Olds Ambassador opinions

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-19 3:05 p.m.

I'm still in a wannabee trombonists crowd and the only thing I'm missing is a... horn.

I can get something off eBay since in our location there is almost nothing to choose from except for new Yamaha and our local prices even for a basic model 354 are just plain mad. Used Yamahas pop up extremely rarely.

I'm thinking Olds Ambassador but...

I looked for reviews and found a thread on our fellow trumpeter's forum that I frequent as an adult amateur trumpet player. The thread's overall conclusion is 'Olds Ambassador trombone is NO good'. :-(

Here:

<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=36527">https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36527</LINK_TEXT>

I perfectly understand that it's a heavy student horn. I don't expect it to be in the King Liberty league.

However, judging by my experience with Olds and Reynolds student level trumpets I'd say that I'll always prefer a used Olds or Reynolds to any similarly prices new Chinese junk. I don't know why many people don't understand that.

So what about the subject anyway?

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2019-01-19 3:12 p.m.

Even assuming only Olds, you can do better. Olds Special, Recording, Studio will be a little bit more expensive, but better players.

You can also find lots of Yamaha 354s on ebay fairly cheap. Lots of options for cheap horns on eBay. You might not kiss a prince your first date, if you know what I mean.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-01-19 3:33 p.m.

Olds valve instruments were much better than the slide instruments. Also, the last Olds Ambassador came from Fullerton in the early 1970s; almost 50 years ago.

I played an Ambassador with F for a number of years. It's OK, but not stellar. You could probably find a newer instrument that will work better. Perhaps a King 606 (or its antecedent, the 605), a Conn Director (several models). Yamaha 354's are really good (and not Chinese -- they are Japanese). You could also look at a Besson Oxford, Holton Collegiate, Martin indiana, Weril, or Jupiter (which is actually made in Taiwan).

That said, some Chinese instruments are a reasonable starting point. Something from Wessex Tubas, JP-Rath (JP stands for John Packer, an English dealer), and Mack Brass are usually much better than the average Ebay special.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-19 4:08 p.m.

I was thinking Holton 602 trombone as well.

Do you suggest that Holton 602 would be a better choice compared to Olds Ambassador for some reasons?

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-01-19 4:22 p.m.

One knock on the Olds is that it doesn't have a "contemporary sound". Plus the receiver takes a shank that's not QUITE a standard shank of either small or large size today. I think I come close to a contemporary sound with my Olds standard (a couple of pay grades above the Ambassador, but I'm not sure that makes any difference in this context) with my Kelly mouthpiece with its sanded down shank (to fit the receiver correctly). But if you really want to play the horn in a number of contexts, the other suggestions here would be better for you, I think.

Also, I do feel my Olds is slide heavy compared to more "modern" horns. You can get used to it, but it's different.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-19 4:54 p.m.

As far as I know new crop of Yamaha YSL 354 comes from China, not Japan. They say older Japanese crop were better but I understand that Yamaha doesn't make crap.

I'm not after any particular kind of sound: I need a horn for amateur Jazz playing. Play a head, improvise.

I know with vintage US-made horns of basically any level you can't go totally wrong. That's why I'm not considering Chinese junk with pretentious brand names.

Oslide · by **Oslide** » 2019-01-19 6:25 p.m.

I have two YSL 354 and can confirm these are surprisingly good for the money (haven't played a King 606).

Make sure the slide is okay, since in the very early years of their production Yamaha seems to have had some problems with chrome plating so that today some inner slides from that period show pitting of the surface which makes them +- unusable.

Good luck and have fun!

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-19 7:02 p.m.

Thanks for the tips on YSL 354.

Meanwhile I'm still collecting opinions on the Olds Ambassador. Now you know my specific sound preferences which are actually none. No requirements except for a solid construction (which it is as far as I know) and basic decent sound. It shouldn't be stuffy or muffled. Some blowing resistance is preferred.

Please talk me out if you can.

dxhall · by **dxhall** » 2019-01-19 7:53 p.m.

I was curious and purchased an Ambassador on eBay for $29. Just buy one and try it.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-19 8:27 p.m.

Well, I currently see a few at $100 and they are complete junk.

Please note that when you view eBay offers as a US buyer you see much more because many US sellers who specify 'US only' for shipping restrict their listings for local viewers only.

Besides, shipping to my location from the US starts at around $120...

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2019-01-19 9:39 p.m.

I've had two Ambassadors, both were stuffy. On the old forum people did talk well of them, so probably there are good and bad ones. They are heavy and ruggedly built, that's for sure.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-20 5:44 a.m.

Thanks Tim. Stuffy - is not what I'm looking for.

Can anyone tell me anything about Jupiter 332 model?

I mean I know it's a basic student horn but how would it compare for instance to Yamaha 354?

Are Jupiter student line durable enough?

How do they sound? I mean again I don't expect miracles but I need to know the tendencies.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-01-20 10:41 a.m.

You can still get LA Ambassadors in good/excellent condition for < $100 if wait and look. I had a chance a few years ago to get one within a 2-hr drive of where I live, advertised on Craigslist for $75. Single owner in his 80s whom I talked to and who provided marvelous detailed pictures of what appeared to be a horn in virtually as-new condition. Said he hadn't used it in decades. Before I decided to pull the trigger on it, he sold it to a friend of a friend.

