Greg Black Bass Trombone Throats & Backbores
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I have been playing a 1 7/16G since they first came out a couple years ago. These have a .295" throat and the #2 backbore.
I have recently been trying the 1 3/8G. The moderate increase in cup diameter from the 1 7/16 has been a significant improvement for me, and not just in the low register, unexpectedly. However, I am struggling a bit with adjusting to the blowing characteristics of the stock 1 3/8G which has a .302 throat and the #0 backbore. It feels <U>way</U> tighter than the 1 7/16G. That caught me off guard looking at the specs on paper.
In the secondhand market, I happened upon a 1 3/8G with a .295 throat and the #1 backbore. This version feels <U>drastically</U> more open than either of the two aforementioned pieces. There's little to no resistance in comparison and for me it's very unforgiving in terms of focus and stability. Its like when you get to 2nd partial E, whatever was there for you to blow against is magically gone, and that sensation increases as you descend to low B. However, some of it comes back when you get to pedal Bb and stays as you descend. Weird.
I have committed to practicing and performing only on this modified 1 3/8G for about 6 weeks now to see if I can acclimate to it, and I have to some degree, but it still doesn't feel comfortable as I need it to. I say that in a way which feels like it might never, at least with the amount of practice time which I can afford to devote to achieving and maintaining absolute baseline playing functions before practicing anything else. I have several things coming up where I may switch back to the 1 7/16 because I can't afford any degree of this uncertainty or instability on those particular jobs.
This has me a bit confused on what to try next. I would not have expected the difference in the 7/16 and the 3/8, having the same throat diameter but different backbores to feel so very different. Does the shape/size of the bottom of the cups account for this difference? Or, is the #2 backbore actually "tighter" than the #1?
So, essentially what I am looking for is a 1 3/8G which is slightly more open than the stock version, or one that provides more focus/resistance than the .295/#1 so that I don't have to do it all myself and assume the risks which come with that on days when things aren't happening 100% perfectly.
Perhaps the next step would be informed by my understanding of the difference between the #1 and #2 backbores, but some variations I am considering to achieve what I describe immediately above are:
1 3/8G .307/#0 (like on the next size up, the 1 5/16)
1 3/8G .295/#2 (provided that the #2 is not inherently more open than the #1)
1 3/8G .281/#1 or #2
Anyone with experience able to provide any insight or guidance? I know there are a couple guys here who have worked with Greg during the development stages of some of the current offerings. Thanks in advance for your time if you'd care to offer your thoughts here.
I am 100% planning to reach out to the Greg Black shop about this, but I thought I'd see if I can arm myself with more info from others who perhaps have more experience here than I do.
I have recently been trying the 1 3/8G. The moderate increase in cup diameter from the 1 7/16 has been a significant improvement for me, and not just in the low register, unexpectedly. However, I am struggling a bit with adjusting to the blowing characteristics of the stock 1 3/8G which has a .302 throat and the #0 backbore. It feels <U>way</U> tighter than the 1 7/16G. That caught me off guard looking at the specs on paper.
In the secondhand market, I happened upon a 1 3/8G with a .295 throat and the #1 backbore. This version feels <U>drastically</U> more open than either of the two aforementioned pieces. There's little to no resistance in comparison and for me it's very unforgiving in terms of focus and stability. Its like when you get to 2nd partial E, whatever was there for you to blow against is magically gone, and that sensation increases as you descend to low B. However, some of it comes back when you get to pedal Bb and stays as you descend. Weird.
I have committed to practicing and performing only on this modified 1 3/8G for about 6 weeks now to see if I can acclimate to it, and I have to some degree, but it still doesn't feel comfortable as I need it to. I say that in a way which feels like it might never, at least with the amount of practice time which I can afford to devote to achieving and maintaining absolute baseline playing functions before practicing anything else. I have several things coming up where I may switch back to the 1 7/16 because I can't afford any degree of this uncertainty or instability on those particular jobs.
This has me a bit confused on what to try next. I would not have expected the difference in the 7/16 and the 3/8, having the same throat diameter but different backbores to feel so very different. Does the shape/size of the bottom of the cups account for this difference? Or, is the #2 backbore actually "tighter" than the #1?
So, essentially what I am looking for is a 1 3/8G which is slightly more open than the stock version, or one that provides more focus/resistance than the .295/#1 so that I don't have to do it all myself and assume the risks which come with that on days when things aren't happening 100% perfectly.
Perhaps the next step would be informed by my understanding of the difference between the #1 and #2 backbores, but some variations I am considering to achieve what I describe immediately above are:
1 3/8G .307/#0 (like on the next size up, the 1 5/16)
1 3/8G .295/#2 (provided that the #2 is not inherently more open than the #1)
1 3/8G .281/#1 or #2
Anyone with experience able to provide any insight or guidance? I know there are a couple guys here who have worked with Greg during the development stages of some of the current offerings. Thanks in advance for your time if you'd care to offer your thoughts here.
