Embouchure mechanics certificates?

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-17 1:43 p.m.

First, I gotta give a shout out to Doug Elliot for the few lessons I've had with him. My playing is as easy as it has ever been, and I've been getting a fair amount of compliments for my tone lately. :biggrin:

I'm wondering: has anyone tried to incorporate brass embouchure mechanics into part of a degree program somewhere? It just seems like as much as university (and the like, conservatories, etc.) music departments should have to follow the same rules as many spheres of upper education in terms of procuring grants, providing innovative research and staying on the front edge of ideas; that music departments generally fail at this pretty hard - and one way that they *all* should be moving to the fore of musical knowledge is to have brass pedagogy in this respect, provided by at least one certified expert like Doug, Dave Wilken, David Sheetz, or one of many others who have this skill set.

torobone · by **torobone** » 2019-01-17 2:13 p.m.

I've not heard of one. I continue to run into music grads that have a long way to go in this regard.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-17 2:38 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]First, I gotta give a shout out to Doug Elliot for the few lessons I've had with him. My playing is as easy as it has ever been, and I've been getting a fair amount of compliments for my tone lately. :biggrin:

I'm wondering: has anyone tried to incorporate brass embouchure mechanics into part of a degree program somewhere? It just seems like as much as university (and the like, conservatories, etc.) music departments should have to follow the same rules as many spheres of upper education in terms of procuring grants, providing innovative research and staying on the front edge of ideas; that music departments generally fail at this pretty hard - and one way that they *all* should be moving to the fore of musical knowledge is to have brass pedagogy in this respect, provided by at least one certified expert like Doug, Dave Wilken, David Sheetz, or one of many others who have this skill set.[/quote]

I would presume that you do not have direct experience of Conservatoires. Some are not strong on research, but many are. Who is 'certified' in embouchure ? Letters after your name mean that you have letters after your name. A lot of people with fancy qualifications don't have a clue. That's the nice thing about playing.... it's out there and obvious. Nobody asks for qualifications.

When Conservatoires are populated by 'certified' people they will be places to avoid.

Chris

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-01-17 2:47 p.m.

While I have a certain empathy for that view, it also seems to suggest that the principles and practice of composition (not to mention various aspects of performance) can't be taught. And if these can be taught in a way that's even partly based on formal principles, then to that degree the notion of certification may make some sense. It doesn't make what many may think of as practical art into a science. It just recognizes that some significant aspects of the practice of the art are teachable and learnable.

Bach5G · 2019-01-17 2:50 p.m.

Certified chops docs. The next step would inevitably be obtaining some sort of degree or certificate indicating you followed a prescribed course of study with said chops doc or met some required chops curriculum as part of your studies (your thesis will be in Wet vs Dry Embouchures in Baroque Sackbut Performance Practice in France, 1659-1750) allowing you to graduate with your own chops certification.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-17 2:52 p.m.

[quote="blast"]I would presume that you do not have direct experience of Conservatoires. Some are not strong on research, but many are. Who is 'certified' in embouchure ? Letters after your name mean that you have letters after your name. A lot of people with fancy qualifications don't have a clue. That's the nice thing about playing.... it's out there and obvious. Nobody asks for qualifications.

When Conservatoires are populated by 'certified' people they will be places to avoid.

Chris[/quote]

Conservatories offer degrees and their faculty are populated by people with degrees.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2019-01-17 3:28 p.m.

Degrees != certifications.

They are both what you'd call a sorting-mechanism in economic jargon, but the incentive structure is vastly different. That isn't to say that conservatories and universities are perfect, but they are quite different. And you'd have to consider what a certificate would add that a university would not and if it is a realistic model that would be able to both train someone as well as incentivize the accrediting institution to define and enforce a standard. In some cases (in the tech world, W3 certifications for example) are hardly worth the paper they are so seldom printed on. Others can be more useful or the requirement for a job.

But the market for someone who would want to say, be a "brass embouchure" specialist is really quite limited. What would it add? Would you be able to pick up more students if you had the certification? What would stop someone from saying they were a certificate holder before... and they just didn't want to renew their certification? Would they lose that information? Not really... so you're looking at a one-off certificate probably. And how do you objectively indicate that someone is an expert in the field? Do you send someone out to observe them fixing an array of brass embouchure problems?

In the music education side of things, teachers are required to be certified, but they aren't required to be as in depth as performance majors are in any given instrument. So the certification would have to be more specific than that certification but less specific or perhaps less indepth than a degree in performance which almost always covers at least some pedagogical elements but also the broader context of what it takes to be a performer in that particular domain.

Granted, I've often thought that if you weren't seeking to be in academia, that I would question the utility of a masters degree, especially if you pay for it. Seems to me that if you want to get good, you could just as easily go to a great musician and pay them some amount less than $30-90k for a weekly lesson... a weekly lesson at $400 a lesson is still only $20k... but I don't know if competing with accredited institutions to provide a certificate would be able to adequately provide a middle ground between that option and a full blown academic degree.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-01-17 4:06 p.m.

Having a reputation as a "chop doc" sometimes can have negative repercussions. At one time professional players would come to Reinhardt's studio in secret because if it became known that they needed that kind of help their careers would be curtailed.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-17 4:20 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Degrees != certifications.[/quote]

I see we're speaking two different languages.

[quote="Matt K"]And how do you objectively indicate that someone is an expert in the field? Do you send someone out to observe them fixing an array of brass embouchure problems?[/quote]

Sounds reasonable to me.

In the music education side of things, teachers are required to be certified, but they aren't required to be as in depth as performance majors are in any given instrument. So the certification would have to be more specific than that certification but less specific or perhaps less indepth than a degree in performance which almost always covers at least some pedagogical elements but also the broader context of what it takes to be a performer in that particular domain.

Well, maybe it doesn't have to be a degree/certificate separate from a different degree like a Master's performance degree where you're expected to be able to teach other brass students at a high level.

Granted, I've often thought that if you weren't seeking to be in academia, that I would question the utility of a masters degree, especially if you pay for it. Seems to me that if you want to get good, you could just as easily go to a great musician and pay them some amount less than $30-90k for a weekly lesson... a weekly lesson at $400 a lesson is still only $20k... but I don't know if competing with accredited institutions to provide a certificate would be able to adequately provide a middle ground between that option and a full blown academic degree.

I'm not really suggesting to create a potentially fraudulent certificate not associated with an accreditation.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-17 6:01 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="75634" time="1547753937" user_id="52">
I would presume that you do not have direct experience of Conservatoires. Some are not strong on research, but many are. Who is 'certified' in embouchure ? Letters after your name mean that you have letters after your name. A lot of people with fancy qualifications don't have a clue. That's the nice thing about playing.... it's out there and obvious. Nobody asks for qualifications.

When Conservatoires are populated by 'certified' people they will be places to avoid.

Chris[/quote]

Conservatories offer degrees and their faculty are populated by people with degrees.
</QUOTE>

Not in the UK. Staff on performance courses are hired on their standing in the profession. For 28 years I have been teaching on BA, BEd, and Masters courses. No degree in my pocket.

There is more than one philosophy regarding the physical aspects of brass performance, with positive results to be seen from very different approaches. There is no danger of one philosophy gaining supremacy in the near future, and therefore no possibility of a global formalisation of physical brass instruction.

Chris

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2019-01-17 6:38 p.m.

Personal story:

A 30 year or so grad of Berklee who gets a wonderful cornet style sound from double pedals to probably 17th or 18th partial, over and over again, seemingly without effort, so I asked him to help me, over email, with the high pressure in my head. And he did, in the first simple reply. Later he added, "The dirty secret in music schools is they have you play lots of things but don't actually teach you how to play the horn."

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-01-17 8:33 p.m.

[quote="blast"]

There is more than one philosophy regarding the physical aspects of brass performance, with positive results to be seen from very different approaches.[/quote]

Absolutely.

There is no danger of one philosophy gaining supremacy in the near future, and therefore no possibility of a global formalisation of physical brass instruction.

A certification program need not be committed to a single approach. But there are good implementations of a certification program and bad ones. It's pretty clear that Doug Elliott is intimately familiar with several different (at times incompatible) approaches. Choosing to pursue one approach rather than others -- even while being knowledgeable about the others -- in general should not be forbidden (there are complications to this in some areas, but in general it's true). If you think about it, anyone who has an advanced degree, at least at the doctoral level (D.Ed., Ph.D., MD, DO, ...), is expected and required to be familiar in a pretty detailed way with those approaches that may compete with the one he or she chooses to follow. Indeed, it's often the "certification" process that demands and ensures that breadth of knowledge.

Certification does not imply global formalization.

I'm not pimping for certification programs here (and tend to shun them myself -- certainly once I abandoned academia), but they have their advantages if carefully done.

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-17 11:22 p.m.

[quote="blast"]

I would presume that you do not have direct experience of Conservatoires. Some are not strong on research, but many are. Who is 'certified' in embouchure ? Letters after your name mean that you have letters after your name. A lot of people with fancy qualifications don't have a clue. That's the nice thing about playing.... it's out there and obvious. Nobody asks for qualifications.

When Conservatoires are populated by 'certified' people they will be places to avoid.

Chris[/quote]

Have you ever almost had your chops wrecked by somebody who didn't know the first thing about dealing with an embouchure that didn't "look" normal? I have, by some pretty well known Conservatory names who by your standard alone should have been master teachers. I cannot even remember how many teachers I had who answered many of my questions with "I don't know, just stop thinking about it and the issue will clear up on it's own". That's not teaching. They didn't know the first thing about chops and I feel sorry for all of the students who may not have recovered from the experience.

You scoff at the of consideration of any other factor than the abilities as a player when it comes to landing teaching jobs, as if the ability to communicate with someone who may or may not understand what it is your doing, solve problems, and adapt to new challenges are irrelevant. Why do you think that teaching in and of itself is not it's own skill, separate from a person's musical abilities? Being a great musician is the baseline required to be a great teacher, not the end in and of itself. If a person doesn't have an in depth knowledge of how whatever subject they may be teaching, AND how to replicate the process in others, than that person might as well be taking shots in the dark.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I am a professional educator. It took real work to learn the skills I have, just like learning the horn did, and I still constantly push myself to learn new things and improve my abilities, outside of my degree alone. You're entirely correct in saying the degree itself doesn't mean anything. The skills associated with that degree do. When you learn how to teach you learn skills you DON'T get as a player or performer. Teaching is a measurable activity. If I rely on MY abilities as a trombonist alone to teach, I'm failing to see the larger scope of my role as a teacher.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-18 4:59 a.m.

[quote="Redthunder"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="75634" time="1547753937" user_id="52">

I would presume that you do not have direct experience of Conservatoires. Some are not strong on research, but many are. Who is 'certified' in embouchure ? Letters after your name mean that you have letters after your name. A lot of people with fancy qualifications don't have a clue. That's the nice thing about playing.... it's out there and obvious. Nobody asks for qualifications.

When Conservatoires are populated by 'certified' people they will be places to avoid.

Chris[/quote]

Have you ever almost had your chops wrecked by somebody who didn't know the first thing about dealing with an embouchure that didn't "look" normal? I have, by some pretty well known Conservatory names who by your standard alone should have been master teachers. I cannot even remember how many teachers I had who answered many of my questions with "I don't know, just stop thinking about it and the issue will clear up on it's own". That's not teaching. They didn't know the first thing about chops and I feel sorry for all of the students who may not have recovered from the experience.

You scoff at the of consideration of any other factor than the abilities as a player when it comes to landing teaching jobs, as if the ability to communicate with someone who may or may not understand what it is your doing, solve problems, and adapt to new challenges are irrelevant. Why do you think that teaching in and of itself is not it's own skill, separate from a person's musical abilities? Being a great musician is the baseline required to be a great teacher, not the end in and of itself. If a person doesn't have an in depth knowledge of how whatever subject they may be teaching, AND how to replicate the process in others, than that person might as well be taking shots in the dark.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but I am a professional educator. It took real work to learn the skills I have, just like learning the horn did, and I still constantly push myself to learn new things and improve my abilities, outside of my degree alone. You're entirely correct in saying the degree itself doesn't mean anything. The skills associated with that degree do. When you learn how to teach you learn skills you DON'T get as a player or performer. Teaching is a measurable activity. If I rely on MY abilities as a trombonist alone to teach, I'm failing to see the larger scope of my role as a teacher.
</QUOTE>

I scoff at nothing and no-one. I have great respect for great teachers, whether they are top players or not. Not all top players make good teachers.... many do not. In 45 years of teaching I have seen and sometimes had to undo the results of ill informed teaching, often by highly qualified people. When I started out I taught very differently to the way I do now.... I like to think I am better now, but I had success in those early days too. You go on to create a whole paragraph of assertions about my attitude that are simply untrue and therefore unpleasant. I obviously upset you, but please do not create a characterisation with no basis in fact.

We have a different system here, which my simple point. I have no letters to hide behind and as a teacher, I am as good as my last lesson. Word gets around about who the best college teachers are and so you attract students.

I enjoy teaching. I enjoy doing it far more than talking about it.It is part of my being a musician and is mostly to do with music.

Chris

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-18 7:38 a.m.

[quote="blast"]

I scoff at nothing and no-one. I have great respect for great teachers, whether they are top players or not. Not all top players make good teachers.... many do not. In 45 years of teaching I have seen and sometimes had to undo the results of ill informed teaching, often by highly qualified people. When I started out I taught very differently to the way I do now.... I like to think I am better now, but I had success in those early days too. You go on to create a whole paragraph of assertions about my attitude that are simply untrue and therefore unpleasant. I obviously upset you, but please do not create a characterisation with no basis in fact.

We have a different system here, which my simple point. I have no letters to hide behind and as a teacher, I am as good as my last lesson. Word gets around about who the best college teachers are and so you attract students.

I enjoy teaching. I enjoy doing it far more than talking about it.It is part of my being a musician and is mostly to do with music.

Chris[/quote]

I’m not upset, and I apologize if I created that impression, however you did pretty much say that music schools shouldn’t be places for people with degrees or qualifications. I think my point in general was that professional reputation alone can be a great tool to discover great players and educators, but frankly, when other peoples welfare are on the line, there’s nothing wrong with also upholding an expectation of teachers having a certain set of skills or knowledge through standardized measures of abilities. Degrees are an example of this. The system you’re describing still leaves a huge opening for things to go wrong with people that don’t know what they’re doing.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-18 9:10 a.m.

I suppose what I am saying is that when formal qualifications become essential, some of the most valuable teaching will no longer be available.

We are working in an art form.... sometimes our work is craft, sometimes art, but at conservatoire level, students need access to those creating at the highest level of music performance. Many of those people did not complete formal training for one reason or another. Most work at Conservatoire level is about music, not mechanics.... we try not to accept people with obvious mechanical issues at audition as our courses are so fast paced that there is not really time for corrective work in the normal course of events. That may seem tough, but it is a tough profession.

Chris

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-18 10:44 a.m.

[quote="blast"]I suppose what I am saying is that when formal qualifications become essential, some of the most valuable teaching will no longer be available.

We are working in an art form.... sometimes our work is craft, sometimes art, but at conservatoire level, students need access to those creating at the highest level of music performance. Many of those people did not complete formal training for one reason or another. Most work at Conservatoire level is about music, not mechanics.... we try not to accept people with obvious mechanical issues at audition as our courses are so fast paced that there is not really time for corrective work in the normal course of events. That may seem tough, but it is a tough profession.

Chris[/quote]

Interesting how there seem to be some small differences across the pond. Although, this observation about the pace of conservatories is the same. To be clear, embouchure experts:

- don't just help people with obvious mechanical issues; they also help good players just play easier.

- know enough to avoid giving advice that causes issues.

- need years of study to become proficient.

- tend to be great musicians, but I don't believe this is mandatory.

