Alessi and Friedman discussing new model
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
<ATTACHMENT filename="20240706_211413.jpg" index="0">[attachment=0]20240706_211413.jpg</ATTACHMENT>
Joseph Alessi and Jay Friedman test and discuss a prototype of the latter's new model, while instrument maker Miles O'Malley observes.
Unlike most artist models on the market, which are often composed of various ready-made parts, this one has been developed from scratch by Jay Friedman and Miles O'Malley in collaboration with Noah Gladstone at BrassArk.
According to Jay Friedman, the goal of this unique project is to "duplicate the best qualities of the best Mt Vernon Bachs, which are super responsive [...] hopefully they will duplicate the old sound that is not available anymore from the current companies." Jay Friedman is the master of orchestral trombone sound, and he will personally test each trombone. I'm guessing this project is very special to Jay, because this responsive quality is something he has repeatedly expressed that he has missed in modern horns.
Everything is hand made in-house by the extremely dedicated and uncompromising youngster O'Malley and his enthusiastic team, and all metal is sourced from the USA.
In general I find the specs close to Mt Vernon's. The thin bell has the same taper, a French flat rim, the leadpipe is a copy, the closed wrap is balanced by an .562” F attachment bore. The valve was designed by O'Malley, based on the original Berni Marston rotary valve used on the Mt Vernon Bach's. However, I understand that O'Malley likes to be more careful when heating the bell during the hammering than usual, and perhaps that will give the horn his personal touch. And it comes with an open neckpipe.
I myself have ordered a gold/nickel version of this instrument, and cannot wait to receive it.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orches ... y-pricing/">https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orchestra-tenor-introductory-pricing/</LINK_TEXT>
Joseph Alessi and Jay Friedman test and discuss a prototype of the latter's new model, while instrument maker Miles O'Malley observes.
Unlike most artist models on the market, which are often composed of various ready-made parts, this one has been developed from scratch by Jay Friedman and Miles O'Malley in collaboration with Noah Gladstone at BrassArk.
According to Jay Friedman, the goal of this unique project is to "duplicate the best qualities of the best Mt Vernon Bachs, which are super responsive [...] hopefully they will duplicate the old sound that is not available anymore from the current companies." Jay Friedman is the master of orchestral trombone sound, and he will personally test each trombone. I'm guessing this project is very special to Jay, because this responsive quality is something he has repeatedly expressed that he has missed in modern horns.
Everything is hand made in-house by the extremely dedicated and uncompromising youngster O'Malley and his enthusiastic team, and all metal is sourced from the USA.
In general I find the specs close to Mt Vernon's. The thin bell has the same taper, a French flat rim, the leadpipe is a copy, the closed wrap is balanced by an .562” F attachment bore. The valve was designed by O'Malley, based on the original Berni Marston rotary valve used on the Mt Vernon Bach's. However, I understand that O'Malley likes to be more careful when heating the bell during the hammering than usual, and perhaps that will give the horn his personal touch. And it comes with an open neckpipe.
I myself have ordered a gold/nickel version of this instrument, and cannot wait to receive it.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orches ... y-pricing/">https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orchestra-tenor-introductory-pricing/</LINK_TEXT>
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The proof will be in the pudding. For a model made in 2024, there are some odd choices they made with the design.
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]The proof will be in the pudding. For a model made in 2024, there are some odd choices they made with the design.[/quote]
Thanks for the comment. It should be possible to get a taste test of the pudding at BrassArk.
The world is flooded with 2024 models. It is not the goal to make another such model. As I indicate above, the goal here is rather to recreate qualities that have been lost throughout history. For example, thin bell pieces are difficult to work with and do not fit well into industrial production, but play absolutely fantastic when produced by skilled craftsmen. At the same time, I believe that today's demands in other areas are met. The valve is fantastic, it is as it needs to be to give it the desired responsive character combined with an open feel, and closed wrap in this case is nothing to worry about. Speaking of which, I can mention that I recently tried a closed wrap made by M&W. It played wonderfully open.
