Which Would You Choose? King 3B options
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
Long time no see :p
I am considering picking up a "generic" small bore tenor for commercial playing, and DJ Kennedy has let me to two King 3Bs currently for sale (he wrote to someone else about them recently, you can read that conversation HERE <LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=242665&hilit=king+3b+dj#p242665">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=242665&hilit=king+3b+dj#p242665</LINK_TEXT>.)
I want to ask your opinions on which you would choose. I've never been a "gear head" so have limited knowledge of the pros/cons of some trombone features or why X might be preferable over Y, that sort of thing.
The two 3Bs in consideration:
King 3B "Cleveland Era" 1960s: Current owner Mike Corrigan/BAC Music. Has Brass Lab Burt Herrick leadpipe. Original lacquer and case. Previously owned by John Tyler of the Glenn Miller Orchestra, has been played commercially on ships and whatnot.
DJ's description: "the minty one is very flexy jjesque / If you totally into a 3B."
King 3B circa 1955 SN 351857: Current owner Rodney Lancaster, he's got a listing for it on his fb page as well as a short demo vid:[url]https://www.facebook.com/thejazztrombone. It's all-original as far as he knows, except that he's had it relaquered by Taylor Music. May-or-may-not come with a case or gig bag.
DJ's description: "The golden one55 has a lyrical and very lovely feeling"
Other Notes:
- Pricing for both horns is similar/within a few $100 of each other.
- I'm in touch with both sellers, this info all comes from them.
- My primary small bore is an LA Earl Williams Model 6, and my goal is to have a secondary horn that comes somewhat close to the openness and playability that I enjoy on the Williams, with the full understanding that there will not be any perfect match.
- I understand that while I'm considering options someone else could swoop in and pick these up. That's totally fine, your feedback will still help me and possibly other folks with perspectives and decision-making in the future :)
All of that said...which would you choose?
Thanks!
I am considering picking up a "generic" small bore tenor for commercial playing, and DJ Kennedy has let me to two King 3Bs currently for sale (he wrote to someone else about them recently, you can read that conversation HERE <LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?p=242665&hilit=king+3b+dj#p242665">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=242665&hilit=king+3b+dj#p242665</LINK_TEXT>.)
I want to ask your opinions on which you would choose. I've never been a "gear head" so have limited knowledge of the pros/cons of some trombone features or why X might be preferable over Y, that sort of thing.
The two 3Bs in consideration:
King 3B "Cleveland Era" 1960s: Current owner Mike Corrigan/BAC Music. Has Brass Lab Burt Herrick leadpipe. Original lacquer and case. Previously owned by John Tyler of the Glenn Miller Orchestra, has been played commercially on ships and whatnot.
DJ's description: "the minty one is very flexy jjesque / If you totally into a 3B."
King 3B circa 1955 SN 351857: Current owner Rodney Lancaster, he's got a listing for it on his fb page as well as a short demo vid:
DJ's description: "The golden one55 has a lyrical and very lovely feeling"
Other Notes:
- Pricing for both horns is similar/within a few $100 of each other.
- I'm in touch with both sellers, this info all comes from them.
- My primary small bore is an LA Earl Williams Model 6, and my goal is to have a secondary horn that comes somewhat close to the openness and playability that I enjoy on the Williams, with the full understanding that there will not be any perfect match.
- I understand that while I'm considering options someone else could swoop in and pick these up. That's totally fine, your feedback will still help me and possibly other folks with perspectives and decision-making in the future :)
All of that said...which would you choose?
Thanks!
- ssking2b
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Sep 29, 2018
You are aware the Williams you have is .500 bore and the 3Bs are .508? I would consider a 2b+ or and XO 1632 RGL-LT to be closer to the Williams blow.
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="ssking2b"]You are aware the Williams you have is .500 bore and the 3Bs are .508? I would consider a 2b+ or and XO 1632 RGL-LT to be closer to the Williams blow.[/quote]
I had that information but clearly the brain cell that was holding it, dropped it :horror:
So much for the leadpipe theory then! (Have now edited original post to delete that part)
I'm not opposed to a slightly larger bore as I still actively play my large bore too.
In a few days a friend is sending me a 2B to try, conveniently.
Thanks for that info and the XO rec!
I had that information but clearly the brain cell that was holding it, dropped it :horror:
So much for the leadpipe theory then! (Have now edited original post to delete that part)
I'm not opposed to a slightly larger bore as I still actively play my large bore too.
In a few days a friend is sending me a 2B to try, conveniently.
Thanks for that info and the XO rec!
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]<QUOTE author="ssking2b" post_id="246131" time="1719242039" user_id="3785">
You are aware the Williams you have is .500 bore and the 3Bs are .508? I would consider a 2b+ or and XO 1632 RGL-LT to be closer to the Williams blow.[/quote]
I'm not opposed to a slightly larger bore as I still actively play my large bore too.
In a few days a friend is sending me a 2B to try, conveniently.
</QUOTE>
Megan,
The King 2B (0.481"/0.491" dual bore) will not blow like a Williams 6 (0.500" bore).
Nor will a King 3B (0.508" bore).
The King 2B+ [= 2B Plus] (0.500" single bore) may come closer, as might the XO 1632.
Lots of other 0.500" bore trombones often available used at very affordable prices
(e.g., Conn 48H, Conn 6H, ...)
ALL can be wonderful and fun to play.
But the William 6, by all descriptions, is unique, so you'll definitely have to get used to another blow.
You are aware the Williams you have is .500 bore and the 3Bs are .508? I would consider a 2b+ or and XO 1632 RGL-LT to be closer to the Williams blow.[/quote]
I'm not opposed to a slightly larger bore as I still actively play my large bore too.
In a few days a friend is sending me a 2B to try, conveniently.
</QUOTE>
Megan,
The King 2B (0.481"/0.491" dual bore) will not blow like a Williams 6 (0.500" bore).
Nor will a King 3B (0.508" bore).
The King 2B+ [= 2B Plus] (0.500" single bore) may come closer, as might the XO 1632.
Lots of other 0.500" bore trombones often available used at very affordable prices
(e.g., Conn 48H, Conn 6H, ...)
ALL can be wonderful and fun to play.
But the William 6, by all descriptions, is unique, so you'll definitely have to get used to another blow.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Based on DJ's descriptions, you want the '60s horn.
A 3B won't play like a Williams 6 (nothing does), but I think you'll like it. I've played many 3Bs and multiple Williams 6s at DJ's place and would have been happy to walk out with any of them. He knows his horns.
A 3B won't play like a Williams 6 (nothing does), but I think you'll like it. I've played many 3Bs and multiple Williams 6s at DJ's place and would have been happy to walk out with any of them. He knows his horns.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=36182">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=36182</LINK_TEXT>
Bob (Fairlane57) is a great TC member. If he says it's a good trombone ... it IS!
Bob (Fairlane57) is a great TC member. If he says it's a good trombone ... it IS!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
Thanks y'all for this feedback! I just found out there's ALSO a Williams for sale so now I REALLY have food for thought haha. My leaning has also been toward the 60s horn. We will see how far I get with all this.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Are you settled on a straight tenor? If not, you might give some thought to a 3B/F. I know Aidan (Burgerbob) has put a lot of miles on his.
[quote="Jhereg"]Long time no see :p[/quote]
Good to see you're still out there making music. An acquaintance is headed off to KC to work for BAC, which got me to wondering how you're doing.
[quote="Jhereg"]Long time no see :p[/quote]
Good to see you're still out there making music. An acquaintance is headed off to KC to work for BAC, which got me to wondering how you're doing.
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Are you settled on a straight tenor? If not, you might give some thought to a 3B/F. I know Aidan (Burgerbob) has put a lot of miles on his.
<QUOTE author="Jhereg" post_id="246129" time="1719241685" user_id="3030">
Long time no see :p[/quote]
Good to see you're still out there making music. An acquaintance is headed off to KC to work for BAC, which got me to wondering how you're doing.
</QUOTE>
Hi John :)
The reason I'm looking for a straight tenor is because up until now, I've played the Williams on E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. The circus, a cruise ship, various local pit gigs, on national tours...and now at Disney.
At Disney. Outdoors. In Florida. With the kind of summer we're having currently :redface:
My Williams is all-original and has never needed major repair in it's whole life (knock on wood). Between the horrific FL weather and the chance that it could get hit/damaged during audience interaction (there's a part where I hand out maracas while also holding my horn) I don't want to play it in the park. But! The only other small bore tenor that I have is my Minick :? Which is ALSO not really replaceable, and is also not a good fit for me as a player.
