Study tactics; learning parts fast?! (And well)
- Wilco
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Mar 24, 2019
Hi, what are your strategies to learn hard parts fast and well?
I have a couple that I use:
- learning the part at a very slow tempo, memorizing bit by bit (Lindberg strategy)
- learning the part at tempo, doing the runs over and over again by adding one note at a time. So start with one note, then two, etc. Start at the begin, middle or end. Finally bring them all together
- change the rhythm (play it in swing style for instance)
What do you do? For the part below I decided to skip a few note here and there
I have a couple that I use:
- learning the part at a very slow tempo, memorizing bit by bit (Lindberg strategy)
- learning the part at tempo, doing the runs over and over again by adding one note at a time. So start with one note, then two, etc. Start at the begin, middle or end. Finally bring them all together
- change the rhythm (play it in swing style for instance)
What do you do? For the part below I decided to skip a few note here and there
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
That looks fun! :good:
If that is for an imminent performance, I would not bother with "slow it down". If I couldn't figure it out at tempo after a couple of tries, I'd know I'm in trouble and would need to simplify.
If that is for an imminent performance, I would not bother with "slow it down". If I couldn't figure it out at tempo after a couple of tries, I'd know I'm in trouble and would need to simplify.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I like to alternate between half tempo and actual tempo. I think that works better than the typical approach of speeding it up gradually.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
I would learn that part at a slower tempo and gradually speed it up. I would also look for groupings of notes. When playing pieces like that, there are usually sub-groupings that flow very naturally. Once those are figured out, the challenge is to link the groupings together.
The tempos on that piece don’t make sense. If the tempo is dotted quarter = 132, then it changes to quarter = 132, it should NOT state that the eighth note is constant…..because it is not.
The tempos on that piece don’t make sense. If the tempo is dotted quarter = 132, then it changes to quarter = 132, it should NOT state that the eighth note is constant…..because it is not.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I would put the piano part in midi, tempo map it in Reaper, and then play along with a click track until it was perfect.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="Doug Elliott"]I like to alternate between half tempo and actual tempo. I think that works better than the typical approach of speeding it up gradually.[/quote]
This.
This.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
Analysis then practice
-in my head/voice first then on the horn
-rhythms first then pitch
-at as close to tempo or even above tempo if possible before taking slower passes at the bumpy bits
-in my head again, but imagining slide and articulation movements.
In the context of a casual rehearsal often it’s only possible to do the mental practice and it has to be done in a few moments.
With that in mind, I learn as much of the “tricky parts.” by playing tricky things in regular practice.
-in my head/voice first then on the horn
-rhythms first then pitch
-at as close to tempo or even above tempo if possible before taking slower passes at the bumpy bits
-in my head again, but imagining slide and articulation movements.
In the context of a casual rehearsal often it’s only possible to do the mental practice and it has to be done in a few moments.
With that in mind, I learn as much of the “tricky parts.” by playing tricky things in regular practice.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="VJOFan"]Analysis then practice
-in my head/voice first then on the horn
-rhythms first then pitch
-at as close to tempo or even above tempo if possible before taking slower passes at the bumpy bits
-in my head again, but imagining slide and articulation movements.
In the context of a casual rehearsal often it’s only possible to do the mental practice and it has to be done in a few moments.
With that in mind, I learn as much of the “tricky parts.” by playing tricky things in regular practice.[/quote]
I'm a huge advocate for positive mental vision as an exercise. It's a truth that you cannot do something until you can see yourself doing it, and that's true with playing too. We have to imagine ourselves just knocking it out of the park, and when we can slow down and really "see" that, and see what it looks like, sounds like, feels like, only then do we have a shot at accomplishing it. Positive imaging has tremendous good effects. When we get it into our unconscious mind, we can do it.
But negative imaging is also powerful, and causes us much unnecessary difficulty and failure when we teach our unconscious mind to project failure. That usually comes in the form of fear self-talk, like, "Oh, here it comes, I don't want to screw this up. Damn! I screwed it up!"
-in my head/voice first then on the horn
-rhythms first then pitch
-at as close to tempo or even above tempo if possible before taking slower passes at the bumpy bits
-in my head again, but imagining slide and articulation movements.