I am 100% planning to reach out to the Greg Black shop about this, but I thought I'd see if I can arm myself with more info from others who perhaps have more experience here than I do.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Left field suggestion: Markey 85 or 87. Very even blow in all registers, super easy to play, nice color to the sound.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
That's probably right, I've only played the 85 on the small end
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The Hecht Audition model is extremely deep and has a .312" throat. It's huge.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I think, because it is so deep, the ID is going to feel wider because of the alpha angle. You can measure the width of a valley between two steep hills vs a valley between two cliffs at the same spot below the highest point and find they are the same width, but if you hang your legs off the cliff, that valley will seem wider than if you sit on the side of the steep hill.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Aye yi yi. It's a theory man. If the mouthpiece is deeper, generally it will stay wider as it goes down into the cup. Thus feeling wider. I have played the Hecht. It's humongous.
I was trying to give ideas as to why it feels so big, but nevermind.
I was trying to give ideas as to why it feels so big, but nevermind.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
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- RustBeltBass
- Posts: 382
- Joined: Jul 17, 2018
[quote="bassclef"]:|[/quote]
Hope that cleared things up for you, OP !!! :pant:
Hope that cleared things up for you, OP !!! :pant:
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="RustBeltBass"]<QUOTE author="bassclef" post_id="245396" time="1718555820" user_id="114">:|[/quote]
Hope that cleared things up for you, OP !!! :pant:
</QUOTE>
Haha! I got excited when I returned to find 10+ responses...just forgot where I was for a second I guess
Hope that cleared things up for you, OP !!! :pant:
</QUOTE>
Haha! I got excited when I returned to find 10+ responses...just forgot where I was for a second I guess
- Rusty
- Posts: 470
- Joined: Jun 01, 2018
[quote="bassclef"]<QUOTE author="RustBeltBass" post_id="245448" time="1718578055" user_id="3536">
Hope that cleared things up for you, OP !!! :pant:[/quote]
Haha! I got excited when I returned to find 10+ responses...just forgot where I was for a second I guess
</QUOTE>
@bassclef, Any updates on where you ended up with this? Interested in those 2 models so was keen to hear how you got on given they blew so differently for you.
Hope that cleared things up for you, OP !!! :pant:[/quote]
Haha! I got excited when I returned to find 10+ responses...just forgot where I was for a second I guess
</QUOTE>
@bassclef, Any updates on where you ended up with this? Interested in those 2 models so was keen to hear how you got on given they blew so differently for you.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I missed this thread the first time around, and I'm also curious where you ended up.
My most basic recommendation would be to call Greg's shop and talk with them about it. My sense is that their recommendation will be to order a 1-3/8G with a .295 throat and #2 backbore, and if you find that to be tight, send it back to them to open up the throat a bit.
Backbore taper and its relationship to throat size is HUGELY important. I've tried Greg's 1G variations in various combinations, and the differences are enormous. For me, in that size with the rest of Greg's design, the .312 throat #2 backbore was the goldilocks combination. I also tried a .312 #0 that felt pretty good but lacked core and feedback and a .312 #1 that I liked OK but felt a little stiff and didn't quite sound as good as the #2...for me and my instruments at the time. I can imagine how the #1 backbore in some mouthpieces would make it blow too open - it feels kind of like the air moves very fast.
Overall I've found Doug Elliott's designs to work better for me - which use smaller throats in combination with backbores designed for them. His XB M cup is similar in volume to Greg's 1G, and the M throat is .295, but the backbore design (I like the M8) makes it feel efficient but plenty open enough for me. I get a denser core to the sound, easier high register, and more consistent low register than with my Greg Blacks.
Out of curiosity I picked up a Greg Black 1GLW .295 #0 on the used market. It's interesting - closer to the Doug Elliotts, but ultimately brighter and less even across registers.
My most basic recommendation would be to call Greg's shop and talk with them about it. My sense is that their recommendation will be to order a 1-3/8G with a .295 throat and #2 backbore, and if you find that to be tight, send it back to them to open up the throat a bit.
Backbore taper and its relationship to throat size is HUGELY important. I've tried Greg's 1G variations in various combinations, and the differences are enormous. For me, in that size with the rest of Greg's design, the .312 throat #2 backbore was the goldilocks combination. I also tried a .312 #0 that felt pretty good but lacked core and feedback and a .312 #1 that I liked OK but felt a little stiff and didn't quite sound as good as the #2...for me and my instruments at the time. I can imagine how the #1 backbore in some mouthpieces would make it blow too open - it feels kind of like the air moves very fast.
