Music school or school of hard knocks?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-11 2:44 p.m.

I didn't go to music school. I wanted to, but I let myself be talked out of it. And I wonder if I missed out. Sometimes I think I'm better off not having gone to music school.

I see debates over musical minutiae, like the various position charts going from 7 to 50+ positions; arguments over different theories of intonation; debates over whether the name we put on the note affects its pitch in various abstract systems; and what instrument or key or interpretation was originally contemplated by a composer who has been dead for two centuries and those instruments no longer exist or have evolved to be completely different; etc. There are almost always music school graduates leading or participating eagerly in these debates.

And I think: Is this kind of reductio ad absurdum thing I missed out on by not going to music school? Are these the kind of "missing the forest for the trees" thoughts that I would have if I had a music degree?

I'm not dissing education. I have a BA, an MA, and a JD, and I've gone to school for everything from writing, to botany, to astrophysics, to manufacturing commercial ice cream, so I'm definitely not against skool lernin'.

In fact, I confess that I'm envious of those who went to Julliard, Eastman, Berklee, etc., and I sometimes regret my decision to stay in L.A. and study with Roy Main. (My derailed plan was to go to Eastman to study with Emory Remington.) But then I see graduates arguing over what feels to me like ephemeral nonsense, and I wonder if I really missed out. I feel like I can play anything anyone else can. I feel like I have big ears, good technique, and a good sense of musicality, and I wonder if I would be any better, or different, if I had gone to music school.

So tell me what I missed out on. How would I be a better musician today if I had gone to music school?

I truly don't care how many positions you can find on the trombone. I simply play the notes where they lie, which I do by using my ears and having a lot of flight time under my belt. I don't care about falling, rising, falling-rising, tempered, just, or spiraling camel toe intonation. And I don't care how it sounded on a left-handed Eb baritone strawberry sackbut back before the invention of inventions.

But I do wonder if there are important things that I missed out on in my music education.

So, what did I miss out on by not attending music school? Or, put another way, what do I need to learn that I would have learned in music school but missed out on, that would make me a better musician today?

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-06-11 3:18 p.m.

"But then I see graduates arguing over what feels to me like ephemeral nonsense..."

Most accurate description of some members of this group I've ever seen. :-)

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-06-11 3:26 p.m.

How good is your piano playing? Most of the conservatory graduates I know spent a lot of time working on keyboard skills. In fact, one friend who graduated from NEC studying with the BSO principal trombonist wound up supporting himself for a couple of years as a bar pianist because there were no trombone jobs.

Just think: Most of the greats from the mid 1800s to the mid 1900s didn't have a music education. Tommy Dorsey, Miff Mole, Bill Rank, etc. Many went to music schools as a trade school. Some time in the mid 1900s people like Emory Remington suddenly became the go-to for anybody seriously learning trombone.

Nowadays if you are serious about trombone you have to attend conservatory. You are judged on your bona-fides. Contractors sniff your resume to see if you are worthy.

I think your best route to enjoy playing is to take lessons from a good teacher, get training in another field, and join a good non-professional group. But that's from somebody who chose not to be a full-time professional.

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2024-06-11 3:34 p.m.

"But then I see graduates arguing over what feels to me like ephemeral nonsense..."

That's not what happens at music school.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-06-11 3:35 p.m.

those "ephemeral nonsense" posts are almost 100% things never talked about in either of my degrees. That's just pedants being pedants online.

The music degree has its problems... but most of all, it teaches you to play with others, get lessons regularly (with a reason to practice for them), and make networks with your peers and colleagues. Unless you are incredibly lucky (or grew up decades ago), you're probably not getting that with only lessons.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-06-11 3:47 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]So tell me what I missed out on.[/quote]
Universities and conservatories generally teach both the how and the <I>why</I>.

[quote="tbdana"]How would I be a better musician today if I had gone to music school?[/quote]
Can't say. For some people, it's important to know the why in addition to the how. For others, the why is just a distraction.

harrisonreed · 2024-06-11 4:53 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]those "ephemeral nonsense" posts are almost 100% things never talked about in either of my degrees. That's just pedants being pedants online.

The music degree has its problems... but most of all, it teaches you to play with others, get lessons regularly (with a reason to practice for them), and make networks with your peers and colleagues. Unless you are incredibly lucky (or grew up decades ago), you're probably not getting that with only lessons.[/quote]

OP literally toured with Bill Watrous in the 70's and had more pro gigs than most music grads.

Dana, imagine if you hadn't done the school of hard knocks -- you wouldn't be you. You might have been a secretary somewhere.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-06-11 4:53 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

OP literally toured with Bill Watrous in the 70's and had more pro gigs than most music grads.[/quote]

Exactly my point... that doesn't happen anymore!

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-11 4:56 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="245007" time="1718139189" user_id="3642">

OP literally toured with Bill Watrous in the 70's and had more pro gigs than most music grads.[/quote]

Exactly my point... that doesn't happen anymore!
</QUOTE>

Yeah it makes the basis of comparison way skewed. School back then vs hard knocks, or school now vs hard knocks. Totally different worlds, I imagine.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-11 5:00 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]

...spiraling camel toe intonation[/quote]
Maybe I went to the wrong music school.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-11 5:21 p.m.

It depends on how curious you are, how dedicated you are, who you choose to study with or listen to. There's lots of stuff I wish I had learned either in or out of school.

Most commercially successful musicians did not go to music school, and it shows when they try to write a chart and expect horn players to read it. Ever see things like eighth - dotted half - eighth? I just had to rewrite a 4 horn chart that had things like eighth - quarter - eighth tied together instead of a half note. And much worse stuff.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-06-11 6:27 p.m.

[quote="WilliamLang"]"But then I see graduates arguing over what feels to me like ephemeral nonsense..."

That's not what happens at music school.[/quote]

This!

[quote="Burgerbob"]those "ephemeral nonsense" posts are almost 100% things never talked about in either of my degrees. That's just pedants being pedants online.

The music degree has its problems... but most of all, it teaches you to play with others, get lessons regularly (with a reason to practice for them), and make networks with your peers and colleagues. Unless you are incredibly lucky (or grew up decades ago), you're probably not getting that with only lessons.[/quote]

And this!