I'm not desperately looking--I only have four more scheduled days at Disney anyway--but thought it would be good to have a horn that I can use for outdoor work or for situations where The Historical Instrument Collection might be put at risk :p
Incidentally, I am also looking to replace my Bach 42A at some point..also very casually looking, no rush, just discovered after a decade of being away from my Bach that it's no longer a fit for the player I became over that time. Wanted to try one of the new Getzens but they're backordered for months, and now waiting to see when O'Malley horns out of Chicago might become available. But all that said I'll bookmark the 3B/F, thanks for the suggestion!
Kind of a long answer, sorry!
<QUOTE author="Jhereg" post_id="246129" time="1719241685" user_id="3030">
Long time no see :p[/quote]
Good to see you're still out there making music. An acquaintance is headed off to KC to work for BAC, which got me to wondering how you're doing.
</QUOTE>
Hi John :)
The reason I'm looking for a straight tenor is because up until now, I've played the Williams on E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. The circus, a cruise ship, various local pit gigs, on national tours...and now at Disney.
At Disney. Outdoors. In Florida. With the kind of summer we're having currently :redface:
My Williams is all-original and has never needed major repair in it's whole life (knock on wood). Between the horrific FL weather and the chance that it could get hit/damaged during audience interaction (there's a part where I hand out maracas while also holding my horn) I don't want to play it in the park. But! The only other small bore tenor that I have is my Minick :? Which is ALSO not really replaceable, and is also not a good fit for me as a player.
I'm not desperately looking--I only have four more scheduled days at Disney anyway--but thought it would be good to have a horn that I can use for outdoor work or for situations where The Historical Instrument Collection might be put at risk :p
Incidentally, I am also looking to replace my Bach 42A at some point..also very casually looking, no rush, just discovered after a decade of being away from my Bach that it's no longer a fit for the player I became over that time. Wanted to try one of the new Getzens but they're backordered for months, and now waiting to see when O'Malley horns out of Chicago might become available. But all that said I'll bookmark the 3B/F, thanks for the suggestion!
Kind of a long answer, sorry!
- modelerdc
- Posts: 352
- Joined: May 03, 2018
Without play testing I'd buy the one with the original lacquer. It's had a lead pipe change, so be prepared to change that if it's not to you liking. EZ if the replacement lead pipe is not soldered in. Relacquer jobs may hid previous repairs and looks are no guide to how it plays.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]The reason I'm looking for a straight tenor is because up until now, I've played the Williams on E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. The circus, a cruise ship, various local pit gigs, on national tours...and now at Disney.
At Disney. Outdoors. In Florida. With the kind of summer we're having currently :redface:[/quote]
Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where. They've also both played a LOT of instruments so they're pretty well placed to offered informed advice.
[quote="Jhereg"]Kind of a long answer, sorry![/quote]
It's all good. Just glad you're still fighting the good fight. It sounded like things were a little rocky there for a while after Ringling's shut down.
At Disney. Outdoors. In Florida. With the kind of summer we're having currently :redface:[/quote]
Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where. They've also both played a LOT of instruments so they're pretty well placed to offered informed advice.
[quote="Jhereg"]Kind of a long answer, sorry![/quote]
It's all good. Just glad you're still fighting the good fight. It sounded like things were a little rocky there for a while after Ringling's shut down.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Having been a 3B fan for a long time, and knowing how 3Bs tend to be from horn to horn ... I'd pick the 3B!
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where.[/quote]
I only play bass trombone at Disneyland (for now...still waiting to crosstrain on a tenor part!) but quite a few of the tenor players play Kings in the park. I played next to Aidan on his 3BF last week and he sounded great on it like always.
I play my 3B and 3BF (and 607!) a LOT - they are probably the trombones that leave the house the most! I use them in all sorts of situations and they're always great. And since they're already old and worn, I don't have to worry about beating them up.
I only play bass trombone at Disneyland (for now...still waiting to crosstrain on a tenor part!) but quite a few of the tenor players play Kings in the park. I played next to Aidan on his 3BF last week and he sounded great on it like always.
I play my 3B and 3BF (and 607!) a LOT - they are probably the trombones that leave the house the most! I use them in all sorts of situations and they're always great. And since they're already old and worn, I don't have to worry about beating them up.
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="246179" time="1719259343" user_id="119">
Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where.[/quote]
I only play bass trombone at Disneyland (for now...still waiting to crosstrain on a tenor part!) but quite a few of the tenor players play Kings in the park. I played next to Aidan on his 3BF last week and he sounded great on it like always.
I play my 3B and 3BF (and 607!) a LOT - they are probably the trombones that leave the house the most! I use them in all sorts of situations and they're always great. And since they're already old and worn, I don't have to worry about beating them up.
</QUOTE>
Thank you! VERY much appreciate your insights! CA weather is a little less…uh…SEVERE than in WDW haha. Yet, it sounds like the 3B is a great all-rounder :)
I’ve seen videos of the Disneyland Band and y’all are FANTASTIC. Larger band than we have, and more choreography. I’m just a sub over here but very much admire and appreciate the original CA band!!
Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where.[/quote]
I only play bass trombone at Disneyland (for now...still waiting to crosstrain on a tenor part!) but quite a few of the tenor players play Kings in the park. I played next to Aidan on his 3BF last week and he sounded great on it like always.
I play my 3B and 3BF (and 607!) a LOT - they are probably the trombones that leave the house the most! I use them in all sorts of situations and they're always great. And since they're already old and worn, I don't have to worry about beating them up.
</QUOTE>
Thank you! VERY much appreciate your insights! CA weather is a little less…uh…SEVERE than in WDW haha. Yet, it sounds like the 3B is a great all-rounder :)
I’ve seen videos of the Disneyland Band and y’all are FANTASTIC. Larger band than we have, and more choreography. I’m just a sub over here but very much admire and appreciate the original CA band!!
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]Thank you! VERY much appreciate your insights! CA weather is a little less…uh…SEVERE than in WDW haha. Yet, it sounds like the 3B is a great all-rounder :)[/quote]
Ohhhh yes...I do NOT miss that Florida humidity at WDW!
Ohhhh yes...I do NOT miss that Florida humidity at WDW!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]<QUOTE author="Jhereg" post_id="246191" time="1719271699" user_id="3030">Thank you! VERY much appreciate your insights! CA weather is a little less…uh…SEVERE than in WDW haha. Yet, it sounds like the 3B is a great all-rounder :)[/quote]
Ohhhh yes...I do NOT miss that Florida humidity at WDW!
</QUOTE>
JEALOUS OF YOU :biggrin:
Ohhhh yes...I do NOT miss that Florida humidity at WDW!
</QUOTE>
JEALOUS OF YOU :biggrin:
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]It's all good. Just glad you're still fighting the good fight. It sounded like things were a little rocky there for a while after Ringling's shut down.[/quote]
Ah well..when I'm not tromboning I'm doing data entry for $12/hour, so things are still not exactly "smooth" haha. But am grateful for the tours and for Disney opportunities that came up post-pandemic!
Hope you're doing well :)
Ah well..when I'm not tromboning I'm doing data entry for $12/hour, so things are still not exactly "smooth" haha. But am grateful for the tours and for Disney opportunities that came up post-pandemic!
Hope you're doing well :)
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]I'd personally go for the '60s horn, I think.[/quote]
Seconded.
I have experience with a couple '60s 3Bs. The fact that it doesn't have the original leadpipe is a plus, IMHO.
In the 3B universe - the HN White - Cleveland models, of which I am sure this is one, are sort of considered by many to be the standard to which all other eras of 3Bs get compared.
Seconded.
I have experience with a couple '60s 3Bs. The fact that it doesn't have the original leadpipe is a plus, IMHO.
In the 3B universe - the HN White - Cleveland models, of which I am sure this is one, are sort of considered by many to be the standard to which all other eras of 3Bs get compared.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
There are advocates for every era of 3B, as they all play well. Thanks to DJ, the loopy engraving ('70s) is my favorite/preferred era.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]There are advocates for every era of 3B, as they all play well. Thanks to DJ, the loopy engraving ('70s) is my favorite/preferred era.[/quote]
I have played a King 3B Concert "SilverSonic" (S/N 4244xx, ~1967?), and own a King 3B-F Concert (S/N 6982xx, ~1976?). No other basis of comparison, but these are both fine instruments - robust, easy to play, nice tone.
As others have said the 3B-F is quite versatile, even with the original soldered-in leadpipe; will accomodate a variety of mouthpieces and playing styles. :idea:
I have played a King 3B Concert "SilverSonic" (S/N 4244xx, ~1967?), and own a King 3B-F Concert (S/N 6982xx, ~1976?). No other basis of comparison, but these are both fine instruments - robust, easy to play, nice tone.
