trombone sound too "aggressive"?
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
Recently I got some feedback from my conductor and he said that my sound is to aggressive. This was really something new because I got criticised for many things over the years but never for my sound. Quite the opposite, people always liked my sound and said that it's a nice sound.
Just for reference, this is in a amateur wind band in Germany and the conductor (which is a really nice guy) is a professional oboe player which is quite new to the German wind band scene. I can see what he means with "aggressive", but for me it's just a typical "trombone sound". It mostly happens when I play very loud parts like e.g.. the bass soli in a traditional German march. It frequently happens that I am the only trombone player in this orchestra and I try to fill in the volume for a whole trombone section because the rest of the orchestra can play very loud as well. And I don't want the trombone to be overpowered completely, and I can play very loud (: Of course I don't play loud all the time, just when I think it's needed.
Sometimes he says the same thing to the trumpets and clarinets but mostly he says it to me. I talked to him and said it's just the natural colour of trombone at louder dynamics but he still didn't like it. Of course I don't want to be "too" loud either so I specifically asked the conductor if it is to loud and he said no. Just the sound is too aggressive, he now reported this multiple times to me but I really don't know what to do about it.
I tried to play less loud and then he did not complain but I think then the trombone just can't be heard trough all the other loud stuff. Maybe it's about the articulation? Some kind of music like the marches I mentioned often requires some very sharp articulation, but maybe it's too sharp? Or is it the equipment? I play a shires pro select with a silver plated bell and a joseph klier jk exclusive 6CL but that's my main setup for a very long time now.
For reference here is a piece we play where this happens frequently. I think this professional recording sounds also a little "aggressive" in some parts. <YOUTUBE id="h9nyF0Buhe8">https://youtu.be/h9nyF0Buhe8</YOUTUBE>
Just for reference, this is in a amateur wind band in Germany and the conductor (which is a really nice guy) is a professional oboe player which is quite new to the German wind band scene. I can see what he means with "aggressive", but for me it's just a typical "trombone sound". It mostly happens when I play very loud parts like e.g.. the bass soli in a traditional German march. It frequently happens that I am the only trombone player in this orchestra and I try to fill in the volume for a whole trombone section because the rest of the orchestra can play very loud as well. And I don't want the trombone to be overpowered completely, and I can play very loud (: Of course I don't play loud all the time, just when I think it's needed.
Sometimes he says the same thing to the trumpets and clarinets but mostly he says it to me. I talked to him and said it's just the natural colour of trombone at louder dynamics but he still didn't like it. Of course I don't want to be "too" loud either so I specifically asked the conductor if it is to loud and he said no. Just the sound is too aggressive, he now reported this multiple times to me but I really don't know what to do about it.
I tried to play less loud and then he did not complain but I think then the trombone just can't be heard trough all the other loud stuff. Maybe it's about the articulation? Some kind of music like the marches I mentioned often requires some very sharp articulation, but maybe it's too sharp? Or is it the equipment? I play a shires pro select with a silver plated bell and a joseph klier jk exclusive 6CL but that's my main setup for a very long time now.
For reference here is a piece we play where this happens frequently. I think this professional recording sounds also a little "aggressive" in some parts. <YOUTUBE id="h9nyF0Buhe8">https://youtu.be/h9nyF0Buhe8</YOUTUBE>
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I am reminded of the famous conductor of a symphony orchestra who started a rehearsal, raised his arms to start, and stopped saying "already the trombones are too loud". :idk:
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
“Aggressive sound” is a term that can be used to describe many different things. Maybe you should have a discussion with your conductor to figure out exactly what he hears in your playing.
Taking a look at your articulations might be something to start with. I conduct a college ensemble and I have had a few trombone players over the years that had extremely aggressive articulations. It was just something taught to them in their upbringing. Every time there was an accent in the music, they would articulate so hard that I almost expected shrapnel to come out of their bells.
I worked with these students to develop brick-shaped notes (starts at a particular volume, sustains at that same volume, and suddenly ends with no taper). One of the secrets to brick-shaped notes is to have a clean, precise beginning without punching it excessively. If you play a series of brick-shaped notes with the smallest amount (sometimes only a tenth of a second) of silence in between them, the notes actually sound accented. This is because clear notes juxtaposed to absolute silence create the audio illusion of accented notes, but doesn’t have the aggressive punch that many musicians use.
Taking a look at your articulations might be something to start with. I conduct a college ensemble and I have had a few trombone players over the years that had extremely aggressive articulations. It was just something taught to them in their upbringing. Every time there was an accent in the music, they would articulate so hard that I almost expected shrapnel to come out of their bells.
I worked with these students to develop brick-shaped notes (starts at a particular volume, sustains at that same volume, and suddenly ends with no taper). One of the secrets to brick-shaped notes is to have a clean, precise beginning without punching it excessively. If you play a series of brick-shaped notes with the smallest amount (sometimes only a tenth of a second) of silence in between them, the notes actually sound accented. This is because clear notes juxtaposed to absolute silence create the audio illusion of accented notes, but doesn’t have the aggressive punch that many musicians use.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Record a rehearsal from a distance in front and see if you can hear from the conductor's perspective what he's talking about.
Recording yourself is always a good idea. I have often changed my approach or interpretation or phrasing or articulation, because what came through was not what I thought I was doing.
Recording yourself is always a good idea. I have often changed my approach or interpretation or phrasing or articulation, because what came through was not what I thought I was doing.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
If you're trying to make up all the sound for a section by yourself, it probably is too loud.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
I tried figuring out what exactly the problem is but I had no success. He is a very nice guy and open for discussions but the problem is that he has another mother tongue than me and so detailed discussions are hard. Recently we discussed about another wind band we heard at an event and I found them to play not bad but extremely boring with no accents and dynamics, everything sounded the same for me without any differentiation between different styles of music. Interestingly he liked it more than me, despite he admitted that it's a little boring he liked the softer sound of the whole orchestra compared to our wind band. So maybe to strong articulations might be a problem. Often almost every note has an accent or a staccato in pieces like the one I linked above. So I think sharp articulations are required there but maybe I can experiment with just soften them up a little bit.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Record a rehearsal from a distance in front and see if you can hear from the conductor's perspective what he's talking about.
Recording yourself is always a good idea. I have often changed my approach or interpretation or phrasing or articulation, because what came through was not what I thought I was doing.[/quote]
[quote="Burgerbob"]If you're trying to make up all the sound for a section by yourself, it probably is too loud.[/quote]
I often heard recordings of this wind band with me playing the trombone and generally the trombone comes barely trough. If I play very loud of course the trombone can be heard but I don't think its too loud in general.
I think a problem we have is that our drummers play too loud in general and especially at the fortissimo parts which cranks really the volume up of the whole band because everyone needs to compete with the drummers. It's often too loud for my taste but really I don't want the trombone get buried under everything else so I need to play loud as well. I may hint the conductor in this direction.
Recording yourself is always a good idea. I have often changed my approach or interpretation or phrasing or articulation, because what came through was not what I thought I was doing.[/quote]
[quote="Burgerbob"]If you're trying to make up all the sound for a section by yourself, it probably is too loud.[/quote]
I often heard recordings of this wind band with me playing the trombone and generally the trombone comes barely trough. If I play very loud of course the trombone can be heard but I don't think its too loud in general.
I think a problem we have is that our drummers play too loud in general and especially at the fortissimo parts which cranks really the volume up of the whole band because everyone needs to compete with the drummers. It's often too loud for my taste but really I don't want the trombone get buried under everything else so I need to play loud as well. I may hint the conductor in this direction.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
There is a school of thought among some wind band conductors wherein nothing is ever supposed to stick out from the fabric of the band. It's all about "blend". I'm afraid your conductor may be one of those people. As far as I'm concerned, it's the musical equivalent of running a $100 (~€92) dinner through a blender. All of the individual flavors are lost.
That said, ramping it up to compensate for your section being shorthanded probably isn't a good idea. What should (IMHO) happen is that the rest of the band should notice the difference and compensate automatically. If that doesn't happen, the it's the conductor's job to fix the problem, not yours.
Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?
I've also played in bands where the importance of a given part is largely determined by how close the section is to the conductor. Even though the low brass has the melody, it's subordinate to whatever the front row (or front two rows, in a larger band) is playing. Hey, if that melody was important, it wouldn't be in the low brass, would it?
That said, ramping it up to compensate for your section being shorthanded probably isn't a good idea. What should (IMHO) happen is that the rest of the band should notice the difference and compensate automatically. If that doesn't happen, the it's the conductor's job to fix the problem, not yours.
Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?
I've also played in bands where the importance of a given part is largely determined by how close the section is to the conductor. Even though the low brass has the melody, it's subordinate to whatever the front row (or front two rows, in a larger band) is playing. Hey, if that melody was important, it wouldn't be in the low brass, would it?
- claf
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Oct 22, 2018
Don't try to compensate the lack of players in your section.
Firstly: 3 trombones playing a chord mf does not sound like a single trombone playing a single note f or ff.
Secondly: if the trombone part is to be heard above the rest, the conductor will notice if you're not heard and will ask for more.
Thirdly: don't participate to the "I need to play louder than my neighbor to be heard", there are already too many people doing that.
That's exactly what I'm doing in the symphony orchestra where I'm the single trumpet player: I could blow the orchestra out, but I'm not doing it for the sake of musicality and the flutists' hearing.
I'm keeping that for moments where it's really supposed to happen :twisted:
Firstly: 3 trombones playing a chord mf does not sound like a single trombone playing a single note f or ff.
Secondly: if the trombone part is to be heard above the rest, the conductor will notice if you're not heard and will ask for more.
Thirdly: don't participate to the "I need to play louder than my neighbor to be heard", there are already too many people doing that.
That's exactly what I'm doing in the symphony orchestra where I'm the single trumpet player: I could blow the orchestra out, but I'm not doing it for the sake of musicality and the flutists' hearing.
I'm keeping that for moments where it's really supposed to happen :twisted:
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
[quote="Nomsis"]
I often heard recordings of this wind band with me playing the trombone and generally the trombone comes barely trough. If I play very loud of course the trombone can be heard but I don't think its too loud in general.
I think a problem we have is that our drummers play too loud in general and especially at the fortissimo parts which cranks really the volume up of the whole band because everyone needs to compete with the drummers. It's often too loud for my taste but really I don't want the trombone get buried under everything else so I need to play loud as well. I may hint the conductor in this direction.[/quote]
This attitude puts people in a perpetual Cold War Arms Race with the rhythm section (and trumpets).
I often heard recordings of this wind band with me playing the trombone and generally the trombone comes barely trough. If I play very loud of course the trombone can be heard but I don't think its too loud in general.
I think a problem we have is that our drummers play too loud in general and especially at the fortissimo parts which cranks really the volume up of the whole band because everyone needs to compete with the drummers. It's often too loud for my taste but really I don't want the trombone get buried under everything else so I need to play loud as well. I may hint the conductor in this direction.[/quote]
This attitude puts people in a perpetual Cold War Arms Race with the rhythm section (and trumpets).
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Aggressive probably means either tongued too hard or too much edge. An oboist might not understand either well enough to ask for the right thing. A bigger bore trombone might help get more volume without edge. Be conscious of your articulations. Even intonation at high volume can get raucous.
There is a line as to how loud you can play without sounding bad. You might need help finding that line.
There is a line as to how loud you can play without sounding bad. You might need help finding that line.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="claf"]Don't try to compensate the lack of players in your section.
Firstly: 3 trombones playing a chord mf does not sound like a single trombone playing a single note f or ff.
Secondly: if the trombone part is to be heard above the rest, the conductor will notice if you're not heard and will ask for more.
Thirdly: don't participate to the "I need to play louder than my neighbor to be heard", there are already too many people doing that.
That's exactly what I'm doing in the symphony orchestra where I'm the single trumpet player: I could blow the orchestra out, but I'm not doing it for the sake of musicality and the flutists' hearing.
I'm keeping that for moments where it's really supposed to happen :twisted:[/quote]
Just to make it clear, I'm not talking about p or mf parts, I always play them very soft. I never got any complaints about those. I'm just talking about the ff parts where the trombone(s) have a soli, sometimes together with some other instruments. Those parts are often unisono anyway. If I'm playing those soft the conductor will not say anything because he usually says nothing to the trombones except that the sound is to aggressive. And to just say it again, he never said the trombone(s) is/are to loud!
Firstly: 3 trombones playing a chord mf does not sound like a single trombone playing a single note f or ff.
Secondly: if the trombone part is to be heard above the rest, the conductor will notice if you're not heard and will ask for more.
Thirdly: don't participate to the "I need to play louder than my neighbor to be heard", there are already too many people doing that.
That's exactly what I'm doing in the symphony orchestra where I'm the single trumpet player: I could blow the orchestra out, but I'm not doing it for the sake of musicality and the flutists' hearing.
I'm keeping that for moments where it's really supposed to happen :twisted:[/quote]
Just to make it clear, I'm not talking about p or mf parts, I always play them very soft. I never got any complaints about those. I'm just talking about the ff parts where the trombone(s) have a soli, sometimes together with some other instruments. Those parts are often unisono anyway. If I'm playing those soft the conductor will not say anything because he usually says nothing to the trombones except that the sound is to aggressive. And to just say it again, he never said the trombone(s) is/are to loud!
- sungfw
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Jul 17, 2018
[quote="Burgerbob"]If you're trying to make up all the sound for a section by yourself, it probably is too loud.[/quote]
This. :good:
This. :good:
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="JohnL"]Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?[/quote]
I would guess that this particular conductor will never ask Nomsis for more. At least, not before they develop a new sonic relationship.
I would guess that this particular conductor will never ask Nomsis for more. At least, not before they develop a new sonic relationship.
- MahlerMusic
- Posts: 158
- Joined: May 07, 2019
RECORD YOURSELF!!!
I did this years ago when I was wanting to switch to a larger mouthpiece as I felt I needed more volume. I was not liking the sound of the larger MP in the normal tenor range so I recorded myself with the smaller MP and I can clearly be heard on 2nd trombone with an 8H conn. Trombones have no problems vs a full orchestra.
Blurred for others privacy.
<YOUTUBE id="YsCBEKblIBk">https://youtu.be/YsCBEKblIBk?si=bVUeX99bKqa3pSdU</YOUTUBE>
I did this years ago when I was wanting to switch to a larger mouthpiece as I felt I needed more volume. I was not liking the sound of the larger MP in the normal tenor range so I recorded myself with the smaller MP and I can clearly be heard on 2nd trombone with an 8H conn. Trombones have no problems vs a full orchestra.
Blurred for others privacy.
<YOUTUBE id="YsCBEKblIBk">https://youtu.be/YsCBEKblIBk?si=bVUeX99bKqa3pSdU</YOUTUBE>
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="JohnL"]There is a school of thought among some wind band conductors wherein nothing is ever supposed to stick out from the fabric of the band. It's all about "blend". I'm afraid your conductor may be one of those people. As far as I'm concerned, it's the musical equivalent of running a $100 (~€92) dinner through a blender. All of the individual flavors are lost.
That said, ramping it up to compensate for your section being shorthanded probably isn't a good idea. What should (IMHO) happen is that the rest of the band should notice the difference and compensate automatically. If that doesn't happen, the it's the conductor's job to fix the problem, not yours.
Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?
I've also played in bands where the importance of a given part is largely determined by how close the section is to the conductor. Even though the low brass has the melody, it's subordinate to whatever the front row (or front two rows, in a larger band) is playing. Hey, if that melody was important, it wouldn't be in the low brass, would it?[/quote]
Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year. He just looses himself in details sometimes, e.g it might be we completely loose tempo and nothing goes together but the only thing he notices is the clarinets articulating something a little bit odd. Focus is more towards the wood section and trombone(s) usually don't receive any comments. Of course the band isn't always very supportive, if he says play this loud play this piano play this short or long often times nothing happens. Some people just come and play as they always did.
He sometimes comes to me and asks if everything was ok or whether I noticed anything that should be improved and I always try to be helpful without giving to much of my own musical opinion. And I try to be always as supportive as possible and try to understand what he wants and what the problem is, that's why I posted this question in the first place! No need for comments like I should do my own wind band!
That said, ramping it up to compensate for your section being shorthanded probably isn't a good idea. What should (IMHO) happen is that the rest of the band should notice the difference and compensate automatically. If that doesn't happen, the it's the conductor's job to fix the problem, not yours.
Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?
I've also played in bands where the importance of a given part is largely determined by how close the section is to the conductor. Even though the low brass has the melody, it's subordinate to whatever the front row (or front two rows, in a larger band) is playing. Hey, if that melody was important, it wouldn't be in the low brass, would it?[/quote]
Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year. He just looses himself in details sometimes, e.g it might be we completely loose tempo and nothing goes together but the only thing he notices is the clarinets articulating something a little bit odd. Focus is more towards the wood section and trombone(s) usually don't receive any comments. Of course the band isn't always very supportive, if he says play this loud play this piano play this short or long often times nothing happens. Some people just come and play as they always did.