In the context of a casual rehearsal often it’s only possible to do the mental practice and it has to be done in a few moments.
With that in mind, I learn as much of the “tricky parts.” by playing tricky things in regular practice.[/quote]
I'm a huge advocate for positive mental vision as an exercise. It's a truth that you cannot do something until you can see yourself doing it, and that's true with playing too. We have to imagine ourselves just knocking it out of the park, and when we can slow down and really "see" that, and see what it looks like, sounds like, feels like, only then do we have a shot at accomplishing it. Positive imaging has tremendous good effects. When we get it into our unconscious mind, we can do it.
But negative imaging is also powerful, and causes us much unnecessary difficulty and failure when we teach our unconscious mind to project failure. That usually comes in the form of fear self-talk, like, "Oh, here it comes, I don't want to screw this up. Damn! I screwed it up!"
- Wilco
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Mar 24, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]I would put the piano part in midi, tempo map it in Reaper, and then play along with a click track until it was perfect.[/quote]
You can use playscore2 for that. Output in midi of ready a pdf in real time. You can alter the tempo as well! Forgot to mention that one <EMOJI seq="263a" tseq="263a">☺️</EMOJI>
You can use playscore2 for that. Output in midi of ready a pdf in real time. You can alter the tempo as well! Forgot to mention that one <EMOJI seq="263a" tseq="263a">☺️</EMOJI>
- Wilco
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Mar 24, 2019
Thanks all for sharing!! Some things to try. The music is a test piece for a contest in October. So there is time, but of course this is not the only tricky part <EMOJI seq="1f61d" tseq="1f61d">😝</EMOJI>. I think it also helps to try to blow through the notes, especially with all those jumps in it.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="Wilco"]Thanks all for sharing!! Some things to try. The music is a test piece for a contest in October. So there is time, but of course this is not the only tricky part <EMOJI seq="1f61d" tseq="1f61d">😝</EMOJI>. I think it also helps to try to blow through the notes, especially with all those jumps in it.[/quote]
Ah, OK. My comment above is from the context of having performed in pit orchestras for several local theaters, and there it's accepted that musicians are given one pass on sight-reading a show in the first rehearsal, then it has to be nailed. There just isn't time to help people rehearse the tricky parts of music because of everything else that has to happen to put a show together.
That said, I hadn't seen Doug's idea of specifically doing half-time as he described. I'll have to try more of that. I do get kind of annoyed at myself and at other musicians who do the "increment the tempo starting slow" method, because way too often it ends up with people learning the music at a wrong and slow tempo.
Ah, OK. My comment above is from the context of having performed in pit orchestras for several local theaters, and there it's accepted that musicians are given one pass on sight-reading a show in the first rehearsal, then it has to be nailed. There just isn't time to help people rehearse the tricky parts of music because of everything else that has to happen to put a show together.
That said, I hadn't seen Doug's idea of specifically doing half-time as he described. I'll have to try more of that. I do get kind of annoyed at myself and at other musicians who do the "increment the tempo starting slow" method, because way too often it ends up with people learning the music at a wrong and slow tempo.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
Agree with much written above (I also generally do at speed or much slower, and not gradually speeding up).
Also, skipping some notes, e.g. playing the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of each group of 4, then 1, 3, 4, then 1, 2, 4, then 2, 3, 4. This too slow, and fast.
Also, when I know a part well enough, but I want to get fast or tricky passages to another level, or if there's something that tends to be not 100% clean, I'll do it at tempo with playing elements isolated. Just slide. Just air flow. Just mouthpiece buzz. Just tonguing pattern. Often none of them have a problem on their own, but sometimes the buzz is not accurate with the size of the intervals, or the slide is not as fluid as I thought. Then I work on it.
If or once each of them is solid, I then put them back together 2 by 2 and 3 by 3. Slide plus air alone. Slide plus tongue alone. Mouthpiece buzz plus tongue. Slide plus buzz but without tongue. Usually this is where I find the problem, where two of the elements are not 100% in sync. Sometimes it's a cross-slide shift and tongue not lining up, sometimes it's the change of notes in the buzz not lining up with the slide, or with the tongue. I'll work on that, going back to step 1 if needed. Once every combination is sounding consistently clean, I'll play it again as is, and any problem is usually gone. The whole process usually takes 5 to 10 minutes and makes the passage immediately significantly better, and usually it's a durable improvement.