I paid $125 on Ebay for my '47 Olds standard and then had some minor slide alignment done on it and a shallow dent removed from the bell. After I cleaned (and cleaned, and cleaned) the slide, it's close to a 10. So you can find these things, and a number of people seem to like them for lead jazz sort of stuff. It does seem to be true that with the original Olds #3 mouthpiece, you can get a sound that will cut through steel. The horn likes that mouthpiece.

On the infrequent occasions when I use the horn (about as often as I take my 1924 Buescher tuba out in public), I use my Kelly 12C mouthpiece with the sanded down shank and get a less "focused" sound and easier low range. It's a neat old horn (especially the '47 Standard variant), and it's my "I've got a tenor if I should for some odd reason actually need one" horn.

Conn100HGuy · by **Conn100HGuy** » 2019-01-20 12:02 p.m.

I have a nice 1950 Olds Recording for sale (see my posts for details) for $575 plus shipping. I still have (and play occasionally) the Ambassador my parents bought for me in 1955 or so. The Recording is by far the better of the two,

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-20 3:11 p.m.

Thank you for all your responses.

Of course there is always a horn one step up and when we get quite a few steps up from the ground where most of us live in terms of financial stability we understand it's better to come down :-)

I mean I perfectly understand that I get what I pay for but my funds are extremely limited.

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2019-01-20 5:06 p.m.

I'm gonna buck the crowd here and put in a good word for the Olds Ambassador. I still have my son's tucked away,( his beginner horn) it's from the late 50's, early Fullerton, with the round handgrip. It's a decent player, IMO, well balanced and the slide is very good. I prefer the sound and response over the Yamaha 354's and the 606's, although they are all fine student instruments. The slide, in weight, feels lighter than the Yami but a bit heavier than the 606 if I remember right. The plating has held up well (the student Kings do not) but the lacquer, no.

However, the slide is narrow so if you have even a "normal" sized adult neck, the mouthpiece will not fit comfortably. And the mouthpiece shank is a little smaller, so an Olds M.P. will fit great but any other small-shank M.P. will fit but stick out farther than normal.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-20 6:46 p.m.

[quote="Mamaposaune"]I'm gonna buck the crowd here and put in a good word for the Olds Ambassador. ...

...

However, the slide is narrow so if you have even a "normal" sized adult neck, the mouthpiece will not fit comfortably. ...[/quote]

Wait, wait, wait! What does it all really mean? Please stay with me!

Since I've never tried a trombone yet I can't understand a thing about this "narrow slide".

My neck? - I must confess. I have too long a neck. So long that I can't even find a standard violin chin rest!

If you take a look, most violin players are short-necked. This doesn't mean it's a must for violin playing but rather something that occurs naturally in the violin world for some reason.

So - should I be alerted about my potential problems taking up the trombone at all?

How do long necked trombone players manage to hold their trombones?

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-20 7:49 p.m.

Please - I need a quick answer. ASAP!

What are the problems concerned with playing trombone with a long neck?

(Not a trombone with a long neck - whatever that might mean but a trombone player with long neck having any kind of associated problems playing the trombone.)

norbie2018 · by **norbie2018** » 2019-01-20 8:04 p.m.

None that I know of.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-01-20 8:09 p.m.

[quote="TBoneHalfNote"]Please - I need a quick answer. ASAP!

What are the problems concerned with playing trombone with a long neck?

(Not a trombone with a long neck - whatever that might mean but a trombone player with long neck having any kind of associated problems playing the trombone.)[/quote]A thick neck can be a problem, but a long neck? Shouldn't be an issue.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-20 8:15 p.m.

I can imagine what Mamaposaune ment above when saying that a MP will not fit comfortably. That assumes that a trombone always rests on a shoulder - right?

I went to Google pics and noticed that some longer neck tbone players don't rest their instruments on the shoulder.

Is there a variety of holds in respect to resting/not resting a tbone on one's shoulder?

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-01-20 8:22 p.m.

[quote="TBondeHalfNote"]I can imagine what Mamaposaune ment above when saying that a MP will not fit comfortably. That assumes that a trombone always rests on a shoulder - right?

I went to Google pics and noticed that some longer neck tbone players don't rest their instruments on the shoulder.

Is there a variety of holds in respect to resting/not resting a tbone on one's shoulder?[/quote]
The neckpipe does not have to rest on the player's shoulder.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-01-20 8:27 p.m.

[quote="TBoneHalfNote"]I can imagine what Mamaposaune ment above when saying that a MP will not fit comfortably. That assumes that a trombone always rests on a shoulder - right?

I went to Google pics and noticed that some longer neck tbone players don't rest their instruments on the shoulder.

Is there a variety of holds in respect to resting/not resting a tbone on one's shoulder?[/quote]

There are two basic trombone mouthpiece sizes and variations on each.

Most student trombones take a small (regular) shank. However, Olds made trombones with a slightly smaller receiver and matching mouthpieces. A standard shank mouthpiece fits in an Olds receiver, but sticks out a little further.

The other size (used for symphonic tenor and bass trombones) is the large shank. Again, Olds made a slightly smaller large shank receiver for the Opera and some of the basses. Olds mouthpieces are a little smaller in shank to accommodate this. There are also the Conn shank (different taper, sometimes called a Remington) and some King large bores take a slightly larger mouthpiece shank.