He sometimes comes to me and asks if everything was ok or whether I noticed anything that should be improved and I always try to be helpful without giving to much of my own musical opinion. And I try to be always as supportive as possible and try to understand what he wants and what the problem is, that's why I posted this question in the first place! No need for comments like I should do my own wind band!
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Aggressive? That was a hard one. The trombone is sometimes needed for just that. I listned to the recording. What I heard is the trumpets sound more like big band trumpet players especially near the end. Not bad, but the articulation isn't quite in the idiom of a March (what I think). The trombones? When loud I think they need to cut trough like you do. Often the problem is there isn't enough edge. If this was me I would try to change mouthpiece or horn. I usually play a .525 in a wind band. If you already play a .547 then you could perhaps go for a deeper cup. Get something that change the balance. In my experience, even if your technique for loud playing is good there is a limit when the sound comes ouf as harsh and the balance will be too much of the high frequencies. In the orchestras where I play I never play beyond that. Maybe this orchestra needs loud trombones but then of course balanced trombones. With a deeper cup this could change. This is what I would try first.
/Tom
/Tom
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="imsevimse"]Aggressive? That was a hard one. The trombone is sometimes needed for just that. I listned to the recording. What I heard is the trumpets sound more like big band trumpet players especially near the end. Not bad, but the articulation isn't quite in the idiom of a March (what I think). The trombones? When loud I think they need to cut trough like you do. Often the problem is there isn't enough edge. If this was me I would try to change mouthpiece or horn. I usually play a .525 in a wind band. If you already play a .547 then you could perhaps go for a deeper cup. Get something that change the balance. In my experience, even if your technique for loud playing is good there is a limit when the sound comes ouf as harsh and the balance will be too much of the high frequencies. In the orchestras where I play I never play beyond that. Maybe this orchestra needs loud trombones but then of course balanced trombones. With a deeper cup this could change. This is what I would try first.
/Tom[/quote]
[quote="hyperbolica"]Aggressive probably means either tongued too hard or too much edge. An oboist might not understand either well enough to ask for the right thing.a bigger bore trombone might help get more volune without edge. Be conscious of your articulations. Even intonation at high volume can get raucous.
There is a line as to how loud you can play without sounding bad. You might need help finding that line.[/quote]
Thanks, these are the kind of comments I was looking for! Another trombone is not in question (because of money) but I might experiment with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece though this might get a bit tiring over time. Then I will pay special attention on the articulations the next time as well as not crossing the line between loud and to loud.
/Tom[/quote]
[quote="hyperbolica"]Aggressive probably means either tongued too hard or too much edge. An oboist might not understand either well enough to ask for the right thing.a bigger bore trombone might help get more volune without edge. Be conscious of your articulations. Even intonation at high volume can get raucous.
There is a line as to how loud you can play without sounding bad. You might need help finding that line.[/quote]
Thanks, these are the kind of comments I was looking for! Another trombone is not in question (because of money) but I might experiment with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece though this might get a bit tiring over time. Then I will pay special attention on the articulations the next time as well as not crossing the line between loud and to loud.
- MahlerMusic
- Posts: 158
- Joined: May 07, 2019
This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That clip is gross lolll!!
- TomWest
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Apr 04, 2023
Wait, you’ve got an oboe player conducting the band and he says that you’re too loud and aggressive.
Maybe he can’t hear the oboe…
Maybe he can’t hear the oboe…
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="MahlerMusic"]This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.[/quote]
Rather tepid audience response! :idk:
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.[/quote]
Rather tepid audience response! :idk:
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
If it's too aggressive but not too loud, then what I'm hearing from his comment is that he thinks your tone has too much brilliance and is not dark and round enough. This happens, to different degrees depending on our equipment, when we really lean on it. With some horns/mouthpieces, leaning on it takes away all the warmth and depth, and gives you a bright sound. My guess is that's what he's hearing.
OTOH, if this is the biggest problem with your amateur wind band and first-year conductor, then I'd say this band is in a great spot. Obviously, all the usual intonation and time problems inherent to amateur wind bands have been completely solved, and all he has left to do is to criticize the tone of his one trombone player trying to hold up what should be a full section. In which case, what a wonderful problem to have! Otherwise, if there are still pitch and time problems, perhaps he's focusing on one small problem he thinks he can solve, rather than the big systemic problems that are beyond resolution.
In other words, I think this is a seriously nit-picky complaint, considering all the problems amateur wind bands have, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe back off some or try a bigger mouthpiece, and if he's still not happy, then too bad for him. It's nice you're so conscientious about it, but I suspect this conductor actually has much bigger fish to fry.
Caveat: I'm saying this without listening to the recording because I'm sitting in a public place.
OTOH, if this is the biggest problem with your amateur wind band and first-year conductor, then I'd say this band is in a great spot. Obviously, all the usual intonation and time problems inherent to amateur wind bands have been completely solved, and all he has left to do is to criticize the tone of his one trombone player trying to hold up what should be a full section. In which case, what a wonderful problem to have! Otherwise, if there are still pitch and time problems, perhaps he's focusing on one small problem he thinks he can solve, rather than the big systemic problems that are beyond resolution.
In other words, I think this is a seriously nit-picky complaint, considering all the problems amateur wind bands have, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe back off some or try a bigger mouthpiece, and if he's still not happy, then too bad for him. It's nice you're so conscientious about it, but I suspect this conductor actually has much bigger fish to fry.
Caveat: I'm saying this without listening to the recording because I'm sitting in a public place.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Nomsis"]Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year.[/quote]
In that case, his frame of reference for wind band is probably informed by whatever experience he has had playing in such ensembles. You might want to ask him for his thoughts on blend and balance.
I'm afraid I have some difficulty engaging in a conversation along these lines without coming across as angry; it strikes far too close to home.
In that case, his frame of reference for wind band is probably informed by whatever experience he has had playing in such ensembles. You might want to ask him for his thoughts on blend and balance.
I'm afraid I have some difficulty engaging in a conversation along these lines without coming across as angry; it strikes far too close to home.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
[quote="MahlerMusic"]This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.[/quote]
I agree but mostly because as I've gotten older the less I've liked Wagner. I think the orchestra and the trombones captured very well the overblown pompous boring dirge that is Wagner's music.
I agree but mostly because as I've gotten older the less I've liked Wagner. I think the orchestra and the trombones captured very well the overblown pompous boring dirge that is Wagner's music.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Relating to the OP:
Be careful with intonation. Done well, trombones should be the absolute best instruments defining intonation in the ensemble. But intonation is hard. It's very easy to give the pitch a 5 to 10 cent bump when getting louder, and sometimes this is a desirable effect and sometimes not. The trickiest thing is that at small changes in pitch up to maybe 10 to 15 cents, a change in pitch is more often perceived as a change in color rather than the literal change in tuning.
Ears are weird.
But that is one reason why an instrument gets more "edge" and sticks out of an ensemble - it's not just the tambre or even the extremely relevant articulation.
Be careful with intonation. Done well, trombones should be the absolute best instruments defining intonation in the ensemble. But intonation is hard. It's very easy to give the pitch a 5 to 10 cent bump when getting louder, and sometimes this is a desirable effect and sometimes not. The trickiest thing is that at small changes in pitch up to maybe 10 to 15 cents, a change in pitch is more often perceived as a change in color rather than the literal change in tuning.
Ears are weird.
But that is one reason why an instrument gets more "edge" and sticks out of an ensemble - it's not just the tambre or even the extremely relevant articulation.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]If it's too aggressive but not too loud, then what I'm hearing from his comment is that he thinks your tone has too much brilliance and is not dark and round enough. This happens, to different degrees depending on our equipment, when we really lean on it. With some horns/mouthpieces, leaning on it takes away all the warmth and depth, and gives you a bright sound. My guess is that's what he's hearing.
OTOH, if this is the biggest problem with your amateur wind band and first-year conductor, then I'd say this band is in a great spot. Obviously, all the usual intonation and time problems inherent to amateur wind bands have been completely solved, and all he has left to do is to criticize the tone of his one trombone player trying to hold up what should be a full section. In which case, what a wonderful problem to have! Otherwise, if there are still pitch and time problems, perhaps he's focusing on one small problem he thinks he can solve, rather than the big systemic problems that are beyond resolution.