I didn't throw the idea out here to suggest a universal 'you must have this' kind of thing, although that would be a concern. Do people require a degree to get an orchestra job? It kind of seem to be so; performance degrees offer the kind of experience in university/conservatory ensembles that we need to become proficient musicians that is very hard to get otherwise. For the best musicians, there does seem to be a path where someone goes to get the degree, but lands a gig before actually completing it. Which implies that the training is more important than the degree certificate, which makes sense for performers. I'm not too sure if the same thing would apply to embouchure experts, or even to music instructors more generally. Being able to perform and being able to teach are obviously two different skill sets.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-01-18 11:08 a.m.

A performer needs to be able to optimize his own playing.

A teacher needs to optimize the playing of a variety of people.

There is a difference.

Jaroslav Cimera, Emory Remington, and others we revere as great teachers were not necessarily the best players of the era.

And it's not just trombone players. I just watched a TV program about Jascha Heifetz and it appears he wasn't a great teacher although he was a terrific performer.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-18 11:18 a.m.

In Sweden you need to be certified to work at a school. Not the exam but a special new certificate for teaching. The education I have is old 1984-1988. I worked for 13 years as a brass instrument teacher. I even had a few students in trombone at a music gymnasium for three years. The certificate idea came some years ago from the politicians. Old teachers had to study again to get that certificate. Fortunately I switched career 19 years ago and will never go back. It would probably be a problem to get a job now as a teacher without that special certificate, although I have the exam and 13 years of experience because the certificate has to do with things not included back then, but on the other hand someone sent me a message last week and asked if I wanted to sub as a trombone teacher at a school again <EMOJI seq="1f600" tseq="1f600">😀</EMOJI>I'm glad I don't need to. I'm fine with how things are.

/Tom

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2019-01-18 12:11 p.m.

Human beings often operate under the hope that adherence to form will create consistency, predictability, and progress. Go to school, learn this, get this piece of paper, go and… be a doctor, a lawyer, a nurse, a teacher. If a teacher simply says, “Do it this way and only this way, and you’ll get better,” then the teacher is missing some critical information, namely the needs of the student.

America tends to resort to certificates and degrees to demonstrate—“prove”—that someone is competent in a field. Billions are spent training teachers, and more billions are spent by people who want to become teachers. As if certification and granting a degree guaranteed competence and proficiency.

My impression of the UK conservatory system (not just from Chris’ posts but also other stuff I’ve read—it’s an impression, mind) is that it is more akin to a guild system. The teacher has acquired status as a result of experience, knowledge, reputation, and “networking,” so to speak. The result seems to be more a process of the teacher attracting students, rather than promotion.

Personally, and regardless of any field I’ve studied, I have benefitted more from teachers who have struggled, spent time figuring out what works best for them, found good teachers/mentors, then learned to teach others in a flexible way suited to each student, not a dogmatic, certificate-approved approach.

***

I read that in his early days, Reinhardt attempted to operate franchises by certifying teachers. He abandoned it when he discovered that many of the franchisees were teaching the way they always taught, and not adhering to his system.

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2019-01-18 1:52 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]First, I gotta give a shout out to Doug Elliot for the few lessons I've had with him. My playing is as easy as it has ever been, and I've been getting a fair amount of compliments for my tone lately. :biggrin:

I'm wondering: has anyone tried to incorporate brass embouchure mechanics into part of a degree program somewhere? It just seems like as much as university (and the like, conservatories, etc.) music departments should have to follow the same rules as many spheres of upper education in terms of procuring grants, providing innovative research and staying on the front edge of ideas; that music departments generally fail at this pretty hard - and one way that they *all* should be moving to the fore of musical knowledge is to have brass pedagogy in this respect, provided by at least one certified expert like Doug, Dave Wilken, David Sheetz, or one of many others who have this skill set.[/quote]

I don't think it has or is very likely to happen. Probably due to a combination of the concept of academic freedom (professors do as professors want to do), inertia (professors do what they've done before) and the scarcity and specificity of the skill you want to mandate (the number who practice or have been taught in this way versus the number who have been successful with no or only cursory knowledge of the system).

However, posts like yours will help to make sure more students will think about looking for his kind of pedagogy. If the market demands chop teachers, schools will look to hire them.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-18 3:25 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Human beings often operate under the hope that adherence to form will create consistency, predictability, and progress. Go to school, learn this, get this piece of paper, go and… be a doctor, a lawyer, a nurse, a teacher. If a teacher simply says, “Do it this way and only this way, and you’ll get better,” then the teacher is missing some critical information, namely the needs of the student.

America tends to resort to certificates and degrees to demonstrate—“prove”—that someone is competent in a field. Billions are spent training teachers, and more billions are spent by people who want to become teachers. As if certification and granting a degree guaranteed competence and proficiency.

My impression of the UK conservatory system (not just from Chris’ posts but also other stuff I’ve read—it’s an impression, mind) is that it is more akin to a guild system. The teacher has acquired status as a result of experience, knowledge, reputation, and “networking,” so to speak. The result seems to be more a process of the teacher attracting students, rather than promotion.

Personally, and regardless of any field I’ve studied, I have benefitted more from teachers who have struggled, spent time figuring out what works best for them, found good teachers/mentors, then learned to teach others in a flexible way suited to each student, not a dogmatic, certificate-approved approach.

***

I read that in his early days, Reinhardt attempted to operate franchises by certifying teachers. He abandoned it when he discovered that many of the franchisees were teaching the way they always taught, and not adhering to his system.[/quote]

Yes,yes,yes Ken.

Chris

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-18 3:54 p.m.

Following on....

The most important lesson of my life was given to me by an old, self-taught, retired trombone player.

He showed me in less than one hour, pretty much everything that is possible on the trombone... technically and musically.

I have spent most of a lifetime chasing what he showed me.

The only times that I wish I was a bit better at making music on this instrument is not in the orchestra but in lessons.... I would love to give that one lesson that leads to lifetime of study and enjoyment.

You cannot study that in a classroom.

My day to day teaching has become ever more flexible, ever more geared to making the student grow musically....totally student-centric, ever more distant from any form standardised assessment.... that's why this topic sort of bugs me. My only defence are my results.... and I am happy with that.

I am a dinosaur from another age, sure.... and glad not to be starting out now. Young players today have so much more expected of them in so many ways, but the basics remain the same.

Chris

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-01-18 7:04 p.m.

I'm afraid it's a field that's far too deep to be covered in as part of a conservatory or university trombone curriculum. It'd have to be more of a "survey of bass trombone embouchure mechanics"; something to provide a foundation for further study and (more importantly) to introduce the student to the idea that the "one size fits all" solutions don't actually "fit all". You'd need to spend a whole lot of time looking at a lot of different embouchures before you were qualified to start making diagnoses.

There's also something of a chicken vs. egg thing. Someone would have to decide who is qualified to decide who is qualified. Shaky ground.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-19 3:34 a.m.

A special certificate to be trustworthy to teach and correct emboushure? No, that sounds silly to me. It is an experience to gain through a lifetime of playing and teaching and it is not enough to have ben an educated and experienced teacher because these problems can be avoided if you start students your self. You need experience from a lot of students who had a bad start to be able to learn how to fix emboushures.

What I think is important to be able to fix emboushures

I think you need to be a good musician yourself to get the trust needed from students who have these kind of problems and it would be great if you somewhere in your career had experienced and overcome emboushure problems, the bigger the better. You also need to have studied a lot of different emboushures. You do not need to have used them yourself but you need to understand what goes on when you play with a smile emboushure for example. You also need to be trained in psychology and anatomy, enough to understand what goes on in the mind under stress and how the body works. You also need knowledge of different schools about the subject.

What I think is very important for all teachers on any instrument

You need to be able to demonstrate what works. You need to be a raw model as a musician to your students. You need to be a scientist to evaluate all the experience you've collected and use that. You need to be open to new ideas. You need to always question yourself. You need to look beyond your self and decide when you should advice the student to seek another teacher.

That's requirements for a teacher to take care of emboushure problems. It could be in the ad when you need him/her.

Do you fit this description?

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-19 9:18 a.m.

The issue isn't whether or not a certification or degree makes a music teacher qualified to help students with embouchure issues. The issue is that the consensus of people who are considered to be "experts" usually don't know what they don't know about embouchures.

Ideally, the basics of embouchure mechanics that Doug teaches would be common knowledge. It's really not all that difficult to understand and once a foundational background is grasped one has at least enough information to know what one doesn't know.

What Chris says about conservatories is also true in an awful lot of studios in institutions of higher learning across the U.S. too. You had better be good enough before you start, because your studio teacher probably won't be able fix any serious embouchure issues you may have. Any embouchure tweaking or corrections is probably going to be attempted through musical coaching or work on breathing. It's like throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks, you can still end up with a mess to clean up.

Of course if a studio only accepts players who are good already, then that teacher's results are probably going to be good regardless. But I would argue that it still leaves a gaping hole in the student's education. As Chris pointed out, it's a tough profession and there are fewer available teaching positions for those recently graduated music teachers. The chances that those teachers will get a high profile teaching or playing gig right out of school are slimmer than before, so they often end up teaching students who DO need that help with embouchure. But since they haven't learned even the basics of brass embouchure mechanics, the new teachers teach the same way they learned.

We've ended up with a cycle of ignorance. As a rule, the folks who teach the next generation of players and teachers are folks who rarely needed to consider embouchure during their own education. The students who need that help get weeded out by an audition process, guided to other career paths, or they simply quit out of frustration. The next generation of teachers are equally ignorant.

The culture in the field of brass pedagogy (at least in the U.S.) largely de-emphasizes any sort of embouchure analysis. It's seen as unnecessary at best ("Teacher/player X gets great results without it.") and harmful at worst ("Paralysis by analysis!"). I frequently see resistance from smart, talented, experienced brass teachers and players any time the topic of embouchure analysis comes up. Many people seem to be comfortable in their ignorance and even revel in it as if it's a good thing.

"A Complete Guide to Brass," by Scott Whitener, is a textbook designed for brass pedagogy courses. The book is 411 pages long. The section on embouchure is not even 6 pages. Furthermore, there is a whole lot of misleading, inaccurate or outright wrong statements about embouchure in this book. While I haven't reviewed every book or article out there about brass pedagogy, I'd say that this sort of attention and accuracy is pretty much the norm.

We don't need specific certificates or degrees, we need to change the attitude so many brass players and teachers have. Really, it's not rocket science. If you feel it's a good thing to study music theory, history, literature, etc. because it makes you a better musician and educator, then perhaps you should also study some embouchure mechanics.

Dave

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-19 10:58 a.m.

We are still grouping ourselves around philosophies that were the fruit of the mid 20th C. The brain controls the muscles of the face... we need to study the brain. Plenty of material, mostly sports research and psychological research.

Brave new world,

Chris

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-19 12:46 p.m.

Yes, the psychology of peak performance and acquisition/development of motor skills is also a fascinating topic, but a red herring.

I'm sure you know many of us here find Doug Elliott's advice and lessons helpful. The information he shares is valuable and perfectly compatible with any teaching philosophy you want to use. The basics of what he teaches is simple enough that a woodwind player wanting to become a band director can learn from it and make use of it. Having that understanding of brass embouchure mechanics has allowed me to better help beginners and professional players.

It's not a matter of a teaching philosophy. It's a matter of the field acknowledging a gap in our understanding and fixing it. How you go about applying that knowledge is up to you and your situation, but at least it's an informed one.

Dave

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-19 5:31 p.m.

A RED HERRING ????????? Dave, did you really post that ??????

WOW!!!!!

What is it that controls everything you do ??? Control....that's the interesting bit..... the thing that directs us to post here, play in a group, live, laugh and love.... the bit in charge. That's the ultimate key to achievement.... the brain.

Chris

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-19 6:33 p.m.

I think I should probably stay out of this, but I get where Dave's coming from.

The most basic thing about this philosophy is an understanding of how things work mechanically. To say the brain controls the muscles of the face so we should study the brain sounds an awful lot like promoting ignorance of the mechanics involved.

"we try not to accept people with obvious mechanical issues at audition" results in exactly that on the part of both teachers and students - ignorance of how to deal with problems that crop up later. Dave himself was in a Master's program when things fell apart and his teacher brought him to me - because HE didn't know how to fix it.

blast · by **blast** » 2019-01-20 5:12 a.m.

We try not to accept people with problems as the design of the course makes it almost impossible to work at resolving issues and still continue with the course. Several years ago, when I was not on the panel, the RCS accepted a young man with considerable issues.I knew what was happening and how to correct it, but the relentless stream of performance exams, scales, excerpts and solo and performance classes, ensembles of all kinds meant that every time we came close to correcting things, the simple need to produce some kind of result took us back to square one. We both found this frustrating and upsetting. I don't want another young person to suffer like that. if someone comes to audition with issues they are advised of the problem and it is up to them to think how they want to proceed. Some go away and return a year later in shape to cope with the course.

Over the years I have undertaken all manner of remedial work with players at all ages and levels...beginner to pro. I am yet to be stumped by a problem but in the constant quest for more effective remedies, I find myself more and more focussed on the mental aspect of this skill.

I don't do Skype lessons and do not actively seek work with players with problems, so I am not touting for work here. Just saying where I am after 45 years at this.

Chris

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-20 6:31 a.m.

"we try not to accept people with obvious mechanical issues at audition" is also how they look at it in Stockholm.

I additioned for two different programs in 1982, one to be a "trombone player/musician" and the other to be a "trombone player/teacher". I was accepted at the teaching program. At the musician program only one person was accepted (some years there were none) and I do think they resoned just as Chris describes it.

It would have been difficult to participate in all those courses involving playing without having a solid ground mechanically and in my case I was in the second year after a complete change of emboushure technique. Any emboushure trouble would have limit me to fulfill the program and to be frank I was not completely done with it. It would have been much frustration. The teaching program was a better match for me back then even though I did not see it at the time.

On the teaching program we focused on methodology and brass teaching. What we didn't do was to especially study emboushure problems in depth. It would have been a very interesting course if a suitable teacher with such material had been assigned to do a course like that.

Since it is a very delicate matter and many brass players have their own opinion of what works and what is the sole solution of how to play a brass instrument just the creation of such a course would fast become a can of worms. Often it is musicians who are fantastic brass musicians who also have the strongest opinions. The fact they are so good makes it very hard to question them. Thats one reason why it is not as easy to introduce and plan such a course on national music college level.

The catch is you can not present a sientific truth of any mythology to work, not in a format that we all agree to. To be successful and to get acceptance you need statistic proof of the methods you use to work. How do you do that? Stastistic proofs is about counting numbers and to do experiments that can be measured and documented. You need to proove that every step in a pointed direction can be predicted, not because you say so but because the proofs are there and can be checked. The test must be possible to repeat and results must then be the same. It is a very complex matter when it comes to such unpredictable issues as people. Just think of the subjects maths, physics, chemistry. They are all based on science. History is a strange subject that can be changed depending on the winner of wars who writes it. Religion is strange too. It is as unpredictable as History. Language? That is not an exact science either, nor painting, gymnastics or music. All the unpredictable subjects has to do with people. How can we make "emboushure" be a special science in brass playing, as the need to produce a sound (any sound) on a trombone that is just one of all the instruments we use to produce some kind of music? It is a real challenge to make science out of that, and to be successful with it.

Just think of the eternal questions "to buzz or not to buzz?", "is the buzz in the mouthpiece the same buzz as when the mouthpiece is inserted in the horn?" Not even those questions have one clear answer that can be presented as "facts" to exclude one or the other. There are believers on both sides and it depends on the outcome. What do you want? Not even this is a scientific fact.

There are some facts about how to produce sound and play the trombone and those are what we were taught. The things needed to solve my own problems was given to me in private lessons in steps only relevant to me and my playing. It took years after I graduated to overcome the problems. It is just until resently, maybe the last 10 years that I can play effortlessly and I'm still solving problems and getting better mechanically. With better mechanics follows better confidence and the possibility to play the trombone more musical, so I'm making great progress in every aspect of playing.