Long neck? I NEVER rest my trombone on my shoulder. Neither should you. Just look at my avatar. FWIW, I have a standoff type pad for my viola because the standard instrument, even with an air pillow under it, is still too narrow to clamp between my chin and shoulder.

TBoneHalfNote · 2019-01-20 8:44 p.m.

BG - should a smaller MP receiver + small MP shank on Olds Ambassador present any kind of a problem for an adult like me?

Also, when using a small shank MP (but not Olds) with Olds Ambassador will it present any tuning problems because of a longer shank compared to an Olds one?

Thanks for a tip on the 'standoff' for your viola - not sure what it means though. I'll Google it...

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2019-01-20 8:47 p.m.

Forget the Ambassador. If you want to take up the trombone, get yourself a good modern student-model trombone. There are many great choices. Ambassador is not one of them anymore. Neither are Jupiters.

Look for these: Yamaha 352/354, King 606, Bach ??, Getzen 351/451

Yes, there are others but they are much harder to find. Find one of the above with a good slide and start playing. Play everyday. Have fun. Repeat.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-20 8:53 p.m.

Do they still produce King 606 in the US? Or are you talking of a used one?

BillO · by **BillO** » 2019-01-20 9:20 p.m.

[quote="TBoneHalfNote"]Can anyone tell me anything about Jupiter 332 model?

I mean I know it's a basic student horn but how would it compare for instance to Yamaha 354?

Are Jupiter student line durable enough?

How do they sound? I mean again I don't expect miracles but I need to know the tendencies.[/quote]While I've not played the 332, I have played the 432. The 432 is as nice, or nicer than the Yamaha 354 (which I have owned). It is just as well made as the Yamaha and sounds much the same. Neither too warm or too brassy. It's free blowing with a fairly easy high register. Like I say, it compares favorably with the Yamaha. I know the 432 is a bit more money than the 332, but not by much (maybe $100 when new). I'm pretty sure the only difference between them is that the 432 has a nickle-silver slide and the 332 has a brass slide.

BTW, if you get a Yamaha, try to get one with the nickle-silver slide. It's considerably nicer than the brass slide (less weight, smoother, more durable). I'm guessing your in Canada. Most of the Yamaha 354's sold in Canada had the nickel-silver slide.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-01-20 9:46 p.m.

[quote="TBoneHalfNote"]BG - should a smaller MP receiver + small MP shank on Olds Ambassador present any kind of a problem for an adult like me?

Also, when using a small shank MP (but not Olds) with Olds Ambassador will it present any tuning problems because of a longer shank compared to an Olds one?

Thanks for a tip on the 'standoff' for your viola - not sure what it means though. I'll Google it...[/quote]

I can't imagine it would create a unique problem. A standard shank mouthpiece in an Ambassador may wind up just a shade flat, but the tuning slide may have enough travel to compensate.

Potential problem is something called "reach" (distance from the mouthpiece to the slide tenon). If you look at my avatar, I'm playing a Martin Committee trombone with a rather small reach, and I'm a pretty big guy. Means I need to assemble it with an obtuse angle between the plane of the slide and the plane of the bell.

As for my viola, I have forgotten what they call it, but it clamps to the bottom of the instrument and has a foam pad offset about an inch (25 mm) from the bottom of the device.

greenbean · by **greenbean** » 2019-01-20 10:00 p.m.

[quote="TBoneHalfNote"]Do they still produce King 606 in the US? Or are you talking of a used one?[/quote]

Definitely used. These horns are all over the place. No need to buy new.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-21 5:10 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]A thick neck can be a problem, but a long neck? Shouldn't be an issue.[/quote]

[quote="BGuttman"]...

Potential problem is something called "reach" (distance from the mouthpiece to the slide tenon).

...[/quote]

I've just reread the earlier posts and - oh my! - thanks to John I realized what Mama meant about the narrow slide and potential MP fit problem!

BG - thanks for your example with Martin. I now see what "reach" means.

Should it be that bad with Ambassador?

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-21 5:39 a.m.

I also see they call it "neck clearance". I didn't realize that.

Naturally the slide should be narrower for smaller children hands and it makes perfect sense to me now.

Can anyone tell me please what's the difference in width between a "normal" average slide and a narrow Ambassador slide? Is it an inch? Half an inch? Quarter an inch?

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-21 11:29 a.m.

Thanks to all for your replies - since I cannot buy off the US eBay due my PayPal account verification problems this topic is no longer of current interest to me.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-21 1:31 p.m.

Wow! PayPal was quick and nice. I'm back on track!

So please - tell me more about the Ambassador 'narrow slide' - how narrow actually is it compared to other student slides?

I'll reiterate my above question for comparison:

Can anyone tell me please what's the difference in width between a "normal" average slide and a narrow Ambassador slide? Is it an inch? Half an inch? Quarter an inch?

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2019-01-21 8:19 p.m.

I think it is only slightly narrower, it is the same width as the rest of the line-up of Olds small-shank trombones, and may even be interchangeable with the more up-scale model bells. Some other older pro horns, such as the Conn 4H, also had narrow slides, and players back in the day made do with them. Some other student models, such as the Yamaha 354, have a slight curve in the neckpipe so if the Ambassador doesn't feel comfortable you can always sell and find something else. You'll probably be fine, keep us posted!

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-01-21 9:30 p.m.