Whatever field you actually end up making your living in, music school is a great place to simultaneously learn how to be responsible for taking care of your own business AND work with others.

Plenty of the friends I went to school with make their livings some other way than performing, but I don't think any of them regret their choices, and they all learned essential life skills.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2024-06-11 6:51 p.m.

What did you miss by not going to a "music conservatory" ? I think that you missed a TOTAL immersion in all things musical. In a conservatory atmosphere you absorbed information about what constituted a good string player, a good woodwind player, a good pianist, a good singer ----- etc. etc.---- and how to tell the difference. You not only were immersed in improving on whatever your main instrument was but were strongly encouraged to relate to the other musicians with whom you would eventually create great music outside of the "conservatory". Gregorian chant ? Sure ! A double bass recital ? You bet ! Rarified ? Yes, but an approach to musical growth that has good credentials !

Recently, I had a reunion with a renowned trombonist friend of many years. We talked about navigating the rough path to a performing career and were reminiscing about how we would, during those years, grasp any opportunity to play in ANY group in which we could increase our acquaintance with ANY repertoire or to have an extraordinary musical experience. We both agreed that such involvement and "immersion" was an important factor in our success in reaching our goals.

I was at the Eastman School during the Golden Years of Emory Remington's presence. Although I never studied with him but with his student, Donald Knaub, he was nontheless very influential in my daily musical life. He provided the first trombone I ever played along with the encouragement to do my best with the gift he so graciously offered to me. I did my best.

As fate would have it, my "renowned" trombonist friend actually replaced Emory Remington at ESM and has produced many students who have excelled in our musical world.

I personally have a great admiration for any of our colleagues who have succeeded in the world of music despite any connections with a formal musical education. The innate ability that few are blessed with can be even more formidable than any formal degree. Some of us needed that extra conservatory help ! I was one of them !

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-11 7:10 p.m.

Great post, 2bobone. I would have loved to have had the immersion you write about. That's maybe the thing I envy the most: just the complete immersion in all things music without having to worry about anything else. If I could do that today, I would.

I suspect that my path resulted in a kind of quasi-immersion, as every day was filled with practicing, and I was playing in different groups every day, even if those groups were rehearsal bands at the union hall, or community orchestras, or brass quintets, or gigs, or whatever. Of course, there is network building in all of that (though I was shy and not very good with people at the time, and wish I had understood its importance better). And being on the road is a different kind of immersion. I spent time on the road with the likes of Al Hirt, Buddy Rich, Harry James, Barry Manilow, etc., etc., and that's a whole different kind of education! LOL! :D Oh, the stories I could tell (with the most salacious that I can't post on social media coming from Ray Charles :o ).

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-11 7:13 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="245007" time="1718139189" user_id="3642">

OP literally toured with Bill Watrous in the 70's and had more pro gigs than most music grads.[/quote]

Exactly my point... that doesn't happen anymore!
</QUOTE>

That's a very good point. There isn't the kind of opportunity there was back in my day, when the earth's crust was still cooling. It's a different world now. So I guess this is not an apt comparison.

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2024-06-13 11:03 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]There are almost always music school graduates leading or participating eagerly in these debates.[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you also generally leading or participating in those topics too? This thread itself seems to be one example.

You can already play what you want, and you seem to have a low opinion of formal music education for some reason. It sounds like music school wasn't a good choice for you, so you're not missing out on a thing.

Dave

mcphatty00 · by **mcphatty00** » 2024-06-13 11:44 a.m.

I really wish I had gone to a school with a conservatory setting. I went to a decent music school within a very large college. I had a lot of fun, but there were so many distractions.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-13 12:20 p.m.

Naw, not really. It's pedantic reductio ad absurdum I'm not fond of, and is what is was snarking about. I love school. I've said in this thread I regret not going to music school. I've expressed envy over being immersed in music for years. I've wondered out loud if there are holes in my knowledge/ability due to not going to music school. I posted that I had planned to go to Eastman and that I had wanted to study with Emory Remington.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-06-13 12:40 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]"But then I see graduates arguing over what feels to me like ephemeral nonsense..."

Most accurate description of some members of this group I've ever seen. :-)[/quote]
Click bait ;)

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2024-06-13 1:09 p.m.

What sort of responses did you expect with your initial post?

Does music school attendance make someone pedantic? You seem to imply so. I guess you're just being hyperbolic.

If your intention was discuss "pedantic reductio ad absurdum" why associate that with going to a music school? If your intention was to discuss the pros and cons of a formal music education why the subtle digs at people who want to discuss things differently than you? If you don't like discussing the details of slide positions or equipment then don't bother reading them. If you're going to complain about other people's interests and backgrounds expect some pushback and be OK with it.

I'm happy for you that you found your path and don't have regrets.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-06-13 1:26 p.m.

“I've wondered out loud if there are holes in my knowledge/ability due to not going to music school.”

What do you think?

musicofnote · 2024-06-13 2:04 p.m.

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harrisonreed · 2024-06-13 3:20 p.m.

So many feathers ruffled. LoL.

I, for one, hope this comment was directed at me:

[quote="officermayo"]"But then I see graduates arguing over what feels to me like ephemeral nonsense..."

Most accurate description of some members of this group I've ever seen. :-)[/quote]

Granted my degree is not in music, but, hey. I want to be included in the abuse being meted out here.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-13 3:21 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]What sort of responses did you expect with your initial post?

Does music school attendance make someone pedantic? You seem to imply so. I guess you're just being hyperbolic.

If your intention was discuss "pedantic reductio ad absurdum" why associate that with going to a music school? If your intention was to discuss the pros and cons of a formal music education why the subtle digs at people who want to discuss things differently than you? If you don't like discussing the details of slide positions or equipment then don't bother reading them. If you're going to complain about other people's interests and backgrounds expect some pushback and be OK with it.