It's in the best interests of the students that the ones with mechanical problems are not accepted at the higher education programs. It may be an "inherited" non issue for them who are accepted that emboushure problems is a non issue because of that, but I think there are a teacher for all. Some students - possibly they who later in their carrer get an emboushure problem - choose to specialize on the mechanics and make a name out of them selves as emboushure-fixers and it is fine with me. What would be great is if there was less intolerance in the field teaching. I see every teacher as an expert and resource. You try everything and pick what works to make it successful as a student.

/Tom

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-20 10:22 a.m.

I certainly realize the need to audition in order to maximize success. But the unfortunate truth is that the entire system is set up to produce great musicians who know how to play and teach music but not fix the very real problems that sometimes end the careers of those same great musicians.

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-20 10:59 a.m.

In the US, you can find dozens of public schools that still select students by looking at their lips, teeth, faces, and fingers and give them an instrument based off how these things look when they are 8, 9, or 10 years old.

Often if these students are not successful immediately at creating passable sounds, these students are doomed, because the instruction for brass is so poor they are usually just passed along through the system until they either quit or change instruments.

On the other end of this spectrum are the people who pick up the horn and sail through their instruction, and are often told they either have “natural chops” or that they must be working harder than others.

For those who don’t quit and try to make a go out of playing brass in college, they then show up to audition for someone like Chris, and either be accepted, and turned away, based on no small part on whether they were lucky enough to have figured out the right way to play when they were young.

Chris, no body is questioning whether you are a great musician or a great teacher. Your presence here and willingness to engage in this discussion is greatly appreciated. But what I am interested, in and what Dave and Doug both already have done is evaluate the effectiveness and fairness of these systems, and find new, better ways of teaching that actually work for everyone.

At the end of the day, what I was able to learn from Dave and Doug was that teaching brass is NOT the mystery many people make it out to be. There ARE concrete and easily observed principals about embouchure that SHOULD be understood by anyone and everyone who is teaching or playing at a high level. This is simply not the case currently. It shouldn’t be controversial to promote a somewhat consistent common pedagogy that is known to work.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 11:06 a.m.

A RED HERRING ????????? Dave, did you really post that ??????

WOW!!!!!

What is it that controls everything you do ??? Control....that's the interesting bit..... the thing that directs us to post here, play in a group, live, laugh and love.... the bit in charge. That's the ultimate key to achievement.... the brain.

No need to shout at me, Chris. I can read your words just fine from over here. :hi:

Andrew started this topic to discuss the broad question of why embouchure mechanics aren't a subject of some study in higher education. The brain and its role in trombone playing seems to be off topic.

I'm not at all interested in playing bass trombone. I did take it seriously in school, including playing bass trombone in graduate school wind ensemble and the local orchestra as a sub. It made me a better teacher, but I've left that behind. What I wouldn't do is go into a topic here about bass trombone and advocate for tenor trombone because it's superior.

(But it is. :tongue: )

Dave himself was in a Master's program when things fell apart and his teacher brought him to me - because HE didn't know how to fix it.

It was a doctoral program, but who's counting.

And while the correction was conceptually easy, it did take hard work and time for it to settle in. Fortunately for me, it happened at the beginning of a summer break from graduate school, but I did have gigs and a European tour to play later in the summer. The director was pretty angry with me at the time, but I muddled through and by the time school started back up I was OK. I would have had a lot of trouble making this correction during the school year.

I had excellent teachers since high school and all the way through graduate school and beyond. But none of my teachers until Doug were able to help with this. Ideally, I would have learned this in high school, then I wouldn't have had to reach the point where I had to struggle and resolve my issues while continuing with my studies and gigs.

The catch is you can not present a sientific truth of any mythology to work, not in a format that we all agree to.

What we can agree to are the objective observations of how brass embouchures function, how they differ from player to player, and what characteristics correlate with problems. As I mentioned above, these are not difficult concepts to grasp and have been observed independently by many before.

I will try to put together a demonstration to help you understand better later, Tom.

Dave

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-01-20 11:45 a.m.

[quote="blast"]I knew what was happening and how to correct it, but the relentless stream of performance exams, scales, excerpts and solo and performance classes, ensembles of all kinds meant that every time we came close to correcting things, the simple need to produce some kind of result took us back to square one.[/quote]

[quote="Wilktone"]And while the correction was conceptually easy, it did take hard work and time for it to settle in. Fortunately for me, it happened at the beginning of a summer break from graduate school, but I did have gigs and a European tour to play later in the summer. The director was pretty angry with me at the time, but I muddled through and by the time school started back up I was OK. I would have had a lot of trouble making this correction during the school year.[/quote]

I've seen this in my own, admittedly limited, experience. Even at the high school level. You've got a student who, in spite of "issues", is someone the director has come to rely upon to carry a part (maybe even an entire section). Then they hit a wall. No matter how hard they work, they just stop improving. They find someone who can help them, but it requires that "settling in" period Dave mentioned. Next thing you know, the director is angry, the other students (particularly at the high school level) are cruel, and our protagonist is miserable. Some make it through, but a lot of them never come back.

I don't know what the solution is. In a perfect world, every beginner would have access to someone who could guide them toward developing an embouchure that fit their facial structure. In our less-then-perfect world, it's often just a matter of developing something that makes a sound.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 11:48 a.m.

Another reason why I think brass embouchure mechanics doesn’t get studied much in higher education is because it requires teachers and players to change their thinking. It’s one thing to point out factual errors or make a nuanced update, but to really change minds, research suggests that we should provide a better alternative.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://journals.sagepub.com/stoken/rbt ... /full#_i20">https://journals.sagepub.com/stoken/rbtfl/FNCpLYuivUOHE/full#_i20</LINK_TEXT>

Providing an alternative causal explanation of the event can fill the gap left behind by retracting misinformation. Studies have shown that the continued influence of misinformation can be eliminated through the provision of an alternative account that explains why the information was incorrect.

In the spirit of applying a little brain research to this topic, I’d like to see if I can fill the gap for those of you who might still be interested.

Here is a video I took about 10 years ago. This tubist came to me with an issue that he hadn’t gotten any effective help with at the arts magnet school he had attended. Entrance to this school is pretty exclusive. His tuba instructor there was well regarded (and still is).

There are a handful of things that could be corrected with this tubist's embouchure, but one in particular is causing this musician problems. Conceptually, this is something that a woodwind player teaching high school band can understand and learn how to correct.

How many of us see it?

<YOUTUBE id="2_Qm8rw7m_4">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/2_Qm8rw7m_4</YOUTUBE>

imsevimse · 2019-01-20 12:01 p.m.

He change between upstream and downstream and the problem is obvious on those notes where he is neither up or downstream. At fast runs he crack in the middle. He is more successful in big leaps. If we could not see this in the plastic mouthpiece it would have been remained as hidden. I can see why the tuba teacher did not spot that.

What to do about it except showing him the video?

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 12:21 p.m.

If we could not see this in the plastic mouthpiece it would have been remained as hidden.

Hidden visually, yes. You can hear this happen too, albeit it's not as obvious in what he's playing here. I can post more video of him if you want to see that.

He also had some range issues. His high range caps out pretty abruptly and had been there for a long time.

What to do about it except showing him the video?

Well, you spotted his problem very quickly. What do you think? What would you try to help figure out what he needs to be doing?

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-20 12:28 p.m.

Maybe that tubist just needs to work on his air more....

/sarcasm

imsevimse · 2019-01-20 12:28 p.m.

Well, you spotted his problem very quickly. What do you think? What would you try to help figure out what he needs to be doing?

Yes the plan is the big thing!

He probably needs to do a change big enough to overcome that switch

Even if it sometimes can be difficult to diagnose what's wrong it is not the biggest challenge. The big challenge is to help the student correct the problem. For this there need to be a plan from the start

For example;

If you look in the mirror and notice you have big movements in your emboushure outside the mouthpiece then it is very easy to tell the student that this is a problem. You can tell that student to go and have a look in the mirror and try to hold still, but does it solve the problem? Who needs to do the work? It is still the student who need to transform that information to something that works. There are different methods to do this. I had a very good teacher who inspired me to do a change and the methods he used may have been completely different from another teacher. There are more ways to scin a cat. His methods turned out to work and today I'm so grateful. If he had done this differently I'm not sure I had been able to do it. The problems I had, probably would have made most quit playing.

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 12:42 p.m.

Tom, I think there is a more direct and simpler solution. You are on the right track. Let me see if I can guide you towards what I think.

First, can we agree that the switch between upstream and downstream certainly correlates with the cracked notes? Again, I can show some other video footage of this player that is more obvious.

Secondly, another clue is that he has a high range cap.

What is the primary influence on a brass embouchure air stream direction? A very direct suggestion for this player to try is found in the answer.

Dave

imsevimse · 2019-01-20 12:51 p.m.

He might have to do the same receipt I gave myself when I decided to get rid of my "smile emboushure". I also changed from upstream to downstream when I did my change. How I did it? I worked from top to bottom and started as high as I could downstream and took it one hafstep at the time. I started at high C, a note I had never been able to play with my smile emboushure and from there I tried to go as low as I could. In the beginning I could only do one octave before the smile and upstream returned instinctively. Half year later I was a better player than I was before. I did it with chromatics

He need to decide either if he should play upstream or downstream and do something similar.

I remember when I got that C to be a big moment to me. It gave me the commitment to go through it. I thought "If I suddenly can get this high note with this new emboushure, a note I have never been able to produce, how right must this then be? I have never been able to get this note with the smile emboushure I have used for long as I can remember, since I started to play"

/Tom

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-20 1:04 p.m.

I just want to take this opportunity to thank Dave for this video of his that he referenced here. I've watched it several times. It's super-informative, and for the record, I would not have been able to diagnose that tubist's issue before watching it.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-20 1:05 p.m.

"He probably needs to do a change big enough to overcome that switch."

YES!

"Either he needs to remain upstream or change to downstream."

YES!

"Probably work a lot just below or under the point where he switch and go up or down one note at the time and gradually move the switch to a point he no longer needs it."

NO!

What happened to "a change big enough to overcome that switch"? Why prolong it by treating a symptom while ignoring the problem?

The correct first step is testing to reach an actual diagnosis. This player is using a combination of different embouchure types that conflict. You can't really fix it without an understanding of the possibilities.

Tom, it sounds like you fixed your own problem the right way, working from one side, not both.

imsevimse · 2019-01-20 1:17 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]"He probably needs to do a change big enough to overcome that switch."

YES!

"Either he needs to remain upstream or change to downstream."

YES!

"Probably work a lot just below or under the point where he switch and go up or down one note at the time and gradually move the switch to a point he no longer needs it."

NO!

What happened to "a change big enough to overcome that switch"? Why prolong it by treating a symptom while ignoring the problem?

The correct first step is testing to reach an actual diagnosis. This player is using a combination of different embouchure types that conflict. You can't really fix it without an understanding of the possibilities.

Tom, it sounds like you fixed your own problem the right way, working from one side, not both.[/quote]

Sorry about that both Dave and Doug. I decided to remove that thing in bold and that's why it is no longer in my first post, and now you made a comment about it because you had not seen my update. To set things straight. Yes, you are right. The reason I removed this is I changed my mind when I recalled my own journey

/Tom

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-20 1:19 p.m.

Good. But that is the typical approach taken by almost all teachers.

It can provide an apparent immediate imorovement - but does nothing to fix the actually problem, it only hides it better.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-20 2:13 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Good. But that is the typical approach taken by almost all teachers.

It can provide an apparent immediate imorovement - but does nothing to fix the actually problem, it only hides it better.[/quote]
Yes it is an approach that teachers who themselves have never experienced such a problem would se as logical, because in this case the tuba player is rather good and to wreck everything with such a big change we are talking about could be devastating to his playing.

The first thing that will happen is probably that he can not play anything at all either low or high, depending on if he choose upstream or downstream. Some would not survive this backlash as a player and quit when they face such a drastic effect.

I must admit I would not have talked this student into a change based only on the sounds he is doing. I had not been able to diagnose that without the video.

If I had used a plastic mouthpiece which I did not use when I worked as a teacher and had discovered the problem I think I had handled the "What to do" the same way my teacher handled my situation.

I had told the student he has a switch in his emboushure that is the cause of his problems. Then I had probably told him about my own journey and how I fixed my "smile emboushure". I had not insisted in a change but I would tell him that the problems need to be taken care of if he ever want to be a professional player. If he then would decide he wanted more advice I would ask the student to start on his highest note and go chromatically from that note.

It is not as easy to give this student that same "lightning bulb" I got when I discovered immediately that I got a note I never had played in my life before. This student is on tuba so his concern should be to go low. Yeah, that immediate "reward" would not be as obvious.

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 2:20 p.m.

Tom, you're very close to what I suggested to this tubist, but you may be missing an important bit of information that will help enormously.

Andrew, have you figured out what I'm driving at yet?

Perhaps this will help. Here are photographs of two different trombonist's embouchures. One is upstream, the other downstream. If they were playing on a normal mouthpiece you would still be able to have a very good idea as to which was the downstream and upstream embouchure. Ignore what you see on the inside temporarily. What is the obvious difference from the outside?

I've intentionally picked two more obvious examples for the demonstration.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-20 2:33 p.m.

The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure

Their placement suggest this, that's all I can say. The tubist has a centered mouthpiece placement. It might be easier for his overall change if he moved his mouthpiece slightly either down or up. Since he has not much room above (because there is his nose) he could try to move the mouthpiece down slightly. In that case the advice would be to play downstream but since it is only a slight change I would not suggest this (downstream). I think I would leave that to the student to decide since a tuba mouthpiece is so big. I'm not sure this has to be done but it might help make a change come easier.

/Tom

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-20 2:58 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Andrew, have you figured out what I'm driving at yet?[/quote]

I've watched the whole set of videos (and, if memory serves, remember the original wasn't broken up), and I've gotten two lessons from Doug which included me grilling him a bit on these mechanics. Not enough, I know, but way better than nothing.

I'm not clear on a step further: how to predict if someone might be an upstream or downstream (or even better, type I, II, or III) player before seeing them play. Seeing if someone has an overbite or an underbite seems to be a place to start, but it seems to me to be not that in general, as I know very good upstream players who don't have an underbite. Relative sizes and lengths of the lips? Curves formed by relative angles of teeth and/or jawbones to each other? Other stuff? I don't really know how to break that down reliably.

Edit:

Speaking of that playing sample from the tuba student, I have no idea if this observation applies to his past experiences, but it's a pretty common concept in a lot of mistaken brass instruction that the airstream goes straight down the mouthpiece, which for some people may explain why some people try to play with the mouthpiece very centered when they may be better off otherwise. It's pretty obvious for this tubist once you see the lips flipping the direction of the airstream mid-phrase. Not so much if you don't expect that.

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-20 3:17 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]<QUOTE author="Wilktone" post_id="75900" time="1548012011" user_id="220">
Andrew, have you figured out what I'm driving at yet?[/quote]

I'm not clear on a step further: how to predict if someone might be an upstream or downstream (or even better, type I, II, or III) player before seeing them play. Seeing if someone has an overbite or an underbite seems to be a place to start, but it seems to me to be not that in general, as I know very good upstream players who don't have an underbite. Relative sizes and lengths of the lips? Curves formed by relative angles of teeth and/or jawbones to each other? Other stuff? I don't really know how to break that down reliably.

</QUOTE>

I've also been trying to observe and predict what someone's embouchure type maybe before seeing them play based on their anatomy. There's an assumption though with this that whatever way they play is already correct for their face, so there's lots of room for error, if they happen to have anatomy suited to one type but play with a different type (like this tubist).