In other words, I think this is a seriously nit-picky complaint, considering all the problems amateur wind bands have, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe back off some or try a bigger mouthpiece, and if he's still not happy, then too bad for him. It's nice you're so conscientious about it, but I suspect this conductor actually has much bigger fish to fry.
Caveat: I'm saying this without listening to the recording because I'm sitting in a public place.[/quote]
Thanks for the comment, I have a feeling that it is quite accurate. We are actually not a particularly bad wind band and have many good players but of course we still share many of the usual problems of amateur wind bands.
Just to avoid confusion, the recording I inked to is not us playing, it is just the same piece and contains what I think my conductor is referring to as "aggressive" playing.
OTOH, if this is the biggest problem with your amateur wind band and first-year conductor, then I'd say this band is in a great spot. Obviously, all the usual intonation and time problems inherent to amateur wind bands have been completely solved, and all he has left to do is to criticize the tone of his one trombone player trying to hold up what should be a full section. In which case, what a wonderful problem to have! Otherwise, if there are still pitch and time problems, perhaps he's focusing on one small problem he thinks he can solve, rather than the big systemic problems that are beyond resolution.
In other words, I think this is a seriously nit-picky complaint, considering all the problems amateur wind bands have, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe back off some or try a bigger mouthpiece, and if he's still not happy, then too bad for him. It's nice you're so conscientious about it, but I suspect this conductor actually has much bigger fish to fry.
Caveat: I'm saying this without listening to the recording because I'm sitting in a public place.[/quote]
Thanks for the comment, I have a feeling that it is quite accurate. We are actually not a particularly bad wind band and have many good players but of course we still share many of the usual problems of amateur wind bands.
Just to avoid confusion, the recording I inked to is not us playing, it is just the same piece and contains what I think my conductor is referring to as "aggressive" playing.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]Relating to the OP:
Be careful with intonation. Done well, trombones should be the absolute best instruments defining intonation in the ensemble. But intonation is hard. It's very easy to give the pitch a 5 to 10 cent bump when getting louder, and sometimes this is a desirable effect and sometimes not. The trickiest thing is that at small changes in pitch up to maybe 10 to 15 cents, a change in pitch is more often perceived as a change in color rather than the literal change in tuning.
Ears are weird.
But that is one reason why an instrument gets more "edge" and sticks out of an ensemble - it's not just the tambre or even the extremely relevant articulation.[/quote]
Interesting thought, I think my intonation is usually quite good (at least I'm not used to others complaining about it) and I try to adjust all the time to what I hear, I don't rely on the others to adapt to me because I think this won't happen. But need to check this.
Be careful with intonation. Done well, trombones should be the absolute best instruments defining intonation in the ensemble. But intonation is hard. It's very easy to give the pitch a 5 to 10 cent bump when getting louder, and sometimes this is a desirable effect and sometimes not. The trickiest thing is that at small changes in pitch up to maybe 10 to 15 cents, a change in pitch is more often perceived as a change in color rather than the literal change in tuning.
Ears are weird.
But that is one reason why an instrument gets more "edge" and sticks out of an ensemble - it's not just the tambre or even the extremely relevant articulation.[/quote]
Interesting thought, I think my intonation is usually quite good (at least I'm not used to others complaining about it) and I try to adjust all the time to what I hear, I don't rely on the others to adapt to me because I think this won't happen. But need to check this.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AndrewMeronek"]... the overblown pompous boring dirge that is Wagner's music.[/quote]
Wagner "overblown?" You just discovered this?
Wagner "overblown?" You just discovered this?
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Nomsis" post_id="248103" time="1721237329" user_id="14893">
Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year.[/quote]
In that case, his frame of reference for wind band is probably informed by whatever experience he has had playing in such ensembles. You might want to ask him for his thoughts on blend and balance.
I'm afraid I have some difficulty engaging in a conversation along these lines without coming across as angry; it strikes far too close to home.
</QUOTE>
Afaik he never played in a wind band, he plays in a symphony orchestra for his day job. One time we played (this was other music though - christmas stuff) some of his colleagues came to listen and the trombone player told me the trombone was much too soft/quiet haha. Our conductor told me since he is conducting us he is listening to a lot of wind band music. I'm just not sure to what exactly he listens to. Some of the traditional german "Blasmusik" often gets recorded in a small ensemble not featuring a trombone at all...
Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year.[/quote]
In that case, his frame of reference for wind band is probably informed by whatever experience he has had playing in such ensembles. You might want to ask him for his thoughts on blend and balance.
I'm afraid I have some difficulty engaging in a conversation along these lines without coming across as angry; it strikes far too close to home.
</QUOTE>
Afaik he never played in a wind band, he plays in a symphony orchestra for his day job. One time we played (this was other music though - christmas stuff) some of his colleagues came to listen and the trombone player told me the trombone was much too soft/quiet haha. Our conductor told me since he is conducting us he is listening to a lot of wind band music. I'm just not sure to what exactly he listens to. Some of the traditional german "Blasmusik" often gets recorded in a small ensemble not featuring a trombone at all...
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Nomsis"]Afaik he never played in a wind band, he plays in a symphony orchestra for his day job.[/quote]
If he has spent any time at all in a wind band, it was probably during his formative years. If he's an American, playing in wind band in secondary school and university/conservatory is pretty standard. In other parts of the world, he might well have only played in an orchestra, even while in school.
If he has spent any time at all in a wind band, it was probably during his formative years. If he's an American, playing in wind band in secondary school and university/conservatory is pretty standard. In other parts of the world, he might well have only played in an orchestra, even while in school.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
We all have to live with this, one way or another, whether we play in a wind band or an orchestra.
Very few conductors have ever played or have a good grasp of the trombone. (Any more than I would, I suppose, with regard to a viola.) I've always tried to be understanding and sympathetic, so if I need to convey our section's concerns and capabilities to a conductor, I do it gently and in a friendly, helpful manner - with limited expectations that anything will change. We do the best we can to make effective music within the conductor's vision. It's not a good idea to rebel against a conductor!
Very few conductors have ever played or have a good grasp of the trombone. (Any more than I would, I suppose, with regard to a viola.) I've always tried to be understanding and sympathetic, so if I need to convey our section's concerns and capabilities to a conductor, I do it gently and in a friendly, helpful manner - with limited expectations that anything will change. We do the best we can to make effective music within the conductor's vision. It's not a good idea to rebel against a conductor!
- blap73
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Dec 26, 2021
The only thing I can contribute is my experience hearing the trumpet section playing fff. It sounded like a Tijuana Taxi traffic jam. Horrible screeching, painful to my (not very good) ears. Now, was that "too aggressive" or "too loud". Or it just became too aggressive because it was too loud?
What horn and mouthpiece are you using?
What horn and mouthpiece are you using?
- SteveM
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Dec 21, 2021
Just ask the conductor to describe what he means by "aggressive" and, once you understand what he does mean, let him know you are going to try to correct the problem and you would appreciate feedback as to whether you are moving in the right direction.
- flyingcow
- Posts: 58
- Joined: May 17, 2023
[quote="MahlerMusic"]This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.[/quote]
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.[/quote]
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="flyingcow"]<QUOTE author="MahlerMusic" post_id="248107" time="1721238849" user_id="6405">
This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.[/quote]
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.
</QUOTE>
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!
This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.[/quote]
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.
</QUOTE>
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!
- flyingcow
- Posts: 58
- Joined: May 17, 2023
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="flyingcow" post_id="248205" time="1721320598" user_id="16625">
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.[/quote]
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!
</QUOTE>
True... a fiberglass Sousaphone however... :horror:
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.[/quote]
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!
</QUOTE>
True... a fiberglass Sousaphone however... :horror:
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Nomsis"]I play a shires pro select with a silver plated bell and a joseph klier jk exclusive 6CL but that's my main setup for a very long time now.
[/quote]
I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?
[/quote]
I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Nomsis"]Is it possible to post audio to this forum?[/quote]
Did you try clicking the "attachments" tab, "add files", and selecting your mp3 file? Or post it on YouTube and link to it here.
Did you try clicking the "attachments" tab, "add files", and selecting your mp3 file? Or post it on YouTube and link to it here.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="flyingcow" post_id="248205" time="1721320598" user_id="16625">
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.[/quote]
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!
</QUOTE>
Yeah, got to be - although I would have guessed Stihl. She runs good at full throttle.
Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.[/quote]
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!
</QUOTE>
Yeah, got to be - although I would have guessed Stihl. She runs good at full throttle.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="MahlerMusic"]This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Funny thing is, it's very much "take no prisoners" when it's a moving part and less so on the big chords at the end.