I'm happy for you that you found your path and don't have regrets.[/quote]

You're reading way too much into my initial post. Obviously, you have focused on and taken my opinion of pedantic arguments personally. And that's fine. You're absolutely right that I should, "expect some pushback" from those who don't share my opinion. Which you have given me! See? It's all good. :) But likewise, folks insisting on 57 slide positions with charts and arguments should expect some pushback, too. Note I didn't spoil people's party by going on some long rant disagreeing with people in those threads. I said it in my own, and as an aside. As you say, expect pushback, and don't bother reading it if you don't like it. (But there's the enduring conundrum of the universe that says we can't know we're not going to like something until we have already read it.)

Oh, and it wasn't intended as "subtle digs." I think I've been quite clear on how I feel about the 57 slide positions thing, et al. The question I was asking in this thread is whether that's the kind of thing that gets taught as pedagogy in music conservatories. And the answer I heard in this thread was no, it is not. However, they do teach the "why" in addition to the "how." Which is all fantastic!

I'm not here to rain on your parade or to discourage you from engaging in these conversations if that's what you like. It's just not my thing. And I do hold the opinion that such dubious minutiae can be (not is) actively destructive to actually playing the trombone and making music, but I don't get on my soapbox about it in other people's threads. I'm very sorry if I've hurt your feelings. It's certainly not my intention, and I'll try to be more sensitive in the future.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-13 3:24 p.m.

[quote="Bach5G"]“I've wondered out loud if there are holes in my knowledge/ability due to not going to music school.”

What do you think?[/quote]

I dunno. Hence my question. Is this a passive-aggressive way of telling me you think I did suffer holes in knowledge and ability?

However, it was pointed out to me that the situation for folks today is wildly different than the situation I was in decades ago. So maybe the question is moot at this point.

Still, I envy those who were able to just dive into the deep end of music learning and stay immersed in it for four years, and I can't help wondering if by not going that route I am worse off for it.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-13 3:28 p.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]After getting my B.M.E. at University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music (not showing off, that's its name) in 1974, I realised, that there was a lot I didn't learn there. Mostly, I didn't learn how to form a personal and informed interpretation. I learned to play the way my teacher said to play. Once and only once did I dare to ask "But why should I play it this way?" and the answer was "Because Thor Johnson wanted it that way, because Bruno Walther wanted it that way, because Thomas Schippers wanted it that way." Same thing happened with my education methods courses "don't start clarinets players under the age of 10". Why? "See page 27 in the text." That read "The ideal age to start clarinet students is 10 years or older." But why? it wasn't until I was out in the field and inherited an 8 year old clarinet student that I learned the hard way why. But age wasn't the determinate factor.

Then on to the Schola Cantorum Basiliensis der Musik-Akademie der Stadt Basel in Switzerland in 1977, a school dedicated to the research an performance of early music on "period instruments". And that meant reading all the various original texts - with luck translated from original Latin or Italian or whatever into German. Learning about different tuning systems and why they were originally, what influence that had or may have had on the instrumental playing of the day as well as the singing or visa-versa and how to achieve what we felt/believed to be the case at the time (late 70's, early 80's). When you principally play early music on period instruments, some of which built to other tuning systems, it's important to understand when the note is a b-flat, when it's an a-sharp and why that's important to know. At that point things like Baroque scat-"singing" as articulations is a reality, covered in various treatises from the 16th century onwards. Great interview with Clark Terry together with Ed Tarr on the similarities and differences of jazz vs Baroque wind articulations.

In short, what I "missed" in Cincinnati I got in spades in Basel, and the chief engineer of this in my case was Ed Tarr. He taught us how to use the historical sources and he was the first person in my education at the ripe old age of 25, who clued me in to NOT playing from the trumpet part, but rather from the score. So also not to just study the trumpet part but also the entire score to work out what my part had to do with the piece as a whole, after having dug out why this piece had been composed in the first place, where it had been performed for what event, perhaps who performed it and what they got paid then for playing it - all of which had a very important part in, for example, determining how to play certain ornaments and improvised parts - some of which differed from demographic to demographic within very short time periods. I learned my "why" or at least what questions to ask and investigate to arrive at my own answers. I don't ever remember Ed EVER saying to play something differently. Instead he'd ask why I played something in that manner (dynamics, intonation, articulations, etc.). And I'd better have good reasons for everything, quoting sources. And the usual response I'd get was "Well, I understand why you played it that way, although I wouldn't have made the same choices. Now if you need some more information on string bowings in early 17th century Moravia, ask Jaap Schroeder - he's got some very interesting treatises. And for information on double-reed instruments of the same era, talk to Michel Pique." But he never, in the private lessons, EVER told me how to play something or even showed me how he would. He felt, it wasn't his job to turn out weak carbon copies of himself (like some other gurus I could name), but rather to educate professional musicians with minds of their own.

That's what I got out of my formal education.

[My trombone teacher, a couple of decades later, was also "weird". I got no scales or arpeggios from him. ("You're a big boy now. -I was 40 at the time- If you need them you'll practice them, but I don't have to hear them). He took me where I was at the time, helped me where I needed help and had no fixed program to get me up and running. I hadn't even thought of a diploma until I played Serocki and he said, if I played it that way, I'd get a diploma. Two years later ... I got one.

There are all sorts of ways to learn. The important part is having the inquisitive mind and seeking the knowledge one wants.[/quote]

Amazing post. Thanks. :)

Wilktone · by **Wilktone** » 2024-06-13 3:57 p.m.

No feathers ruffled here, for what it's worth. I learned to have a thicker skin in music school. :P

[quote="tbdana"]You're reading way too much into my initial post. Obviously, you have focused on and taken my opinion of pedantic arguments personally.[/quote]

Sometimes I don't know whether you're posting more stream of consciousness style or if you're playing 3 dimensional chess. I can't discuss the judgements you're making without being pedantic. Well played.

[quote="tbdana"]But there's the enduring conundrum of the universe that says we can't know we're not going to like something until we have already read it.[/quote]

Well that's what you missed by not attending a music school - you weren't exposed to things that you wouldn't have otherwise explored. You seem to have gotten along OK without, so you didn't miss out on anything.

[quote="tbdana"]. . . but I don't get on my soapbox about it in other people's threads.[/quote]

Well, that hasn't always been true, but it's totally fine to post disagreements and such. That's the whole point of a discussion forum, no?