One good clue that I've learned from Doug about a classic sign of anatomy suited to upstream players is the length of a players top lip relative to their bottom, specifically a shorter top lip than the bottom lip. But even with that information it's more just for my own amusement to guess peoples embouchure function without really watching them play.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-01-20 3:53 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure

Their placement suggest this, that's all I can say. The tubist has a centered mouthpiece placement. It might be easier for his overall change if he moved his mouthpiece slightly either down or up. Since he has not much room above (because there is his nose) he could try to move the mouthpiece down slightly. In that case the advice would be to play downstream but since it is only a slight change I would not suggest this (downstream). I think I would leave that to the student to decide since a tuba mouthpiece is so big. I'm not sure this has to be done but it might help make a change come easier.

/Tom[/quote]
The placement of the mouthpiece can be more upperlip or more lower lip, sometimes it is hard to judge because the placement is so close to centerd. The airstream leaves the embouchure hitting the upper part of the mouthpiece if the mouthpiece placed low, less upperlip more lower lip, the airstream goes up. More upper lip less lower lip the stream goes down. The tuba players placement is almost centerd, but to me it look like more upper lip.

I would say that his corners are very lose when he is playing low. If he will keep studying tuba he may have to find a way to keep the corners more firm, the tuba has to go much lower than that. His lower lip does prodrud and make him look like an "uppstream", i think is just to loose. He does play good, he might fix that problem himself if nobody help. Would be nice to see a more resent wideo?

marccromme · by **marccromme** » 2019-01-20 4:09 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure

Their placement suggest this, that's all I can say.[/quote]

.... except that logic dictates it's the other way around: If you play with more of the upper lip than the lower lip - high MP placement - than the upper lip is more easily pushed outwards by the ait pressure from inside (larger lip areal), so the air stream would be directed downwards (cause the lower lip is more on the inside of the opening).

.. that is at least how I play with high mouthpiece placement.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-01-20 4:15 p.m.

The edinburgh university and the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm has mady studys of brass embouchure, and made mechanic embouchure. Even though the results are interesting, I don´t think they are any help to most brass teachers.

I got my brassteachers paper 1966. I did teach in the public school very little, I had lots playing gigs. 1983 I started to teach at the only music gymnasium in Sweden at that time. Nobody asked for my papers. I worked at two universitys for 25 years, nobody asked for my papers.

As teachers i admire Dennis Wick, Arnold Jacobs and many more. Of course there is a very important phsycologic side of making music on trombone like other instruments. You cant play with just the right mpc placement.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 4:40 p.m.

You cant play with just the right mpc placement.

Of course, but no one has argued otherwise. But if the mouthpiece placement you've been taught by your teachers is wrong for you, what is a serious student to do? You don't need to be an embouchure expert to follow what's going on with the tubist I'm using as an example. See more below.

The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure

Reverse your description and you've got it (top photo with more upper lip inside is downstream, lower photo with more lower lip inside is upstream).

It might be easier for his overall change if he moved his mouthpiece slightly either down or up.

Now you're on the right track.

I'm not clear on a step further: how to predict if someone might be an upstream or downstream (or even better, type I, II, or III) player before seeing them play.

For now, I wouldn't dwell on trying to predict how someone will play based on anatomy.

There's an assumption though with this that whatever way they play is already correct for their face, so there's lots of room for error, if they happen to have anatomy suited to one type but play with a different type (like this tubist).

Yes, I think it's best to work with a student based on what you see and hear while they are playing. Sometimes this involves trying out some different things and seeing what and how it works.

Let's continue with this tubist. Here are a couple of other clips that happened as I asked him to demonstrate playing some octave slurs that took him to the very top of his range. Note his verbal responses to my questions. Listen closely to the intonation on the two high E's he plays in the second clip in this video. Which one sounds flatter than the other?

<YOUTUBE id="jp8i-Qjx5ls">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/jp8i-Qjx5ls</YOUTUBE>

Now what would you recommend for this tubist? A higher mouthpiece placement or a lower one?

Dave

imsevimse · 2019-01-20 5:05 p.m.

[quote="marccromme"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="75901" time="1548012834" user_id="3173">
The placement of the mouthpiece is obviously different. You could suspect the first player to be upstream and the second to be downstream, but I would not be 100% sure

Their placement suggest this, that's all I can say.[/quote]

.... except that logic dictates it's the other way around: If you play with more of the upper lip than the lower lip - high MP placement - than the upper lip is more easily pushed outwards by the ait pressure from inside (larger lip areal), so the air stream would be directed downwards (cause the lower lip is more on the inside of the opening).

.. that is at least how I play with high mouthpiece placement.
</QUOTE>
Yes, that makes more sense when I think of it.

Let's continue with this tubist. Here are a couple of other clips that happened as I asked him to demonstrate playing some octave slurs that took him to the very top of his range. Note his verbal responses to my questions. Listen closely to the intonation on the two high E's he plays in the second clip in this video. Which one sounds flatter than the other

What I can see and hear is he has easier to play high when his mouthpiece placement is low and his upper lip is very close to the rim and since he then has more bottom lip he is then probably playing upstream (hope I got that right now <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> ). I find it very difficult to give the advice to place the mouthpiece that low. It does not look right to me but the way the lips work when he is playing high and has his mouthpiece placement in the middle does not look right either. That looks a bit like a "smile" to me. Not a terrible smile but his mouth corners are back and it almost causes a leak. Actually I am not sure about what to give for practice to correct that at all. He needs to put more focus to the center of his lips and push the corners forward.

I think I would advice the student to move the mouthpiece a little lower to make a very slight change because it needs to feel different or else there will be no change, then I would advice him to push his mouth corners forward, they must be more firm when he plays over all. I still think he should start high and play from top to bottom and do chromatics to fix the firm corners. He should stop whenever the switch happens because it will happen many times as he relerns. He should only do chromatics from high to low. That's what I give him to play for a week.

/Tom

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2019-01-20 5:15 p.m.

Here’s a few random bits of advice that I’ve received over the past couple of years that are rattling around in my brain these days:

1. R Sauer talked about aiming for a point in your mpc. Low = nearly straight down the throat; high = downward, just inside the rim

2. D Elliot (I was a downstream med high / placement) talked about the embouchure being in essence a single not a double reed instrument (cf S Burtis/C Caruso saloon door analogy).

Also, in an interview, Dick Nash talked about rolling his lower lip inwards to play high.

All of this has me tightening my corners and reducing the aperture, and arching the back of the tongue in the high register. I don’t know if this makes any sense. It seems to be working a bit.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-20 5:45 p.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]I find it very difficult to give the advice to place the mouthpiece that low. It does not look right to me but the way the lips work when he is playing high and has his mouthpiece placement in the middle does not look right either to me. That looks a bit like a "smile" to me. Not a terrible smile but his mouth corners are back and it almost causes a leak. Actually I am not sure about has to correct that at all.[/quote]

Very low placement is uncommon but not unheard of at the highest levels; in of itself it's not necessarily wrong. Two fairly famous players with very low placements I can think of are Walter White on trumpet:

<YOUTUBE id="Ag4bA9uxMUI">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag4bA9uxMUI</YOUTUBE>

and Dick Nash on trombone. Unfortunately, I had trouble finding clips of him playing where the camera angle actually shows his setup; most of the clips picked bad angles.

<YOUTUBE id="GO0i3xCtEtM">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0i3xCtEtM</YOUTUBE>

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-20 6:11 p.m.

I like the direction this discussion is going. Thanks Dave for selecting some good examples.

There are usually multiple choices in how to go about fixing problems, and they don't necessarily leave the player unable to sound good... but sometimes that's a necessary part of the process.

To me the tubist looks like when playing upstream, everything just falls nicely into place. What did he end up doing, or is it too early to tell?

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 6:40 p.m.

What I can see and hear is he has easier to play high when his mouthpiece placement is low and since he then has more bottom lip he is then probably playing upstream (hope I got that right now <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> ).

Yep, you're following.

Here are some clips of some early experiments with playing his entire range on an upstream embouchure. Note that he is able to play from high to low and back up with an upstream embouchure placement. This setting has eliminated his break and also his high range cap.

<YOUTUBE id="yIWZsxG68dw">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/yIWZsxG68dw</YOUTUBE>

That looks a bit like a "smile" to me. Not a terrible smile but his mouth corners are back and it almost causes a leak. Actually I am not sure about what to give for practice to correct that at all. He needs to put more focus to the center of his lips and push the corners forward.

And it is more obvious in the above video. But now that we have a pretty good idea what embouchure type this tubist should be playing on, we could make those corrections and not have the air stream flip get in his way.

To me the tubist looks like when playing upstream, everything just falls nicely into place. What did he end up doing, or is it too early to tell?

For what it's worth, at the time this student came to me (about 10 years ago) he was continuing to play tuba for his scholarship, but he had chosen jazz piano as his major.

He was initially very reluctant to make this change and I didn't press him on it. After a while he reconsidered, started to make more of an effort with it and did make some good improvements, but he then left school and was planning to go somewhere else for a degree in piano in a year or two. I've lost touch with him, so I can't follow up.

I find it very difficult to give the advice to place the mouthpiece that low.

Most teachers do. Upstream players are in the minority, mostly because of the rarer anatomical features that make it correct for a player, but also because it is actively and incorrectly discouraged by teachers who should know better. I can go into more detail on this, but I want to poke around my video clips for a different example to show a different embouchure characteristic.

Dave

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 7:13 p.m.

Here are three short clips of a trumpet player who came to me looking for help with his upper register. His embouchure issue is more subtle than the tubist's, so I'll give you some clues.

First, his air stream direction isn't his issue. Some of this video has him playing into a transparent mouthpiece, so I'll ask everyone to let me know if you think it's a downstream or upstream embouchure. Do you think you could now have a reasonable guess at which without needing to use a transparent mouthpiece, based on his lip ratio alone?

Second, for now ignore his overall embouchure stability (mouth corners, jaw moving around a bit, etc.). Those are some things that could be worked on here, but it's not what's ultimately making him work so hard for his upper register.

For your last clue, focus your attention on the space between the mouthpiece and nose as he plays these octave slurs. Can you see what he's doing (or maybe not doing) that makes the high Cs difficult and flat?

<YOUTUBE id="VxcnAz5rBl0">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/VxcnAz5rBl0</YOUTUBE>

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-20 7:40 p.m.

I wonder why the clear mouthpieces retain the weird outer shape that typical mouthpieces have, because that adds distortion we have to try to look around to see what's happening inside the cup. Why not have a clear mouthpiece where the outer shape is more like the Lindberg mouthpieces, so there's less visual distortion?

I can't really tell what direction he's blowing.

Although, from what I can tell, I can see the upper lip moving up to go down and moving down to go up - which isn't typical for a high placement downstream player as far as I know.

There's also a clue in how moisture droplets seem to be more 'stable' on top of the mouthpiece but due to how that mouthpiece outer shape around the rim is, I can't really see for sure.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-20 9:03 p.m.

I wonder why the clear mouthpieces retain the weird outer shape that typical mouthpieces have, because that adds distortion we have to try to look around to see what's happening inside the cup. Why not have a clear mouthpiece where the outer shape is more like the Lindberg mouthpieces, so there's less visual distortion?

Reinhardt made some. Doug makes his own. The ones I'm showing in these videos were made by Kelly Mouthpieces, and I think they are made from a mold. They weren't designed to be used as embouchure aids, but were designed to be able to made from different colored plexiglass. While it take some more effort to get a close look at the lips inside with the Kelly Mouthpieces, they make up for it with how cheap they are. The transparent mouthpieces develop small cracks in them over time which make it necessary to replace them once in a while. Furthermore, while conducting this embouchure research I was required by the Institutional Review Board protocols for using human subjects to use a bleach/water substance to disinfect the mouthpieces between uses for different players. That gets them cloudy much faster.

I can't really tell what direction he's blowing.

Can you tell which lip is predominant inside the mouthpiece? You guessed a downstream embouchure type.

Although, from what I can tell, I can see the upper lip moving up to go down and moving down to go up - which isn't typical for a high placement downstream player as far as I know.

You're on the right "track" (that's a pun, for folks in the know), but I want to catch up the other folks first. Here is a video of two other trumpet players. Both are professional musicians with good range. Again, ignore their air stream direction for now (they are both downstream players, for the record). Instead, look at how they push and pull their lips up and down as they ascend and descend. Can you see the difference between the two?

<YOUTUBE id="zOOO4t3O5ok">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/zOOO4t3O5ok</YOUTUBE>

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-21 3:00 a.m.

These trumpet players sound good. I can see the first aim to his right when he reach for the higher octave. I have no problem with that

All three "tew" a little between the octave leaps. That could be worked on.

The mouthcornes are not as firm as they could be. They could be more forward and down instead of back. I would not call this as smile at all but there are movements that draw the lips back when they play high. This could be worked on.

It looks like the second player plays downstream when he plays the upper octave and more straight when he is playing low. That is not a problem but the movements he does whith his jaw could be smaller, after all this is not either very low of very high. It looks like he increase the distance between his teeth when he goes high and close to go low. This will cause tewing. That could be worked on.

I think what we heard was okay and then it is difficult to have a clue what correct. I would leave it with no comments if there wasn't any particular issue they brought up.

If it sounds good and it is not obviously wrong then I would not suggest any changes. Why did they seek your help?

/Tom

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-21 4:59 a.m.

You're not seeing the exact things that define an embouchure type, and that is the key to understanding how to improve playing or fix problems.

The first video's player is using strength alone to play the top octave and relaxing to play the bottom octave. The sound is thin on the top octave, and the octaves are out of tune. What Dave and I see are the things he's NOT doing.

The second video's 1st player is using the mechanical advantage of his correct Pivot or motion to reach the top and bottom octaves. Watch the upward motion for the top octave and the downward motion for the bottom octave.

Both of those players are the same embouchure type that I call Very High Placement (Reinhardt's IIIA). But they are functioning very differently. The first is working hard and the second is hardly working.

The player at the end of the 2nd video is also using his correct pivot and you can see and hear how easy it is for him - but he's the other downstream embouchure type that I call medium-high placement (Reinhardt's IIIB)

That's a very basic lesson in the two common downstream embouchure types.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-01-21 5:22 a.m.

About Tuba embouchure 2. " Listen closely to the intonation on the two high E's he plays in the second clip in this video. Which one sounds flatter than the other?"

I listened. I though isn´t that E played with low placement embouchure sharp? Then I messured with cleartone and found that to be true.

(there is an old joke in Swedish wind orchestras "It is better to sharp the to be out of tune)

The tubaist has embouchure problems both with high and low placement. I think Tom should be able to suggest some remedy.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-21 9:19 a.m.

I listened. I though isn´t that E played with low placement embouchure sharp? Then I messured with cleartone and found that to be true.

(there is an old joke in Swedish wind orchestras "It is better to sharp the to be out of tune)

You're right, when I used a tuner to check those pitches low placement E is quite a bit sharp, but then again the higher placement E is also sharp, just not as much. The real question is where the intonation is relative to each other and the rest of the instrument at that moment.

Even though I'm emphasizing the physical embouchure characteristics, don't neglect what you're hearing. Listen for tone (which is tough on these videos, the mic on the camera isn't meant for music, plus who knows what speakers you might be using to listen to them) and listen for intonation. Intonation is another objective clue into whether what that player is doing might be working for them. In the case of the tubist playing his highest possible notes, the usual placement (high register downstream) sounds flatter (lower) than the low placement (upstream) setting. This suggests two possibilities to consider, both of which give us some clues to help us figure out what's going to work best.

1. His normal setting is flat because he's playing the very top of his range and he can't quite get his lips to vibrate fast enough to get the note in tune.

2. His upstream setting is sharp because it's now easier for him to play (which he verbally stated) and also suggests that perhaps he can more easily get the lips to vibrate for those high notes.

In and of itself, I wouldn't say these are definitive clues, but teachers working with a student's embouchure can use intonation as a clue to discover which direction to go.

The tubaist has embouchure problems both with high and low placement.

Yes, but the bulk of those problems are the same, regardless of which placement he uses. The major two noted problems (the high range cap and the flip of air stream right in the middle of his range) are only present on the higher mouthpiece placement. Furthermore, I don't think that anything other than a lower placement will actually get rid of those two major embouchure issues.