For what it's worth, I never owned an Ambassador straight trombone. Mine was with F and had a much wider reach than most student horns.

I wouldn't worry that the reach looks like the Getzen Slide Trumpet, which has a tight U-bend at the end of the slide and needs to be moved via a small nub soldered on. You probably can learn to deal with whatever the reach is. Unless you are thick-necked you shouldn't have a problem.

Arrowhead · by **Arrowhead** » 2019-01-22 12:57 a.m.

I had an Olds Ambassador (Fullerton). The slide was surprising light. The horn did play a little stuffy though. I ended up donating it. Not a bad horn though. If you don't want to caught up in the potential "mouthpiece shank problem" that goes along with an Olds, go for an Olds made in the 70's. You can use a standard mouthpiece for the Special and the Recording F. att.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-22 3:56 a.m.

Thanks a lot for the clarification!

Arrowhead · by **Arrowhead** » 2019-01-22 10:48 a.m.

If you see one that interests you online, post a link so that folks can give you feedback about the horn

JohntheTheologian · 2019-01-22 5:06 p.m.

I picked up an L A Olds Ambassdor at a local pawn shop for $73. It had an almost brand new Protec case with it. I figured that the case was about worth the purchase. It has a couple of dents in the bell section that I plan to have removed some day, but otherwise clean, with good lacquer.

I've always been a Conn guy, although I own a Blessing B88 and a Yamaha BSL322R along with my Conn 48H. However, after a few of hours of cleaning the slide-- it had caked on slide cream from years ago that I had to steel wool off-- it actually turned out pretty good. The slide has a bit of scratchiness, but moves freely and it doesn't play badly.

I told my kids that I'll give it to the first grand kid that wants to play trombone. I have one that's nearing trombone playing age, 2 that are younger and 1 on the way. I probably will get a lighter plastic case than the heavy Protec and a replacement for the Olds 3 mp that is thin on plating, but otherwise I think it will make a good beginners trombone, especially since my kids won't have to spend a dime for it. :)

Leanit · by **Leanit** » 2019-01-22 5:30 p.m.

I've always thought the Olds Ambassador a sturdy, usable horn that sounds as good as you do in most settings. My experience with the Fullerton models has been better than the seemingly-heavier Los Angeles vintage. If you can find one with a good slide, give it a shot.

My current "beater" horn is an Olds Studio, which seems to be pretty much an Ambassador with a slightly bigger bell. $26 from eBay. Job done.

dxhall · by **dxhall** » 2019-01-22 9:18 p.m.

My $29 ebay Ambassador is really a pretty decent horn. If other posters are correct when they claim that the metal in Ambassadors is thicker than the metal in professional horns, I would infer that the harsher and less complex sound produced by the Ambassadors is the result of the thicker metal absorbing more overtones than the metal of the thinner horns. I read once that the reason Olds put “tone rings” on the Supers is that the metal of the bell was too thin to be engraved. Don’t know if that’s true. For those who don’t have a Super, the “Olds” engraving is on the tone ring

I’ll have to get out the ball micrometer this weekend and measure the metal thicknesses of the Ambassador and my other horns. Maybe that’s the explanation.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-23 5:08 a.m.

From many replies I gather that Ambassador is not at least worse than the majority of student horns.

On Brassreview someone mentioned that "It's a good Jazz horn either".

I don't know what people mean when making such claims but I must tell you that sounds convincing :-)

Perhaps Jazz is less demanding in terms of clarity of the tone so that any horn could work in that setting. I also suspect that the reviewer simply meant the small bore size of Ambassador.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2019-01-23 8:33 a.m.

[quote="dxhall"]My $29 ebay Ambassador is really a pretty decent horn. If other posters are correct when they claim that the metal in Ambassadors is thicker than the metal in professional horns, I would infer that the harsher and less complex sound produced by the Ambassadors is the result of the thicker metal absorbing more overtones than the metal of the thinner horns.[/quote]

I don't think so. I think the sound difference we think we hear is caused by listening to beginners play them. Or, from not being used to a .485 bore.

Thicker metal (if it really is) will always have less effect on the wind column sound, not more.

Arrowhead · by **Arrowhead** » 2019-01-23 9:06 p.m.

[quote="TBoneHalfNote"]

Perhaps Jazz is less demanding in terms of clarity of the tone so that any horn could work in that setting. I also suspect that the reviewer simply meant the small bore size of Ambassador.[/quote]

I think that's a common misconception. Why would Jazz be less demanding in terms of clarity of tone?

dxhall · by **dxhall** » 2019-01-23 9:28 p.m.

Not sure about that. I bought the Ambassador because I was curious about its sound compared to the sound of better horns. For $29, why not? Anyway, I have several times played a piece on the Ambassador, and then immediately played the same piece with the same mouthpiece on the ‘41 Conn 24h or the ‘45 King 2B. The difference is what I described - the Ambassador lacks the complex overtones of the other horns, and produces the “cracking” sort of tone much more easily than the other horns.

There’s kind of a vibe to the Ambassador, though. The Ambassador was one of (perhaps the) horn of choice for high school students in the US for several generations. Makes me think of the 1950s.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-01-23 11:37 p.m.