As others have said the 3B-F is quite versatile, even with the original soldered-in leadpipe; will accomodate a variety of mouthpieces and playing styles. :idea:
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]As others have said the 3B-F is quite versatile, even with the original soldered-in leadpipe; will accomodate a variety of mouthpieces and playing styles. :idea:[/quote]
Yes, that's part of the magic of the 3B - it's happy with pretty much any mouthpiece. It's not picky!
Yes, that's part of the magic of the 3B - it's happy with pretty much any mouthpiece. It's not picky!
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I don't think anyone has explicitly mentioned it as a recommendation but you might want to consider a 3BF or King 607F as a compliment to the Williams, since it won't play identically anyway --- the F attachment gives a lot of extra versatility. The 607 is a smaller medium bore so it would be slightly more contrasting than a 3BF both play awesome though.
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]I don't think anyone has explicitly mentioned it as a recommendation but you might want to consider a 3BF or King 607F as a compliment to the Williams, since it won't play identically anyway --- the F attachment gives a lot of extra versatility. The 607 is a smaller medium bore so it would be slightly more contrasting than a 3BF both play awesome though.[/quote]
Actually, I did get a recommendation for a 3B/F somewhere above! But still, thank you. I'll keep it in mind but so far haven't found myself in a situation where I needed a trigger while playing a small bore, on the gig I'm looking to use this for.
The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general. It has nothing at all to do with range.
Actually, I did get a recommendation for a 3B/F somewhere above! But still, thank you. I'll keep it in mind but so far haven't found myself in a situation where I needed a trigger while playing a small bore, on the gig I'm looking to use this for.
The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general. It has nothing at all to do with range.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general.[/quote]
Both the 3B and 3B/F tick that box, but the 3B/F brings a little extra versatility. In a section of three or four, with a bass trombone on the bottom part? Not significant in the vast majority of situations. But in a small horn line, particularly if there's no bari sax? A few strategically placed low notes can really fatten up the sound.
Both the 3B and 3B/F tick that box, but the 3B/F brings a little extra versatility. In a section of three or four, with a bass trombone on the bottom part? Not significant in the vast majority of situations. But in a small horn line, particularly if there's no bari sax? A few strategically placed low notes can really fatten up the sound.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]Actually, I did get a recommendation for a 3B/F somewhere above! But still, thank you. I'll keep it in mind but so far haven't found myself in a situation where I needed a trigger while playing a small bore, on the gig I'm looking to use this for.
The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general. It has nothing at all to do with range.[/quote]
You'll be happy with either the 3B or 3BF. My pair plays exactly the same, the only consideration for which I pick is "do I want the valve or not?" If you feel like you don't need the F, don't get the F. 3Bs and 3BFs grow on trees, so you'll never be short of options if you change your mind!
At Disneyland, all 3 tenor parts have a lot of 6th and 7th position notes, so the F attachment is nice to have. I don't know if the Main Street Phil tenor books are the same way.
The 3BF really excels at things like musicals, wedding gigs, etc., but you may not need that capability.
The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general. It has nothing at all to do with range.[/quote]
You'll be happy with either the 3B or 3BF. My pair plays exactly the same, the only consideration for which I pick is "do I want the valve or not?" If you feel like you don't need the F, don't get the F. 3Bs and 3BFs grow on trees, so you'll never be short of options if you change your mind!
At Disneyland, all 3 tenor parts have a lot of 6th and 7th position notes, so the F attachment is nice to have. I don't know if the Main Street Phil tenor books are the same way.
The 3BF really excels at things like musicals, wedding gigs, etc., but you may not need that capability.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I didn't think I'd ever want a small bore with an F attachment but now, all my smallbores have them! It ends up being pretty handy to facilitate playing in the bass clef register, although as noted, the King small bores have a much better low range than they should and it is cool to sub for a bari sax or drop lines down an octave too. Being able to play B and C in a closer position really opens up things like, for example, the B half dim arpeggio in Donna Lee. Certainly possible on trombone, but it's a heck of a lot easier with the F attachment. Either way, it's really hard to go wrong, 3B and 3BF are both great horns!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]You'll be happy with either the 3B or 3BF. My pair plays exactly the same, the only consideration for which I pick is "do I want the valve or not?" If you feel like you don't need the F, don't get the F. 3Bs and 3BFs grow on trees, so you'll never be short of options if you change your mind!
At Disneyland, all 3 tenor parts have a lot of 6th and 7th position notes, so the F attachment is nice to have. I don't know if the Main Street Phil tenor books are the same way.
The 3BF really excels at things like musicals, wedding gigs, etc., but you may not need that capability.[/quote]
Ah interesting! Thanks :)
For Main Street Phil, I'm a sub on the lead book. It is VERY high for a sustained amount of time! We have a three-page Encanto Medley where I barely get below an E haha. Book 2, I've seen people play on either an F attachment or straight. And for Book 3 everyone needs the trigger.
We just got shunted back onto part time hours (womp wooomp) and I'm just a sub, so currently I have four more performances in the park and nothing scheduled after that. If I were a regular member I'd be more considerate of long-term versatility for intense outdoor playing, but taking into account all the other types of gigs I play (does include musicals and weddings!) the Williams and my Bach 42 have been totally fine, I haven't needed a 'tweener yet, but I can see from your descriptions and others chiming in that it should definitely be on my radar to snag one at SOME point, whether that's now or later :)
(eta) My other hang-up here is that I'm likely not going to get to try before I buy, which is making me hesitant to commit...hence coming here to pussyfoot about it and gather opinions :lol:
At Disneyland, all 3 tenor parts have a lot of 6th and 7th position notes, so the F attachment is nice to have. I don't know if the Main Street Phil tenor books are the same way.
The 3BF really excels at things like musicals, wedding gigs, etc., but you may not need that capability.[/quote]
Ah interesting! Thanks :)
For Main Street Phil, I'm a sub on the lead book. It is VERY high for a sustained amount of time! We have a three-page Encanto Medley where I barely get below an E haha. Book 2, I've seen people play on either an F attachment or straight. And for Book 3 everyone needs the trigger.
We just got shunted back onto part time hours (womp wooomp) and I'm just a sub, so currently I have four more performances in the park and nothing scheduled after that. If I were a regular member I'd be more considerate of long-term versatility for intense outdoor playing, but taking into account all the other types of gigs I play (does include musicals and weddings!) the Williams and my Bach 42 have been totally fine, I haven't needed a 'tweener yet, but I can see from your descriptions and others chiming in that it should definitely be on my radar to snag one at SOME point, whether that's now or later :)
(eta) My other hang-up here is that I'm likely not going to get to try before I buy, which is making me hesitant to commit...hence coming here to pussyfoot about it and gather opinions :lol:
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]I didn't think I'd ever want a small bore with an F attachment but now, all my smallbores have them! It ends up being pretty handy to facilitate playing in the bass clef register, although as noted, the King small bores have a much better low range than they should and it is cool to sub for a bari sax or drop lines down an octave too. Being able to play B and C in a closer position really opens up things like, for example, the B half dim arpeggio in Donna Lee. Certainly possible on trombone, but it's a heck of a lot easier with the F attachment. Either way, it's really hard to go wrong, 3B and 3BF are both great horns![/quote]
Cool! Does indeed sound handy. Up to this point I haven't come across the need for a small bore F, but can see how having one could be super useful in lots of situations/music. I can think of some musicals where there's just that ONE note that needs a trigger, how annoying haha.
I'll keep this on my radar and see if anyone's selling 'em. Thanks!
Cool! Does indeed sound handy. Up to this point I haven't come across the need for a small bore F, but can see how having one could be super useful in lots of situations/music. I can think of some musicals where there's just that ONE note that needs a trigger, how annoying haha.
I'll keep this on my radar and see if anyone's selling 'em. Thanks!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="bassclef"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="246145" time="1719246655" user_id="3131">
I'd personally go for the '60s horn, I think.[/quote]
Seconded.
I have experience with a couple '60s 3Bs. The fact that it doesn't have the original leadpipe is a plus, IMHO.
In the 3B universe - the HN White - Cleveland models, of which I am sure this is one, are sort of considered by many to be the standard to which all other eras of 3Bs get compared.
</QUOTE>
Awesome, thank you for your view on this! It's so dang tough...I wasn't planning to spend $$$$ this summer, but when good horns pop up at a time of need...they're here and then they're gone. So I really appreciate your (and everyone's) feedback that'll help me decide what to do.