In my opinion, fixing the air stream direction is the first step. Then make the other corrections.

But it should go without saying, the best solution for this tubist would have been if he had been taught this much earlier. It would have saved his struggles in a high pressured academic situation and probably made it easier for him to develop good embouchure form much faster. He wouldn't have needed to replace years of physical habit.

I think what we heard was okay and then it is difficult to have a clue what correct. I would leave it with no comments if there wasn't any particular issue they brought up.

If it sounds good and it is not obviously wrong then I would not suggest any changes. Why did they seek your help?

Tom, you're making assumptions and that's making you miss what I was hoping you'd note. Sure, the overall embouchure stability you pointed out is an important part of a player's embouchure technique, but let's leave that discussion aside until later.

The two trumpet players in the second video didn't actually come to me for help, I went to them to video record them. Pretty much all of the videos and photos I have of brass players' embouchures come from one of two research projects I conducted. The photos from the first page of this topic were taken in the late 90s as I was collecting data for my dissertation research ("The correlation between Doug Elliott's embouchure types and selected physical and playing characteristics"). The videos are from 2008-2010 and was a general project to record as many different brass players' embouchures to present a workshop on brass embouchures at the North Carolina Music Educators Conference in 2010.

The players in both of these studies range widely in age and playing experience. The time I spent with each also varies from regular lessons for years to a quick 10 minutes.

You're not seeing the exact things that define an embouchure type, and that is the key to understanding how to improve playing or fix problems.

Doug, of course, knows exactly where I was going with this.

If you're still confused (or even just for extra practice) go back and watch the 2nd trumpet video with the two players. The first player is pushing his mouthpiece and lips together up to ascend and down to descend. He does this consistently throughout his range. The second trumpet player is doing the reverse, pulling down to ascend and pushing up to descend.

This motion is an important part of a brass musician's embouchure, yet the vast majority of players don't even know it exists. I have yet to be able to closely observe a brass player of any experience level who doesn't use an embouchure motion. It really appears to be a universal feature, like the upstream and downstream types.

Now go back and look closely at the first trumpet player with the high range struggles. Can you see a consistent embouchure motion? From about the G on top of the staff and below he looks to be pushing up to ascend and pulling down to descend (much like the 1st trumpet player in the second video). But when he gets above the staff he begins to reverse this motion and starts pulling down to ascend. And he works really hard to play up there and has a limited high range.

I'll follow up in a bit after I can find the appropriate video clips.

Dave

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-21 10:37 a.m.

In helping the trumpet player with high range issues I had a guess from the beginning what he might need to do. Like Doug, my initial though was that he should be continuing to push up to ascend and try to make his embouchure function more like the the first player in the 2nd video. Some of the lesson was me testing some things out to see if that inclination was correct. Much of the lesson was "convincing" the trumpet player that this was correct.

I really didn't have to do much verbal convincing, he was open to the ideas and receptive to trying things out (not everyone always is). But what we had to do was fight against decades of habit with him to give him a chance of success. Once he was able to click with it, he both felt and heard what it was like to play with his correct embouchure motion. The next step after that is to put in the work to make the embouchure motion work correctly without conscious thought.

The following video represents some different experiments I had him try both to help me determine what would be correct for him and also to help him experience success with playing correctly for his embouchure type. I've labeled them according to what I was asking him to try out so that you can see and hear what some of this looks like.

<YOUTUBE id="whLFzpvIddQ">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/whLFzpvIddQ</YOUTUBE>

Some things I want to point out that were either left out of the video above or may not be obvious:

1. I had him spend some time playing his descending embouchure motion to his low range. If things aren't working well for a student in the upper register, looking at what works well in the middle and lower register (and what doesn't) may help you figure out what that student should be doing in the upper register.

2. Notice that I also experimented with the embouchure motion not going in a straight up and down motion, but angled off to the side. This sort of angle deviation from the straight up and down embouchure motion is fairly common, but the "track" of the embouchure motion should probably always be a straight line. For this trumpet player, we ended up with a track of pushing up and to his right side to ascend and pulling down and to his left side to descend.

3. Listen for tone and intonation as he tries these different ways of playing. He isn't always successful with what we ended up with as being correct throughout these experiments, but I think you'll see and hear the general trend in the clips.

4. Over the time trying out different things I also ended up helping him tweak his mouthpiece placement a bit (a little higher and little more to his right side). Some of the success he was getting at the later clips in the video happened after we found this spot to help open up his sound and make his playing feel easier.

5. I left in a couple of his verbal reactions. The evening after this lesson he called me up to tell me that he had been continuing to work on this and took it all the way to G above high C, a note he had never come close to before.

This trumpet player hadn't reached a terrible breakdown in his playing at this stage, he was just complaining about working very hard to play high and wanted to improve his upper register. But there are some players with very similar reversals in embouchure type that play at a very high level - until they reach a point where a demanding schedule/equipment change/or some other factor is too much and things start to break down. When it gets to this stage it can be much more difficult for the musician to make these changes and it can threaten or end a player's career.

Don't you think brass pedagogy would better serve everyone if more people had this information at their disposal?

Dave

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2019-01-21 12:44 p.m.

When he smiles at the end, it's all top teeth showing. Did he have a clear path for the air between the teeth, between the lips or were the gaps misaligned?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-21 2:14 p.m.

If it works, there must be "a clear path for the air between the teeth." Air doesn't have to travel in a straight line. And when you're creating a vibration there may be advantages to having it travel in a different path.

I have found, as Reinhardt also did, that the physical appearance - teeth or gums showing in a smile, or apparent jaw alignment, or thick or thin lips, or relative lengths of the teeth or lips - none of those are accurate predictors of embouchure type. It's a combination of the whole package that produces one configuration or another that works. Everybody's face is built differently, and for success you have to figure out what works best and go with it. It's not always easy.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-21 5:13 p.m.

I have found that it helps my emboushure to blow in an angle down to the right when I play low. It is more of a feel than something that actually can be noticed.Then I have also found it helps to "push up" when I go real high. If "push up" to ascend means raise the horn angle slightly and to have a slight more pressure on the top lip. My absolute highest note at the moment is the B natural above the five ledger f (a squeak B) and I use that "push up" above the five ledger f. I think I have slightly more top lip than bottom lip in the mouthpiece. Doug diagnosed me as a Very High Placement, or Reinhardt's IIIA the 30:th of July 2017 after I had videotaped my self and put up in a thread at the old forum.

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 492#p27613">https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=1492#p27613</LINK_TEXT>

I do believe these things work but to me I've come to what works through a lot of experiments, just a lot of trial and errors. What happens if I try this, or if I try that?

Isn't it so that if you have never questioned yourself then you have never experimented for real.

If we take a path and do not know where we are or where we are going then it doesn't really matter what direction we go. I think this is often how we just go on and on as students if we are not lead by a competent teacher. Often the teachers do the same and can not see there are different paths for a student to try.

I had to be awakened by my new teacher to even consider to do things differently.

What I think is; A change is good for a student at any level if they have not questioned themselves before. In that last movie the student is really encouraged to experiment with his playing, I think that is wonderful.

/Tom

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-22 12:10 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Don't you think brass pedagogy would better serve everyone if more people had this information at their disposal?

Dave[/quote]

I think that brass pedagogy, especially pertaining to getting people a good jump-start in their first two years of playing, is extremely well-served if more instructors had this information. That's way before people start to build the mental blocks instructors sometimes have to deal with as people get more experienced.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-22 12:21 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Here is a video of two other trumpet players. Both are professional musicians with good range. Again, ignore their air stream direction for now (they are both downstream players, for the record). Instead, look at how they push and pull their lips up and down as they ascend and descend. Can you see the difference between the two?[/quote]

The first pushes up to go high; the second pushes down to go high. I understand this is the basic difference (for downstream players) between type III and type II embouchures - is this the case with this video?

I'm not sure if I have my head wrapped around how that second embouchure works, even though it clearly does. It seems as if the lower lip is still the dominant lip in terms of controlling the aperture even though it's behind the upper.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-22 11:44 a.m.

Andrew, you're getting Reinhardt's embouchure types a bit mixed up, but I think you have the idea now. I prefer to use the three basic types Doug uses:

1. "Very High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion up to ascend and down to descend

2. "Medium High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend

3. "Low Placement" - Upstream/more lower lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend

All brass musicians will fit within one of these basic patterns, unless they are type switching (of which you can see some of the results in the two players I used as examples above).

Players belonging to the same of the three above embouchure types will usually have other features in common. For example, "Very High Placement" types usually have the mouthpiece with more upper lip inside compared with "Medium High Placement," but the placement descriptions can be deceptive. The main distinguishing feature between "Very High" and "Medium High" is the direction of the embouchure motion.

<YOUTUBE id="sE1fn45b44c">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/sE1fn45b44c</YOUTUBE>

Now if you go back to the videos of the players with issues you can look at them within the context of these three basic embouchure types. When you see a student with issues, what is that student's embouchure type? Is it the correct type for that student or are they playing on the wrong embouchure type for some reason? Is the student type switching or otherwise not following the basic embouchure mechanics for their embouchure type?

Answers to those questions can sometimes be easy and often hard. But honest, objective answers to how to best address embouchure technique with a student really can't be done unless you have a basic understanding of what to look for. Anything else is a shot in the dark and you might just be putting a band-aid on an issue that's going to be harder to fix the longer it goes on.

The more familiar you are with looking for the basic brass embouchure types (and hopefully getting feedback from someone who has more experience with your answers) the more easily you will spot what the issues like in the tubist and trumpet player I posted earlier. Sometimes you'll spot problems before they begin to develop.

I know a certain segment of brass teachers and players have already tuned out, but does this make sense to everyone? Does anyone have any specific questions about the basic embouchure characteristics and these three basic types?

Homework is to look closely at the brass players around you and see if you can type them. You don't need a transparent mouthpiece, just use your best guess based on mouthpiece placement. Octave slurs going two or more octaves help you spot the embouchure motion. Be careful to not confuse the embouchure motion based on what their horn angle does or whether or not they drop the jaw to descend (jaw drop can obscure the embouchure motion when it happens, so ask them to play in a range where they don't if you can't tell).

If you have followed this discussion and can assimilate the information you will know more about brass embouchure technique than most professional brass players and teachers.

If people are still getting something out of this I'll pull out some random video from my data and we can play guess the embouchure type.

Dave

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-22 12:18 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]If people are still getting something out of this I'll pull out some random video from my data and we can play guess the embouchure type.[/quote]

Yes, absolutely.

That last video as a summary was very good! I can spot signs in several of those last excerpts that help me categorize them according to the three categories described.

Today I have investigated my own playing based on the things I saw and heard in those videos. I have discovered that I do "push up" as I ascend much earlier than I thought I did. The reason I have not noticed this is probably because it is not much force and it is never something that I get tired from. In the extreme register it is different. Over five ledger f there is a lot of force on the top lip, and the force on the squeak B natural is tiring. So, yes I "push up" to ascend, but it has been off my mind. What I do know is I aim down to the right as I descend in the low register. That is something I do deliberately.

About this topic

A very important part of any persons development in any field is to challenge their beliefs as well as try everything and use what works. Teaching is no different. A person who is only open-minded to ideas he/she already believe in might be very skilld in his/her field but will not evolve as much as a person compared to one who choose to sit back, participate and listen. It would be interesting to see where this thread is going. So far so good <EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI>

/Tom

torobone · by **torobone** » 2019-01-22 4:18 p.m.

Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-22 5:13 p.m.

I'm not sure why you would even ask that question. "Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?"

The majority of players have what I call a very high placement. Some higher than others.

Dick Nash is the best example of a very low placement. Do you think he does not have a focused, centred sound?

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-22 7:27 p.m.

[quote="torobone"]Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?[/quote]

Yes. I play with a lower placement than every other low placement trombone player I’ve seen in person, with the exception of Dave Wilken.

I get complimented on my focused, centered sound more than any other aspect of my playing, but only when everything is working correctly.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-23 8:40 a.m.

I figured it would be time to show some trombone embouchures, but this trumpet player was one of the next players I happened to go to. Perhaps my choice of this player reflects some unconscious bias on my part, and that might be a clue for what embouchure type this player belongs to.

<YOUTUBE id="zLR_Fe_am74">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/zLR_Fe_am74</YOUTUBE>

No transparent mouthpiece needed to type this player. What's your guess?

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-23 11:11 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Andrew, you're getting Reinhardt's embouchure types a bit mixed up, but I think you have the idea now. I prefer to use the three basic types Doug uses:

1. "Very High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion up to ascend and down to descend

2. "Medium High Placement" - Downstream/more upper lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend

3. "Low Placement" - Upstream/more lower lip inside, embouchure motion down to ascend and up to descend
[/quote]

Right. I went back to refresh my memory via my copy of Reinhardt's encyclopedia, and his are pretty different. I guess it's important to be more specific about where these labels are coming from so I don't get myself confused.

The video immediately above is the low placement type.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-23 11:19 a.m.

More bottom lip than top lip makes him a "Low placement" and probably upstream. "Push down" to ascend and up to descend. To me the last phrase was more evident.

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-23 11:12 p.m.

Andrew and Tom, you are correct, that trumpet player fits Doug's "low placement" embouchure type. If you want to specify you could say he is a "low placement" embouchure type who aligns his teeth and has a horn angle close to straight out.

The clip I posted of that trumpet player was when I was setting up the camera. I asked him to just do his usual warm up while I got everything in place. It's a pretty good example of the "low placement" type. He had a pretty strong upper register when I recorded this video. He was very solid to E above high C and played some pretty good Gs above that for me.

This next one may be tougher to guess.

<YOUTUBE id="qxuxoQcylkw">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/qxuxoQcylkw</YOUTUBE>

I had forgotten about this trombonist. He was a college student who continued to take lessons through his freshman year, but by this point was playing in the school ensembles for fun. Watching the video I took of him I found some things that some of you might find interesting after you guess his embouchure type.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2019-01-24 2:11 a.m.

To me, he looks like he is pivoting like a medium or low placement, but I'm not sure if that's totally right for him. Watching the space between the rim and nose seems like it's really kind of all over the place or not totally consistent or obvious. His placement looks pretty much 50/50 and that moving away from that, whichever direction is correct, would probably really help him. Am I in the ballpark?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-24 3:30 a.m.

He's clearly a Mash and Blow type.

Or maybe Pinch, Mash, amd Blow.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-01-24 4:50 a.m.

The last one was difficult to see what direction the movement is. But I think he have more over lip inside the mouthpiece.

So either IIIA or IIIB. He had trouble with the high notes.

One question; I had a little (9 years old) student yesterday with some problems. I think he is IIIA like me but I see he have the underlip sticking foreward into the mouthpiece. He sounds very pincht, thin. I told him to roll the underlip in and the sound got bigger. Hope I did some right? Lets see next week. A little knowledge is dangerous but I have to try something with this little boy. The placement is clearly more overlip but he stick the underlip out. (not the jaw)

Else I can tell for the higher education in my place of the world, they dont take inside any players with obvious problems. Its a high level to get inside, and they focus to make them become musicians. But I really dont know much about that enviroment since I mostly teach children in my own work.

Leif

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-24 4:57 a.m.

With some guidance that last one might end up IIIA but he's not doing it now.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-24 10:13 a.m.

Yes, that last trombonist is harder to type than the other players. Here is some more video of him playing, this time into a transparent mouthpiece (btw, Andrew, this mouthpiece is one of Reinhardt's design).

<YOUTUBE id="UKnz4CVhPyQ">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/UKnz4CVhPyQ</YOUTUBE>

The last clip in this video was after we had been at it for a bit. I kept turning the camera off to make it easier to edit the video, but now I don't exactly recall what we had been talking about in between.

The very last part of the video happened towards the end of our session. I think that we had found a mouthpiece placement more to his right side helped him some as well as a couple of other things that might work well with some practice.