The Olds small-bore trombones from the 1940s to the 1970s (in order of increasing price: Ambassador, Special, Studio, Super, Recording - all with 0.485"/0.500" dual bore, but slightly varying materials and components) were all made carefully in the same factories (Los Angeles and then Fullerton) and have proved to be sturdy and robust - even the "student" model Ambassador. They do not all sound the same, but share a strong family heritage. You can still find excellent examples of all these models on the used market at (sometimes very) reasonable prices. They may not be the "latest thing," but they play very well for what they are (small-bore trombones!).

The standard mouthpiece for all was the Olds 3, which works well, but is too small for some players. Standard small-shank mouthpieces from other manufacturers can also be used, but do not seat into the "undersized" Olds receivers quite as far, so some players will slightly "shave down" the mouthpiece shank to fit the Olds receiver. Others just accept them as they are, and (perhaps after pushing in the tuning slide slightly) enjoy making music à la Olds!

My take: Ambassadors are fine - and often a great bargain - but the Studios and Recordings are better if you can find one, for only a little more $. Try an Olds - you may like it!

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-01-24 9:16 a.m.

I was looking at Olds as I've been looking into getting a small bore f attachment bone on a student budget for jazz and pep band due to confined spaces. That's actually been harder than I expected.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-01-24 10:09 a.m.

In terms of non-Olds mouthpieces, you can't go too big on these horns (Ambassador or the higher end models). The Olds #3 really is what the horn "wants", but it very likely will give you a "brighter" sound than what you are looking for if you want to blend with more contemporary horns (like in a quartet).

"Too big" definitely includes something the size of the 6 1/2 Bach. It doesn't come close to working reasonably on my '47 Olds Standard. My Kelly 12C is a Bach clone and is noticeably different in terms of the sound (and low range, particularly) than the Olds #3. I haven't tried a 7C, but suspect that this may be a bit "big" for my horn as well.

I kind of stumbled across the Standard. There don't seem to be quite as many that show up compared to the other variants, and the distinctive look from the "serpentine" braces was done only for the '46 and '47 Standards. I originally thought that "Standard" was a reference to a kind of "medium quality" horn (like "regular" or "average"), but old advertisements make it clear that it was offered by Olds as the "industry standard" of pro-level horns. In the mid-late 40s, at least, it was the #2 pro-level horn in the line-up (behind, as I recall, the Recording) and in today's US $ would be equivalent to an over $2,000 instrument.

You'll also hear a lot of people say that the Olds plays "bigger than it is". I think there's definitely something to this and is likely attributable at least in part to the dual bore slide. There are quite a few examples on YouTube of old Olds horns being played (including by Paul Newman!), and you may get an idea of the typical sound of these horns from those examples.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2019-01-24 12:52 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]The Olds small-bore trombones from the 1940s to the 1970s (in order of increasing price: Ambassador, Special, Studio, Super, Recording - all with 0.485"/0.500" dual bore[/quote]
All except the Recording. Those are .495"/.510"; just a little larger all the way through.

[quote="ghmerrill"]"Too big" definitely includes something the size of the 6 1/2 Bach. It doesn't come close to working reasonably on my '47 Olds Standard. My Kelly 12C is a Bach clone and is noticeably different in terms of the sound (and low range, particularly) than the Olds #3. I haven't tried a 7C, but suspect that this may be a bit "big" for my horn as well.[/quote]
I find a 7C seems to work pretty well, but YMMV.

I kind of stumbled across the Standard. There don't seem to be quite as many that show up compared to the other variants, and the distinctive look from the "serpentine" braces was done only for the '46 and '47 Standards. I originally thought that "Standard" was a reference to a kind of "medium quality" horn (like "regular" or "average"), but old advertisements make it clear that it was offered by Olds as the "industry standard" of pro-level horns. In the mid-late 40s, at least, it was the #2 pro-level horn in the line-up (behind, as I recall, the Recording) and in today's US $ would be equivalent to an over $2,000 instrument.

Olds used the "Standard" name on various configurations from the 1920's up until the early 1950's. In the post-WWII era, it slotted in right below the Super in their lineup - still a pro horn, but without all the expensive nickel silver and bronze (red brass) - though the Standard still had nickel silver braces and cork barrels. Literature from '47 shows the Super, the Standard, and the Special - the Special was what you'd call a "basic pro" horn - very little nickel silver. Within a couple years, the Ambassador had been added at the low end of the line and the Studio had replaced the Standard. The Recording isn't part of that family - it's a bigger horn (.495"/.510" vs. .485"/.500").

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2019-01-24 1:21 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="76249" time="1548304657" user_id="158">
The Olds small-bore trombones from the 1940s to the 1970s (in order of increasing price: Ambassador, Special, Studio, Super, Recording - all with 0.485"/0.500" dual bore[/quote]
All except the Recording. Those are .495"/.510"; just a little larger all the way through.

...

The Recording isn't part of that family - it's a bigger horn (.495"/.510" vs. .485"/.500").
</QUOTE>

Thanks, JohnL, for the correction. I presume that even the Recording was supplied with the Olds 3 mouthpiece.

As far as F-attachments, the Olds Ambassador "bass trombone" (as it was called in the 1950's) had a larger dual-bore slide (0.510"/0.525" ?), and was supplied with a slightly larger Olds 1 mouthpiece, which has a larger throat than the Olds 3. Same shank, though, so the Olds 1 works well on the non-F-attachment Olds trombones for those who want a bit larger mouthpiece that fits the receiver.

Arrowhead · by **Arrowhead** » 2019-01-25 11:08 p.m.