Thanks for the comment. It should be possible to get a taste test of the pudding at BrassArk.
The world is flooded with 2024 models. It is not the goal to make another such model. As I indicate above, the goal here is rather to recreate qualities that have been lost throughout history. For example, thin bell pieces are difficult to work with and do not fit well into industrial production, but play absolutely fantastic when produced by skilled craftsmen. At the same time, I believe that today's demands in other areas are met. The valve is fantastic, it is as it needs to be to give it the desired responsive character combined with an open feel, and closed wrap in this case is nothing to worry about. Speaking of which, I can mention that I recently tried a closed wrap made by M&W. It played wonderfully open.
- ngrinder
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
When I contacted Steve Shires to make me a small bore Bach style bell, he recommended Miles, as Steve only had tooling to make a large bore flare. I can think of no better endorsement!
Miles is a great bell maker-he's made a few flares for me that are very good, but I still prefer my vintage Bachs. I'm sure with feedback from these great musicians, his craft will only improve.
Miles is a great bell maker-he's made a few flares for me that are very good, but I still prefer my vintage Bachs. I'm sure with feedback from these great musicians, his craft will only improve.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
Miles will be big. The growth of his shop over the past year is very impressive.
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Congrats on the New Horn. I think that it`s incredible that Jay Freidman is still looking for a better horn!
I`d love to try one but don`t see that happening anytime soon.
I`d love to try one but don`t see that happening anytime soon.
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="ngrinder"]When I contacted Steve Shires to make me a small bore Bach style bell, he recommended Miles, as Steve only had tooling to make a large bore flare. I can think of no better endorsement!
Miles is a great bell maker-he's made a few flares for me that are very good, but I still prefer my vintage Bachs. I'm sure with feedback from these great musicians, his craft will only improve.[/quote]
Thank you for sharing this information. Miles appears to me as a geek in the positive sense of the word, who dreams about his craft and in the morning can't wait to get to the workshop to try out his new ideas. It is as if one could imagine the new Stephen Shires or Vincent Bach.
Miles is a great bell maker-he's made a few flares for me that are very good, but I still prefer my vintage Bachs. I'm sure with feedback from these great musicians, his craft will only improve.[/quote]
Thank you for sharing this information. Miles appears to me as a geek in the positive sense of the word, who dreams about his craft and in the morning can't wait to get to the workshop to try out his new ideas. It is as if one could imagine the new Stephen Shires or Vincent Bach.
- BassBoneWaluigi
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Nov 24, 2022
Looks awesome! Is Jay Friedman going to perform on this model or just assisting with development?
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="dukesboneman"]Congrats on the New Horn. I think that it`s incredible that Jay Freidman is still looking for a better horn!
I`d love to try one but don`t see that happening anytime soon.[/quote]
Thank you! My impression is that Mr. Friedman has an incredible depth of knowledge in certain areas. Two examples are articulation and legato. Another is instruments. While many artist models seem a bit more random built, based more on individual taste, Friedman seems very conscious of how a horn should be and why.
I`d love to try one but don`t see that happening anytime soon.[/quote]
Thank you! My impression is that Mr. Friedman has an incredible depth of knowledge in certain areas. Two examples are articulation and legato. Another is instruments. While many artist models seem a bit more random built, based more on individual taste, Friedman seems very conscious of how a horn should be and why.
- Elow
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Mar 02, 2020
[quote="Tomnormann"]While many artist models seem a bit more random built, based more on individual taste, Friedman seems very conscious of how a horn should be and why.[/quote]
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Friedman designed a bunch of other weird horns with .562 slides, etc. I'm with Elow.
This one is slightly more normal for him, compared to the other horns I've heard about him using.
This one is slightly more normal for him, compared to the other horns I've heard about him using.
