Alto Trombone Substitutes
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Before you start typing, I know perfectly well that alto trombone is unique and a tenor won't do the same thing. I also happen to enjoy playing alto and am not at all trying to "replace" alto trombones. This is just for fun.
For a long time, the alto trombone was essentially banished from southern California. Got a high part? Use a small tenor. Alto is still pretty rare here, but nowadays local choral societies and such like to do the annual Mozart Requiem with alto trombone, so there are a few opportunities at least. But as the resident "Is Fluent In Alto Clef" of my trombone friend group, when we do reading hangs I get handed the alto parts. Since I don't currently own an alto (nor would I bother bringing it if I did), I've learned that some tenor trombones are better at covering alto parts than others. Obviously you want to use a small tenor - no sense beating your face up with a large bore if you can help it.
But some small tenors can pretend to be an alto trombone better than others. A good Elkhart 6H is pretty great at it, and I'd imagine the smaller Bachs would be too. On the other hand, while my 3B does it well enough, it wouldn't be my first choice in that role.
So, if you had to pretend to be playing alto trombone on a small tenor, playing delicately with a small and colorful sound up to high F, which one would you pick?
For a long time, the alto trombone was essentially banished from southern California. Got a high part? Use a small tenor. Alto is still pretty rare here, but nowadays local choral societies and such like to do the annual Mozart Requiem with alto trombone, so there are a few opportunities at least. But as the resident "Is Fluent In Alto Clef" of my trombone friend group, when we do reading hangs I get handed the alto parts. Since I don't currently own an alto (nor would I bother bringing it if I did), I've learned that some tenor trombones are better at covering alto parts than others. Obviously you want to use a small tenor - no sense beating your face up with a large bore if you can help it.
But some small tenors can pretend to be an alto trombone better than others. A good Elkhart 6H is pretty great at it, and I'd imagine the smaller Bachs would be too. On the other hand, while my 3B does it well enough, it wouldn't be my first choice in that role.
So, if you had to pretend to be playing alto trombone on a small tenor, playing delicately with a small and colorful sound up to high F, which one would you pick?
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I've used an Olds Super on sone alto rep (schumann 3 and brahms 1) and it was a lovely color
- modelerdc
- Posts: 352
- Joined: May 03, 2018
A small Bach works well. But mouthpiece selection is even more critical, using a mouthpiece similar to what would work on alto trombone or for playing lead, just play in legit style. A lot depends on the rest of the section. Too often when the first uses an alto the second plays the usual large bore tenor. Of course good players can make this work, but if the first is an alto or small bore it helps it the rest of the section scales down too. BTW for third part, for me it works better to use a modern bass trombone, but a mouthpiece of traditional size, such as a 1/2G works better than a large bore tenor on third.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
There was a symphony player around here who used her 2B rather than alto. I haven't run into her in a while. She was a very tasteful player, I imagine she made it sound good.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I would guess nearly any small bore (0.480"-0.500"; 12.2-12.7 mm) could substitute for an alto. Again quoting Howard Weiner, alto parts were often played on small bore Bb instruments in 19th Century Vienna.
- Digidog
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
Besides the obvious trait of tuning, I wonder where the line is drawn between a really small tenor horn and an alto.
I mean: A small tenor trombone can easily play comfortably and sound appropriately in the alto range, whereas an alto cannot do the reversed, so there should be something besides semantics to distinguish them and their use.
I always bring an alto if requested, and I definitely think the alto trombone has a use. If I were to play an alto part on a tenor horn, I'd choose a Bach 12, a Conn 4H or maybe, in a stretch, a 2BSS.
I mean: A small tenor trombone can easily play comfortably and sound appropriately in the alto range, whereas an alto cannot do the reversed, so there should be something besides semantics to distinguish them and their use.
I always bring an alto if requested, and I definitely think the alto trombone has a use. If I were to play an alto part on a tenor horn, I'd choose a Bach 12, a Conn 4H or maybe, in a stretch, a 2BSS.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
When I had my Mt. Vernon Bach 9 (yes! 9, it's a 485/500), I used it for that purpose a few times before I acquired a Conn 36H (both of which I still kick myself to this day for selling :lol: ). Bachs seem to work fairly well due to the smaller profile of the bell and tuning slide. I have a Rudy Muck that's also a 485/500 now that I've never used it for that purpose but I could see using it for that for the same reason. IIRC there's actually not much of a difference in many of the parts between a Bach 39 and the small bore tenors, save for the bore size of the inner/outer slides.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
[quote="Matt K"]IIRC there's actually not much of a difference in any of the parts between a Bach 36 and the small bore tenors[/quote]
FWIW you are not R'ing C
But, yes, you'd want really good slots above the 10th partial, so a 6 or 8 (or 9!) would be ideal. For the same reasons, maybe not a 2B. 24H would play well but the color might not blend into a larger section as well as the Bachs.
FWIW you are not R'ing C
But, yes, you'd want really good slots above the 10th partial, so a 6 or 8 (or 9!) would be ideal. For the same reasons, maybe not a 2B. 24H would play well but the color might not blend into a larger section as well as the Bachs.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
The times I played Mozart Requiem I did it on a Bach 39 alto but in Mendelsohn for example where an alto could be used I instead choose my Bach 6 mod VII.