Dave

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-13 4:09 p.m.

[quote="Wilktone"]

Sometimes I don't know whether you're posting more stream of consciousness style or if you're playing 3 dimensional chess. I can't discuss the judgements you're making without being pedantic. Well played.[/quote]

LOL! Dave, you give me way too much credit. Everything I post is stream of consciousness drivel from my two functioning brain cells. If only I could do the 3D chess thing, I probably would, but that's way beyond me. Some random thought comes into the empty space in my head and I post it. If you ever wonder my meaning, you're probably safe assuming it's the dumbest possible thing. :)

musicofnote · 2024-06-13 4:36 p.m.

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Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-13 5:31 p.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]After getting my B.M.E. at University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music (not showing off, that's its name) in 1974, I realised, that there was a lot I didn't learn there. Mostly, I didn't learn how to form a personal and informed interpretation. I learned to play the way my teacher said to play.[/quote]

I auditioned for Cincinnati about that time, and got that exact impression just from my audition... and immediately decided it wasn't the place for me. (Must have been the same teacher but I've forotten his name.) They offered me a full 4 year scholarship and I turned it down.

imsevimse · 2024-06-13 6:13 p.m.

I think I understand what tdana is talking about. I have a MFAE from Royal Academy of music in Stockholm and I got that right after collage at 25 so haven't thought about what NOT having that degree would be but since I'm no longer work as a musicteacher nor as a musician but as a system developer and did that change late in life with not much accademic points in the beginning I do recognize the feel of uncertainty because of some hidden facts that might be necessary in a missed degree. I started to work as a programmer with just courses and without a proper academic exam. At one time this left me with the same doubts as tdana describes. I remember beeing a rookie at programming at the age of 36. Had no real experience of the business, no experience from beeing a professional programmer in a team. Did I do a good job? Yes, but I did wonder a lot what a full accademic education as a data engineer would be like. Was it a big difference when I later had that accademic experience? No, it wasn't, and I guess that's the same with a missed music education. You can learn everyhing you need at the job and you do not need a accademic education to do it, but it can give some confidence. If you are smart and talanted enought and know how to study and how to pick up things you do not need any accademic degrees. You just keep searching and learn and stay openminded. Never let anyone tell you something can not be done and never stop to learn the new stuff. This is what's important.

/Tom

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-06-13 6:26 p.m.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]<QUOTE author="musicofnote" post_id="245174" time="1718301878" user_id="15257">
After getting my B.M.E. at University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music (not showing off, that's its name) in 1974, I realised, that there was a lot I didn't learn there. Mostly, I didn't learn how to form a personal and informed interpretation. I learned to play the way my teacher said to play.[/quote]
I auditioned for Cincinnati about that time, and got that exact impression just from my audition... and immediately decided it wasn't the place for me. (Must have been the same teacher but I've forgotten his name.) They offered me a full 4 year scholarship and I turned it down.
</QUOTE>

Perhaps even worse. Cecil (musicofnote) was a trumpet player in 1974. So there were then at least two brass professors at Cincinnati who only taught "play it my way!" :horror:

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-06-13 6:53 p.m.

As musicofnote's first experience illustrates, one can be incurious and defensive with or without a degree.

In general, it's more interesting to decide not to be further interested in a given area after having made a basic effort to understand it. Formal education helpfully coincides with the age when we think we have it all figured out, and in its better forms (not always the case, as discussed above) it forces engagement across a broader range of topics. Some people get there on their own regardless - and for related reasons, really committed mature students are often the most rewarding to teach - but most of us, especially in our early years, benefit in one way or another from a certain helping of "eat your vegetables", or from not entirely choosing our own adventure.

Had you taken a deep dive into spiraling camel toe intonation, maybe you'd have been interested, and maybe you wouldn't, but you'd have learned something. It's not too late.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-13 7:20 p.m.

:lol: :shock:

LeTromboniste · 2024-06-13 7:22 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I see debates over musical minutiae, like the various position charts going from 7 to 50+ positions; arguments over different theories of intonation; debates over whether the name we put on the note affects its pitch in various abstract systems; and what instrument or key or interpretation was originally contemplated by a composer who has been dead for two centuries and those instruments no longer exist or have evolved to be completely different; etc. There are almost always music school graduates leading or participating eagerly in these debates.

And I think: Is this kind of reductio ad absurdum thing I missed out on by not going to music school? Are these the kind of "missing the forest for the trees" thoughts that I would have if I had a music degree?[/quote]

Speaking for myself, a lot of what I write about here is not stuff I learned in "regular" music school, rather stuff I learned from very specialised programmes in a very niche field, and in working and teaching in that field, that most people never have the occasion (or need) to learn. However I would never have gotten into that very specialised field if not for basic music school. As others have pointed out, its role (which it very imperfectly fills) is to give you a basic understanding of the why of things, and immerse you in an environment where you get opportunities to learn about things you didn't even know existed, let alone knew you might be interested in.

I'll add something on the question of the forum contents and the "reductio ad absurdum" you dislike. I'm sure I'm included, if not by you at least by some here (maybe many) in the category of "pedants" who discuss and debate things that are abstract and absurd. I don't mind, and I understand and accept why that would be. I'll just say that what you might feel is absurd, irrelevant to you, or a useless over-complication, might be interesting, useful or enlightening to someone else. We all have different goals, different paths, different reasons. Because the type of playing I do is extremely niche and specialised, I feel I am in a position to offer a very different perspective on certain topics, that most people are rarely if ever exposed to. Doesn't mean I think other perspectives are wrong everytime I provide mine. I just think having more context and more different perspectives out there is never a bad thing. I choose to not gatekeep, and to offer my perspective regularly in the hope it might enlighten someone like I know it would have enlightened me when I was lurking around the Trombone Forum as a teenager. There are several of us here with niche expertises (Doug and David for embouchure mechanics, Andrew on music theory, Matthew and Brad on instrument building, and many many others), and personally those have always been the perspectives that I'm most interested in reading and learning about, and the reason I've continuously kept coming here.