<LINK_TEXT text="http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3">http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagner_Das_Rheingold/Wagner_Das_Rheingold_Frankfurt_Opera_House_and_Museum_Orchestra_Sebastian_Weigle_Scene4_6.mp3</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Funny thing is, it's very much "take no prisoners" when it's a moving part and less so on the big chords at the end.
- flyingcow
- Posts: 58
- Joined: May 17, 2023
[quote="TomInME"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="248218" time="1721328139" user_id="3131">
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby![/quote]
Yeah, got to be - although I would have guessed Stihl. She runs good at full throttle.
</QUOTE>
I dunno... Sounded too easy to start to be a Stihl.
If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby![/quote]
Yeah, got to be - although I would have guessed Stihl. She runs good at full throttle.
</QUOTE>
I dunno... Sounded too easy to start to be a Stihl.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
Sorry I needed to pack it up as zip because mp3 was not possible. I have attached the sheet music and how I play it. This is just a quick recording with my phone at home so it isn't perfect but I tried to play exactly how I would do with the others around.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="Nomsis" post_id="248082" time="1721223267" user_id="14893"> I play a shires pro select with a silver plated bell and a joseph klier jk exclusive 6CL but that's my main setup for a very long time now.
[/quote]
I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?
</QUOTE>
Interesting you say that because I know many people playing in a similar setup than me using smaller mouthpieces like for example the jk exclusive 8DL. C by the way is their medium cup and L is just the large shank. Here is the full range of their "exclusive" mouthpieces: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone">https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces/trombone-euphonium-tenor-horn-tuba--alto-horn#Trombone</LINK_TEXT> (just click the arrow to unfold the table)
I have five large shank mouthpieces, all of them are from the jk exlusive line:
- 9EL I don't use it, it's to small for large bore tenor in my opinion.
- 7EL This is a custom one I got used, I think it has a little bigger throat than the standard. I use it for smaller stuff like brass quintet and it makes the higher register a little bit easier and gives a very nice sound in my opinion. My favourite mouthpiece.
- 6CL my standard piece, works for almost everything in my opinion. Not perfect for everything.
- 5BL I use it when I need to play bass trombone stuff. Dulls the higher register but good for low register, especially below the stuff.
- 6BL I normally don't use it because I think it sits right between the 6CL and the 5BL. I might try using this one and see what the conductor says. Personally I like it less than the 6CL and it is more tiring.
By the way if you ask yourself why I have just joseph klier mouthpieces, it's very easy. They are available almost everywhere here in Germany, they are cheap, on the used market one can get them for usually 30 to 50€, sometimes less. They have a naming system I can understand (I never got a grip of the bach naming system for example) and one can get them in almost every size, custom orders are easy as well. And of course I think they play well, otherwise the rest would not matter.
[/quote]
I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?
</QUOTE>
Interesting you say that because I know many people playing in a similar setup than me using smaller mouthpieces like for example the jk exclusive 8DL. C by the way is their medium cup and L is just the large shank. Here is the full range of their "exclusive" mouthpieces: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone">https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces/trombone-euphonium-tenor-horn-tuba--alto-horn#Trombone</LINK_TEXT> (just click the arrow to unfold the table)
I have five large shank mouthpieces, all of them are from the jk exlusive line:
- 9EL I don't use it, it's to small for large bore tenor in my opinion.
- 7EL This is a custom one I got used, I think it has a little bigger throat than the standard. I use it for smaller stuff like brass quintet and it makes the higher register a little bit easier and gives a very nice sound in my opinion. My favourite mouthpiece.
- 6CL my standard piece, works for almost everything in my opinion. Not perfect for everything.
- 5BL I use it when I need to play bass trombone stuff. Dulls the higher register but good for low register, especially below the stuff.
- 6BL I normally don't use it because I think it sits right between the 6CL and the 5BL. I might try using this one and see what the conductor says. Personally I like it less than the 6CL and it is more tiring.
By the way if you ask yourself why I have just joseph klier mouthpieces, it's very easy. They are available almost everywhere here in Germany, they are cheap, on the used market one can get them for usually 30 to 50€, sometimes less. They have a naming system I can understand (I never got a grip of the bach naming system for example) and one can get them in almost every size, custom orders are easy as well. And of course I think they play well, otherwise the rest would not matter.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I played in a wind orchestra with a conductor who had similar preferences, especially about the trombones and trumpets. He‘s a very fine trombonist himself and I have the highest respect for him as a conductor.
I came from the British brass band tradition and learned my trade in a very loud band with an old-skool conductor who liked trombones to sound like the pea-shooters he grew up with. Playing a modern large horn on a 5G and trying to meet his sound concept meant either pushing the horn to its absolute earth-shattering limits or (at the time) sub-consciously closing up my mouth cavity and just introducing unnecessary stress and tension to try and brighten the sound.
Once I moved to Germany and started listening to the feedback of the wind band conductor, it opened up a lot wider perspective and terms such as aggressive and harsh were probably fair criticism. I’ve worked hard on it and can generally keep the animal in its cage most of the time. Changing to a Bach/Edwards based setup away from a lightweight Conn did help me figure it out, but now I can also pick up an 88HT and play it much more controlled than when I used to own one so the gear change was part of the journey for me but not the fundamental problem.
If I’m struggling a bit for practice time and a bit off form, I find the sterling silver leadpipe does take a bit of the front edge off some attacks and whilst more expensive than a technique or mouthpiece change, it’s a couple of hundred € rather than a new slide/horn. It isn’t the main solution for me though, only a safety net if I’m out of practice and trying to overdo it.
I don’t know if your conductor shares the same view but particularly in the bass section solos in marches, the trombonist wind band conductor I knew liked a lot of tuba/baritone with trombones sitting on top of the pyramid and not cutting through too much. If I listen to your recording, I enjoy your playing in general but could imagine that the trombone might stick out a bit in such sections. It’s hard to tell from a solo phone recording, I’ll have to come and listen live sometime instead. Whereabouts in Germany are you?
I came from the British brass band tradition and learned my trade in a very loud band with an old-skool conductor who liked trombones to sound like the pea-shooters he grew up with. Playing a modern large horn on a 5G and trying to meet his sound concept meant either pushing the horn to its absolute earth-shattering limits or (at the time) sub-consciously closing up my mouth cavity and just introducing unnecessary stress and tension to try and brighten the sound.
Once I moved to Germany and started listening to the feedback of the wind band conductor, it opened up a lot wider perspective and terms such as aggressive and harsh were probably fair criticism. I’ve worked hard on it and can generally keep the animal in its cage most of the time. Changing to a Bach/Edwards based setup away from a lightweight Conn did help me figure it out, but now I can also pick up an 88HT and play it much more controlled than when I used to own one so the gear change was part of the journey for me but not the fundamental problem.
If I’m struggling a bit for practice time and a bit off form, I find the sterling silver leadpipe does take a bit of the front edge off some attacks and whilst more expensive than a technique or mouthpiece change, it’s a couple of hundred € rather than a new slide/horn. It isn’t the main solution for me though, only a safety net if I’m out of practice and trying to overdo it.
I don’t know if your conductor shares the same view but particularly in the bass section solos in marches, the trombonist wind band conductor I knew liked a lot of tuba/baritone with trombones sitting on top of the pyramid and not cutting through too much. If I listen to your recording, I enjoy your playing in general but could imagine that the trombone might stick out a bit in such sections. It’s hard to tell from a solo phone recording, I’ll have to come and listen live sometime instead. Whereabouts in Germany are you?
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Nomsis"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="248300" time="1721419566" user_id="4102">
I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?[/quote]
Interesting you say that because I know many people playing in a similar setup than me using smaller mouthpieces like for example the jk exclusive 8DL. C by the way is their medium cup and L is just the large shank. Here is the full range of their "exclusive" mouthpieces: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone">https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces/trombone-euphonium-tenor-horn-tuba--alto-horn#Trombone</LINK_TEXT> (just click the arrow to unfold the table)
I have five large shank mouthpieces, all of them are from the jk exlusive line:
- 9EL I don't use it, it's to small for large bore tenor in my opinion.
- 7EL This is a custom one I got used, I think it has a little bigger throat than the standard. I use it for smaller stuff like brass quintet and it makes the higher register a little bit easier and gives a very nice sound in my opinion. My favourite mouthpiece.
- 6CL my standard piece, works for almost everything in my opinion. Not perfect for everything.