Overall I've found Doug Elliott's designs to work better for me - which use smaller throats in combination with backbores designed for them. His XB M cup is similar in volume to Greg's 1G, and the M throat is .295, but the backbore design (I like the M8) makes it feel efficient but plenty open enough for me. I get a denser core to the sound, easier high register, and more consistent low register than with my Greg Blacks.
Out of curiosity I picked up a Greg Black 1GLW .295 #0 on the used market. It's interesting - closer to the Doug Elliotts, but ultimately brighter and less even across registers.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Just looking at the GB web page. I don't see any mention of alternate throat/back bore other than .312/#2. Am I just suffering from OldFartItis? Or is the info not on the page ?
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="hornbuilder"]Just looking at the GB web page. I don't see any mention of alternate throat/back bore other than .312/#2. Am I just suffering from OldFartItis? Or is the info not on the page ?[/quote]
All of Greg's design info is not on the website, but he'll tell you about it if you ask him.
What I remember is below. Apologies if I'm remembering incorrectly.
The #2 backbore is the standard for his large tenor pieces with "G" cups and the smaller bass mouthpieces. I thought that was up to the 1-3/8G, but maybe not.
The #3 backbore is more open and is the standard for the bass mouthpieces 1-1/4G and larger.
The #1 backbore is the standard in the New York series (formerly Alessi) tenor mouthpieces.
Basically, the #1 is the straightest taper, the #2 bowls out some after the venturi and the #3 bowls out even more. That might be oversimplifying.
Then Greg came up with the 0 backbore, which Greg told me was based on Giardinelli backbores. As I said, I tried one with the .312 throat but found the sound very diffuse. Giardinelli mouthpieces tended to have smaller throats, so it makes sense that it would work better in those kinds of combinations.
My own experience is that I always found the standard large bass pieces uncomfortably big, like I was swimming in them and didn't know where the pitch center was. But I always liked the sound, and I was looking for something with a little smaller rim diameter than the Laskey 93D I'd been playing. So when I saw a 1G that was described as having a slightly smaller throat and more focused backbore for sale used, I tried it and liked it. Then I met Greg at a trombone show and talked with him about it. He made me a couple more and I tried a couple of variations. I played those for a couple of years and then moved on to Doug's XB line, which suits me a little bit better. But that .312 #2 variation from Greg has turned out to be a popular option for him, and I'm glad.
All of Greg's design info is not on the website, but he'll tell you about it if you ask him.
What I remember is below. Apologies if I'm remembering incorrectly.
The #2 backbore is the standard for his large tenor pieces with "G" cups and the smaller bass mouthpieces. I thought that was up to the 1-3/8G, but maybe not.
The #3 backbore is more open and is the standard for the bass mouthpieces 1-1/4G and larger.
The #1 backbore is the standard in the New York series (formerly Alessi) tenor mouthpieces.
Basically, the #1 is the straightest taper, the #2 bowls out some after the venturi and the #3 bowls out even more. That might be oversimplifying.
Then Greg came up with the 0 backbore, which Greg told me was based on Giardinelli backbores. As I said, I tried one with the .312 throat but found the sound very diffuse. Giardinelli mouthpieces tended to have smaller throats, so it makes sense that it would work better in those kinds of combinations.
My own experience is that I always found the standard large bass pieces uncomfortably big, like I was swimming in them and didn't know where the pitch center was. But I always liked the sound, and I was looking for something with a little smaller rim diameter than the Laskey 93D I'd been playing. So when I saw a 1G that was described as having a slightly smaller throat and more focused backbore for sale used, I tried it and liked it. Then I met Greg at a trombone show and talked with him about it. He made me a couple more and I tried a couple of variations. I played those for a couple of years and then moved on to Doug's XB line, which suits me a little bit better. But that .312 #2 variation from Greg has turned out to be a popular option for him, and I'm glad.
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Darn it. "I don't need to open that can or worms again!! I DO NOT need to open that can of worms, AGAIN!"
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[/size][quote="hornbuilder"]Darn it. "I don't need to open that can or worms again!! I DO NOT need to open that can of worms, AGAIN!"[/quote]
And a little voice whispered,[size=85]“Matthew! Matthew! Look, over here! This one has a .310 throat and a backbore that…”
And a little voice whispered,
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
<EMOJI seq="1f642" tseq="1f642">🙂</EMOJI>
- trombonedemon
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Aug 06, 2018
I'm not sure if this helps, I called Greg and explained to him I was looking for something large, and sold me on 0 series with a .323 backbore. That put me in "goldy locks zone". Can't see my self playing on any other sizes. Wait minute that 30 mm contra mp he had was the bomb. Buuuuuuuut it played uncontrollably flat. I wondered if cutting the shank help with that.