And, so just to take the "intonation theories" and "note names" topic as an example, I understand that for you, in your situation, this might be mumbo jumbo, something that's not worth over-complicating, that in-depth exploration of this quickly becomes abstract and absurd and that you just don't care about it. You just use your ear and play in tune.

Well, that's totally fine. But realise that different people have different realities. For me, they're not pedantic absurdities or things I talk about from a purely intellectual and abstract position. To me they are very much not abstract, in that I encounter these things every single day in my playing and teaching, and they are absolutely essential to my artistic practice. That "abstract" tuning system is not abstract when the organ in my teaching room is tuned that way, when the finger-holed instruments I play together with are tuned that way, when I record a CD with a big organ that's tuned that way and has 14 keys per octave. And yes, that perspective might be totally useless to some, and you might not care about it at all, but please try to also appreciate the fact that it might also be helpful and enlightening to someone else (even if they're not in my small niche field) in their own quest of understanding music.

mcphatty00 · by **mcphatty00** » 2024-06-13 7:48 p.m.

I got accepted at Penn State, Suny-Fredonia and Eastman. I was pushed hard by my dad(PSU). My mother(SUNY) didn't care. My education at PSU was solid. Outstanding trombone lessons from Mark Lusk, which was why I didn't go to Eastman. But there were times some of my ensemble were lacking because the program was evolving in some areas. I will say, I'm not sure if the ONLY MUSIC ALL THE TIME atmosphere would have worked for me.

Master's was much worse. Got accepted at Roosevelt(Friedman) and and my dad talked me into taking a TA to avoid ANY costs. Very regrettable.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-06-13 8:07 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Speaking for myself, a lot of what I write about here is not stuff I learned in "regular" music school, rather stuff I learned from very specialised programmes in a very niche field, and in working and teaching in that field, that most people never have the occasion (or need) to learn. ...

,,,[my] perspective might be totally useless to some, and you might not care about it at all, but please try to also appreciate the fact that it might also be helpful and enlightening to someone else (even if they're not in my small niche field) in their own quest of understanding music.[/quote]

Thanks, Maximilien, for an overall thoughtful post. I love your (nearly) unique perspective! :good:

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-13 8:43 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]Speaking for myself, a lot of what I write about here is not stuff I learned in "regular" music school, rather stuff I learned from very specialised programmes in a very niche field, and in working and teaching in that field, that most people never have the occasion (or need) to learn. However I would never have gotten into that very specialised field if not for basic music school. As others have pointed out, its role (which it very imperfectly fills) is to give you a basic understanding of the why of things, and immerse you in an environment where you get opportunities to learn about things you didn't even know existed, let alone knew you might be interested in.

I'll add something on the question of the forum contents and the "reductio ad absurdum" you dislike...[/quote]

Thank you for a fantastic post. I love when someone comes and teaches me something, opens my eyes to something new.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-13 8:45 p.m.

[quote="mcphatty00"]I got accepted at Penn State...My education at PSU was solid....[/quote]

I actually studied the making of commercial ice cream at Penn State, and used that knowledge to start a gourmet ice cream business, which I eventually sold. This was during a time I wasn't playing music, so I had no music experience there. But I did fly all the way from California to take some courses there. :)

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2024-06-13 9:54 p.m.

Maximilien posted :

"Speaking for myself, a lot of what I write about here is not stuff I learned in "regular" music school, rather stuff I learned from very specialised programmes in a very niche field, and in working and teaching in that field, that most people never have the occasion (or need) to learn. However I would never have gotten into that very specialised field if not for basic music school. As others have pointed out, its role (which it very imperfectly fills) is to give you a basic understanding of the why of things, and immerse you in an environment where you get opportunities to learn about things you didn't even know existed, let alone knew you might be interested in.

I'll add something on the question of the forum contents and the "reductio ad absurdum" you dislike. I'm sure I'm included, if not by you at least by some here (maybe many) in the category of "pedants" who discuss and debate things that are abstract and absurd. I don't mind, and I understand and accept why that would be. I'll just say that what you might feel is absurd, irrelevant to you, or a useless over-complication, might be interesting, useful or enlightening to someone else. We all have different goals, different paths, different reasons. Because the type of playing I do is extremely niche and specialised, I feel I am in a position to offer a very different perspective on certain topics, that most people are rarely if ever exposed to. Doesn't mean I think other perspectives are wrong everytime I provide mine. I just think having more context and more different perspectives out there is never a bad thing. I choose to not gatekeep, and to offer my perspective regularly in the hope it might enlighten someone like I know it would have enlightened me when I was lurking around the Trombone Forum as a teenager. There are several of us here with niche expertises (Doug and David for embouchure mechanics, Andrew on music theory, Matthew and Brad on instrument building, and many many others), and personally those have always been the perspectives that I'm most interested in reading and learning about, and the reason I've continuously kept coming here.

And, so just to take the "intonation theories" and "note names" topic as an example, I understand that for you, in your situation, this might be mumbo jumbo, something that's not worth over-complicating, that in-depth exploration of this quickly becomes abstract and absurd and that you just don't care about it. You just use your ear and play in tune.

Well, that's totally fine. But realise that different people have different realities. For me, they're not pedantic absurdities or things I talk about from a purely intellectual and abstract position. To me they are very much not abstract, in that I encounter these things every single day in my playing and teaching, and they are absolutely essential to my artistic practice. That "abstract" tuning system is not abstract when the organ in my teaching room is tuned that way, when the finger-holed instruments I play together with are tuned that way, when I record a CD with a big organ that's tuned that way and has 14 keys per octave. And yes, that perspective might be totally useless to some, and you might not care about it at all, but please try to also appreciate the fact that it might also be helpful and enlightening to someone else (even if they're not in my small niche field) in their own quest of understanding music."

An excellent post ! Anyone who has listened to one of Maximilien's performances on TC can get a good idea of how effectively he has used this approach in his career. Congratulations ! Great job ! :good:

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-13 11:44 p.m.