Now seeing that, what embouchure type do you suspect would be the best place to start with for him?

At this point in our discussion, three things come to mind:

1. If you've followed this far you now know more about brass embouchures than the vast majority of players and teachers (at least in the U.S.), including most at the top of those professions.

2. It takes some study and practice to apply this information in your teaching, but it's not all that hard to understand. There are plenty of examples that we can look at to show how this knowledge is useful. This goes at all levels, from beginners to professionals.

3. This discussion has spun off from its original intent, albeit a topical one. I wonder if moving this discussion into a separate topic with a more descriptive title would help more folks who would be interested find it.

AndrewMeronek · 2019-01-24 10:44 a.m.

I can't really tell for sure if that last trombonist ascends or descends to go higher in pitch. Both the camera and he is moving around a lot which makes it hard to tell. Taking a stab I'd say he lowers the mouthpiece to ascend and raises it to descend.

He has a fairly centered placement.

He is angling the horn downward relative to his chops to ascend and upward to descend, but is this always matching how the embouchure moves?

I guess my observations put him in the 'medium high placement' category. It looks like it's not working that well for him - his sound is pretty pinched. But, if he was just playing in ensembles for fun, he may not really be in any kind of shape, so the pinched sound could be from that in addition to (or instead of) embouchure problems.

I also noticed that he plays to the right of center, and that he seems to be using a perfectly vertical occlusion. Left of center is perfectly normal, but having a perfectly vertical occlusion while doing so seems to me to be unusual.

torobone · by **torobone** » 2019-01-24 10:52 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I'm not sure why you would even ask that question. "Is it possible to achieve a focused, centred sound with a very high or low placement?"

The majority of players have what I call a very high placement. Some higher than others.

Dick Nash is the best example of a very low placement. Do you think he does not have a focused, centred sound?[/quote]

Thanks, I just wanted to know the answer.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-24 10:54 a.m.

Ah, I wanted to get my response from the first video of that last student out, and it took me a bit to think through what I was seeing.

For the second video, I see that his first notes are clearly downstream.

That mouthpiece is definitely easier to see things in. :)

That motion to have the lower lip moving out and in instead of up and down seems to me to be unusual. Is that uncommon? I'm thinking that may be what's happening for some people who feel their lip 'rolling'. Seeing him do that motion in the mouthpiece does explain why it's so hard to see if he's moving the mouthpiece up or down. He isn't.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2019-01-24 11:50 a.m.

Now I'm confused. My immediate impression was IIIA by the way, not sure why. Maybe because it sounded a bit like some of my attempts.

But why I'm confused is when he does the octave slur down at :28, I thought I saw a splash of air on the top of the mouthpiece. Is he playing upstream at that point, or am I just not seeing it?

imsevimse · 2019-01-24 12:12 p.m.

I have been busy at work and came late to this one. I have not looked at the answers after that first tromboneplayer-video. I wanted to see if I could sort him out.

So my answer without consideration to any other answer is it looks like he is a "Low placement player" but it also seems like he is playing downstream and another thing is he "push down" to ascend and up to descend. The three different things to look for (placement, airstream and pivot) does not sum up to fit any of the three types.

Now I will look at your answers.

/Tom

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-24 12:28 p.m.

After have seen that second video of the tromboneplayer he is definitely a downstream player. I guess to make him a "Medium high placement" player could help him. The other choice would be to suggest an upstream emboushure to go with that low placement, but I would not suggest this. That plastic mouthpiece is a great tool :-)

I think he should continue to experiment with downstream emboushure. Maybe he could try to move the mouthpiece up a bit and change the pivot and try the reverse (Push up to ascend and down to descend). As I see it he needs to experiment with this a lot. It's great to let him try alternatives.

He must focus his lips more to the centre, from the sides. Neither of the lips does proper work inside the mouthpiece. It looks like he press the mouthpiece straight at the lips to get into his high register. His sound is also very pinched.

/Tom

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-24 4:02 p.m.

Exactly. What he's doing is really not working well and it's time to look at alternate scenarios. This one is not a matter for small adjustments. His 50/50 placement is just wrong.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-01-25 6:04 a.m.

This last players biggest problem is that he is compressing his lips to much and is not using his air.

To much lip power to weak air-flow, well there is no air-flow really. The mouthpiece placement is hard to do anything

about as long as he does not blow his horn, I would have him to sing, yes sing with his voice to feel the air-flow.

Sing wath is gonna be played, listen for a good sound, play the horn the same way. Eventually he may find his personal best mouthpiece placement.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-25 9:23 a.m.

This last players biggest problem is that he is compressing his lips to much and is not using his air.

To much lip power to weak air-flow, well there is no air-flow really. The mouthpiece placement is hard to do anything

about as long as he does not blow his horn, I would have him to sing, yes sing with his voice to feel the air-flow.

Sing wath is gonna be played, listen for a good sound, play the horn the same way. Eventually he may find his personal best mouthpiece placement.

I think you're missing the point. Sure, if you've got nothing else to go on you're better off helping with something, but address the problem, not the symptom.

I don't want you to get the impression that I don't think it would be helpful for this trombonist to improve breathing and work on singing. Those are useful and would probably make for improvements in his playing. But I see no way that breathing and singing are going to have any noticeable effect on any player's mouthpiece placement. That's ignoring this trombonist's problem and hoping it goes away if you work on something else. It didn't work with the tubist or the trumpet player I posted earlier, why do you think it should work with this trombonist?

Now I will concede that it may be useful to prioritize and work on something else for a time, particularly since it's not clear yet how this trombonist would play best. In fact, I think the most important thing this trombonist should have been doing for his playing is pick up his horn more than 2-3 times a week for a rehearsal. If he was playing more regularly we would probably be able to better determine his correct embouchure type.

But the essential point is that you return to diagnosing the problem later when it makes more sense to address it, not ignore it and hope that it fixes itself. Not addressing it for real is exactly what sometimes causes good players to suffer breakdowns later. It also makes for uninformed students who go on to become uninformed teachers and perpetuate the culture of ignorance.

Exactly. What he's doing is really not working well and it's time to look at alternate scenarios. This one is not a matter for small adjustments. His 50/50 placement is just wrong.

For what it's worth, I did experiment with that trombonist more, including asking him to play with both a "very high placement" and "low placement" embouchure types. I really can't post anything that I think definitively points to any particular type, but my best guess is that he would settle in as a "medium high placement." Again, that presumes that he decided to be more serious about practicing. If a student isn't all that interested, then you might as well just help him have fun and let it be.

Here's a different trombonist. What's his type? There are also some inconsistencies in his player that could make for overall improvements. What do you see that you might try?

<YOUTUBE id="CIQXJwzPeUI">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/CIQXJwzPeUI</YOUTUBE>

Dave

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-01-25 10:37 a.m.

He is downstream, IIIA? He have a lot of movement down to the pedal. Maybe try to put his mouthpiece a tiny bit down? And not move the jaw forward on the higher notes? By the way his corners could be more stable, maybe frebuzz would help? His low register sounds good but the high is a little thin. So maybe move mouthpiece a little down on his face?

Interesting topic, I do not know so I have to guess. He should be glad I am not his teacher....

Leif

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-25 10:42 a.m.

He have a lot of movement down to the pedal.

Yes. That's pretty common.

Maybe try to put his mouthpiece a tiny bit down?

I see you're not sure about this. Why do you suspect a mouthpiece placement lower would be better?

And not move the jaw forward on the higher notes?

What do you think the role of the jaw should be?

By the way his corners could be more stable, maybe frebuzz would help?

Yes.

AndrewMeronek · 2019-01-25 10:58 a.m.

With that last one, I'd start with addressing how he's doing slurs and make sure he's doing them without that air hitch and to do them as lip glisses. I see lots of players add that air 'hitch' to slurs (where they momentarily back off on the air in the middle of the slur) as a way to try to make the slurs 'cleaner'. It's not just the embouchure motion that's the clue for that, but how there's motion in his neck as well.

Very high placement type, and it's pretty clear he's consistently moving the mouthpiece up to ascend and down to descend.

I can hear the pitch lower a bit as he holds and releases middle B-flat.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-25 11:03 a.m.

There's a lot correct about what he's doing. He just needs a little more strength and stability, and a bigger rim size would probably help in several ways.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-25 11:38 a.m.

I'm sorry, Doug, I can't give you the points because you didn't identify his embouchure type first. :tongue:

Do you have any speculation why "very high placement" type players tend to do noticeably better with larger rim sizes?

And, for that matter, what are your current thoughts on rim sizes for "low placement" type players? A while back you had me systematically try out bigger rim sizes and the larger rim made for noticeable and immediate improvement.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-25 11:50 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]There's a lot correct about what he's doing. He just needs a little more strength and stability, and a bigger rim size would probably help in several ways.[/quote]

I definitely agree - the trombonist in that last clip looks pretty good in general. It's important for me to remember to not forget to acknowledge positives in the course of trying to learn how to analyze this stuff.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-01-25 12:19 p.m.

Andrew, I agree so much. Easy to just look for negatives and forget the things that seems to be right. He do the right movement for IIIA, sliding up to ascend and have the mouthpiece high up on the mouth.

Dave, I believe the jaw movement should be more still, or opposite from what he do? Maybe IIIA players needs bigger mouthpiece to make room for the upper lip?

Leif

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-25 1:47 p.m.

In terms of function, a very high or very low type, if playing a relatively correctly, typically has a problem with playing low range without some sort of large adjustment. That may be a shift of mouthpiece placement or an excessive jaw drop, in either case disrupting the embouchure in terms of what works for the rest of the range.

A larger rim minimizes or eliminates the need for that large adjustment and therefore helps the entire range. Typically this embouchure type can play high range equally well or better on a larger rim.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-25 2:02 p.m.

One more thing-

Sometimes playing on a different size, maybe even trumpet or tuba, can help you learn mechanical things you need to learn on your primary instrument but they're not working. I think that happens sometimes with bass trombone players a play on something the size of a 1-1/2 G, then use something much larger which helps them with some of the mechanical issues of playing low notes, and then they can go back to the smaller 1-1/2 G size and have better success than they had before.

When I was first learning this stuff I tried spending a few minutes playing trumpet and it taught me a lot about mechanics. Now I'm playing some tuba and it's helping me to understand some things even better.

I have a friend who plays at a very high level although is not a professional, who has branched out with my guidance, into playing everything from piccolo trumpet through French horn, alto and tenor trombone, bass trombone, and tuba, using exactly the same embouchure mechanics on everything extremely successfully.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-25 4:27 p.m.

As usual I'm late to this one (Tromboneplayer 3) also because of work and a rehearsal with a Symphony Orchestra. I have not looked at your answers so if I'm making a fool out of myself it is not because I can't read, it is because I did not want to read, not until I made up my mind. I don't want to be influenced in any direction.

My diagnose is he looks like a "High placement player" who plays downstream, but he "Push down" to ascend and up to descend. I think he is doing rather well, but there are air pockets and some irregularities in his setup. If you compare the extremes of his register it looks very different. The low contra Bb is not very good, he is to loose in his mouth corners when he tries that note.

If he should try something new it would be either to move his mouthpiece down a bit or reverse the pivot.

/Tom

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-25 5:07 p.m.

Okay I read your answers now. It seems we agree he is doing rather well.

I thought it looked like he was doing the reversed pivot for his emboushure type, but it is not that easy to see in front and when we saw him from the side he was playing in the high register already, playing :trebleclef: b :line3: :line4: and the high f. (we need more icons of the :line2: :bassclef: :tenorclef: :trebleclef: :space2: :oops: ). The pedal Bb is straight out and when he playes his highest notes his horn angle is pointing down.

If he was my student I wouldn't suggest a change if he had not played that pedal Bb. That looked very strange. For that note he is not forming an emboushure at all.

As Doug said playing different sized mouthpieces can help correcting an emboushure. When I switched career to computing I still worked as a brass teacher but during those three and a half years of studies 1996-1999 I almost quit playing the trombone (never practiced) and only played trumpet. I did this because I had only a pair of trombone students and all the other were on trumpet.

I did get better on trumpet during that time, and the trombone was not terrible, but not as good as when I practiced. I had no gigs on trombone, I even said I had quit the trombone and said I will never play trombone again, this was if someone phoned. That was really silly :idk:

When I changed my mind and started to play trombone again the year 2000 I noticed some details in my playing had changed to the better. It did not take that long to pick up the trombone again. I don't play trumpet anymore.

/Tom

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-25 7:05 p.m.

I just found out I have no problem to switch to a "Low placement player" and to play upstream instead of downstream. The sound is a little different compared to my usual sound with "Very high placement" and downstream. It sounds like a new version of me :good: I wonder if I should experiment with this. I could spend 15 minutes a day to try to play another emboushure, just to see where that leads and to understand the mechanics.

/Tom

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-25 7:16 p.m.

Go for it, you will definitely learn something.

But I wouldn't tell someone with playing commitments to do that.... It could have the potential to mess you up, but you sound like the kind of player who can keep it separated and under control.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-01-26 6:06 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]<QUOTE>This last players biggest problem is that he is compressing his lips to much and is not using his air.

To much lip power to weak air-flow, well there is no air-flow really. The mouthpiece placement is hard to do anything

about as long as he does not blow his horn, I would have him to sing, yes sing with his voice to feel the air-flow.

Sing wath is gonna be played, listen for a good sound, play the horn the same way. Eventually he may find his personal best mouthpiece placement.[/quote]

I think you're missing the point. Sure, if you've got nothing else to go on you're better off helping with something, but address the problem, not the symptom.

I don't want you to get the impression that I don't think it would be helpful for this trombonist to improve breathing and work on singing. Those are useful and would probably make for improvements in his playing. But I see no way that breathing and singing are going to have any noticeable effect on any player's mouthpiece placement. That's ignoring this trombonist's problem and hoping it goes away if you work on something else. It didn't work with the tubist or the trumpet player I posted earlier, why do you think it should work with this trombonist?

Dave
</QUOTE>

Well, I understand that you like to talk about mpc placement first because you believe that is the most important and should come first. In this case I believe we can´t find a good working placement as long as he squeze his lips together like that he is doing. I believe that nobody introduced him to brass playing in a good way from the beginning. The remedy is to work some away from the horn. How about free-buzzing? The "sound" he´s making is the symptom here, the problem that he is doing way to much resinstance, the air is staying in his mouth. His idea about embouchure is a missunderstanding. Sometimes we have to work on something else, and latter go back to the problem we like to work on. The tuba kid was another issue though, but in no case we should not ignore any problem.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-01-26 6:18 a.m.

[quote="imsevimse"]I just found out I have no problem to switch to a "Low placement player" and to play upstream instead of downstream. The sound is a little different compared to my usual sound with "Very high placement" and downstream. It sounds like a new version of me :good: I wonder if I should experiment with this. I could spend 15 minutes a day to try to play another emboushure, just to see where that leads and to understand the mechanics.

/Tom[/quote]

Hi hi, that is exactly what I did in the 80th, not to perform like that but to be able to understand more about different embouchures. I could play with lots of embouchures including just one lip.

Actually I can still do. I could also play doubble high c and nice pedaltones on trumpet. The doubble high c is gone by now though . :hi:

Just be sure to find a good way to get back to your normal embouchure!!!!! Everytime!

Trav1s · by **Trav1s** » 2019-01-26 11:45 a.m.

Thanks for the conversation everyone. I am just here to learn

I am very curious and fascinated by it so far as I started on trumpet in elementary school, developed some bad habits and worked to correct them only to slip back into the same trap. Towards the end of 7th grade, my well-respected teacher suggested switching to another instrument. After a round-robin event with the rest of the brass family, I landed on trombone with euph a close second. After several years of getting the tbone chops developed, he moved me to a larger mouthpiece using a blind test. Once I settled into that mouthpiece, I stuck with it until I went to ITF 2018 and was fitted by Doug. In the end, a wider rim is a better fit for me, no matter the horn I am playing. The only caveat is that I need to practice more to stay in shape. As for my embouchure type, I am not sure I know nor is it relevant to the discussion.