[quote="RConrad"]I was looking at Olds as I've been looking into getting a small bore f attachment bone on a student budget for jazz and pep band due to confined spaces. That's actually been harder than I expected.[/quote]

Olds Recording w/F att. (Fullerton 70's era). You should be able to get one of these for under $500, and they don't have the issue with taking only certain kinds of mouthpieces.

RConrad · by **RConrad** » 2019-01-25 11:39 p.m.

[quote="Arrowhead"]Olds Recording w/F att. (Fullerton 70's era). You should be able to get one of these for under $500, and they don't have the issue with taking only certain kinds of mouthpieces.[/quote]

I'll have to keep an eye out for one. Most of the ones I've been are a bit outside of my range. Thinking a ysl-356r might be just fine if I can't find something else.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-30 4:35 p.m.

On, no - it's do sad!

You know guys - you are so lucky out there in the US. I'm looking at what's offered for shipping to the 'US only' on eBay and I see wonderful student horns like this one for instance (Martin Indiana 1959 in near perfect condition):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273673605841

An there are tons of such offers that are limited to the US buyers only. As I noticed the majority of US eBay sellers no longer want to ship internationally and for us, buyers outside of the US we occasionally get offers that are triple the average price and most of the time it's some sort of junk.

So lucky you are and so poor we are :-(

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2019-01-30 4:55 p.m.

The reason for the reticence of American sellers to ship overseas is the Customs and Duties that are imposed. Sometimes they can double or triple the sell price. Sometimes goods can be purloined (stolen, but legally) by the Customs agents and the shipment never gets to the buyer.

If you are in EU, buy from somebody who is also in EU. That will probably be your best bet.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2019-01-30 5:06 p.m.

I wonder if it's really more a matter of unfamiliarity with the process and a reluctance to get involved with learning what forms are necessary and how to make them out. The few times I've sent stuff out of the US, it was trouble free. Of course, that may depend on where you're sending it to. But I've sent mouthpieces to Europe, Brazil, and Australia. Certainly not any worse than shipping certain items within the US (since sometimes both USPS and commercial shippers seem quite confused about what regulations explicitly permit).

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-31 4:47 a.m.

10 years ago 80% of the US eBay sellers were happy to ship internationally. At that time I bought couple dozens of vintage saxophones off the US eBay. The only problem was to package them correctly and most sellers did that at my request. That period lasted for 5 years or so since then.

Then the Global Shipping program was introduced to eBay and that was the buyer's nightmare. Most of the US sellers still kept shipping overseas though.

A year ago the GSP still worked but at the time being I see absolutely no listings with the GSP enabled. Have they terminated the program? On the one hand there is nothing wrong with that because inserting a third party in the process was nothing good at all. Many buyers complained about recuced packaging at the GSP centers and you can imagine what that means in respect to musical instruments, especially to those that come in the old style carrying cases. Their shipping charges were also much higher when compared to USPS.

On the other hand once the program closed (?) or is no longer used by the US sellers the number of sellers willing to ship internationally reduced dramatically.

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2019-01-31 7:45 a.m.

I’ve iimported two horns from USA to UK. Great horns, great sellers. The PITA was the import duty and VAT which significantly increased costs.

TBoneHalfNote · by **TBoneHalfNote** » 2019-01-31 4:34 p.m.

[quote="TBoneHalfNote"]...on eBay and I see wonderful student horns like this one for instance (Martin Indiana 1959 in near perfect condition):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273673605841

...

So lucky you are and so poor we are :-([/quote]

Heh-heh, I though someone will get that diamond for peanuts and later on will boast on trombone forums about grabbing a real bargain Martin Indiana in near new condition. Let's see how the auction ends. Sometimes there is no way to tell in advance the amount of final bid. Maybe $300? Not sure.

Anyway, according to my eBay experience there is rarely a chance to get a clean closet horn (of any type) for little $$$. I was under an impression many a time that I'm getting a bargain with my last few seconds shooting bid only to find out later that someone bid significantly higher than me (and a few others) to win it.

That way I learned that if I needed to get something badly I had to be generous. Still didin't work all the time because someone wanted the item more than me.

drbucher · 2022-04-05 8:14 a.m.

I had one from fifth grade through high school and into college. I played two difficult solos on it, getting negative feedback from the judges on the sound, especially at high volume. I recently heard a video by a young guy trying to sell one: awful indescribably bad sound. I am horrified that I probably sounded like that, though I don't blame my dad, who played clarinet and saw no reason to buy a better one.

Don't put yourself or any kid through that. It's ok for a beginner needing the basics, but commit to a better one when basic proficiency has been attained, or teach him/her how to play it with some restraint on a proper mouthpiece, probably a Bach 11c or 12c.

BillO · by **BillO** » 2022-04-05 10:51 a.m.

[quote="drbucher"]I had one from fifth grade through high school and into college. Don't put yourself or any kid through that. Get a trombone of higher quality with a good sound.[/quote]

I too started on an Olds Ambassador. There are better trombones but I don't remember it being truly horrible. You could do a lot worse.

Cotboneman · by **Cotboneman** » 2022-04-05 8:13 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Olds valve instruments were much better than the slide instruments. Also, the last Olds Ambassador came from Fullerton in the early 1970s; almost 50 years ago.