- 5BL I use it when I need to play bass trombone stuff. Dulls the higher register but good for low register, especially below the stuff.
- 6BL I normally don't use it because I think it sits right between the 6CL and the 5BL. I might try using this one and see what the conductor says. Personally I like it less than the 6CL and it is more tiring.
By the way if you ask yourself why I have just joseph klier mouthpieces, it's very easy. They are available almost everywhere here in Germany, they are cheap, on the used market one can get them for usually 30 to 50€, sometimes less. They have a naming system I can understand (I never got a grip of the bach naming system for example) and one can get them in almost every size, custom orders are easy as well. And of course I think they play well, otherwise the rest would not matter.
</QUOTE>
Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.
I realize it's a different country and a different tradition of playing; I just thought it might be an easy thing to try and see if it helps. If not, nothing lost.
I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?[/quote]
Interesting you say that because I know many people playing in a similar setup than me using smaller mouthpieces like for example the jk exclusive 8DL. C by the way is their medium cup and L is just the large shank. Here is the full range of their "exclusive" mouthpieces: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone">https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces/trombone-euphonium-tenor-horn-tuba--alto-horn#Trombone</LINK_TEXT> (just click the arrow to unfold the table)
I have five large shank mouthpieces, all of them are from the jk exlusive line:
- 9EL I don't use it, it's to small for large bore tenor in my opinion.
- 7EL This is a custom one I got used, I think it has a little bigger throat than the standard. I use it for smaller stuff like brass quintet and it makes the higher register a little bit easier and gives a very nice sound in my opinion. My favourite mouthpiece.
- 6CL my standard piece, works for almost everything in my opinion. Not perfect for everything.
- 5BL I use it when I need to play bass trombone stuff. Dulls the higher register but good for low register, especially below the stuff.
- 6BL I normally don't use it because I think it sits right between the 6CL and the 5BL. I might try using this one and see what the conductor says. Personally I like it less than the 6CL and it is more tiring.
By the way if you ask yourself why I have just joseph klier mouthpieces, it's very easy. They are available almost everywhere here in Germany, they are cheap, on the used market one can get them for usually 30 to 50€, sometimes less. They have a naming system I can understand (I never got a grip of the bach naming system for example) and one can get them in almost every size, custom orders are easy as well. And of course I think they play well, otherwise the rest would not matter.
</QUOTE>
Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.
I realize it's a different country and a different tradition of playing; I just thought it might be an easy thing to try and see if it helps. If not, nothing lost.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Nomsis"]Sorry I needed to pack it up as zip because mp3 was not possible. I have attached the sheet music and how I play it. This is just a quick recording with my phone at home so it isn't perfect but I tried to play exactly how I would do with the others around.[/quote]
I notice a couple of things in the recording. First, you play measure 1 rhythmically different from measure 9. The double tongue is leading you to play those 1/8th notes like 1/16th notes. Measure 9 is correct.
A lot of the whole notes (2A) you are not holding long enough. All the separation helps emphasize the hard articulations. Also, measure 58-59 should be a slur, but you're rearticulating the lower note.
In general, I'd work on a rounder sound (sounds like a bigger mouthpiece may help, I'm not familiar with JK stuff), playing notes full length, with less aggressive articulation. Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little. And make sure you don't get overly excited on the short notes - make sure they're the right length. I think those things will help.
I notice a couple of things in the recording. First, you play measure 1 rhythmically different from measure 9. The double tongue is leading you to play those 1/8th notes like 1/16th notes. Measure 9 is correct.
A lot of the whole notes (2A) you are not holding long enough. All the separation helps emphasize the hard articulations. Also, measure 58-59 should be a slur, but you're rearticulating the lower note.
In general, I'd work on a rounder sound (sounds like a bigger mouthpiece may help, I'm not familiar with JK stuff), playing notes full length, with less aggressive articulation. Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little. And make sure you don't get overly excited on the short notes - make sure they're the right length. I think those things will help.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="hyperbolica"]Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little.[/quote]
I like to think of it as "tAH" instead of "Tah," emphasizing the air over the articulation (which is secondary to the air, and this helps us think of it that way).
I like to think of it as "tAH" instead of "Tah," emphasizing the air over the articulation (which is secondary to the air, and this helps us think of it that way).
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="brassmedic"]Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.[/quote]
I have tried several Josef Klier mouthpieces, and enjoy playing them. One should not in any way try to compare their numbering system with Bach's; Klier's is different - more systematic, more sophisticated, and more comprehensive.
To simplify a bit, Klier's Cup letters are tied to the Throat bore, as follows:
BK: Very Deep; 7.6 mm Throat
A: Very Deep; 7.2 mm Throat
B: Deep; 6.8 mm Throat
C: Middle; 6.4 mm Throat
D: Shallow; 6.0 mm Throat
E: Very Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
F: Extremely Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
Klier's Cup numbers refer to the Cup (Inner Rim) Diameter
For instance, in the "C" series (Large or Small Shank):
1C: 28.00 mm Cup
2C: 27.50 mm Cup
3C: 27.00 mm Cup
4C: 26.50 mm Cup
5C: 26.00 mm Cup
6C: 25.75 mm Cup
7C: 25.50 mm Cup
8C: 25.25 mm Cup
9C: 25.00 mm Cup
10C: 24.50 mm Cup
So: A Klier "C" cup is "medium" depth - in large bore pieces just a touch shallower than a Bach "G" cup,
and a Klier "B" Cup is deeper - perhaps similar to a Bach "G" Cup.
So to make the (somewhat unfair) comparisons (at least on paper, since I haven't done it in real life):
A Klier 7B might resemble a Bach 5G
A Klier 7C might resemble a Bach 6½AL or a Bach 5GS
A Klier 6B might resemble a Schilke 51 or a Bach 5GB
A Klier 6C might resemble a Schilke 51B
A Klier 5B might resemble a Bach 4G or a Schilke D5.2 "Symphony"
So, in general, I agree with Brad (brassmedic): Nomsis should try a slightly larger / deeper large-shank mouthpiece for his wind band than his 6CL. Perhaps a 6BL or a 5BL.
[His "E" cups are (in my opinion) really too shallow for a large-bore trombone.]
I have tried several Josef Klier mouthpieces, and enjoy playing them. One should not in any way try to compare their numbering system with Bach's; Klier's is different - more systematic, more sophisticated, and more comprehensive.
To simplify a bit, Klier's Cup letters are tied to the Throat bore, as follows:
BK: Very Deep; 7.6 mm Throat
A: Very Deep; 7.2 mm Throat
B: Deep; 6.8 mm Throat
C: Middle; 6.4 mm Throat
D: Shallow; 6.0 mm Throat
E: Very Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
F: Extremely Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
Klier's Cup numbers refer to the Cup (Inner Rim) Diameter
For instance, in the "C" series (Large or Small Shank):
1C: 28.00 mm Cup
2C: 27.50 mm Cup
3C: 27.00 mm Cup
4C: 26.50 mm Cup
5C: 26.00 mm Cup
6C: 25.75 mm Cup
7C: 25.50 mm Cup
8C: 25.25 mm Cup
9C: 25.00 mm Cup
10C: 24.50 mm Cup
So: A Klier "C" cup is "medium" depth - in large bore pieces just a touch shallower than a Bach "G" cup,
and a Klier "B" Cup is deeper - perhaps similar to a Bach "G" Cup.
So to make the (somewhat unfair) comparisons (at least on paper, since I haven't done it in real life):
A Klier 7B might resemble a Bach 5G
A Klier 7C might resemble a Bach 6½AL or a Bach 5GS
A Klier 6B might resemble a Schilke 51 or a Bach 5GB
A Klier 6C might resemble a Schilke 51B
A Klier 5B might resemble a Bach 4G or a Schilke D5.2 "Symphony"
So, in general, I agree with Brad (brassmedic): Nomsis should try a slightly larger / deeper large-shank mouthpiece for his wind band than his 6CL. Perhaps a 6BL or a 5BL.
[His "E" cups are (in my opinion) really too shallow for a large-bore trombone.]
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="248384" time="1721502742" user_id="4102">
Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.[/quote]
I have tried several Josef Klier mouthpieces, and enjoy playing them. One should not in any way try to compare their numbering system with Bach's; Klier's is different - more systematic, more sophisticated, and more comprehensive.