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="Tomnormann" post_id="247925" time="1721068514" user_id="16850">
While many artist models seem a bit more random built, based more on individual taste, Friedman seems very conscious of how a horn should be and why.[/quote]
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.
</QUOTE>
The thin gold bell and the light nickel slide help characterize the typical Chicago Symphony sound. Myself love the combination of warmt and brilliance as well as the responsiveness. But as mentioned, for many it is a matter of taste, and you can just as easily order this model in yellow brass. Otherwise, I agree with you that Shire's trombones are superb, given that you are thinking of Stephen Shire's own handmade horns from Stephens Brass Instruments (https://www.stephenshorns.com/trombones). The Eastman S.E. Shires I don't find beeing at the same level of craftmanship as Miles and Stephen.
While many artist models seem a bit more random built, based more on individual taste, Friedman seems very conscious of how a horn should be and why.[/quote]
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.
</QUOTE>
The thin gold bell and the light nickel slide help characterize the typical Chicago Symphony sound. Myself love the combination of warmt and brilliance as well as the responsiveness. But as mentioned, for many it is a matter of taste, and you can just as easily order this model in yellow brass. Otherwise, I agree with you that Shire's trombones are superb, given that you are thinking of Stephen Shire's own handmade horns from Stephens Brass Instruments (https://www.stephenshorns.com/trombones). The Eastman S.E. Shires I don't find beeing at the same level of craftmanship as Miles and Stephen.
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]Friedman designed a bunch of other weird horns with .562 slides, etc. I'm with Elow.
This one is slightly more normal for him, compared to the other horns I've heard about him using.[/quote]
I see your point, but the bass slide is normally optional. They don't promote bass slide in this case, but maybe you can have it if you want. He himself swears by bass trombone slide in nickel because he finds it the most free-blowing. It does not affect the sound as he has a very centered airstream. This concept is probably a function of the conditions in which the CSO plays, and is not relevant for everyone. Me myself play tenor slide and will continue to do so, including this horn from O'Malley.
PS: Remember Friedman has had Thein reconstructed an old Kruspe model himself consulting. Nothing weird about that.
This one is slightly more normal for him, compared to the other horns I've heard about him using.[/quote]
I see your point, but the bass slide is normally optional. They don't promote bass slide in this case, but maybe you can have it if you want. He himself swears by bass trombone slide in nickel because he finds it the most free-blowing. It does not affect the sound as he has a very centered airstream. This concept is probably a function of the conditions in which the CSO plays, and is not relevant for everyone. Me myself play tenor slide and will continue to do so, including this horn from O'Malley.
PS: Remember Friedman has had Thein reconstructed an old Kruspe model himself consulting. Nothing weird about that.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="Elow"]<QUOTE author="Tomnormann" post_id="247925" time="1721068514" user_id="16850">
While many artist models seem a bit more random built, based more on individual taste, Friedman seems very conscious of how a horn should be and why.[/quote]
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.
</QUOTE>
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?
While many artist models seem a bit more random built, based more on individual taste, Friedman seems very conscious of how a horn should be and why.[/quote]
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.
</QUOTE>
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="247930" time="1721071148" user_id="8680">
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.[/quote]
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?
</QUOTE>
No, as I explain above. Myself ordered tenor slide. The prototype is with tenor slide. It's just other contributers here that repeats this topic, which I don’t find spesificly relevant for this model or my posting.
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.[/quote]
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?
</QUOTE>
No, as I explain above. Myself ordered tenor slide. The prototype is with tenor slide. It's just other contributers here that repeats this topic, which I don’t find spesificly relevant for this model or my posting.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="247930" time="1721071148" user_id="8680">
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.[/quote]
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?
</QUOTE>
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES!
Hmm, not sure I agree. Friedman plays on some unique gear. I feel like the Shires/Edwards Alessi is more in line of what a symphonic tenor should be. The thin gold bell and lightweight nickel slide is more of an acquired taste, imo.[/quote]
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?
</QUOTE>
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES!