Yes, Maximilien FTW. There is definitely something about an "academic" like Max, who not only understands exactly what he's talking about, but executes the things he talks about so beautifully on the horn, to such a high level. I don't really personally see him as an 'academic' because somehow 'artist' or 'musician' seems more appropriate.

mcphatty00 · by **mcphatty00** » 2024-06-14 1:25 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="mcphatty00" post_id="245204" time="1718322482" user_id="15152">
I got accepted at Penn State...My education at PSU was solid....[/quote]

I actually studied the making of commercial ice cream at Penn State, and used that knowledge to start a gourmet ice cream business, which I eventually sold. This was during a time I wasn't playing music, so I had no music experience there. But I did fly all the way from California to take some courses there. :)
</QUOTE>

Best ice cream ever! Ben & Jerry's emerged from the Berkley Creamery. When were you there?

musicofnote · 2024-06-14 1:53 a.m.

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musicofnote · 2024-06-14 2:06 a.m.

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Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-14 11:14 a.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]

The two trombone teachers at Cincy when I was there were Tony Chipurn and Betty Glover.[/quote]
It was Tony Chipburn who gave me a bad impression.

One of my early teachers had studied with Ernest Glover at Cincinnati, and wanted me to check it out.

I wonder if Betty ever spoke about her relationship with Ernest, as her teacher and then husband for a short time.

musicofnote · 2024-06-14 11:31 a.m.

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VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2024-06-14 2:16 p.m.

“We do, doodley do, doodley do, doodely do,

What we must, muddily must, muddily must, muddily must;

Muddily do, muddily do, muddily do, muddily do,

Until we bust, bodily bust, bodily bust, bodily bust.”

― Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Cat’s Cradle

In other words, our choices don't amount to much anyway. We will proceed down the paths of our lives the way we more or less have to until the path ends. Learn here or there. Learn this or that. You'll be fine, or at least you'll be what you were supposed to be in the first place.

The poem could be interpreted to say that it doesn't matter what anyone does. It all ends the same anyway.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-14 2:17 p.m.

<YOUTUBE id="UebSfjmQNvs">~~[media]~~https://youtu.be/UebSfjmQNvs?si=1qI5aHYRSkSYkxJG</YOUTUBE>

VJOFan · by **VJOFan** » 2024-06-16 2:40 p.m.

The free will debate seems like it will be one of those things that eventually is decided to be a mixed bag.

It also often feels like the arguments made depend on the political/moral leanings of the speaker and not necessarily on provable assertions. If free will is 100% real, then that leads to a whole slate of legal and cultural practices with determinism leading to a very different framework for how society is run.

The arguments are not too hard to sum up, but the ramifications of coming down on one side or the other are profound.

musicofnote · 2024-06-16 3:31 p.m.

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AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2024-06-16 3:35 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]. . . back in my day, when the earth's crust was still cooling.[/quote]

Technically, the Earth's crust is still cooling, so there's that. :tongue:

Also technically, there is nothing stopping you from going to music school today. All it takes is time and money. Well, so actually technically, time and money might stop you. But it is possible.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-06-16 6:51 p.m.

Considering your CV, formal music education would have added nothing. it could have had a deleterious and detrimental effect, not the least of which might have been missed opportunities to benefit from fantastic playing experiences. No amount of education is guaranteed to make a person a seeker of truth. Duke Ellington, who dropped out of art school, is said to have peppered people with formal music education with theory questions. He most often used the answers to break the rules.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-06-16 9:00 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]Duke Ellington, who dropped out of art school, is said to have peppered people with formal music education with theory questions. He most often used the answers to break the rules.[/quote]
But then first he learned the rules so that he could then break them -- presumably in some non-random fashion. So this is actually an argument FOR formal study of "the rules".

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-06-16 9:27 p.m.

Formal music education is appropriate for some and not for others. Each case is unique. The choice is up to the individual and their circumstance. When tbdana was first getting started, North Texas State was rare in offering extensive jazz study opportunities, and could have served only to slow her down. It is quite possible that the OP likes life in the fast lane.

musicofnote · 2024-06-17 2:13 a.m.

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OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-06-17 7:39 a.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]<QUOTE author="ghmerrill" post_id="245458" time="1718586026" user_id="2941">

But then first he learned the rules so that he could then break them -- presumably in some non-random fashion. So this is actually an argument FOR formal study of "the rules".[/quote]

As I explained in my music education at the time, with the exception of music theory, we did not learn "rules based". We learned "my way or the highway" based.

So I ended up getting bitten by "learning the rules in order to break them", when those rules were ... changed.
</QUOTE>

My experiences in music school were by and large more positive. A few things got discarded but not many. My technology experiences were more like yours. Basic how to courses in CATIA were helpful. I was often being asked to things the on-site gurus did not know how to do. I was changing the laws to produce results. In a related computer application, the administrator didn’t know what they had, what was actually installed, or was perhaps lying. I had to find out what they had done by trial error. After that always demanded source data or coding.

Generalizations are dangerous and no answer is one size fits all individuals and schools. What the OP missed out on depends on the individual school and personal life experiences.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-06-17 9:31 a.m.

[quote="musicofnote"]As I explained in my music education at the time, with the exception of music theory, we did not learn "rules based". We learned "my way or the highway" based. Which is one reason why, after going to a couple Masterclasses towards the end of my educational career, I never went to another.[/quote]

I'm sorry you had that experience, and I know how it felt. I had a similar experience in my very first class in graduate school that caused me to immediately change direction in terms of the faculty I was working with. It was at once something of a shocking and enlightening experience.

I don't think there are any fully accurate generalizations about "programmatic formal study" that don't rely on certain assumptions about who's dishing out that formal study and how they're doing it. Some of the best people in their fields are lousy teachers, and you can't learn from them (or at least YOU can't learn from them -- OTHER people may be able to). Some of the best teachers won't be able to take you beyond a certain level. And most students aren't very able to see that and make those distinctions.