I'd personally go for the '60s horn, I think.[/quote]
Seconded.
I have experience with a couple '60s 3Bs. The fact that it doesn't have the original leadpipe is a plus, IMHO.
In the 3B universe - the HN White - Cleveland models, of which I am sure this is one, are sort of considered by many to be the standard to which all other eras of 3Bs get compared.
</QUOTE>
Awesome, thank you for your view on this! It's so dang tough...I wasn't planning to spend $$$$ this summer, but when good horns pop up at a time of need...they're here and then they're gone. So I really appreciate your (and everyone's) feedback that'll help me decide what to do.
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]There are advocates for every era of 3B, as they all play well. Thanks to DJ, the loopy engraving ('70s) is my favorite/preferred era.[/quote]
Yeah, I have read a lot about that era as well, I remember DJ saying that salsa players sought those out.
That's the only age of 3B I have never personally tried, but I'd like to. I have only ever owned 2 60's and 2 from the 80s (engraved 2103 on the bell with the KING counterweight sticker). Preferred the 60s for overall sound characteristics. The 80s were really not far off of that but seemed easier to play as the lacked some of the intonation and response inconsistencies. That is actually why I remarked that I thought it was good that the factory leadpipe was gone from the edition Jhereg is considering. I definitely would have yanked that out if I kept one of the 60s horns.
Yeah, I have read a lot about that era as well, I remember DJ saying that salsa players sought those out.
That's the only age of 3B I have never personally tried, but I'd like to. I have only ever owned 2 60's and 2 from the 80s (engraved 2103 on the bell with the KING counterweight sticker). Preferred the 60s for overall sound characteristics. The 80s were really not far off of that but seemed easier to play as the lacked some of the intonation and response inconsistencies. That is actually why I remarked that I thought it was good that the factory leadpipe was gone from the edition Jhereg is considering. I definitely would have yanked that out if I kept one of the 60s horns.
- bassclef
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"](eta) My other hang-up here is that I'm likely not going to get to try before I buy, which is making me hesitant to commit...hence coming here to pussyfoot about it and gather opinions :lol:[/quote]
I totally understand that!
I think this is one of the great (non-musical) characteristics of a used 3B - if you get it for a fair price and it's in decent shape, you will almost never lose money selling it on if it's not the one for you.
I totally understand that!
I think this is one of the great (non-musical) characteristics of a used 3B - if you get it for a fair price and it's in decent shape, you will almost never lose money selling it on if it's not the one for you.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Maybe my comment was seen as facetious, but 60's 70's 90's and even the most recent ones from 2020 all play like 3Bs. I never tried one from the 80s or early 2000s, though.
There might be subtle differences, but they aren't that big. And that goes for Bb/F vs Bb only, too.
I'd grab whichever one has the smoothest slide. I had my leadpipe from my late 60s SS pulled and made press-fit. The OG pipe is a big factor in how the thing plays, but options are always nice.
It's almost a shame that you see the 3B as a beater to use instead of the Williams, but I totally understand the reasoning and the value of the Williams horn. The 3Bs are such great horns, you'll love it in the setting your planning to use it for.
There might be subtle differences, but they aren't that big. And that goes for Bb/F vs Bb only, too.
I'd grab whichever one has the smoothest slide. I had my leadpipe from my late 60s SS pulled and made press-fit. The OG pipe is a big factor in how the thing plays, but options are always nice.
It's almost a shame that you see the 3B as a beater to use instead of the Williams, but I totally understand the reasoning and the value of the Williams horn. The 3Bs are such great horns, you'll love it in the setting your planning to use it for.
- mazman
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Jul 05, 2023
6H is worth a look at .500 bore. I think they're a little easier to play than a 3B, especially above Bb5.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
One thing about a 3B/F; there are those who find the trigger configuration to be an issue. Before you buy one without playing it, you might want to see if you can find someone local who has one that you can look at and see if it fits your hand.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="JohnL"]One thing about a 3B/F; there are those who find the trigger configuration to be an issue. Before you buy one without playing it, you might want to see if you can find someone local who has one that you can look at and see if it fits your hand.[/quote]
I do like my 3B-F. But John is right - the ergonomics of the valve are "questionable." My 3B-F is from ~1976, with a string linkage on the valve. (Newer versions are different.) Using the valve lever is a bit awkward for me. My left thumb is not in the best position to comfortably operate the valve. Otherwise I really treasure this (very affordable) trombone, which has a great slide, smooth valve, and a nice sound!
I do like my 3B-F. But John is right - the ergonomics of the valve are "questionable." My 3B-F is from ~1976, with a string linkage on the valve. (Newer versions are different.) Using the valve lever is a bit awkward for me. My left thumb is not in the best position to comfortably operate the valve. Otherwise I really treasure this (very affordable) trombone, which has a great slide, smooth valve, and a nice sound!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]
I'd grab whichever one has the smoothest slide.
It's almost a shame that you see the 3B as a beater to use instead of the Williams, but I totally understand the reasoning and the value of the Williams horn. The 3Bs are such great horns, you'll love it in the setting your planning to use it for.[/quote]
Re: smooth slide: Yes absolutely…except I have no way of knowing which has the better slide as they’re from two different sellers in different parts of the country! Trusting that they’re both wonderful slides, as both sellers are professionals themselves. And trusting that my buddy Pat Gullotta will be able to make either slide silky smooth :D
Re: 3B vs Williams in an amusement park: I hope I didn’t say anywhere that I’d value a 3B any less. In all ways I’d protect and care for it just as I do my rare horns. But I think you understand: once the Williams is gone…it’s gone.
I may end up valuing the 3B just as much as, or more than, the Williams. But if the 3B gets damaged, there are good odds that I can find another one just as good.
Rarity aside, the Williams IS my primary axe. I’ve used it on almost every single gig I’ve had for the past ten years because I love how it plays! It would be a shame to lose my favorite, primary horn. Whether it were a Williams or a pawn shop King 606 I’d want to protect mah baby! :lol:
I'd grab whichever one has the smoothest slide.
It's almost a shame that you see the 3B as a beater to use instead of the Williams, but I totally understand the reasoning and the value of the Williams horn. The 3Bs are such great horns, you'll love it in the setting your planning to use it for.[/quote]
Re: smooth slide: Yes absolutely…except I have no way of knowing which has the better slide as they’re from two different sellers in different parts of the country! Trusting that they’re both wonderful slides, as both sellers are professionals themselves. And trusting that my buddy Pat Gullotta will be able to make either slide silky smooth :D
Re: 3B vs Williams in an amusement park: I hope I didn’t say anywhere that I’d value a 3B any less. In all ways I’d protect and care for it just as I do my rare horns. But I think you understand: once the Williams is gone…it’s gone.
I may end up valuing the 3B just as much as, or more than, the Williams. But if the 3B gets damaged, there are good odds that I can find another one just as good.
Rarity aside, the Williams IS my primary axe. I’ve used it on almost every single gig I’ve had for the past ten years because I love how it plays! It would be a shame to lose my favorite, primary horn. Whether it were a Williams or a pawn shop King 606 I’d want to protect mah baby! :lol:
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="246332" time="1719419611" user_id="119">
One thing about a 3B/F; there are those who find the trigger configuration to be an issue. Before you buy one without playing it, you might want to see if you can find someone local who has one that you can look at and see if it fits your hand.[/quote]
I do like my 3B-F. But John is right - the ergonomics of the valve are "questionable." My 3B-F is from ~1976, with a string linkage on the valve. (Newer versions are different.) Using the valve lever is a bit awkward for me. My left thumb is not in the best position to comfortably operate the valve. Otherwise I really treasure this (very affordable) trombone, which has a great slide, smooth valve, and a nice sound!
</QUOTE>
Ah thanks guys, these are great points!
One thing about a 3B/F; there are those who find the trigger configuration to be an issue. Before you buy one without playing it, you might want to see if you can find someone local who has one that you can look at and see if it fits your hand.[/quote]
I do like my 3B-F. But John is right - the ergonomics of the valve are "questionable." My 3B-F is from ~1976, with a string linkage on the valve. (Newer versions are different.) Using the valve lever is a bit awkward for me. My left thumb is not in the best position to comfortably operate the valve. Otherwise I really treasure this (very affordable) trombone, which has a great slide, smooth valve, and a nice sound!
</QUOTE>
Ah thanks guys, these are great points!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="mazman"]6H is worth a look at .500 bore. I think they're a little easier to play than a 3B, especially above Bb5.[/quote]
That's fair, thanks for the recommendation!
That's fair, thanks for the recommendation!