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="247945" time="1721077725" user_id="2999">
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?[/quote]
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES!
</QUOTE>
The more You practice Your long Tones ,the better You will be to recognize the difference in gear.. The sound You make should be important enough that You always choose Your equipment with the utmost care.. The problem with beeing a gearhead is when You think the instrument will do the job for You.
About using bass slides on tenor.. I decided to Try a Bach 50 lightweight slide on a 42G and a/b test it against the 42 lightweight that came with the Horn.. The difference in sound and blow was surprisingly small.. I had no issues with the 50 slide beeing to much work (maybe because I have practised my long tones<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>), but i actually found that the 42 slide had a bit more color dynamically and had a more interesting sound..But with a very small margin..
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?[/quote]
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES!
</QUOTE>
The more You practice Your long Tones ,the better You will be to recognize the difference in gear.. The sound You make should be important enough that You always choose Your equipment with the utmost care.. The problem with beeing a gearhead is when You think the instrument will do the job for You.
About using bass slides on tenor.. I decided to Try a Bach 50 lightweight slide on a 42G and a/b test it against the 42 lightweight that came with the Horn.. The difference in sound and blow was surprisingly small.. I had no issues with the 50 slide beeing to much work (maybe because I have practised my long tones<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>), but i actually found that the 42 slide had a bit more color dynamically and had a more interesting sound..But with a very small margin..
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="Tbarh"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="247951" time="1721079153" user_id="7231">
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES![/quote]
The more You practice Your long Tones ,the better You will be to recognize the difference in gear.. The sound You make should be important enough that You always choose Your equipment with the utmost care.. The problem with beeing a gearhead is when You think the instrument will do the job for You.
About using bass slides on tenor.. I decided to Try a Bach 50 lightweight slide on a 42G and a/b test it against the 42 lightweight that came with the Horn.. The difference in sound and blow was surprisingly small.. I had no issues with the 50 slide beeing to much work (maybe because I have practised my long tones<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>), but i actually found that the 42 slide had a bit more color dynamically and had a more interesting sound..But with a very small margin..
</QUOTE>
Ok, but maybe we can leave the bass slide discussion there? I find it off topic since the horn in question comes with a tenor slide, just have a look: <LINK_TEXT text="https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orches ... y-pricing/">https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orchestra-tenor-introductory-pricing/</LINK_TEXT>
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES![/quote]
The more You practice Your long Tones ,the better You will be to recognize the difference in gear.. The sound You make should be important enough that You always choose Your equipment with the utmost care.. The problem with beeing a gearhead is when You think the instrument will do the job for You.
About using bass slides on tenor.. I decided to Try a Bach 50 lightweight slide on a 42G and a/b test it against the 42 lightweight that came with the Horn.. The difference in sound and blow was surprisingly small.. I had no issues with the 50 slide beeing to much work (maybe because I have practised my long tones<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>), but i actually found that the 42 slide had a bit more color dynamically and had a more interesting sound..But with a very small margin..
</QUOTE>
Ok, but maybe we can leave the bass slide discussion there? I find it off topic since the horn in question comes with a tenor slide, just have a look: <LINK_TEXT text="https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orches ... y-pricing/">https://brassark.com/maker_horns/orchestra-tenor-introductory-pricing/</LINK_TEXT>
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Kdanielsen"]<QUOTE author="Bach5G" post_id="247945" time="1721077725" user_id="2999">
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?[/quote]
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES!
</QUOTE>
You know that's not entirely true, especially for a pro who will have the thing on their face half the day. This horn is meant for someone like that, obviously.
We can ditch the talk about the bass slide, for sure. This horn doesn't have one looks like. But the closed wrap is a strange choice. Semi-open wrap drains moisture better and allows for the 90⁰ ports.
French bread vs unsoldered. That will also polarize people.
Light weight nickel .562 slide no? Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea?[/quote]
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES!