That doesn't mean, in any particular case, that formal study (or more of it) wouldn't have "made you better" (in one way or another) or might have slowed you down or damaged your progress, or that it wouldn't have been beneficial to you to some degree or other. So when someone asks a question like "How would that have helped ME? Would it have made ME better in certain ways?", the answer is "That depends a lot on YOU -- and on what YOUR goals and capabilities were, and YOUR ability to respond and adapt to a program, or to find a program that fit YOUR goals and needs." And that often becomes more of an exercise in analysis of emotion, personality, goals, and circumstances than anything about what any kind of formal training program has to offer in general. Other people can't answer those questions for you. It's difficult enough to attempt to answer them yourself from a distance of half a century. :lol:

Other than that -- or perhaps with that context -- I can say this: I've been to master classes led by people like Pat Sheridan, Oystein Baadsvik, and James Galway. I'm pretty sure that I'd be very happy to have them as instructors, and that I'd benefit greatly from that. On the other hand, none of them are classic ("professorial"?, "career academic"?) music faculty members, although each teaches in (or has taught in, or runs) various formal training programs.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-06-17 11:46 a.m.

In the beginning, I got out of the Army and moved home back to L.A. My plan was to go to Eastman and study with Emery Remington, only to discover that Remington had passed. Unsure of the path forward, I started looking around for other schools. In the meantime I started studying privately with Roy Main, who had a reputation for producing lots of successful professional players.

Roy asked me early on what my plans were, and when I told him of my school search and asked for his advice, his response was, "Go to music school if you want, but why? This is the best school in the world right here. You can study with me, and you've got the best musicians in the world that you can play with, learn from, and learn the business from, all while being in the business."

That made a lot of sense to me. There were great trombonists of all kinds here, from Ralph Sauer to Dick Nash to Frank Rosolino to Jimmy Pankow, and everything they knew, everything they could do, was right there for the taking. And the lure of actually working in the business while learning was quite compelling.

So I made the decision to stay and work.

I then met Dick Grove. Dick was a composer for whom I had done some TV thing I can't recall now, and I through him I met Lalo Schrifrin and lucked into subbing one day on a Dirty Harry picture Lalo wrote the score for. I became intrigued by film composing and signed up to go to Dick's music school to become a film writer. But after a couple semesters I got offered a gig in New Orleans playing with Al Hirt, and I quit school and moved to Louisiana. And that was the end of my formal music education. It turned out that at that age I was more enticed by the notion of performing nightly with a celebrity in a smoky jazz club in the French Quarter than by generating twelve-tone rows for writing atonal movie music that I might never get paid to write. So I made a choice and that was that.

I guess it does no good to second guess it at this point. But since I started playing again I've been examining my musical choices and playing the "what if" game. What if I had gone to Eastman after all? What if I had stayed in Dick Groves' composing school? What if I hadn't quit playing music for 30 years just when I was beginning to figure it out? I missed out on a lot of great possibilities, and seeing that my contemporaries of the time have gone on to be some of most successful trombonists in the world has made me question my judgment back then. (I'm low key proud and envious of those guys, by the way, though they will never know it nor would they care.)

I had to go on a very long journey to discover that, like the dumbass that I am, 30 years ago I quit on the very best thing I had, just when I was beginning to get the hang of it. What an idiot I was. I'm at an age now where people naturally look backward more than forward.

So I wonder.

All the wisdom in this thread has pretty much answered the question for me, and the answer is this: In the end, it doesn't matter. What's done is done, and the only thing that exists is now. And now I'm having the best time of my whole life playing again.

In a couple hours I get to leave my house and drive to a studio to record some tunes and take the measure of where I am after a year of returning to the infinite tube. None of the past matters. All that matters now is that in a few hours I will be doing the thing I love absolutely most in life. Maybe I had to make the choices I made in order to feel the gratitude and unburdened joy I feel playing today.

So, thanks for all your wisdom. Every word of it makes a difference.

musicofnote · 2024-06-17 11:59 a.m.

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harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-17 12:26 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]"Go to music school if you want, but why? This is the best school in the world right here. You can study with me, and you've got the best musicians in the world that you can play with, learn from, and learn the business from, all while being in the business."

That made a lot of sense to me. There were great trombonists of all kinds here, from Ralph Sauer to Dick Nash to Frank Rosolino to Jimmy Pankow, and everything they knew, everything they could do, was right there for the taking. And the lure of actually working in the business while learning was quite compelling.

So I made the decision to stay and work.
[/quote]

Dana, you went to the correct music school, based on your stories. I might be ignorant, actually, I'm definitely ignorant, but I was under the impression that the vast majority of Remington's students went on to orchestra jobs. Yes, he also had some famous jazz students, but would Remington really have given you the schooling in jazz and studio music that you got "on the job"? Or was he an Autumn Leaves teachin' orchestra nerd? I honestly don't know, so someone please correct me if he was actually producing a ton of great jazzers.

Your decision to leave that work may be something that you might get more hung up on. But don't forget that time only goes forward. You might have been on every movie score if you had stayed in it, or you might have crashed on tour a year after you actually moved on to other work. It seems like you did purty good, to me.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-06-17 1:04 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]But after a couple semesters I got offered a gig in New Orleans playing with Al Hirt, and I quit school and moved to Louisiana. And that was the end of my formal music education.[/quote]

Sometimes hindsight is 20-20 but not always. I met Al Hermann up at Telluride one year. He got his chops playing in NOLA with Carl Fontana. Al went on to teach physics with his PhD at Boulder, CO but continued to play trombone as well. Playing with AL Hirt, et al, are one in a lifetime opportunities. Carpe Deum is as much about capitalizing on opportunities as it is not wasting the day, or tilting at windmills. Missing out on some book learning pales compared to the life experiences you have had. Forget it.

ithinknot · by **ithinknot** » 2024-06-17 1:36 p.m.

[quote="OneTon"]Carpe Deum[/quote]

I believe the major denominations discourage that

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-06-17 1:45 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="245509" time="1718643895" user_id="13549">
Carpe Deum[/quote]

I believe the major denominations discourage that
</QUOTE>

Is this like CULTivation?

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-17 1:48 p.m.

[quote="ithinknot"]<QUOTE author="OneTon" post_id="245509" time="1718643895" user_id="13549">
Carpe Deum[/quote]

I believe the major denominations discourage that
</QUOTE>

Good one.