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
If the floor is open to other suggestions, a Benge 170 Freelance might just fit the bill. It’s related to a 3B in some aspects, probably closer to a 2B+ (0.500”) in Gold Brass, either way a very cool sound, excellent playability and relatively good value compared to some very sought-after horns.
- RJMason
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Jun 05, 2018
Between those 3Bs I’d personally go with the 60s one if the price isn’t too much.
Other options: consider a Yamaha. I have owned and played numerous 3Bs, as well as 6Hs, a Williams 7, and a Minick .500, but was also worried about using an irreplaceable horn at work. I find that Yamahas are built consistently and the 891 has a light brass slide and nickel crook that feels like a Bob Williams slide when broken in.
You aren’t going to have the same feedback as the set back bell on any of these horns, would have to go to Bach or a Conn ballroom model. But I wouldn’t recommend either for outdoor gigs due to lack of wide projection or too old/too tight.
Easy to find a new one. If it breaks go to sweetwater lol. Many think they sound boring or uninteresting, but you have a Williams and a Minick so if you need brass alchemy for a job just take one of those out.
My Yamaha reminds me of a Bach some days, a King 3B other days, and a Williams on occasion (especially from the other side of the bell on recordings).
Also think it’s useful for a musician to have the Yamaha sound profile in their horn stable.
Or buy two well used 3Bs for the price of a used Yammie and get them rebuilt knowing you have backup parts. Make one screw bell for travel. Tons of options, but once again, if you already have rare vintage magic, why not widen the palette with a solid modern sound concept?
Other options: consider a Yamaha. I have owned and played numerous 3Bs, as well as 6Hs, a Williams 7, and a Minick .500, but was also worried about using an irreplaceable horn at work. I find that Yamahas are built consistently and the 891 has a light brass slide and nickel crook that feels like a Bob Williams slide when broken in.
You aren’t going to have the same feedback as the set back bell on any of these horns, would have to go to Bach or a Conn ballroom model. But I wouldn’t recommend either for outdoor gigs due to lack of wide projection or too old/too tight.
Easy to find a new one. If it breaks go to sweetwater lol. Many think they sound boring or uninteresting, but you have a Williams and a Minick so if you need brass alchemy for a job just take one of those out.
My Yamaha reminds me of a Bach some days, a King 3B other days, and a Williams on occasion (especially from the other side of the bell on recordings).
Also think it’s useful for a musician to have the Yamaha sound profile in their horn stable.
Or buy two well used 3Bs for the price of a used Yammie and get them rebuilt knowing you have backup parts. Make one screw bell for travel. Tons of options, but once again, if you already have rare vintage magic, why not widen the palette with a solid modern sound concept?
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="MrHCinDE"]If the floor is open to other suggestions, a Benge 170 Freelance might just fit the bill. It’s related to a 3B in some aspects, probably closer to a 2B+ (0.500”) in Gold Brass, either way a very cool sound, excellent playability and relatively good value compared to some very sought-after horns.[/quote]
Thanks!
Thanks!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="RJMason"]Between those 3Bs I’d personally go with the 60s one if the price isn’t too much.
Other options: consider a Yamaha. I have owned and played numerous 3Bs, as well as 6Hs, a Williams 7, and a Minick .500, but was also worried about using an irreplaceable horn at work. I find that Yamahas are built consistently and the 891 has a light brass slide and nickel crook that feels like a Bob Williams slide when broken in.
You aren’t going to have the same feedback as the set back bell on any of these horns, would have to go to Bach or a Conn ballroom model. But I wouldn’t recommend either for outdoor gigs due to lack of wide projection or too old/too tight.
Easy to find a new one. If it breaks go to sweetwater lol. Many think they sound boring or uninteresting, but you have a Williams and a Minick so if you need brass alchemy for a job just take one of those out.
My Yamaha reminds me of a Bach some days, a King 3B other days, and a Williams on occasion (especially from the other side of the bell on recordings).
Also think it’s useful for a musician to have the Yamaha sound profile in their horn stable.
Or buy two well used 3Bs for the price of a used Yammie and get them rebuilt knowing you have backup parts. Make one screw bell for travel. Tons of options, but once again, if you already have rare vintage magic, why not widen the palette with a solid modern sound concept?[/quote]
That seems like a good strong argument, thanks!
Other options: consider a Yamaha. I have owned and played numerous 3Bs, as well as 6Hs, a Williams 7, and a Minick .500, but was also worried about using an irreplaceable horn at work. I find that Yamahas are built consistently and the 891 has a light brass slide and nickel crook that feels like a Bob Williams slide when broken in.
You aren’t going to have the same feedback as the set back bell on any of these horns, would have to go to Bach or a Conn ballroom model. But I wouldn’t recommend either for outdoor gigs due to lack of wide projection or too old/too tight.
Easy to find a new one. If it breaks go to sweetwater lol. Many think they sound boring or uninteresting, but you have a Williams and a Minick so if you need brass alchemy for a job just take one of those out.
My Yamaha reminds me of a Bach some days, a King 3B other days, and a Williams on occasion (especially from the other side of the bell on recordings).
Also think it’s useful for a musician to have the Yamaha sound profile in their horn stable.
Or buy two well used 3Bs for the price of a used Yammie and get them rebuilt knowing you have backup parts. Make one screw bell for travel. Tons of options, but once again, if you already have rare vintage magic, why not widen the palette with a solid modern sound concept?[/quote]
That seems like a good strong argument, thanks!
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
I might be totally wrong, but I thought that the Schmelzer trombones might be somewhat following the idea of the Williams trombones? I have never played a Schmelzer or Williams, so really just an idea. And I don't know how available the Schmelzers are in the US.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]....
- My primary small bore is an LA Earl Williams Model 6, and my goal is to have a secondary horn that comes somewhat close to the openness and playability that I enjoy on the Williams, with the full understanding that there will not be any perfect match.
....[/quote]
If I were a Williams player and I wanted another 500 bore kinda close, I'd start with something kinda like a Williams. My impression of Williams is that they are heavy horns.
The 3B really isn't like that at all - it's relatively bright and light. It's got a bit of a cult following recently around here, and turns up as the answer to every question. They're fine horns, but at the risk of overthinking things, I think there are better instruments available.
Heavy is going to be Lawler, maybe Edwards or Shires or the Courtois 402. Schilke/Greenhoe or the Schmelzer mentioned might be a great option. Or if you're looking for a more available, affordable horn, maybe an Olds, say a Studio or Recording. Or in Conns a 30h has a great sound, and of course the 48h is fairly heavy with a nice malleable sound.
Personally, of all these, I'd pick either the Schilke/Greenhoe or 48h.
If you really don't mind a lighter horn, I'd pick a Getzen 3508 over the 3B any day. Of course it doesn't have an F attachment.
- My primary small bore is an LA Earl Williams Model 6, and my goal is to have a secondary horn that comes somewhat close to the openness and playability that I enjoy on the Williams, with the full understanding that there will not be any perfect match.
....[/quote]
If I were a Williams player and I wanted another 500 bore kinda close, I'd start with something kinda like a Williams. My impression of Williams is that they are heavy horns.
The 3B really isn't like that at all - it's relatively bright and light. It's got a bit of a cult following recently around here, and turns up as the answer to every question. They're fine horns, but at the risk of overthinking things, I think there are better instruments available.
Heavy is going to be Lawler, maybe Edwards or Shires or the Courtois 402. Schilke/Greenhoe or the Schmelzer mentioned might be a great option. Or if you're looking for a more available, affordable horn, maybe an Olds, say a Studio or Recording. Or in Conns a 30h has a great sound, and of course the 48h is fairly heavy with a nice malleable sound.
Personally, of all these, I'd pick either the Schilke/Greenhoe or 48h.
If you really don't mind a lighter horn, I'd pick a Getzen 3508 over the 3B any day. Of course it doesn't have an F attachment.
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="MStarke"]I might be totally wrong, but I thought that the Schmelzer trombones might be somewhat following the idea of the Williams trombones? I have never played a Schmelzer or Williams, so really just an idea. And I don't know how available the Schmelzers are in the US.[/quote]
The bracing looks visually like a Wiliams. They're using silver/gold, but nothing wrong with doing whatever sounds awesome I'm sure. Never heard of this brand, pretty cool!
It's ok, I can count on one hand how many people actually answered the question that I asked in this post :lol: Appreciate learning something new about who's making what trombone-wise in the world!
The bracing looks visually like a Wiliams. They're using silver/gold, but nothing wrong with doing whatever sounds awesome I'm sure. Never heard of this brand, pretty cool!