Again, thanks for the conversation.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-26 4:30 p.m.

So if you can't tell or are still confused, that last trombonist is a "very high placement" type.

Doug, what you say about "very high placement" and wider rims "mirrors" my personal experience with the wider rim too. Didn't Reinhardt actually come to the opposite conclusion about upstream players and rims? Or is that just a preference of how to describe it ("play on as wide a rim as works/play on as small a rim as works")?

If he was my student I wouldn't suggest a change if he had not played that pedal Bb. That looked very strange. For that note he is not forming an emboushure at all.

Tom, I don't think he needed any major changes, but he does "collapse" his embouchure formation to get the pedal out. That could be worked on some and this could be a case where practicing playing correctly in the lower register could help him work out how to better play in his upper register.

It would have been interesting to see a comparison with him playing on a wider rim.

Dave, I believe the jaw movement should be more still, or opposite from what he do?

Leif, regarding the jaw, I will try to find some other examples that maybe can help us understand the role the jaw has in the brass embouchure. The short answer is it's as personal as mouthpiece placement.

Sometimes we have to work on something else, and latter go back to the problem we like to work on.

Basbasun, I think we both agree on the bigger picture. I think I've confused you, though.

Well, I understand that you like to talk about mpc placement first because you believe that is the most important and should come first.

Not exactly. If I'm trying to help a student succeed, everything is equally important. As a teacher, it's my job to prioritize what a student should work on first. That's going to be different according to each student.

In the U.S., at least, the most common approach you'll find to helping players with embouchure issues is to work on breathing or mental focus or something other than looking at the embouchure. Students who need something like a mouthpiece placement change or a correction to their embouchure motion are rarely going to find breathing or musical expression fixes it completely - but it's sometimes a good way to learn how to disguise it.

So to clarify, I think it's fine to tell a student, "I don't know what to suggest for your embouchure, yet. Let's make some other corrections and come back to it." I think we are agreeing on that point.

I just found out I have no problem to switch to a "Low placement player" and to play upstream instead of downstream.

You will have to keep us posted about what you learn.

Sometimes I will demonstrate free buzzing into the horn while teaching it to a student I think can use it, even though it doesn't directly relate to how I play best. It's interesting that if I force myself to play as a "very high placement" embouchure type (which I am not) that I take on those playing characteristics, albeit with severe limitations. For example, my embouchure motion is down to ascend and up to ascend, but if I free buzz into the instrument and place like a "very high placement" type player it works better to push up to ascend.

Dave

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-26 5:24 p.m.

Very high and very low placements are best looked at as the same, upside down.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-26 7:58 p.m.

[quote="Basbasun"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="76480" time="1548461142" user_id="3173">
I just found out I have no problem to switch to a "Low placement player" and to play upstream instead of downstream. The sound is a little different compared to my usual sound with "Very high placement" and downstream. It sounds like a new version of me :good: I wonder if I should experiment with this. I could spend 15 minutes a day to try to play another emboushure, just to see where that leads and to understand the mechanics.

/Tom[/quote]

Hi hi, that is exactly what I did in the 80th, not to perform like that but to be able to understand more about different embouchures. I could play with lots of embouchures including just one lip.

Actually I can still do. I could also play doubble high c and nice pedaltones on trumpet. The doubble high c is gone by now though . :hi:

Just be sure to find a good way to get back to your normal embouchure!!!!! Everytime!
</QUOTE>

Why am I not surprised :hi:

In case you dont know Basbasun, he is a very well-renewed bass trombone player and teacher in Sweden. He was the first call on bass trombone in Sweden from the late 1960-ies and for at least 40 years and with probably more than thousonds of recording sessions. I want to explain this since the profile information here is so sparse. He was the teacher who helped me in the 80-ties and most Swedish trombone players born before the year 2000 know him by name. A lot of trombone players here have studied with him including Håkan Björkman who now is the principle of the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra and also have made some solo records.

I owe everything to him. If he had not helped me I had probably quit playing in my teens.

Now back to more videos we can type. I really enjoy this thread.

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-27 8:38 a.m.

This trumpet player is a professional musician. He happened to be recovering from Bell's palsy when I took this video, so it's not him at his best, but I think he's a good example of his particular embouchure type.

<YOUTUBE id="Bw0Fl-cqzoU">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/Bw0Fl-cqzoU</YOUTUBE>

Watch for his embouchure type first and then go back a second time and pay close attention to his jaw. What do you see?

JesusVicente · by **JesusVicente** » 2019-01-27 8:52 a.m.

Thanks for this thread! Learning a lot, despite I'm not sure yet about analysis and steps to take.

I think he is Medium High Placement, and his jaw goes forward when he plays high notes.

Maybe his embouchure is too centered? That makes him work a bit more than necessary?

Thanks

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-27 10:13 a.m.

I'll wait to reveal embouchure type after others have had the chance to do it.

Don't assume everything I am trying to point out has something to fix. In order to know how to spot something going wrong you have to know what things look like when it works well. This may be more important early on when you're just learning about this.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-01-27 10:31 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]Sometimes playing on a different size, maybe even trumpet or tuba, can help you learn mechanical things you need to learn on your primary instrument but they're not working.[/quote]

Going the other way, starting to seriously play the bass trombone showed me some basic things I wasn't doing right with my tuba embouchure (and could get away with because that can be much more forgiving on a tuba). Not anything really dramatic, but a realization of "Hey, I've been doing that not quite right,". It definitely helped me improve my tuba embouchure, resulting in better/easier articulation and pitch control.

I think that happens sometimes with bass trombone players a play on something the size of a 1-1/2 G, then use something much larger which helps them with some of the mechanical issues of playing low notes, and then they can go back to the smaller 1-1/2 G size and have better success than they had before.

Absolutely. And there are a couple of things going on here, at least in my experience. The first is the purely mechanical issues you mention. The larger mouthpiece allows you to get the "feel" you need for articulating and playing those low notes (which you haven't been able to get on the smaller mouthpiece because they're harder to articulate and play on it). The second is that the larger mouthpiece -- since with it you really can reliably articulate and play those notes -- lets you learn and fix in your mind what such a note should SOUND like and FEEL like, so you know what you're trying to produce.

I had this experience in going from a 1.5 to an MB to an LB size mouthpiece. Then at some point, I put in my Kelly 1.5 ("backup" mouthpiece) and without effort could play those notes I'd previously been unable to. Definitely not as easily (and I don't want to go back to a 1.5 for several reasons), but they're there.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-27 2:54 p.m.

That is all exactly right, great description.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-27 3:32 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Watch for his embouchure type first and then go back a second time and pay close attention to his jaw. What do you see?[/quote]

Another one with very little vertical movement, so I find it hard to tell - but I suspect the medium-high where he lowers the mouthpiece to raise the pitch. I'd say more definitely that I can see him raise the angle of the trumpet as he goes lower in pitch, and vice versa for going higher.

He's extending his lower jaw to go higher, and I'm thinking this may be a 'substitute' mechanism for getting the lower lip more engaged for the high register since he's not moving the mouthpiece much. But, this may also be contributing to the angle change I see.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-27 6:05 p.m.

As usual I'm late and have not read the comments after that trumpet player. He looks like a downstream, "Very high placement" player, push up to ascend and down to descend.

About the jaw

He moves his jaw forward which also push his mouth corners forward. It looks like there is more weight on the upper lip in the high register which is why I think he push up to ascend.

/Tom

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-27 6:50 p.m.

Given Tom's observations are pretty different from mine, I look forward to feedback from our experts. :) It goes to show - this stuff isn't always easy. :)

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-27 9:43 p.m.

There are several clues to his embouchure type.

He has a very fat sound.

His horn angle is somewhat downward.

I think his motion right in the first slurs is relatively obvious, pulling down to ascend - and it obviously works well for him.

Those are the three major characteristics of the medium-high placement (IIIB) embouchure type.

As for his jaw, I don't see it as going out or in, I see a slight opening for low notes and closing for higher notes.

Everything is working well for this player. I would only suggest minimizing the jaw opening and closing motion, which I think is mostly unnecessary.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-01-28 1:13 a.m.

Yes, I thought IIIB too! Hurray! He push just a little bit down to ascend. And his sound is really fat yes. Nearly like Chet Baker. His jaw movements are not so big. But at the end of the movie it seems he push jaw out to ascend? Maybe I watched it wrong? What jaw movement should a IIIB player have? If any?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-28 1:55 a.m.

I see that jaw now... when the video is that close it's hard to know how it looks on the entire face. Whatever he's doing is working for him. You can't necessarily generalize about what a IIIB's jaw "should" do. That embouchure type is quite variable - I've seen a lot of different-looking embouchures that would all be in that category. Sometimes you can't really see any motion.

Trombone examples of (IIIB) Medium-high placement - to show how varied they are - Jay Friedman, Ralph Sauer, Charlie Vernon, Christian Lindberg, JJ Johnson, and Dave Steinmeyer.

Basbasun · by **Basbasun** » 2019-01-28 6:13 a.m.

I see his jaw open and slightly moving in for low tone, closing and slightly moving out for higher tones.

I believe his lower lip slides over the lower teeth with the movements.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-28 8:56 a.m.

Medium high placement embouchure type for that last trumpet player. His mouthpiece placement is more upper lip inside, so it's downstream. His embouchure motion is in a downward direction (and off to his right) to ascend and up (and to his left) to descend. You'll be able to see this more clearly in the following clips from the front.

<YOUTUBE id="q4PM7znZ6S0">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/q4PM7znZ6S0</YOUTUBE>

So returning to the jaw, I think we can see that he doesn't just open/close slightly or protrude/recede, but with this player there's a significant amount of side to side motion as well. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it depends on the player. This player could perhaps minimize the amount of motion he relies upon and maybe fine tuning his horn angles as he changes octaves would make things work more efficiently so he wouldn't need to rely so much on his jaw changes.

But as a general observation, I note that this trumpet player is pretty consistent with the jaw motions. When he ascends he consistently pushes his jaw slightly forward and to his left and does the reverse to descend.

From the beginning of this video up until around 38 seconds in are clips from me just asking him to play some octave slurs for me. After about 38 seconds in I asked him to try out some different horn angle changes as he made ascending and descending slurs. Listen for intonation on the high Cs. The differences in angle changes for the low C is a little bit easier to hear and see what doesn't work for him.

What do you notice with the horn angle changes?

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-28 9:31 a.m.

I might as well get this one out of the way while I'm at it.

<YOUTUBE id="BFvw6t-5Wlk">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/BFvw6t-5Wlk</YOUTUBE>

This subject is a professional trombonist. There are some things he can do to improve his playing that you might spot. What I notice in this clip is related to his inhalations and the attacks.

I should say that while this trombonist's playing is highly questionable, he is easily the most handsome of all the brass musicians I have video recorded.

What's his embouchure type?

JesusVicente · by **JesusVicente** » 2019-01-28 9:58 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

I should say that while this trombonist's playing is highly questionable, he is easily the most handsome of all the brass musicians I have video recorded.
[/quote]
:D This video remembers me of the picture on the left hehe

Upstream. According to inhalating, is there a bit of delay between inhalating and exhalating no? A bit of tongue tension then for this. I use to keep my mouthpiece out when I inhalate, but I don't think it is a problem if you don't do that, maybe it is good thing.

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-28 9:59 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]I might as well get this one out of the way while I'm at it.

<YOUTUBE id="BFvw6t-5Wlk">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/BFvw6t-5Wlk</YOUTUBE>

This subject is a professional trombonist. There are some things he can do to improve his playing that you might spot. What I notice in this clip is related to his inhalations and the attacks.

I should say that while this trombonist's playing is highly questionable, he is easily the most handsome of all the brass musicians I have video recorded.

What's his embouchure type?[/quote]

I won’t say the embouchure type of this completely objectively handsome trombonist since I already knew it prior to this video, but I will take a guess as to what could be done to improve his playing.

I see the breaths through the corners of the mouth, but there almost seems to be a split second of hesitation between when the breath is finished and when the note is actually started - would it be advisable to try and work on starting the note more immediately after inhalation?

Also, I’m noticing your embouchure motion almost seems to reverse direction once you get to your pedal B flat each time (from right to left, not up to down). Is this something you have worked on consciously? I only ask because I’ve noticed that my pedals also seem to work best that way too.

JesusVicente · by **JesusVicente** » 2019-01-28 10:17 a.m.

I hope it is appropiate, I found this video excerpt very useful to explain breathing, it is only one minute of this interview.

<YOUTUBE id="9fBwRbgabEU" t="1348">https://youtu.be/9fBwRbgabEU?t=1348</YOUTUBE>

(btw, Mr Sorense is very high placement I guess)

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-28 11:06 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]This subject is a professional trombonist. There are some things he can do to improve his playing that you might spot. What I notice in this clip is related to his inhalations and the attacks.

I should say that while this trombonist's playing is highly questionable, he is easily the most handsome of all the brass musicians I have video recorded.

What's his embouchure type?[/quote]

Low placement, lowers mouthpiece to ascend. I'm thinking that your profile pic must be horizontally flipped.

Do you ever get into situations on some horns where the bell tubing on your neck obstructs you getting to an ideal angle in the high range? I discovered this for myself in my first Doug lesson. I adopted two solutions: on my jazz horn, I got a slide custom made with larger distance between tubes (and hence a wider crook); and on alto I flip the horn around and play it right-handed.

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2019-01-28 11:10 a.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]One more thing-

Sometimes playing on a different size, maybe even trumpet or tuba, can help you learn mechanical things you need to learn on your primary instrument but they're not working... (snip)[/quote]

Interestingly, I've always had a problem with the upper register on trumpet, I can't really get much above a written top space G without chopping out hard. I think some part of it has to do with the mouthpiece size, but some of it might be something I'm personally ineffectively doing that I haven't figured out yet that might be present in my trombone playing that doesn't hinder me as much there.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-01-28 11:44 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]I might as well get this one out of the way while I'm at it.

<YOUTUBE id="BFvw6t-5Wlk">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/BFvw6t-5Wlk</YOUTUBE>

This subject is a professional trombonist. There are some things he can do to improve his playing that you might spot. What I notice in this clip is related to his inhalations and the attacks.

I should say that while this trombonist's playing is highly questionable, he is easily the most handsome of all the brass musicians I have video recorded.

What's his embouchure type?[/quote]

I think he is upstream, IVA. He change his embouchure when he breath. I would tell him to breath through the corners without changing the lips formation that much. Im not sure but think so?

Leif

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-01-28 11:54 a.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]

Low placement, lowers mouthpiece to ascend. I'm thinking that your profile pic must be horizontally flipped.

Do you ever get into situations on some horns where the bell tubing on your neck obstructs you getting to an ideal angle in the high range? I discovered this for myself in my first Doug lesson. I adopted two solutions: on my jazz horn, I got a slide custom made with larger distance between tubes (and hence a wider crook); and on alto I flip the horn around and play it right-handed.[/quote]

I have the same embouchure type as Dave and have noticed this as well about the tubing, but only once I really started playing large bore regularly, where the tubing is usually much wider anyway. After a month straight of big horn, going back to the small bore was rough because I had to readjust to compensating for a horn with too narrow of a slide for my neck. Before that I just assumed everyone dealt with the neck tube being crammed up against them.... because of this I find myself more often going to the large bore simple because it’s more comfortable.

I was thinking about getting one of my small bores modified to have a wide slide. Who did yours, and are you happy with the results?

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-28 3:48 p.m.

My slide crook was made by Benn Hanson about 5 years ago. I don't know if he's still making them. Mine was built into a Shires slide.

I really like it. It has the 'feel' of a bigger horn even though it's only a .508 bore slide; it feels more open and there's less resistance. For people who like more resistance in the horn, this may not be a good solution, but I like less resistance.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-28 5:06 p.m.