Also, skipping some notes, e.g. playing the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of each group of 4, then 1, 3, 4, then 1, 2, 4, then 2, 3, 4. This too slow, and fast.
Also, when I know a part well enough, but I want to get fast or tricky passages to another level, or if there's something that tends to be not 100% clean, I'll do it at tempo with playing elements isolated. Just slide. Just air flow. Just mouthpiece buzz. Just tonguing pattern. Often none of them have a problem on their own, but sometimes the buzz is not accurate with the size of the intervals, or the slide is not as fluid as I thought. Then I work on it.
If or once each of them is solid, I then put them back together 2 by 2 and 3 by 3. Slide plus air alone. Slide plus tongue alone. Mouthpiece buzz plus tongue. Slide plus buzz but without tongue. Usually this is where I find the problem, where two of the elements are not 100% in sync. Sometimes it's a cross-slide shift and tongue not lining up, sometimes it's the change of notes in the buzz not lining up with the slide, or with the tongue. I'll work on that, going back to step 1 if needed. Once every combination is sounding consistently clean, I'll play it again as is, and any problem is usually gone. The whole process usually takes 5 to 10 minutes and makes the passage immediately significantly better, and usually it's a durable improvement.
- jthomas105
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Apr 08, 2018
Something I have done for myself and used with many students with any kind of runs of 8ths or 16ths is double every note so that my articulation is at tempo but the reading order of the notes is half tempo. Basically play two notes for every note written at tempo. This works really well for any kind of intervals. Hope this makes sense.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="jthomas105"]Something I have done for myself and used with many students with any kind of runs of 8ths or 16ths is double every note so that my articulation is at tempo but the reading order of the notes is half tempo. Basically play two notes for every note written at tempo. This works really well for any kind of intervals. Hope this makes sense.[/quote]
I have never heard of this technique, but seems like a good idea for straight 8ths or 16ths. Sounds like it would be tough or counterproductive for mixed meter, maybe.
I have never heard of this technique, but seems like a good idea for straight 8ths or 16ths. Sounds like it would be tough or counterproductive for mixed meter, maybe.
- Enelson
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Mar 26, 2018
If I receive music ahead of time and find tricky phrases, I will play slowly, but also try to leave the printed page as quickly as possible. I find that connecting my ears to what I play helps me learn much faster (with much better retention) than trying to reproduce what is printed. When reading the music at the gig, I am triggering muscle memory for difficult passages more than reading.
I have also noticed that playing in the upper register is much less taxing if I am playing by memory/ear than reading. The more ledger lines, the more stress and bigger chance that I will misread notes. A little off-topic, but playing in the upper register is also somewhat easier for me just by reading tenor clef.
I have also noticed that playing in the upper register is much less taxing if I am playing by memory/ear than reading. The more ledger lines, the more stress and bigger chance that I will misread notes. A little off-topic, but playing in the upper register is also somewhat easier for me just by reading tenor clef.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="Enelson"]
I have also noticed that playing in the upper register is much less taxing if I am playing by memory/ear than reading. The more ledger lines, the more stress and bigger chance that I will misread notes. A little off-topic, but playing in the upper register is also somewhat easier for me just by reading tenor clef.[/quote]
You're sharing my soapbox. I advocate writing all trombone music on the piano great staff. Most of what we do is that treble high F or lower, and I know what note I'm supposed to be on.
It can confuse you if you have to read Bb treble occasionally.
I have also noticed that playing in the upper register is much less taxing if I am playing by memory/ear than reading. The more ledger lines, the more stress and bigger chance that I will misread notes. A little off-topic, but playing in the upper register is also somewhat easier for me just by reading tenor clef.[/quote]
You're sharing my soapbox. I advocate writing all trombone music on the piano great staff. Most of what we do is that treble high F or lower, and I know what note I'm supposed to be on.