It's ok, I can count on one hand how many people actually answered the question that I asked in this post :lol: Appreciate learning something new about who's making what trombone-wise in the world!
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I think the Yamaha get slightly erroneously typecast because of the designs of some of their models. There is actually quite a bit of diversity in the Yamaha lineup and their small bores have never played "boring" to me, FWIW. Their newest models with the screw bells are excellent, actually. Some of their medium and intermediate series have fairly heavy, one-piece bells with unsoldered beads and those could be characterised as "boring", although I played one for several years (the YSL356) and found it to be reasonably easy to balance with mouthpiece and leadpipe selection. Their medium bores are also all "large" chassis like the Edwards, Shires, and Bach selections and their "pro" medium bores have 8.5" bells which is an odd choice for me, but I think their target market were people downsizing large equipment rather than upsizing small equipment.
The 3508 is also a great horn. I have a 3508Y bell on my King 607 franken horn and love, love, love it.
The 3508 is also a great horn. I have a 3508Y bell on my King 607 franken horn and love, love, love it.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]
Re: smooth slide: Yes absolutely…except I have no way of knowing which has the better slide as they’re from two different sellers in different parts of the country! Trusting that they’re both wonderful slides, as both sellers are professionals themselves. And trusting that my buddy Pat Gullotta will be able to make either slide silky smooth :D
Re: 3B vs Williams in an amusement park: I hope I didn’t say anywhere that I’d value a 3B any less. In all ways I’d protect and care for it just as I do my rare horns. But I think you understand: once the Williams is gone…it’s gone.
I may end up valuing the 3B just as much as, or more than, the Williams. But if the 3B gets damaged, there are good odds that I can find another one just as good.
Rarity aside, the Williams IS my primary axe. I’ve used it on almost every single gig I’ve had for the past ten years because I love how it plays! It would be a shame to lose my favorite, primary horn. Whether it were a Williams or a pawn shop King 606 I’d want to protect mah baby! :lol:[/quote]
Oh yeah! Like I said, I understand completely - a Williams is special. I'm sure you've played 3Bs before, so you probably already know that they are special in their own way. Since you have a good slide tech and the source is already good, yeah, go for the 60's one.
If you can ... get that lacquer stripped, too. Especially if you decide you like it after playing it for a while. I had my SS stripped recently and the thing is even more magical now. The fact that those horns play well in spite of that thick lacquer is something.
Respect! Good luck at Disney and I hope you love the horn you get!
Re: smooth slide: Yes absolutely…except I have no way of knowing which has the better slide as they’re from two different sellers in different parts of the country! Trusting that they’re both wonderful slides, as both sellers are professionals themselves. And trusting that my buddy Pat Gullotta will be able to make either slide silky smooth :D
Re: 3B vs Williams in an amusement park: I hope I didn’t say anywhere that I’d value a 3B any less. In all ways I’d protect and care for it just as I do my rare horns. But I think you understand: once the Williams is gone…it’s gone.
I may end up valuing the 3B just as much as, or more than, the Williams. But if the 3B gets damaged, there are good odds that I can find another one just as good.
Rarity aside, the Williams IS my primary axe. I’ve used it on almost every single gig I’ve had for the past ten years because I love how it plays! It would be a shame to lose my favorite, primary horn. Whether it were a Williams or a pawn shop King 606 I’d want to protect mah baby! :lol:[/quote]
Oh yeah! Like I said, I understand completely - a Williams is special. I'm sure you've played 3Bs before, so you probably already know that they are special in their own way. Since you have a good slide tech and the source is already good, yeah, go for the 60's one.
If you can ... get that lacquer stripped, too. Especially if you decide you like it after playing it for a while. I had my SS stripped recently and the thing is even more magical now. The fact that those horns play well in spite of that thick lacquer is something.
Respect! Good luck at Disney and I hope you love the horn you get!
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]It's ok, I can count on one hand how many people actually answered the question that I asked in this post :lol: Appreciate learning something new about who's making what trombone-wise in the world![/quote]
It's a TromboneChat tradition - there's almost no topic that we won't divert into tangents - or even completely unrelated territory.
Enjoy your 3B - and thanks for initiating an interesting (if off-topic) discussion.
It's a TromboneChat tradition - there's almost no topic that we won't divert into tangents - or even completely unrelated territory.
Enjoy your 3B - and thanks for initiating an interesting (if off-topic) discussion.
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Since the Yamaha small bores have been brought up, I find that they're pretty polarizing. I personally can't stand the 891Z or 897Z, with or without screw bell. And I've tried quite a few!
The older models (651, 653, etc.) might be a different story, and I'd love to try them. But I find that in general, most players like a small King. The staggering amount of pros that use them says something...but then again, plenty of pros use the Xenos too. So what do I know? :lol:
The older models (651, 653, etc.) might be a different story, and I'd love to try them. But I find that in general, most players like a small King. The staggering amount of pros that use them says something...but then again, plenty of pros use the Xenos too. So what do I know? :lol:
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]
If I were a Williams player and I wanted another 500 bore kinda close, I'd start with something kinda like a Williams. My impression of Williams is that they are heavy horns.
The 3B really isn't like that at all - it's relatively bright and light. It's got a bit of a cult following recently around here, and turns up as the answer to every question. They're fine horns, but at the risk of overthinking things, I think there are better instruments available.
Heavy is going to be Lawler, maybe Edwards or Shires or the Courtois 402. Schilke/Greenhoe or the Schmelzer mentioned might be a great option. Or if you're looking for a more available, affordable horn, maybe an Olds, say a Studio or Recording. Or in Conns a 30h has a great sound, and of course the 48h is fairly heavy with a nice malleable sound.
Personally, of all these, I'd pick either the Schilke/Greenhoe or 48h.
If you really don't mind a lighter horn, I'd pick a Getzen 3508 over the 3B any day. Of course it doesn't have an F attachment.[/quote]
Ah ok! Thank you for this insight.
I'm embarrassed to say, I have actually never played a 3B before that I can recall. For a variety of reasons I have not attended ITF or other conventions, nor do I often get to do "hangs" or "jams" with individuals to try horns, uh...also for a variety of reasons. The only times I've gotten to try horns is during high school band festivals, or when happened to be in the area of Dillon Music, Brass Exchange, etc.
I've also never had a lot of money, so the only horns owned in my life have been a King 606, a Getzen 1047 Eterna, a Bach 42A, the Minick small bore and the Williams small bore. Umm...quality over quantity? :?
I'll keep your suggestions in mind for sure. At some point would love to actually get to try some of these before having to lay down everything in my bank account just to find out I've now got to sell a trombone :p Ultimately I'm very satisfied with my Williams and will be glad for anything that extends the life of that or gives me a similar playing experience.
If I were a Williams player and I wanted another 500 bore kinda close, I'd start with something kinda like a Williams. My impression of Williams is that they are heavy horns.
The 3B really isn't like that at all - it's relatively bright and light. It's got a bit of a cult following recently around here, and turns up as the answer to every question. They're fine horns, but at the risk of overthinking things, I think there are better instruments available.
Heavy is going to be Lawler, maybe Edwards or Shires or the Courtois 402. Schilke/Greenhoe or the Schmelzer mentioned might be a great option. Or if you're looking for a more available, affordable horn, maybe an Olds, say a Studio or Recording. Or in Conns a 30h has a great sound, and of course the 48h is fairly heavy with a nice malleable sound.
Personally, of all these, I'd pick either the Schilke/Greenhoe or 48h.
If you really don't mind a lighter horn, I'd pick a Getzen 3508 over the 3B any day. Of course it doesn't have an F attachment.[/quote]
Ah ok! Thank you for this insight.
I'm embarrassed to say, I have actually never played a 3B before that I can recall. For a variety of reasons I have not attended ITF or other conventions, nor do I often get to do "hangs" or "jams" with individuals to try horns, uh...also for a variety of reasons. The only times I've gotten to try horns is during high school band festivals, or when happened to be in the area of Dillon Music, Brass Exchange, etc.
I've also never had a lot of money, so the only horns owned in my life have been a King 606, a Getzen 1047 Eterna, a Bach 42A, the Minick small bore and the Williams small bore. Umm...quality over quantity? :?
I'll keep your suggestions in mind for sure. At some point would love to actually get to try some of these before having to lay down everything in my bank account just to find out I've now got to sell a trombone :p Ultimately I'm very satisfied with my Williams and will be glad for anything that extends the life of that or gives me a similar playing experience.
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Finetales"]Since the Yamaha small bores have been brought up, I find that they're pretty polarizing. I personally can't stand the 891Z or 897Z, with or without screw bell. And I've tried quite a few!