To simplify a bit, Klier's Cup letters are tied to the Throat bore, as follows:
BK: Very Deep; 7.6 mm Throat
A: Very Deep; 7.2 mm Throat
B: Deep; 6.8 mm Throat
C: Middle; 6.4 mm Throat
D: Shallow; 6.0 mm Throat
E: Very Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
F: Extremely Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
Klier's Cup numbers refer to the Cup (Inner Rim) Diameter
For instance, in the "C" series (Large or Small Shank):
1C: 28.00 mm Cup
2C: 27.50 mm Cup
3C: 27.00 mm Cup
4C: 26.50 mm Cup
5C: 26.00 mm Cup
6C: 25.75 mm Cup
7C: 25.50 mm Cup
8C: 25.25 mm Cup
9C: 25.00 mm Cup
10C: 24.50 mm Cup
So: A Klier "C" cup is "medium" depth - in large bore pieces just a touch shallower than a Bach "G" cup,
and a Klier "B" Cup is deeper - perhaps similar to a Bach "G" Cup.
So to make the (somewhat unfair) comparisons (at least on paper, since I haven't done it in real life):
A Klier 7B might resemble a Bach 5G
A Klier 7C might resemble a Bach 6½AL or a Bach 5GS
A Klier 6B might resemble a Schilke 51 or a Bach 5GB
A Klier 6C might resemble a Schilke 51B
A Klier 5B might resemble a Bach 4G or a Schilke D5.2 "Symphony"
So, in general, I agree with Brad (brassmedic): Nomsis should try a slightly larger / deeper large-shank mouthpiece for his wind band than his 6CL. Perhaps a 6BL or a 5BL.
[His "E" cups are (in my opinion) really too shallow for a large-bore trombone.]
</QUOTE>
I wasn't trying to compare their system to Bach's, I was using their own literature. It says here https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces:
The following specifications apply to all JK-USA Line mouthpieces:
A models: deep cups
B models: medium deep cups
C models: medium shallow cups
D models: shallow cups
E models: very shallow cups
W models: with extra-broad rim
Models without letter: medium cups
And here <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone">https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces/trombone-euphonium-tenor-horn-tuba--alto-horn#Trombone</LINK_TEXT> it says, as you pointed out, that is tied with a throat of 6.4 mm, which as I said is pretty small, compared to a Bach 5G, for example, which has a throat of .276" which is 7.0104 mm. Seems strange to tie the cup size to the backbore, but I guess that's what they do.
Have you actually measured the cup depth on these? Because I'm having a hard time believing that JKs "medium shallow" cup is almost as deep as Bach's "deep" cup. I would think the JK would be a great deal more shallow. They do seem to have inner rim diameters that are wider than Bach mouthpieces with the same number, but so do most other makers that use a numerical system like that. And I think the cup depth and the throat are going to affect the brightness of tone more than the inner rim diameter.
Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.[/quote]
I have tried several Josef Klier mouthpieces, and enjoy playing them. One should not in any way try to compare their numbering system with Bach's; Klier's is different - more systematic, more sophisticated, and more comprehensive.
To simplify a bit, Klier's Cup letters are tied to the Throat bore, as follows:
BK: Very Deep; 7.6 mm Throat
A: Very Deep; 7.2 mm Throat
B: Deep; 6.8 mm Throat
C: Middle; 6.4 mm Throat
D: Shallow; 6.0 mm Throat
E: Very Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
F: Extremely Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
Klier's Cup numbers refer to the Cup (Inner Rim) Diameter
For instance, in the "C" series (Large or Small Shank):
1C: 28.00 mm Cup
2C: 27.50 mm Cup
3C: 27.00 mm Cup
4C: 26.50 mm Cup
5C: 26.00 mm Cup
6C: 25.75 mm Cup
7C: 25.50 mm Cup
8C: 25.25 mm Cup
9C: 25.00 mm Cup
10C: 24.50 mm Cup
So: A Klier "C" cup is "medium" depth - in large bore pieces just a touch shallower than a Bach "G" cup,
and a Klier "B" Cup is deeper - perhaps similar to a Bach "G" Cup.
So to make the (somewhat unfair) comparisons (at least on paper, since I haven't done it in real life):
A Klier 7B might resemble a Bach 5G
A Klier 7C might resemble a Bach 6½AL or a Bach 5GS
A Klier 6B might resemble a Schilke 51 or a Bach 5GB
A Klier 6C might resemble a Schilke 51B
A Klier 5B might resemble a Bach 4G or a Schilke D5.2 "Symphony"
So, in general, I agree with Brad (brassmedic): Nomsis should try a slightly larger / deeper large-shank mouthpiece for his wind band than his 6CL. Perhaps a 6BL or a 5BL.
[His "E" cups are (in my opinion) really too shallow for a large-bore trombone.]
</QUOTE>
I wasn't trying to compare their system to Bach's, I was using their own literature. It says here https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces:
The following specifications apply to all JK-USA Line mouthpieces:
A models: deep cups
B models: medium deep cups
C models: medium shallow cups
D models: shallow cups
E models: very shallow cups
W models: with extra-broad rim
Models without letter: medium cups
And here <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone">https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces/trombone-euphonium-tenor-horn-tuba--alto-horn#Trombone</LINK_TEXT> it says, as you pointed out, that is tied with a throat of 6.4 mm, which as I said is pretty small, compared to a Bach 5G, for example, which has a throat of .276" which is 7.0104 mm. Seems strange to tie the cup size to the backbore, but I guess that's what they do.
Have you actually measured the cup depth on these? Because I'm having a hard time believing that JKs "medium shallow" cup is almost as deep as Bach's "deep" cup. I would think the JK would be a great deal more shallow. They do seem to have inner rim diameters that are wider than Bach mouthpieces with the same number, but so do most other makers that use a numerical system like that. And I think the cup depth and the throat are going to affect the brightness of tone more than the inner rim diameter.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
Brassmedic:
He is NOT playing a JK USA line mouthpiece. The mouthpieces named are from the Exclusive line.
There the C cup depths is not unusual for large tenor. People usually play the C or B. The throats are indeed on the smaller end.
I have not listened to the recording yet, but would assume that the challenge does not lie in the equipment.
I have experienced a well-known wind band conductor (funnily also an oboeist) who aimed for basically no edge for the whole orchestra. This leads to a very nice and pleasant overall sound, but somehow missing the extremes and actual climax. I think this is to a degree a tradition in (Central?) European wind band playing.
He is NOT playing a JK USA line mouthpiece. The mouthpieces named are from the Exclusive line.
There the C cup depths is not unusual for large tenor. People usually play the C or B. The throats are indeed on the smaller end.
I have not listened to the recording yet, but would assume that the challenge does not lie in the equipment.
I have experienced a well-known wind band conductor (funnily also an oboeist) who aimed for basically no edge for the whole orchestra. This leads to a very nice and pleasant overall sound, but somehow missing the extremes and actual climax. I think this is to a degree a tradition in (Central?) European wind band playing.
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
[quote="MStarke"]Brassmedic:
He is NOT playing a JK USA line mouthpiece. The mouthpieces named are from the Exclusive line.
There the C cup depths is not unusual for large tenor. People usually play the C or B. The throats are indeed on the smaller end.[/quote]
Oh, yes I see it now. It's confusing because that same page links to the second page I posted that shows the Exclusive line. But now I see it shows the USA line under that. So would the B cup be similar to a Bach 5G, and the C cup a bit smaller, or are they using a different definition of "deep"?
Listen to his recording (not the YouTube recording) and let us know what you think.
He is NOT playing a JK USA line mouthpiece. The mouthpieces named are from the Exclusive line.
There the C cup depths is not unusual for large tenor. People usually play the C or B. The throats are indeed on the smaller end.[/quote]
Oh, yes I see it now. It's confusing because that same page links to the second page I posted that shows the Exclusive line. But now I see it shows the USA line under that. So would the B cup be similar to a Bach 5G, and the C cup a bit smaller, or are they using a different definition of "deep"?
I have not listened to the recording yet, but would assume that the challenge does not lie in the equipment.
I have experienced a well-known wind band conductor (funnily also an oboeist) who aimed for basically no edge for the whole orchestra. This leads to a very nice and pleasant overall sound, but somehow missing the extremes and actual climax. I think this is to a degree a tradition in (Central?) European wind band playing.
