, 2018
A few pieces I’ve come across with what I’d describe as flat rims:
- AR Resonance pieces (fairly narrow but flat)
- Schilke 47B (wide)
- Patrick BG5
- Wicks
- Hammonds are on the flatter side
- a few Yamahas a flatter than others (51C4 springs to mind)
I usually like the articulations I get with Bach rims, but they start to feel uncomfortable after a while. I’ve also had some pieces with a sharper inner bite which also don’t ever work out longer term. I also feel Doug’s rims hit a nice sweet spot of flatness and overall comfort.
- AR Resonance pieces (fairly narrow but flat)
- Schilke 47B (wide)
- Patrick BG5
- Wicks
- Hammonds are on the flatter side
- a few Yamahas a flatter than others (51C4 springs to mind)
I usually like the articulations I get with Bach rims, but they start to feel uncomfortable after a while. I’ve also had some pieces with a sharper inner bite which also don’t ever work out longer term. I also feel Doug’s rims hit a nice sweet spot of flatness and overall comfort.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
DE wrote: Schilke 51C4 (the 4 designates a semi-flat rim).
What DE cup/shank would be similar to a Schilke 51C4?
What DE cup/shank would be similar to a Schilke 51C4?
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]DE wrote: Schilke 51C4 (the 4 designates a semi-flat rim).
What DE cup/shank would be similar to a Schilke 51C4?[/quote]
Doug's Comparison chart says LT101E (probably an 8 shank)
<LINK_TEXT text="http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html">http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/seriescharts/ltchart.html</LINK_TEXT>
What DE cup/shank would be similar to a Schilke 51C4?[/quote]
Doug's Comparison chart says LT101E (probably an 8 shank)
<LINK_TEXT text="http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html">http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/seriescharts/ltchart.html</LINK_TEXT>
- HornboneandVocals
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Oct 04, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="HornboneandVocals" post_id="244568" time="1717648973" user_id="17108">
Tried a alessi of some sort at a shop once. A wide flat rim I felt I could cook an egg on. To my knowledge the benefits are comfort and articulation. It was unbelievably uncomfortable for me, but I have a specifically rounded rim.[/quote]
I have a scan of an Alessi mouthpiece - the high point is actually right along the rim edge, and it slopes lower as you move away from the rim. So not "flat", per se, but depending on how you angle you will have a big flat crescent on either your upper or lower lip.
I think the advantage is that you get a very stable anchor on either your upper or lower lip, which will keep your face locked into the pitch. The disadvantage is that the high point along the rim can be uncomfortable and if you fight the mouthpiece locking your face in position, you will tire out pretty fast.
</QUOTE>
Fascinating! I think I fell into the latter situation. Thank you!
Tried a alessi of some sort at a shop once. A wide flat rim I felt I could cook an egg on. To my knowledge the benefits are comfort and articulation. It was unbelievably uncomfortable for me, but I have a specifically rounded rim.[/quote]
I have a scan of an Alessi mouthpiece - the high point is actually right along the rim edge, and it slopes lower as you move away from the rim. So not "flat", per se, but depending on how you angle you will have a big flat crescent on either your upper or lower lip.
I think the advantage is that you get a very stable anchor on either your upper or lower lip, which will keep your face locked into the pitch. The disadvantage is that the high point along the rim can be uncomfortable and if you fight the mouthpiece locking your face in position, you will tire out pretty fast.
</QUOTE>
Fascinating! I think I fell into the latter situation. Thank you!
- Geordie
- Posts: 349
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Snip
I put a lot of thought into my rim shape, which is why it's often said to be the most comfortable.[/quote]
The most comfortable in my experience of many years playing. Teamed with the right cup and shank my DE piece was a total game changer for me in terms of range and endurance building.
I put a lot of thought into my rim shape, which is why it's often said to be the most comfortable.[/quote]
The most comfortable in my experience of many years playing. Teamed with the right cup and shank my DE piece was a total game changer for me in terms of range and endurance building.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
Wicks are definitely flat. I find the Heritage series even more flat. Some like it, some like it not.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
It’s been a while since I played a Wick. IIRC, the inner rim of the Wick slopes downward gradually rather than a sharp edge. The inner edge of the rim feels “softer” than a Bach or a Schilke 51C4, or even a stock 51.
- JMartinez0
- Posts: 10
- Joined: May 26, 2024
Thank you all for the replies and information. I'm starting to find myself in situations where I'll be playing for longer than 2 hours. So as my chops increase in strength, I want to find something suitable and comfortable.
Thank you.
Thank you.
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
Doug is on point. After 30+ years on a Schilke 47 I switched to a Bach 11C. I can feel the more rounded rim on the Bach better. And therefore play with less pressure and better endurance. Some things can be counterintuitive for some people. A Schilke 47 is a good mouthpiece.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Flat rims...
Just to show the extreme case, here are the two mouthpieces I'm playing tonight.
Rim on the bass piece (right) is 6.825mm or 0.269" wide.
On the tenor piece (left) it's 7.9mm or 0.311" wide (!!).
Both as flat as it gets with virtually no rounding of the edges. Yet extremely comfortable to play!
Just to show the extreme case, here are the two mouthpieces I'm playing tonight.
Rim on the bass piece (right) is 6.825mm or 0.269" wide.
On the tenor piece (left) it's 7.9mm or 0.311" wide (!!).
Both as flat as it gets with virtually no rounding of the edges. Yet extremely comfortable to play!
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Flat with a sharp edge can be comfortable until you have to play loud or high for an extended time and end up using more pressure. There was a time when I played on rims just like that, and then thinner but still flat... but I changed.
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
[quote="LeTromboniste"]Flat rims...
Just to show the extreme case, here are the two mouthpieces I'm playing tonight.
Rim on the bass piece (right) is 6.825mm or 0.269" wide.
On the tenor piece (left) it's 7.9mm or 0.311" wide (!!).
Both as flat as it gets with virtually no rounding of the edges. Yet extremely comfortable to play![/quote]
Oof, no thanks. All my rims have a strong radius and nice crown. They are made to be extremely comfortable, that is the single most important part of a mouthpiece.
Just to show the extreme case, here are the two mouthpieces I'm playing tonight.
Rim on the bass piece (right) is 6.825mm or 0.269" wide.
On the tenor piece (left) it's 7.9mm or 0.311" wide (!!).
Both as flat as it gets with virtually no rounding of the edges. Yet extremely comfortable to play![/quote]
Oof, no thanks. All my rims have a strong radius and nice crown. They are made to be extremely comfortable, that is the single most important part of a mouthpiece.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="LIBrassCo"]Oof, no thanks. All my rims have a strong radius and nice crown. They are made to be extremely comfortable, that is the single most important part of a mouthpiece.[/quote]
What about this one
..... :lol:
Based on a 15th century original, made of 7 parts brazed together, all from flat sheet brass – shank and sleeves rolled and seamed, cup formed into a cone and seamed, rim and supportive ring right underneath the ring are discs cut from flat sheet.
Gives another meaning to "flat rim"!
What about this one
..... :lol:
Based on a 15th century original, made of 7 parts brazed together, all from flat sheet brass – shank and sleeves rolled and seamed, cup formed into a cone and seamed, rim and supportive ring right underneath the ring are discs cut from flat sheet.
Gives another meaning to "flat rim"!
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The ornamentation on that horn is great!
And the seam on the bell is part of it.
And the seam on the bell is part of it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That horn looks beautiful. The mouthpiece though, yikes!