/Tom
/Tom
- Aznguyy
- Posts: 664
- Joined: May 01, 2018
I've used a King 2B with a Schilke 40B mouthpiece for the handful of first part "alto" gigs I got called for(not that I didn't have an alto, it was stolen out of my friend's car and I didn't really want to buy another one).
It worked out and blended nicely with the 2nd player on a large bore and 3rd on a typical bass.
It worked out and blended nicely with the 2nd player on a large bore and 3rd on a typical bass.
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="BGuttman"]I would guess nearly any small bore (0.480"-0.500"; 12.2-12.7 mm) could substitute for an alto. Again quoting Howard Weiner, alto parts were often played on small bore Bb instruments in 19th Century Vienna.[/quote]
After around 1830, those would have been valve trombones. Before that, we're talking really small: .430" bore and 4⅝" bell, and the tenor and bass parts would have been played on the same size instrument too. So it's maybe not really super relevant as to what would work today.
After around 1830, those would have been valve trombones. Before that, we're talking really small: .430" bore and 4⅝" bell, and the tenor and bass parts would have been played on the same size instrument too. So it's maybe not really super relevant as to what would work today.
- timbone
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Apr 30, 2018
The way I look at this is like SATB in a choir. The tenor singing the alto part is a different timbre than an alto singing and alto part. It's not whether you can play the notes. I have been told by European trombone players that the alto should sit on top of tenors and not blend. Anyone?
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I've played in a section with a MV Bach 8 on top for some Romantic repertoire in a small orchestra - Schubert and Brahms specifically. The same player played alto for Mozart and some choral pieces, but it was a similar vibe. And my Conn 70H worked great on the bottom of the section.
- Mamaposaune
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sep 22, 2018
I've used an Olds from the late 1920's, the one with the bear engraved on the bell and tuning-in-the-slide, with a Bach NY 18 mouthpiece on the rare occasion that I've had to play the alto part in a classical orchestra while accompanying a choir.
- Digidog
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Dec 13, 2018
[quote="timbone"]The way I look at this is like SATB in a choir. The tenor singing the alto part is a different timbre than an alto singing and alto part. It's not whether you can play the notes. I have been told by European trombone players that the alto should sit on top of tenors and not blend. Anyone?[/quote]
This is what I always have been told; by teachers, conductors or band leaders. This is also what I believe the use of an Alto trombone should be, and it is the reason for me to have an Alto. It is also the reason I can see for a composer to write for a trombone section with an Alto on top; voicing, timbre and separation of lines.
This thread is for those who don't own, or can't read and play, Alto trombone, and what could be used as a cover-up.
If the piece I'm asked to play has an Alto trombone part in the score, a dedicated alto part in the section and I'm asked to bring an Alto - I always bring an Alto.
This is what I always have been told; by teachers, conductors or band leaders. This is also what I believe the use of an Alto trombone should be, and it is the reason for me to have an Alto. It is also the reason I can see for a composer to write for a trombone section with an Alto on top; voicing, timbre and separation of lines.
This thread is for those who don't own, or can't read and play, Alto trombone, and what could be used as a cover-up.
If the piece I'm asked to play has an Alto trombone part in the score, a dedicated alto part in the section and I'm asked to bring an Alto - I always bring an Alto.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
Swedish maker, Lars Gerdt is making a Trombone tuned in C with G valve..Could be a viable choice,maybe !?<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Tbarh"]Swedish maker, Lars Gerdt is making a Trombone tuned in C with G valve..Could be a viable choice,maybe !?<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]
I have play-tested that horn when he created it. It is a good horn with tuning in slide like all other trombones he makes but I wouldn't choose it as a substitute for an alto if you want an alto-like sound. An old C trombone like the Conn 60h on the other hand could be a good replace for an alto because of the smaller bore size, but you need to find one in good condition.
/Tom
I have play-tested that horn when he created it. It is a good horn with tuning in slide like all other trombones he makes but I wouldn't choose it as a substitute for an alto if you want an alto-like sound. An old C trombone like the Conn 60h on the other hand could be a good replace for an alto because of the smaller bore size, but you need to find one in good condition.
/Tom
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I‘d go with my circa. 1910-1920 King 7“ bell section which was modified by a previous owner to fit with a modern K&H small-bore slide. It sounds lighter than my 36h but has a hard-to-describe soul to the sound that I think would be fun to try in a section on alto parts.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I’ve used my .525 for an alto part mainly because I didn’t want to schlep 2 horns.
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="Tbarh" post_id="251423" time="1724394902" user_id="3637">
Swedish maker, Lars Gerdt is making a Trombone tuned in C with G valve..Could be a viable choice,maybe !?<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]
I have play-tested that horn when he created it. It is a good horn with tuning in slide like all other trombones he makes but I wouldn't choose it as a substitute for an alto if you want an alto-like sound. An old C trombone like the Conn 60h on the other hand could be a good replace for an alto because of the smaller bore size, but you need to find one in good condition.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Do You know if This C trombone have the same dimensions as the small bore Bb version. ?