The older models (651, 653, etc.) might be a different story, and I'd love to try them. But I find that in general, most players like a small King. The staggering amount of pros that use them says something...but then again, plenty of pros use the Xenos too. So what do I know? :lol:[/quote]
Having been around for the Conn 88H craze, I don't put much stock into "everyone else is doing it so it must be good" :tongue:
The fact that a lot of folks use the 3B or the 88H or whatever else imo certainly speaks for the overall quality/playability of those instruments.
But does it say anything about whether that model is a good fit for ME? Probably not!
Anyway, fun to think about!
The older models (651, 653, etc.) might be a different story, and I'd love to try them. But I find that in general, most players like a small King. The staggering amount of pros that use them says something...but then again, plenty of pros use the Xenos too. So what do I know? :lol:[/quote]
Having been around for the Conn 88H craze, I don't put much stock into "everyone else is doing it so it must be good" :tongue:
The fact that a lot of folks use the 3B or the 88H or whatever else imo certainly speaks for the overall quality/playability of those instruments.
But does it say anything about whether that model is a good fit for ME? Probably not!
Anyway, fun to think about!
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]Having been around for the Conn 88H craze, I don't put much stock into "everyone else is doing it so it must be good" :tongue:[/quote]
The "Conn 88H craze?" :idk:
If there was such a craze, it was from the late 1950s to the late 1970s - long before you were born, Megan. :amazed:
Notwithstanding the above, you make a good point, Megan (as has been shown repeatedly by the bickering on this forum). Different strokes, ...
You will not find any other trombone that plays/feels/sounds like a Williams 6. You're a lucky trombonist to have even played, much less owned one (or two). But I strongly recommend that you keep it away from Disney World (and similar high-risk gigs), and play a less-valuable, more-replaceable, but still high-quality trombone. The used market is full of them!
The "Conn 88H craze?" :idk:
If there was such a craze, it was from the late 1950s to the late 1970s - long before you were born, Megan. :amazed:
The fact that a lot of folks use the 3B or the 88H or whatever else imo certainly speaks for the overall quality/playability of those instruments.
But does it say anything about whether that model is a good fit for ME? Probably not!
Notwithstanding the above, you make a good point, Megan (as has been shown repeatedly by the bickering on this forum). Different strokes, ...
You will not find any other trombone that plays/feels/sounds like a Williams 6. You're a lucky trombonist to have even played, much less owned one (or two). But I strongly recommend that you keep it away from Disney World (and similar high-risk gigs), and play a less-valuable, more-replaceable, but still high-quality trombone. The used market is full of them!
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Jhereg" post_id="246500" time="1719516973" user_id="3030">
Having been around for the Conn 88H craze, I don't put much stock into "everyone else is doing it so it must be good" :tongue:[/quote]
The "Conn 88H craze?" :idk:
If there was such a craze, it was from the late 1950s to the late 1970s - long before you were born, Megan. :amazed:
Notwithstanding the above, you make a good point, Megan (as has been shown repeatedly by the bickering on this forum). Different strokes, ...
You will not find any other trombone that plays/feels/sounds like a Williams 6. You're a lucky trombonist to have even played, much less owned one (or two). But I strongly recommend that you keep it away from Disney World (and similar high-risk gigs), and play a less-valuable, more-replaceable, but still high-quality trombone. The used market is full of them!
</QUOTE>
When I was in high school and participating in those band/orchestra County, District, Regional, State competitions, the Conn 88H was what everyone either had or wanted. The number of kids walking around with the Christian Lindburg model that mommy and daddy had bought them--with that huge rotor, I wonder if they still make that!--and the ridiculous sweatband-looking thing too! I don't recall what it was but you were supposed to put it on your bell stem and it would somehow magically transform you into a skilled musician :lol: It was legit a sweatband with "Christian Lindberg" embroidered on it. Kids who couldn't afford a new 88H were buying the sweatbands so they could look cool I guess. It was DEFINITELY a thing.
Meanwhile I went to All-State and played The Firebird Suite on a rental King 606 :lol: Now that I think about it it's no wonder everyone thought I cheated to get there.
You are so right about the Williams, and I don't wanna find an equivalent (other than to potentially protect/provide parts for the one I do have.) Exactly what I came here to ask about was two "less-valuable, more-replaceable, but still high-quality trombones." Thaaaaat's what this whole post was for. Lots of great recs, so I will look into as many as I can and/or keep this on file :good:
Having been around for the Conn 88H craze, I don't put much stock into "everyone else is doing it so it must be good" :tongue:[/quote]
The "Conn 88H craze?" :idk:
If there was such a craze, it was from the late 1950s to the late 1970s - long before you were born, Megan. :amazed:
The fact that a lot of folks use the 3B or the 88H or whatever else imo certainly speaks for the overall quality/playability of those instruments.
But does it say anything about whether that model is a good fit for ME? Probably not!
Notwithstanding the above, you make a good point, Megan (as has been shown repeatedly by the bickering on this forum). Different strokes, ...
You will not find any other trombone that plays/feels/sounds like a Williams 6. You're a lucky trombonist to have even played, much less owned one (or two). But I strongly recommend that you keep it away from Disney World (and similar high-risk gigs), and play a less-valuable, more-replaceable, but still high-quality trombone. The used market is full of them!
</QUOTE>
When I was in high school and participating in those band/orchestra County, District, Regional, State competitions, the Conn 88H was what everyone either had or wanted. The number of kids walking around with the Christian Lindburg model that mommy and daddy had bought them--with that huge rotor, I wonder if they still make that!--and the ridiculous sweatband-looking thing too! I don't recall what it was but you were supposed to put it on your bell stem and it would somehow magically transform you into a skilled musician :lol: It was legit a sweatband with "Christian Lindberg" embroidered on it. Kids who couldn't afford a new 88H were buying the sweatbands so they could look cool I guess. It was DEFINITELY a thing.
Meanwhile I went to All-State and played The Firebird Suite on a rental King 606 :lol: Now that I think about it it's no wonder everyone thought I cheated to get there.
You are so right about the Williams, and I don't wanna find an equivalent (other than to potentially protect/provide parts for the one I do have.) Exactly what I came here to ask about was two "less-valuable, more-replaceable, but still high-quality trombones." Thaaaaat's what this whole post was for. Lots of great recs, so I will look into as many as I can and/or keep this on file :good:
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Jhereg"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="246516" time="1719523428" user_id="158">
The "Conn 88H craze?" :idk:
If there was such a craze, it was from the late 1950s to the late 1970s - long before you were born, Megan.[/quote]
When I was in high school and participating in those band/orchestra County, District, Regional, State competitions, the Conn 88H was what everyone either had or wanted. The number of kids walking around with the Christian Lindburg model that mommy and daddy had bought them--with that huge rotor, I wonder if they still make that!--
</QUOTE>
My apologies, Megan. I completely missed the second (rebound?) Conn 88H "craze" (1990s?). I guess that happened during my ~25-year hiatus from trombone playing. You've convinced me that it was real. Never even heard about the "sweatbands." :horror:
By the way, they still make the Conn 88H CL (Christian Lindberg model). I have one, with its "huge rotor" (which works very well, thank you), acquired (used) in 2012, and enjoy playing it. Works better than my classic 88H.
The "Conn 88H craze?" :idk:
If there was such a craze, it was from the late 1950s to the late 1970s - long before you were born, Megan.[/quote]
When I was in high school and participating in those band/orchestra County, District, Regional, State competitions, the Conn 88H was what everyone either had or wanted. The number of kids walking around with the Christian Lindburg model that mommy and daddy had bought them--with that huge rotor, I wonder if they still make that!--
</QUOTE>
My apologies, Megan. I completely missed the second (rebound?) Conn 88H "craze" (1990s?). I guess that happened during my ~25-year hiatus from trombone playing. You've convinced me that it was real. Never even heard about the "sweatbands." :horror:
By the way, they still make the Conn 88H CL (Christian Lindberg model). I have one, with its "huge rotor" (which works very well, thank you), acquired (used) in 2012, and enjoy playing it. Works better than my classic 88H.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The sweatbands are sick, yo. Don't knock it 'til you tried it loool. <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="Jhereg" post_id="246530" time="1719534146" user_id="3030">
When I was in high school and participating in those band/orchestra County, District, Regional, State competitions, the Conn 88H was what everyone either had or wanted. The number of kids walking around with the Christian Lindburg model that mommy and daddy had bought them--with that huge rotor, I wonder if they still make that!--[/quote]
My apologies, Megan. I completely missed the second (rebound?) Conn 88H "craze" (1990s?). I guess that happened during my ~25-year hiatus from trombone playing. You've convinced me that it was real. Never even heard about the "sweatbands." :horror:
By the way, they still make the Conn 88H CL (Christian Lindberg model). I have one, with its "huge rotor" (which works very well, thank you), acquired (used) in 2012, and enjoy playing it. Works better than my classic 88H.