The trumpet player moves his jaw not only back and forth but he also moves his jaw sideways. He moves to his left when he ascends and to his right and down, to descend.

The tromboneplayer is a " Low placement player" with upstream emboushure and he push down to ascend and up to descend. He switch register without any change of the angle. He hardly moves and it looks like he consentrates to hold the horn still. The highest Bb is impressive but the Bb next is a bit unstable. I wonder if there is an emboushure change there of some sort even though we can not se that.

/Tom

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-29 10:08 a.m.

First, the trumpet player above:

The trumpet player moves his jaw not only back and forth but he also moves his jaw sideways. He moves to his left when he ascends and to his right and down, to descend.

Yes! His jaw motion is more side-to-side than most, and also a larger motion than typical as well. It's tough for me to say what he might experiment with, but I would expect a player with that much jaw movement going on to have more horn angle changes to accompany it. If you go back and look at the second video I posted of him you can see us experiment a bit with this horn angle change. It's harder to notice more efficiency in the upper register, but the opposite horn angle change for his low register clearly doesn't work.

I suspect that with some fine tuning and coordinating embouchure motion, jaw motion, and horn angle changes that the larger changes this trumpet player makes in these videos would become more minimal. Of course, some of what we're seeing here may be related to his Bell's palsy. For what it's worth, I played a gig with this player a year or three after taking this video (and not run into him between) and he sounded good.

Now on to that very handsome trombonist:

The tromboneplayer is a " Low placement player" with upstream emboushure and he push down to ascend and up to descend.

Low placement, lowers mouthpiece to ascend.

I think he is upstream, IVA.

Yes! I'm a "low placement" embouchure type player. Prior to my first lesson with Doug I had been playing with what I suspect was a "medium high placement" embouchure type. Playing on a downstream embouchure really made me work hard to play and was a serious hinderance for me.

FYI, the IVA embouchure type is one of Reinhardt's labels for the "low placement" type. Essentially a IVA is a low placement player with a receded jaw position and a lowered horn angle. This isn't as common as upstream players who align their teeth and have a horn angle closer to straight out (rewatch the upstream trumpet player from earlier for a good example of this more typical upstream horn angle).

Mechanically speaking, we can probably think of all of Reinhardt's upstream embouchure types as variations of Doug's "low placement" type. It really doesn't change the basic advice you would give upstream players in any meaningful way.

I'm thinking that your profile pic must be horizontally flipped.

Yes, that photo was taken and edited by Doug in a lesson I had with him from 2011. He flipped it so that in looking at my embouchure motion it would look to me in mirror image.

By the way, the video I posted above is from 2013, a couple of years later. Looking through the notes Doug gave me from my 2011 lesson it appears that I still have some things to work on.

Do you ever get into situations on some horns where the bell tubing on your neck obstructs you getting to an ideal angle in the high range?

Yes, sometimes, but I don't really think that my horn angle to the left is extreme enough where it really gets in the way. I have a Benge 170 that has the tubing along that side slightly curved to help with this, but I don't feel that it makes much of a noticeable difference to me.

I see the breaths through the corners of the mouth, but there almost seems to be a split second of hesitation between when the breath is finished and when the note is actually started - would it be advisable to try and work on starting the note more immediately after inhalation?

Yes!

I would tell him to breath through the corners without changing the lips formation that much. Im not sure but think so?

Yes!

That is something that I've been improving on. When I don't pull my right corner so far back to inhale it does a much better job of snapping into place without hesitation. I'll see about posting some more current video to show a better example (assuming that it is, in fact, a better example).

Also, I’m noticing your embouchure motion almost seems to reverse direction once you get to your pedal B flat each time (from right to left, not up to down). Is this something you have worked on consciously? I only ask because I’ve noticed that my pedals also seem to work best that way too.

Yes, but I don't think this is something to imitate. I'll have to go back and look for some other videos from earlier when this embouchure motion reversal was even bigger. It seems to be caused by going too far in my descending direction and then having to backtrack on the pedal in order to get it to the correct spot.

He switch register without any change of the angle. He hardly moves and it looks like he consentrates to hold the horn still.

A while back, I think after I took that video above, Doug advised me to pay closer attention to my embouchure motion and horn angle changes in the low register. I wasn't moving enough and the pitch/tone were on the high side. I think that I've kind of brought my low and middle register further in my descending directions these days. I'll try to post something more recent to demonstrate the change (which may feel like a bigger change to me, but not look like very much of one). How all this relates to my reversal in the pedal range is also something interesting to keep an eye on.

Dave

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-01-30 9:32 a.m.

Looking at my calendar and upcoming commitments this video will probably be the last one I will post for a while. But I think my points have been made:

1. Embouchure issues exist that cannot be fixed by breathing or focusing on musical expression or anything not related to addressing the actual issue. But those things can cover up the problem and players can get better at playing wrong. The longer these embouchure problems continue the harder it can be to make the correction. Sometimes the issue stays hidden until it completely breaks down.

2. It's not all that hard to learn how to diagnose and come up with likely corrections for embouchure issues. Everyone who has been following along with this thread now knows more about brass embouchure technique than pretty much any professional teacher or player.

3. Every brass teacher and player should *want* to learn about this simply because it's an important part of brass technique. Resistance to this idea usually is because someone doesn't understand that it's not that hard or because of inertia. The culture of ignorance is a cycle, the teacher dismisses embouchure analysis does it wrong and his/her students go on to misinform their students and so on. Breaking the cycle means that more brass teachers and players need to learn this stuff.

OK, on to one more embouchure for you to type.

<YOUTUBE id="Jt05h28NyX0">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/Jt05h28NyX0</YOUTUBE>

I think this player's embouchure type is fairly easy to spot, but he has one feature that is unusual for players belonging to this embouchure type that we have really discussed too much here.

Dave

imsevimse · 2019-01-30 11:45 a.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]Looking at my calendar and upcoming commitments this video will probably be the last one I will post for a while. But I think my points have been made:

1. Embouchure issues exist that cannot be fixed by breathing or focusing on musical expression or anything not related to addressing the actual issue. But those things can cover up the problem and players can get better at playing wrong. The longer these embouchure problems continue the harder it can be to make the correction. Sometimes the issue stays hidden until it completely breaks down.[/quote]

Yes, this is absolutely true. My smile emboushure I had when I started could not be much helped with just more air as another example of emboushure problems not talked much of in this thread.

2. It's not all that hard to learn how to diagnose and come up with likely corrections for embouchure issues. Everyone who has been following along with this thread now knows more about brass embouchure technique than pretty much any professional teacher or player.

Yes, it is obvious in many cases and with the plastic mouthpiece as a backup a lot of questions about an emboushure can be revealed.

3. Every brass teacher and player should *want* to learn about this simply because it's an important part of brass technique. Resistance to this idea usually is because someone doesn't understand that it's not that hard or because of inertia. The culture of ignorance is a cycle, the teacher dismisses embouchure analysis does it wrong and his/her students go on to misinform their students and so on. Breaking the cycle means that more brass teachers and players need to learn this stuff.

I think I have no problem to be a student, because this is what it means to consider new knowledge. My experience is its best to be open-minded to anything I do not know because I have learnt best that way. I find no point to dismiss anything just because I don't follow. New knowledge takes time. As a successful student of anything, I collect from any source of the actual subject available, I try and experiment with it and ask questions. Then I use my judgement and sort the information. Some I will use and some I will not use. It is like religion.

I think that if you want to understand Islam then one way to do it would be to read the Koran. To be able to put that in the right context you need to study the bible too, and to be able to put those two in the right context you need to study the other religions as well. As a student you should seek the area that question your beliefs, it is in that area you evolve a lot.

I'm fully aware not all learn the same. There are people who do not like to be "taught" as they learn. They instead seek knowledge only if they think they need it. This makes the situation "teacher-student" not as easy as if you just do your best to absorb. Often these students are very clever.

Different personalities. Neither is better it is just different.

OK, on to one more embouchure for you to

I think this player's embouchure type is fairly easy to spot, but he has one feature that is unusual for players belonging to this embouchure type that we have really discussed too much here.

Dave

I will diagnose that player later :hi:

/Tom

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-01-30 1:00 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]I think this player's embouchure type is fairly easy to spot, but he has one feature that is unusual for players belonging to this embouchure type that we have really discussed too much here.

Dave[/quote]

Another downstream, very high placement, from what I see. He sounds like a very solid player. He has a lower default angle of the mouthpiece, but I don't think this is too unusual. I know a guy here in the Detroit area who I believe has a similar embouchure with a large downward angle. Also a great trumpet player.

Embouchures like this definitely provide reasonable suspicions of why some marching bands' insistences of holding an instrument perfectly horizontal to the ground can really mess someone up.

JesusVicente · by **JesusVicente** » 2019-01-30 2:28 p.m.

Hello, I's say he is downstream Medium High Placement, because of the movements he does with his lips to go to higher register (pushing his lips to the down of the mouthpiece) and going to low register, moving his lips toward the center of the mouthpieces.

BTW, sometimes it is difficulty for me whether we talk about moving the mouthpiece or the lips down or up :???: , maybe because of I don't know english language enough.

Is it true that I see his mouthpiece pipe is a little curved towards up?

imsevimse · 2019-01-30 3:40 p.m.

The trumpet player is a "Very High Placement" player with downstream emboushure. "Push up" to ascend and "Pull down" to descend.

I looked a second time and saw the angle he use is very steep. He has bent the mouthpiece as to make the bell point more straight out. What I saw was he uses quite a lot of force on the upper lip on that higher octave. I think there lyes one of his problems. How much pressure can his lips take? He needs at least to get a fifth higher.

/Tom

Savio · by **Savio** » 2019-01-30 4:02 p.m.

Yes I believe he is downstream. The sliding of mouthpiece and lips are the same as for IIIA, up to ascend. His horn angel is very much down. And isn't the lower lip a little bit to much dominating in the low register. Shouldn't the upper lip dominate inside the mouthpiece in all registers? Does he change to upstream in the low register? Maybe I see it wrong. Im not used to look at embouchures and analyse. In case he change the direction he should maybe choose one.

This week I have started to analyse my small students, its interesting. But I dont feel I know enough to correct anyone yet. Mostly they are OK but there are a couple with pinched thin sound I would look more at. And also one strange one with horn angle up. He have a sound like a bee and I dont know what to tell him. He doesn't have any register at all. I will look closer at him.

Leif

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-01-30 5:06 p.m.

[quote="Savio"]And also one strange one with horn angle up. He have a sound like a bee and I dont know what to tell him. He doesn't have any register at all. I will look closer at him.

Leif[/quote]
The "bees" are very difficult to type. :good:

/Tom

BurckhardtS · by **BurckhardtS** » 2019-01-30 11:09 p.m.

He's downstream, Very High Placement to my eyes, and the movements seem to be correct for him. His inhalations he takes the mouthpiece off his mouth completely and opens his mouthcenter to breathe it looks like, and then kind of rams it all back together to get started again. I used to do this, still do sometimes, and I know how detrimental it can be. Also, his jaw position seems to be more receded than players of this embouchure type usually. Maybe his high range would be stronger if he moved it out slightly more than it is now?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-31 5:41 a.m.

Those "breaths" were edits.

It all looks pretty normal IIIA to me, I'm not sure what special feature Dave is referring to.

JesusVicente · by **JesusVicente** » 2019-01-31 7:58 a.m.

Hello. Oh yes, I see now after watching again all videos, there is very high placement.

Is there a curve in the mouthpiece pipe?

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-01-31 3:33 p.m.

I came across this video while wanting to reply to a different thread.

Three great trumpet players, all three different embouchure types - I'm pretty sure.

<YOUTUBE id="Aea21Btwf-4">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aea21Btwf-4</YOUTUBE>

Enelson · by **Enelson** » 2019-02-01 12:50 p.m.

Red Nichols IIIA, Pete Condoli IIIB, Al Hirt IV?

Redthunder · by **Redthunder** » 2019-02-01 1:31 p.m.

[quote="Enelson"]Red Nichols IIIA, Pete Condoli IIIB, Al Hirt IV?[/quote]

Switch types for Red Nichols and Al Hirt.

Enelson · by **Enelson** » 2019-02-01 2:36 p.m.

OK! My first reaction to Red Nichols was a IV, but I got confused by Hirt’s beard... Thought he was pivoting down to ascend and got fooled by his horn angle.

Can we say that Hirt’s tone is a typical, bright IIIA tone? He had a wonderful sound his whole career.

imsevimse · by **imsevimse** » 2019-02-01 2:58 p.m.

I'm not sure who is who but I think the order is like this.

The first: Red Nicols? is "High placement" player, looks to be downstream but the angle is up most of the time, or perhaps stright out.

The second: Pete Candoli? is"Very high placement" player, downstream, looks to push up to ascend

The third: Al hurt? is a "Very Low placement" player, definitely upstream.

/Tom

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-02-01 3:31 p.m.

On the first one, Red Nichols, I realize you can't quite see his mouthpiece placement, but everything about his "look" and playing tells me he's upstream. Pete Candoli is definitely IIIA, and Al Hirt appears to be IIIB. His angle is high but some IIIB's are like that, almost looking like upstream but it's not. I haven't studied his chops so I could be wrong, need to watch other videos.

Enelson · by **Enelson** » 2019-02-01 4:19 p.m.

I love Al’s typically fat IIIB sound.

PaulTdot · by **PaulTdot** » 2019-02-04 7:50 p.m.

Dave (Wilktone) linked me to this thread and finally got me to sign up to this forum. (I was "Paul T." on the Trombone Forum, the Trumpet Herald, and other places.)

This has been a great thread: thanks to Wilktone for leading a thoughtful discussion and illustrating with examples! (Although, aside from the low horn angle - and the mouthpiece shank being bent to accomodate - I don't see anything strange about that last trumpet player. Looks like a pretty normal very high placement/IIIA to me.)

I agree that an "embouchure mechanics certificate" isn't in any way a practical idea, but that, ideally, anyone teaching brass should be far better informed than the majority of brass teachers are these days.

As to the three trumpet players posted above, I would guess that Red NIchols is a low placement (IV), but, with the other two, I'm not so sure. Pete Candoli could be IIIA or IIIB (I can't quite tell from this clip), and for Al Hirt I would have guessed low placement/IV, but it's hard to see with all that facial hair!

JesusVicente · by **JesusVicente** » 2019-02-12 3:00 p.m.

Hi, I would appreciate it very much if you can share me your opinions about this student of mine. I already have an idea about it, but I'd like to read your thoughts.

- Its sound on middle G usually breaks, even if he is playing a perfect staccato on the rest of notes. On that note he uses both lips (as in first tuba video).

- He tried to keep upstream (I told him to move a bit down the mouthpiece on high register instead of changing to downstream). He was a bit uncomfortable, but I heard a plentier sound.

- He told me if he always play upstream, his flexibility will improve. Nevertheless, he feels more secure so far if he changes to downstream on high register.

<YOUTUBE id="khxVkMm_Luw">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/khxVkMm_Luw</YOUTUBE>

Thanks!

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2019-02-12 3:20 p.m.

Are you *sure* he's playing upstream in the low register? I find it hard to tell from that mouthpiece, although looking at the low Bb that he plays super briefly, even though I can see the lower lip vibrating, it's not clear if it's in front of the upper lip. It would help if he held a long note longer and did true slurs.

My initial impression is that he's moving via Doug's 2nd type: downstream, moves down to ascend.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2019-02-12 7:32 p.m.

I see what he's doing but I don't think it's possible to tell from that what he *should* be doing.

That is a case where I would take a different approach to start. It's a little too involved to discuss in writing.. requires some trial and error testing to come to any sort of valid conclusion

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2019-02-16 10:42 a.m.

I'm glad to see there's still some interest in this topic. I will see about posting some more video later for folks to check out.

FYI, the unusual feature about the last trumpet player I posted a while back was the horn angle, which is lower than most "very high placement" embouchure types.

Dave

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Embouchure mechanics certificates?