It can confuse you if you have to read Bb treble occasionally.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
The “half tempo and jump to whole tempo” technique is an interesting idea. I heard about this about 20 years ago and tried it for a few years and it worked on many things. I think it is based on establishing very secure muscle memory and then seeing if the muscle memory sticks.
I think I stopped using that method because it did not work for me on euphonium. I remember doing some euph gigs that were technically demanding and the only strategy that worked was starting slow and working the tempo higher gradually……all while using the metronome. I am firm believer in documenting my progress with numbers. Something like this…..Tuesday, July 2nd: 144= target tempo, 128=all comfortable, 136=measures 13, 14 and 21 are rough. If I can move the numbers up on any day, it shows progress.
I think I stopped using that method because it did not work for me on euphonium. I remember doing some euph gigs that were technically demanding and the only strategy that worked was starting slow and working the tempo higher gradually……all while using the metronome. I am firm believer in documenting my progress with numbers. Something like this…..Tuesday, July 2nd: 144= target tempo, 128=all comfortable, 136=measures 13, 14 and 21 are rough. If I can move the numbers up on any day, it shows progress.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The way I have used it is not "jump to whole tempo." It's the opposite:
It's more about "at tempo" (or the fastest tempo you CAN play it), and half of that. So that you use half speed to refine the motions that are awkward at tempo.
I think that allows you to quickly get comfortable at fast tempos.
An extreme version of that that I've also used successfully is to include double tempo, to .play faster than you thought possible. I learned that playing gallops at the circus. Tempo of One, one, one, one, one...
That also improves reading speed, which is often the real thing holding back the ability to play fast. Learning to keep your eyes moving.
It's more about "at tempo" (or the fastest tempo you CAN play it), and half of that. So that you use half speed to refine the motions that are awkward at tempo.
I think that allows you to quickly get comfortable at fast tempos.
An extreme version of that that I've also used successfully is to include double tempo, to .play faster than you thought possible. I learned that playing gallops at the circus. Tempo of One, one, one, one, one...
That also improves reading speed, which is often the real thing holding back the ability to play fast. Learning to keep your eyes moving.
- andesl10
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Nov 06, 2023
I like practicing difficult licks backwards, at tempo. This video helped me a lot: <YOUTUBE id="f9X4h-cY1uw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9X4h-cY1uw</YOUTUBE>
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="jthomas105"]Something I have done for myself and used with many students with any kind of runs of 8ths or 16ths is double every note so that my articulation is at tempo but the reading order of the notes is half tempo. Basically play two notes for every note written at tempo. This works really well for any kind of intervals. Hope this makes sense.[/quote]
A similar idea:
A. Take a string of 8ths or 16ths
B. For each group of four 8ths or 16ths, turn it into a 3/8 measure or other multiple of 3. For example, for a full bar of 16ths in 4/4 time, turn the bar into 12/8.
C. For each group of 16ths, convert it to:
1) 8-8-16-16, then
2) 8-16-16-8, then
3) 16-16-8-8
While keeping the 16ths in the desired tempo.
A similar idea:
A. Take a string of 8ths or 16ths
B. For each group of four 8ths or 16ths, turn it into a 3/8 measure or other multiple of 3. For example, for a full bar of 16ths in 4/4 time, turn the bar into 12/8.
C. For each group of 16ths, convert it to:
1) 8-8-16-16, then
2) 8-16-16-8, then
3) 16-16-8-8
While keeping the 16ths in the desired tempo.
- eyezayam
- Posts: 1
- Joined: May 18, 2024
I find a methodical gradual tempo increase to work best for me as such:
Pick a phrase or chunk and play it as either whole, half or quarter notes at 60 bpm depending on difficulty. If it’s comfortable and perfect, go up a click. Once you hit 120 drop back to 60 and start the process over except double values, so half notes become quarters or wholes to halves etc.
Hope this idea helps
Pick a phrase or chunk and play it as either whole, half or quarter notes at 60 bpm depending on difficulty. If it’s comfortable and perfect, go up a click. Once you hit 120 drop back to 60 and start the process over except double values, so half notes become quarters or wholes to halves etc.
Hope this idea helps