</QUOTE>
You know that's not entirely true, especially for a pro who will have the thing on their face half the day. This horn is meant for someone like that, obviously.
We can ditch the talk about the bass slide, for sure. This horn doesn't have one looks like. But the closed wrap is a strange choice. Semi-open wrap drains moisture better and allows for the 90⁰ ports.
French bread vs unsoldered. That will also polarize people.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
$5000 doesn’t sound like very much money for this horn. ‘Introductory’ pricing, it says.
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="247951" time="1721079153" user_id="7231">
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES![/quote]
French bread vs unsoldered. That will also polarize people.
</QUOTE>
Certain politicians polarize people, hopefully a rim does not. The flat rim is not unique to this project, Stephen Shires uses it and Bach does it on their A47. The effect is that it makes the horn more responsive to articulation without sacrificing the ability to play with high dynamics.
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES![/quote]
French bread vs unsoldered. That will also polarize people.
</QUOTE>
Certain politicians polarize people, hopefully a rim does not. The flat rim is not unique to this project, Stephen Shires uses it and Bach does it on their A47. The effect is that it makes the horn more responsive to articulation without sacrificing the ability to play with high dynamics.
- trombonedemon
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Aug 06, 2018
Whatever those two pick out will surely make a nice horn. It's the fact that they are together doing this that's special.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="Kdanielsen" post_id="247951" time="1721079153" user_id="7231">
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES![/quote]
You know that's not entirely true, especially for a pro who will have the thing on their face half the day. This horn is meant for someone like that, obviously.
We can ditch the talk about the bass slide, for sure. This horn doesn't have one looks like. But the closed wrap is a strange choice. Semi-open wrap drains moisture better and allows for the 90⁰ ports.
French bread vs unsoldered. That will also polarize people.
</QUOTE>
The closed wrap can be great when designed properly. I'm guessing that has been done in this case. Matthew Walker makes a closed wrap version that I hear plays wonderfully. Sometimes we just don't need a wind tunnel to blow through.
Surely it makes zero difference. LONG TONES![/quote]
You know that's not entirely true, especially for a pro who will have the thing on their face half the day. This horn is meant for someone like that, obviously.
We can ditch the talk about the bass slide, for sure. This horn doesn't have one looks like. But the closed wrap is a strange choice. Semi-open wrap drains moisture better and allows for the 90⁰ ports.
French bread vs unsoldered. That will also polarize people.
</QUOTE>
The closed wrap can be great when designed properly. I'm guessing that has been done in this case. Matthew Walker makes a closed wrap version that I hear plays wonderfully. Sometimes we just don't need a wind tunnel to blow through.
- Kdanielsen
- Posts: 609
- Joined: Jul 28, 2019
I jest. Sometimes I can’t control myself when someone jumps on an equipment thread just to say “Longtones.”
It all makes a difference. I take the rubber nub off my horns. I’d love to try what ever JF cooks up.
It all makes a difference. I take the rubber nub off my horns. I’d love to try what ever JF cooks up.
- Tomnormann
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Jul 23, 2023
[quote="WGWTR180"][quote=harrisonreed post_id=247964
The closed wrap can be great when designed properly. I'm guessing that has been done in this case. Matthew Walker makes a closed wrap version that I hear plays wonderfully. Sometimes we just don't need a wind tunnel to blow through.[/quote]
Exactly. I have tried one of Matthew Walker's closed wrap trombones, a Conn Elkhart inspired as such. I can't imagine anyone trying it on blindfolded would guess it was not an open wrap.
The closed wrap can be great when designed properly. I'm guessing that has been done in this case. Matthew Walker makes a closed wrap version that I hear plays wonderfully. Sometimes we just don't need a wind tunnel to blow through.[/quote]
Exactly. I have tried one of Matthew Walker's closed wrap trombones, a Conn Elkhart inspired as such. I can't imagine anyone trying it on blindfolded would guess it was not an open wrap.