I think that if You can «transpose» properly a C trombone could tick a lot of boxes.. I suppose that Darren Acosta (Who worked with him in the design) are also using it regularly..
Swedish maker, Lars Gerdt is making a Trombone tuned in C with G valve..Could be a viable choice,maybe !?<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]
I have play-tested that horn when he created it. It is a good horn with tuning in slide like all other trombones he makes but I wouldn't choose it as a substitute for an alto if you want an alto-like sound. An old C trombone like the Conn 60h on the other hand could be a good replace for an alto because of the smaller bore size, but you need to find one in good condition.
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Do You know if This C trombone have the same dimensions as the small bore Bb version. ?
I think that if You can «transpose» properly a C trombone could tick a lot of boxes.. I suppose that Darren Acosta (Who worked with him in the design) are also using it regularly..
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Tbarh"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="251449" time="1724425603" user_id="3173">
I have play-tested that horn when he created it. It is a good horn with tuning in slide like all other trombones he makes but I wouldn't choose it as a substitute for an alto if you want an alto-like sound. An old C trombone like the Conn 60h on the other hand could be a good replace for an alto because of the smaller bore size, but you need to find one in good condition.
/Tom[/quote]
Do You know if This C trombone have the same dimensions as the small bore Bb version. ?
I think that if You can «transpose» properly a C trombone could tick a lot of boxes.. I suppose that Darren Acosta (Who worked with him in the design) are also using it regularly..
</QUOTE>
Yes, Darren was the customer for that horn. I didn't ask about the boresize at the time Lars asked me to test it, but I assume it is a .500 bore like all the other small bore Gerdt mod 216 Bb TIS horns he made at the same time. He made 9 mod 216 small bore tenors in a batch that summer. I choose to buy two from that batch, the ones with serial numbers 3 and 5, and I asked him to put a G valve on one of them. Two of the others were bought by my friends. I do not know if he sold any of the remaining five trombones. He had three on stands last time I visited his shop, one of them had a screwbell. The C-trombone felt like a .500, so I'm pretty sure it is and I'm sure he had told me if it was another bore size.
/Tom
I have play-tested that horn when he created it. It is a good horn with tuning in slide like all other trombones he makes but I wouldn't choose it as a substitute for an alto if you want an alto-like sound. An old C trombone like the Conn 60h on the other hand could be a good replace for an alto because of the smaller bore size, but you need to find one in good condition.
/Tom[/quote]
Do You know if This C trombone have the same dimensions as the small bore Bb version. ?
I think that if You can «transpose» properly a C trombone could tick a lot of boxes.. I suppose that Darren Acosta (Who worked with him in the design) are also using it regularly..
</QUOTE>
Yes, Darren was the customer for that horn. I didn't ask about the boresize at the time Lars asked me to test it, but I assume it is a .500 bore like all the other small bore Gerdt mod 216 Bb TIS horns he made at the same time. He made 9 mod 216 small bore tenors in a batch that summer. I choose to buy two from that batch, the ones with serial numbers 3 and 5, and I asked him to put a G valve on one of them. Two of the others were bought by my friends. I do not know if he sold any of the remaining five trombones. He had three on stands last time I visited his shop, one of them had a screwbell. The C-trombone felt like a .500, so I'm pretty sure it is and I'm sure he had told me if it was another bore size.
/Tom
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
I think You are right about the boresize (says so in the website).. How is it different (sound) than the regular small bore Bb ?<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="Tbarh"]I think You are right about the boresize (says so in the website).. How is it different (sound) than the regular small bore Bb ?<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>[/quote]
Well, I played it for about 10 minutes in his shop in a small room behind the workshop because his show room was occupied by two tuba players who were testing tubas (rather loud) so the feedback in sound wasn't the best. It sounded like a small tenor to me but felt smaller. The high d pops out easier on that horn compared to any other horn and high eb, e and f is also easier as could be expected. It takes more than 10 minutes to get used to that shorter slide for me. Lars said Christian Libdberg had been in the shop the day before and played it. It sounded then as it had been with him all his life, but he wasn't interested to get one himself. I think the sound is like a small tenor, and the valve lowers the pitch a fourth. If I ask him to make me one I would ask for a C/A trombone with a extra slide for C/G. That would be a totally unique horn.. but I have no use for it.
/Tom
Well, I played it for about 10 minutes in his shop in a small room behind the workshop because his show room was occupied by two tuba players who were testing tubas (rather loud) so the feedback in sound wasn't the best. It sounded like a small tenor to me but felt smaller. The high d pops out easier on that horn compared to any other horn and high eb, e and f is also easier as could be expected. It takes more than 10 minutes to get used to that shorter slide for me. Lars said Christian Libdberg had been in the shop the day before and played it. It sounded then as it had been with him all his life, but he wasn't interested to get one himself. I think the sound is like a small tenor, and the valve lowers the pitch a fourth. If I ask him to make me one I would ask for a C/A trombone with a extra slide for C/G. That would be a totally unique horn.. but I have no use for it.
/Tom