</QUOTE>
Oh no need to apologize! You caught the initial craze it sounds like, and I think the 90s-2000s one that I experienced was the release of the Christian Lindberg model. We can't help what we were around for. It's cool that you have a CL 88H...no shade on the rotor, I just remember that it was larger than any other I'd seen.
I WILL throw shade about those sweatbands though :lol:
Apparently they were called "resistance balancers."
I guess some of them had metal pieces inside? Still. C'mon.
When I was in high school and participating in those band/orchestra County, District, Regional, State competitions, the Conn 88H was what everyone either had or wanted. The number of kids walking around with the Christian Lindburg model that mommy and daddy had bought them--with that huge rotor, I wonder if they still make that!--[/quote]
My apologies, Megan. I completely missed the second (rebound?) Conn 88H "craze" (1990s?). I guess that happened during my ~25-year hiatus from trombone playing. You've convinced me that it was real. Never even heard about the "sweatbands." :horror:
By the way, they still make the Conn 88H CL (Christian Lindberg model). I have one, with its "huge rotor" (which works very well, thank you), acquired (used) in 2012, and enjoy playing it. Works better than my classic 88H.
</QUOTE>
Oh no need to apologize! You caught the initial craze it sounds like, and I think the 90s-2000s one that I experienced was the release of the Christian Lindberg model. We can't help what we were around for. It's cool that you have a CL 88H...no shade on the rotor, I just remember that it was larger than any other I'd seen.
I WILL throw shade about those sweatbands though :lol:
Apparently they were called "resistance balancers."
I guess some of them had metal pieces inside? Still. C'mon.
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]The sweatbands are sick, yo. Don't knock it 'til you tried it loool. <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>[/quote]
Haha well! Maybe they are good in some way :) but I think at the age/skill level where they were being hyped at the time I encountered them, most kids would not have known exactly what to look for in how this item would impact their sound, or whether it was an "improvement" over the stock sound of their instrument. I had forgotten about these tbh. Fun memories!
Haha well! Maybe they are good in some way :) but I think at the age/skill level where they were being hyped at the time I encountered them, most kids would not have known exactly what to look for in how this item would impact their sound, or whether it was an "improvement" over the stock sound of their instrument. I had forgotten about these tbh. Fun memories!
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
There definitely seems to be a regional aspect to what is described here, and it also seems to differ pretty wildly from what age you are (high school vs college vs the orchestral world). In the "pro orchestra world" the 90s was definitely punctuated by fairly heavy bells and large slides. In the 00s as a student, I almost exclusively saw Yamahas. Nobody that I'm aware of in the state I'm in had a Conn, at least in the various All-State, Honor Band, etc. It was ALL either Yamaha or maybe Bach. In my college experience, I played a Yamaha at first (then a Bach... then later a Shires). One person had a Conn 88. Everyone else was on Greenhoe, Shires, or Edwards, at least for classical.
I did do two summers at Interlochen back in... I think 2007 and on the Jazz side we were all on Kings (I had a beautiful 3B...GSX? whatever the sterling model was). Bass bone player was on a Getzen both years. But the classical side I think I saw a smattering of everything considered professional. Which makes sense, there were people from all over the place there.
And don't knock the resistance balancers until you try them!! :lol: Actually only half joking, they do make lighter bells hold up a little under loud dynamics... if that's what you want. The one pictured also has two slots for small brass weights for maximum impact!
I did do two summers at Interlochen back in... I think 2007 and on the Jazz side we were all on Kings (I had a beautiful 3B...GSX? whatever the sterling model was). Bass bone player was on a Getzen both years. But the classical side I think I saw a smattering of everything considered professional. Which makes sense, there were people from all over the place there.
And don't knock the resistance balancers until you try them!! :lol: Actually only half joking, they do make lighter bells hold up a little under loud dynamics... if that's what you want. The one pictured also has two slots for small brass weights for maximum impact!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I saw Lindberg do a double concerto where he came out and played alongside the principal trombone for a piece. He mopped the floor with the poor guy. He was obviously trying to really help the guy out and (since he had the piece memorized) was giving lots of visual cues and trying to interact with the other guy. Poor unnamed dude's lip went about halfway through the piece...
I don't want to say it was completely because he had the sweatband on that he sounded so present and good, but Lindberg definitely had his sweatband on. Maybe 95% of the reason. <EMOJI seq="1f606" tseq="1f606">😆</EMOJI>
The image of Richard Simmons coming out to do a workout with the P90X guy and proceeding to smoke him by sweating to the oldies until he crumbles into a heap comes to mind. Sweatband and all.
Also, for real though -- that pic you posted of the sweatband -- you secretly just snapped that pic and are pretending like it isn't yours. Be honest :good:
I don't want to say it was completely because he had the sweatband on that he sounded so present and good, but Lindberg definitely had his sweatband on. Maybe 95% of the reason. <EMOJI seq="1f606" tseq="1f606">😆</EMOJI>
The image of Richard Simmons coming out to do a workout with the P90X guy and proceeding to smoke him by sweating to the oldies until he crumbles into a heap comes to mind. Sweatband and all.
Also, for real though -- that pic you posted of the sweatband -- you secretly just snapped that pic and are pretending like it isn't yours. Be honest :good:
- Jhereg
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Apr 10, 2018
[quote="Matt K"]There definitely seems to be a regional aspect to what is described here, and it also seems to differ pretty wildly from what age you are (high school vs college vs the orchestral world). In the "pro orchestra world" the 90s was definitely punctuated by fairly heavy bells and large slides. In the 00s as a student, I almost exclusively saw Yamahas. Nobody that I'm aware of in the state I'm in had a Conn, at least in the various All-State, Honor Band, etc. It was ALL either Yamaha or maybe Bach. In my college experience, I played a Yamaha at first (then a Bach... then later a Shires). One person had a Conn 88. Everyone else was on Greenhoe, Shires, or Edwards, at least for classical.
I did do two summers at Interlochen back in... I think 2007 and on the Jazz side we were all on Kings (I had a beautiful 3B...GSX? whatever the sterling model was). Bass bone player was on a Getzen both years. But the classical side I think I saw a smattering of everything considered professional. Which makes sense, there were people from all over the place there.
And don't knock the resistance balancers until you try them!! :lol: Actually only half joking, they do make lighter bells hold up a little under loud dynamics... if that's what you want. The one pictured also has two slots for small brass weights for maximum impact![/quote]
Agree, I'm from Pennsylvania and a very small town where music was not a priority. Did not see diversity (on a lot of levels) until I got to Regional Band, which is when kids from the actual large cities would be present. Few people in my County/District would have had a budget for, or access to, Greenhoe or Shires horns. The 88H was available and affordable + marketed very heavily from what I recall of the conventions and catalogues available.
Like I said in the previous comment(s), I'm sure the resistance bands had some benefits for someone out there. But young kids just learning to make good sounds maybe didn't know what to listen for when applying them, and very likely just bought them to look cool or like they knew what was up. I could be completely incorrect about that, just describing what I saw and experienced in person, there, at the time.
I did do two summers at Interlochen back in... I think 2007 and on the Jazz side we were all on Kings (I had a beautiful 3B...GSX? whatever the sterling model was). Bass bone player was on a Getzen both years. But the classical side I think I saw a smattering of everything considered professional. Which makes sense, there were people from all over the place there.
And don't knock the resistance balancers until you try them!! :lol: Actually only half joking, they do make lighter bells hold up a little under loud dynamics... if that's what you want. The one pictured also has two slots for small brass weights for maximum impact![/quote]
Agree, I'm from Pennsylvania and a very small town where music was not a priority. Did not see diversity (on a lot of levels) until I got to Regional Band, which is when kids from the actual large cities would be present. Few people in my County/District would have had a budget for, or access to, Greenhoe or Shires horns. The 88H was available and affordable + marketed very heavily from what I recall of the conventions and catalogues available.
Like I said in the previous comment(s), I'm sure the resistance bands had some benefits for someone out there. But young kids just learning to make good sounds maybe didn't know what to listen for when applying them, and very likely just bought them to look cool or like they knew what was up. I could be completely incorrect about that, just describing what I saw and experienced in person, there, at the time.