OneTon · by **OneTon** » 2024-06-17 2:23 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="245513" time="1718645801" user_id="9763">

I believe the major denominations discourage that[/quote]

Good one.
</QUOTE>

It is better to depend on a Higher Power than AI.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-06-17 3:12 p.m.

We all could have gone a different route.

I had a sort of similar start as Dana.

At various times I considered going back to school - Berklee, Eastman, North Texas. I also considered moving to New York, Las Vegas, LA, Nashville. Any of them could have been a good scene. But I had a pretty good thing going, freelancing in DC with fantastic players both classical and jazz, 10 years of serious study with Reinhardt (Philadelphia is an easy drive), some bus & truck touring shows, and then the Airmen of Note gig, and back to freelancing, running my own band, and now a lot of gigs as MD and arranger for a Sinatra singer. And making mouthpieces when I can.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-06-17 7:01 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="ithinknot" post_id="245513" time="1718645801" user_id="9763">

I believe the major denominations discourage that[/quote]

Good one.
</QUOTE>

Interesting ...

Google Translate renders "Carpe Deum" as "Seize the day" while translating the individual word "Deum" as "God". Having in the past had some intimate knowledge of NLP translation software, I have trouble imagining how they do that. My only guess is that for some reason (????) they "auto-correct" "Deum" to "diem" (possibly based on phrase occurrence frequency in document corpora?) and provide the "corrected" (expected?) translation. But it's nutty.

According to Google Translate, both "Carpe deum" and "Carpe diem" mean "Seize the day." If you toss it "Carpe diem. Carpe deum." you get back "Seize the day. Seize the day." I regard it as a bug. I can't get it to do something similar in German (using several test cases). And it doesn't get other phrasal translations involving the two terms incorrect, as far as I can see. Very puzzling. :roll:

Now back to your originally scheduled programming.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-06-17 8:26 p.m.

<ATTACHMENT filename="tumblr_9edac51c97b9de0e104610835b29d4a0_95e72933_540.gif" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~tumblr_9edac51c97b9de0e104610835b29d4a0_95e72933_540.gif</ATTACHMENT>

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2024-06-21 1:49 a.m.

So the premise of this thread is one or the other - music school or learning on the gig. I think that for most successful players, it's some combination of both. Even in music school, a lot of the learning is from the other players around you. Sometimes, what makes the advice of the teacher "click" with a student is that they hear examples of players that have mastered a skill sitting next to them. Sometimes, it's players on different instruments as well. This is why I've never been a fan of the advice to skip school and just study privately with a great teacher. Also, school can be a great networking opportunity, and the connections you make there can be helpful years later.

The other thing that school can give you is exposure to other genres, and chances to test out things like doubles (bass, alto, euphonium, tuba) without falling on your face on a paying gig and damaging your reputation. You can play those instruments with good players in small groups and start getting a feel for them. Likewise with genres, you can stretch out of your comfort zone, and have examples near you of other players who usually play in that style. A great way to become more comfortable in the style, and add to your employable skills. I have heard of/known players that entered school convinced that their path was jazz, and switched their emphasis to classical (or vice versa).

When I went to school, the emphasis was clearly mostly on orchestral playing. That worked out for me, and it aligned with what I wanted to do. Still, my time in jazz band, and in chamber music helped make me a better player, and opened up more opportunities to work outside the orchestra. Also, in an orchestra nowadays, you play pops concerts and chamber music regularly, so you use those other skills even in your "day job".

People can absolutely learn exclusively "on the job", but that's a lot tougher now in a tighter freelance market than what was happening when I was in NYC in the late 70's/early 80's. Also, that method strikes me as confining that player to a very limited choice of musical styles. That's great if you quickly become a top player in that style, but it might not pay the bills very well while you're getting there.

Jim Scott

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-06-21 3:58 a.m.

[quote="CalgaryTbone"]So the premise of this thread is one or the other - music school or learning on the gig. I think that for most successful players, it's some combination of both. Even in music school, a lot of the learning is from the other players around you. Sometimes, what makes the advice of the teacher "click" with a student is that they hear examples of players that have mastered a skill sitting next to them. Sometimes, it's players on different instruments as well. This is why I've never been a fan of the advice to skip school and just study privately with a great teacher. Also, school can be a great networking opportunity, and the connections you make there can be helpful years later.

The other thing that school can give you is exposure to other genres, and chances to test out things like doubles (bass, alto, euphonium, tuba) without falling on your face on a paying gig and damaging your reputation. You can play those instruments with good players in small groups and start getting a feel for them. Likewise with genres, you can stretch out of your comfort zone, and have examples near you of other players who usually play in that style. A great way to become more comfortable in the style, and add to your employable skills. I have heard of/known players that entered school convinced that their path was jazz, and switched their emphasis to classical (or vice versa).

When I went to school, the emphasis was clearly mostly on orchestral playing. That worked out for me, and it aligned with what I wanted to do. Still, my time in jazz band, and in chamber music helped make me a better player, and opened up more opportunities to work outside the orchestra. Also, in an orchestra nowadays, you play pops concerts and chamber music regularly, so you use those other skills even in your "day job".

People can absolutely learn exclusively "on the job", but that's a lot tougher now in a tighter freelance market than what was happening when I was in NYC in the late 70's/early 80's. Also, that method strikes me as confining that player to a very limited choice of musical styles. That's great if you quickly become a top player in that style, but it might not pay the bills very well while you're getting there.

Jim Scott[/quote]

All of this, exactly!

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2024-06-21 9:00 a.m.

[quote="VJOFan"]“We do, doodley do, doodley do, doodely do,

What we must, muddily must, muddily must, muddily must;

Muddily do, muddily do, muddily do, muddily do,

Until we bust, bodily bust, bodily bust, bodily bust.”

― Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Cat’s Cradle

In other words, our choices don't amount to much anyway. We will proceed down the paths of our lives the way we more or less have to until the path ends. Learn here or there. Learn this or that. You'll be fine, or at least you'll be what you were supposed to be in the first place.

The poem could be interpreted to say that it doesn't matter what anyone does. It all ends the same anyway.[/quote]

Kurt practicing new triple tongue syllables.

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