I played an Ambassador with F for a number of years. It's OK, but not stellar. You could probably find a newer instrument that will work better. Perhaps a King 606 (or its antecedent, the 605), a Conn Director (several models). Yamaha 354's are really good (and not Chinese -- they are Japanese). You could also look at a Besson Oxford, Holton Collegiate, Martin indiana, Weril, or Jupiter (which is actually made in Taiwan).

That said, some Chinese instruments are a reasonable starting point. Something from Wessex Tubas, JP-Rath (JP stands for John Packer, an English dealer), and Mack Brass are usually much better than the average Ebay special.[/quote]

I had a JP/Rath large bore for a few years and I would say they are excellent, with a very good to excellent build quality. I sold it when I acquired a great Conn Gen II 88HYO earlier this year, following my policy that if a new horn comes into my home, something already there has to go!

When I started playing in school back in the early 1960's all our Chicago Public Schools had were Olds Ambassadors. Their valve instruments were terrific. The trombone I felt was heavy and clunky, but of course it might have just been a poorly maintained public school instrument. A trumpet player friend who I play with in a brass quintet still uses as his principal cornet the Olds Ambassador. He gets a great sound on it. I actually started my brass journey on one too.

rzeilinger · by **rzeilinger** » 2022-12-30 1:20 p.m.

Also... the Olds Ambassador weight?

I own 1 of each Olds tenor trombones

Here's an interesting piece of Data.

I weighed the Olds Ambassador and an Olds super (pro level)

The Ambassador has a lighter outer slide and whole slide than the Olds Super by about an entire ounce.

IN FACT the Entire Olds Super is heavier than the Olds Ambassador.

If you do some research you will find that Olds states, they manufactured all their trombones with the exact same standards and tolerances across all their trombones. The differences are subtle regarding the use of various metals on the horns and braces used. There also may be subtle differences in the flare of the bell section.

Ambassadors needed to be more affordable for mass production and student budgets, so it has more brass parts and fewer nickle or copper (like the special bell) parts, it has a more economical brace design...BUT it is the same Slide material and Dual Bore design as the special, studio and super.

I don't know of many if any student models with a Dual Bore Slide. This is a feature normally designed for more advanced trombones, but Olds made them for their Ambassadors (f trigger and straight tenor)

Get a good one with a great slide and you have a wonderful trombone to enjoy.

Leanit · by **Leanit** » 2022-12-30 9:25 p.m.

The Olds Ambassador slides are astonishingly sturdy.

JohnD · by **JohnD** » 2022-12-31 9:00 a.m.

Got two oft these, made around 1960. They play like a sort of a heavy 2b which I always preferred. One slide was replated. Nice horns anyway.

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2022-12-31 10:37 a.m.

[quote="rzeilinger"]Also... the Olds Ambassador weight?

I own 1 of each Olds tenor trombones

Here's an interesting piece of Data.

I weighed the Olds Ambassador and an Olds super (pro level)

Agree on all of this. The Ambassador is a lightweight, well-balanced horn. IMO, they play as well as any student-level trombone, and better than many. If the slide has not been abused, it can be great!

The downsides: * There are many out there for sale, but it is difficult to find one that is in good shape and has been well maintained.

* The odd-sized mouthpiece receiver, a normal mp will fit but sticks out more than normal.

* The slide is narrow, putting the gooseneck right up against your cheek or neck.

* The handslide brace is not adjustable, so if the alignment is off it is more difficult to repair.

The Ambassador has a lighter outer slide and whole slide than the Olds Super by about an entire ounce.

IN FACT the Entire Olds Super is heavier than the Olds Ambassador.

If you do some research you will find that Olds states, they manufactured all their trombones with the exact same standards and tolerances across all their trombones. The differences are subtle regarding the use of various metals on the horns and braces used. There also may be subtle differences in the flare of the bell section.

Ambassadors needed to be more affordable for mass production and student budgets, so it has more brass parts and fewer nickle or copper (like the special bell) parts, it has a more economical brace design...BUT it is the same Slide material and Dual Bore design as the special, studio and super.

I don't know of many if any student models with a Dual Bore Slide. This is a feature normally designed for more advanced trombones, but Olds made them for their Ambassadors (f trigger and straight tenor)

Get a good one with a great slide and you have a wonderful trombone to enjoy.[/quote]

wayne88ny · by **wayne88ny** » 2023-01-01 4:32 p.m.

Joe Skrzynski (2nd trombone in the Detroit Symphony for many years) thought that the Olds Ambassador was the best student trombone (this was back in the 1970's) Here are some others to consider

Getzen 300 or 400 series - the more recent ones - the ones with the round counter weight - Steve Ferguson reviewed them and said they played as well as the Getzen professional trombones

Kanstul 750

Holton Collegiate - The one I tried played like a professional trombone. Maybe I just got lucky

Conn Director - from the Elkhart era, serial number "N..." or earlier. I know these are 50+ years old, but Conn made a lot of them so there are still some out there in very good condition.

Conn Connquest - Elkhart Era intermediate trombone - supposed to be excellent.

Check out reverb for used trombones - here are some outstanding buys

Getzen 400 series $299 + $50 shipping

Holton Special $350 - free shipping

Martin Committee $325 + $75 shipping

The Special and the Committee are highly desirable professional trombones

Blessing BTB-880 $300 + $100 shipping

I know I'm going to get some flack about the bore being too large for a beginner. I respectfully disagree. It's too heavy for a young kid, the OP is an adult.

blap73 · by **blap73** » 2023-01-01 11:40 p.m.

I've got an Ambassador w/F bell section. One thing, I found pushing dents out of the bell was substantially more difficult than a King 606. Eventually I took a micrometer to the bell and confirmed the metal thickness is heavier on the Olds than on the King 606. Further, by my (not accurate) measurements, the bell is thicker than the "heavy gauge" version of the Edwards Tenor bell. Was this because it was a student horn and aimed to be rugged? Or is that just an Olds characteristic...

JohnD · by **JohnD** » 2023-01-13 8:24 a.m.

My Olds Ambassdor trombone ('64 model) plays like a charme. Fine intonation, speaks fast. Superb high range. Got a fat sound on it, beats the 3B easily in this regard. I love the heavy bell.

Slide was replated, now like new - or better?

Nice...

rzeilinger · by **rzeilinger** » 2023-01-14 5:26 a.m.

[quote="blap73"]I've got an Ambassador w/F bell section. One thing, I found pushing dents out of the bell was substantially more difficult than a King 606. Eventually I took a micrometer to the bell and confirmed the metal thickness is heavier on the Olds than on the King 606. Further, by my (not accurate) measurements, the bell is thicker than the "heavy gauge" version of the Edwards Tenor bell. Was this because it was a student horn and aimed to be rugged? Or is that just an Olds characteristic...[/quote]

I found that ALL the Olds Trombones had heavy Bells which is a very desirable custom feature with todays boutique manufacturers.

Olds Said.....One standard, different price points (I'm paraphrasing) The bells on my Ambassador, Special, Studio and even the super all feel "thick" compared to Kings, Bachs, Conn's, Getzen, Beuscher and even my Martin's.

Oddly enough the Reynolds and Holton Trombones in the 50's-70's feel very similar to the Olds.

I find while Reynolds and Holton made great jazz and concert trombones, there really isn't anything quite as solid as and Olds. I also have an Olds Opera which I play when I get bored with my Bach 42 or Conn 88H, the opera just feels like an the American Muscle cars of trombones. It's a shame they're gone. What awesome instruments.

drbucher · by **drbucher** » 2023-01-28 11:48 a.m.

Perhaps with a good mouthpiece it might not sound so brassy.

thejoed · by **thejoed** » 2023-01-28 2:10 p.m.

Love my '54 Olds Special.

Nickel/brass bell is bright (but that's what you want), and has a character to its looks that sets it apart from the other "student" horns. Looks don't matter.... but they kind of do.

Schilke 47B mouthpiece sticks out a little too far, but has never hindered my playing, not really an issue.

I've heard the Special called a poor man's 2B, I like it.

Matt4576 · by **Matt4576** » 2023-02-14 5:20 p.m.

I have a Fullerton (1959) Ambassador. Got it for $60 off of Craigslist. It plays just fine and, while it has almost no lacquer left, there is hardly a dent in it. It's definitely heavier and built better than a modern student horn.

I have the olds 3 mouthpiece and agree it works well with it. 6 1/2 AL is too big for it. A 7 works to tone down the brightness of the olds 3 mouthpiece and a 9 takes it even a step farther and sounds pretty good.

If you are going to get a student horn, I would recommend buying it locally and not off of ebay. A lot of the people who churn school used instruments through ebay don't know how to properly evaluate a slide. I bought one off ebay that they said the slide works great and it was really sluggish. A non-trombonist wouldn't know the difference but to me it was barely playable. There are a lot of student trombones on Facebook marketplace that you can go try out and get for cheap too.

MikeSweetsLord · by **MikeSweetsLord** » 2023-03-10 3:06 p.m.

[quote="thejoed"]Love my '54 Olds Special.

Nickel/brass bell is bright (but that's what you want), and has a character to its looks that sets it apart from the other "student" horns. Looks don't matter.... but they kind of do.

Schilke 47B mouthpiece sticks out a little too far, but has never hindered my playing, not really an issue.

I've heard the Special called a poor man's 2B, I like it.[/quote]

Id like to echo the "Poor man's 2B" reference. I left high school and knew my theory well. 'Twas only by sitting next to a committed musician in the bone section did I learn SOMETHING about the horn through osmosis (Our teacher didn't teach any instrument skills). University instructor/symphony player tells me to go get a better horn than my Oxford, so I wind up with a new '72 rose brass Special which was all i knew for the next 25 years. One day while in the local music shop I see the new 2B on clearance for half of MSP so ask to play it. Quite the revelation. A slide that does what it's supposed to, combined with something approaching the sound I hoped for with a comfortable feel to me who'd only known the Olds Special. Jumped onto that and haven't regretted it. A long-winded story but I had to do something to get my third post in!

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2023-03-10 4:04 p.m.

Just picked up an Olds Ambassador for my kid who wants to start playing. A little bit of elbow grease to clean it up and it is t half bad. Not gonna win any beauty contests but it’s a tank. Played a bit on it and man, it’s not that bad at all! Takes a little bit in the upper register…but not too bad at all. Must’ve got a Monday horn! Can’t complain given that it cost a whole $7.00…

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2023-03-10 4:35 p.m.

[quote="atopper333"]Must’ve got a Monday horn! Can’t complain given that it cost a whole $7.00…[/quote]

:horror:

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