Listen to his recording (not the YouTube recording) and let us know what you think.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
I just thought about the last time I played in a wind orchestra. I am part of an orchestra that meets twice a year, always in different places around the country where we have a weekend of rehearsals followed by a concert. It is led by a retired professional conductor and the majority of the musicians are currently active or retired musicians from the major orchestras in the country. When those fortissimo parts came, I didn't give all I got but kept quite far from the strongest I could play. This allowed me to learn the part without risking any mistakes that might irritate. When it was time for the dress rehearsal, the conductor stopped us right after our solo and gave some information to the woodwinds and then still loocking att the woodwinds he ended with "and I would like to hear a bit more trombone." I raised my hand and enthusiastically exclaimed, "Excuse me Maestro, did I hear correctly that you want more trombone?" Everyone in the orchestra laughed, probably because I sounded so happy. Even the conductor laughed. The tuba player cheered "Now you get your trombones". After that, I played my fortissimo and the conductor was pleased.
A good conductor knows how a trombone fortissimo should sound, and he also knows when to call for it.
/Tom
A good conductor knows how a trombone fortissimo should sound, and he also knows when to call for it.
/Tom
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
Hey, thanks for all your feedback and responses, I've read all of it and really appreciate it! I might not answer every single post though, just a few.
[quote="hyperbolica"]
I notice a couple of things in the recording. First, you play measure 1 rhythmically different from measure 9. The double tongue is leading you to play those 1/8th notes like 1/16th notes. Measure 9 is correct.
[/quote]
Yeah that sometimes happens when I don't pay attention. I think it's because when playing offbeats in this style of music they often get "laid back" and then the 1/8ths need to be a little faster. I think the whole wind band plays this not always exactly like written, I hope this makes sense somewhat but off course you are right that in this case it's just not right rhythmically.
[quote="hyperbolica"]
A lot of the whole notes (2A) you are not holding long enough. All the separation helps emphasize the hard articulations. Also, measure 58-59 should be a slur, but you're rearticulating the lower note.
[/quote]
You are defintely right, this is probably because I play this ff (I think my recording doesn't show it well, but I played this really loud for demonstration purposes) and then I need a lot of air. I think its more important to come clean and in time for the next note than holding it to the very end. I think in the youtube recording they shorten it a little bit as well. But yeah definitely should be a little longer. Measure 58-59 features a hat so I'm not quite sure how this should be played.
[quote="hyperbolica"]
In general, I'd work on a rounder sound (sounds like a bigger mouthpiece may help, I'm not familiar with JK stuff), playing notes full length, with less aggressive articulation. Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little. And make sure you don't get overly excited on the short notes - make sure they're the right length. I think those things will help.[/quote]
I think I have no problem in general to achieve a rounder and softer sound just in this style of music where everything is articulated, short and/or loud I find it hard to combine this with "roundness". I think a soft articulation would not be a perfect fit for this style but maybe just a little softer.
[quote="hyperbolica"]
I notice a couple of things in the recording. First, you play measure 1 rhythmically different from measure 9. The double tongue is leading you to play those 1/8th notes like 1/16th notes. Measure 9 is correct.
[/quote]
Yeah that sometimes happens when I don't pay attention. I think it's because when playing offbeats in this style of music they often get "laid back" and then the 1/8ths need to be a little faster. I think the whole wind band plays this not always exactly like written, I hope this makes sense somewhat but off course you are right that in this case it's just not right rhythmically.
[quote="hyperbolica"]
A lot of the whole notes (2A) you are not holding long enough. All the separation helps emphasize the hard articulations. Also, measure 58-59 should be a slur, but you're rearticulating the lower note.
[/quote]
You are defintely right, this is probably because I play this ff (I think my recording doesn't show it well, but I played this really loud for demonstration purposes) and then I need a lot of air. I think its more important to come clean and in time for the next note than holding it to the very end. I think in the youtube recording they shorten it a little bit as well. But yeah definitely should be a little longer. Measure 58-59 features a hat so I'm not quite sure how this should be played.
[quote="hyperbolica"]
In general, I'd work on a rounder sound (sounds like a bigger mouthpiece may help, I'm not familiar with JK stuff), playing notes full length, with less aggressive articulation. Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little. And make sure you don't get overly excited on the short notes - make sure they're the right length. I think those things will help.[/quote]
I think I have no problem in general to achieve a rounder and softer sound just in this style of music where everything is articulated, short and/or loud I find it hard to combine this with "roundness". I think a soft articulation would not be a perfect fit for this style but maybe just a little softer.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
Concerning the mouthpieces I will definitely try the JK exlusive 6BL I have laying around. I did already some short experiments this morning and it worked out better than I remembered from the last time I tested. Still need to test it in "real life" and for the full duration of a gig. It can get tiring when playing offbeats above the stuff (of course not exclusively but for a large amount of time) for 2 hours with little rest.
I think if I would buy a new one I would probably want to test the 6CL from Klier but with a bigger throat. I have a feeling some of the Kliers could benefit from a bigger throat. My custom 7EL I mentioned above for example plays very open and does not feel that small at all, despite the shallow cup. But custom orders are out of budget for me at the moment.
I think if I would buy a new one I would probably want to test the 6CL from Klier but with a bigger throat. I have a feeling some of the Kliers could benefit from a bigger throat. My custom 7EL I mentioned above for example plays very open and does not feel that small at all, despite the shallow cup. But custom orders are out of budget for me at the moment.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I think you should show this thread to your conductor. He'll see all the effort here and cut you some slack. I do think this is a heroic level of concern over something de minimus in the grand wind band scheme of things.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]I think you should show this thread to your conductor. He'll see all the effort here and cut you some slack. I do think this is a heroic level of concern over something de minimus in the grand wind band scheme of things.[/quote]
Haha but this is not primarily about making my conductor happy it's more about improving and reflecting my trombone playing.
Haha but this is not primarily about making my conductor happy it's more about improving and reflecting my trombone playing.
- Oslide
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Apr 03, 2018
Amateur here, so forgive me if I'm wrong.
I sincerely hope that the quality of the recording is the culprit, but what I hear listening to
Sound record (2024-07-20 10_12_30).mp3
is some kind of distortion throughout the larger part of of the recording, like one might hear with an electric guitar and a fuzz tone pedal.
As unlikely as it seems it reminds me of a trombone where bell and slide come from vastly different models, or a mouthpiece that doesn't fit.
As I said, I hope it's the recording.
I sincerely hope that the quality of the recording is the culprit, but what I hear listening to
Sound record (2024-07-20 10_12_30).mp3
is some kind of distortion throughout the larger part of of the recording, like one might hear with an electric guitar and a fuzz tone pedal.
As unlikely as it seems it reminds me of a trombone where bell and slide come from vastly different models, or a mouthpiece that doesn't fit.
As I said, I hope it's the recording.
- blap73
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Dec 26, 2021
[quote="Nomsis"]Sorry I needed to pack it up as zip because mp3 was not possible. I have attached the sheet music and how I play it. This is just a quick recording with my phone at home so it isn't perfect but I tried to play exactly how I would do with the others around.[/quote]
How close was the phone to your bell?
And what are your thoughts on how the recording sounds to you?
How close was the phone to your bell?
And what are your thoughts on how the recording sounds to you?
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
For me it sounds like a loud trombone recorded with a cheap phone in a acoustically very dry room. Not great or perfect and not how I would produce a CD but I can't find anything completely off either.
The phone was placed about 1or 2 meters away from the bell but not directly in front of the bell but sideways. I played much louder as anyone would normally do when playing on his own because the purpose was trying to play exactly like if the others would be around. Of course the phone could not handle this completely well and introduced a little bit of extra buzzing but I assumed anyone who tried to record a loud trombone or trumpet or similar with a phone would be familiar with this.
The phone was placed about 1or 2 meters away from the bell but not directly in front of the bell but sideways. I played much louder as anyone would normally do when playing on his own because the purpose was trying to play exactly like if the others would be around. Of course the phone could not handle this completely well and introduced a little bit of extra buzzing but I assumed anyone who tried to record a loud trombone or trumpet or similar with a phone would be familiar with this.
- Oslide
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Apr 03, 2018
I guess it would be best for you to get the opinion of a competent person that can hear you play live.
All the best!
All the best!
- blap73
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Dec 26, 2021
[quote="Oslide"]Amateur here, so forgive me if I'm wrong.
I sincerely hope that the quality of the recording is the culprit, but what I hear listening to
Sound record (2024-07-20 10_12_30).mp3
is some kind of distortion throughout the larger part of of the recording, like one might hear with an electric guitar and a fuzz tone pedal.
As unlikely as it seems it reminds me of a trombone where bell and slide come from vastly different models, or a mouthpiece that doesn't fit.
As I said, I hope it's the recording.[/quote]
Yeah, this was my impression too. I'm an amateur too so I didn't want to say anything! I have a couple thoughts triggered by your comment on "mouthpiece fit":
1) check for a leaky water key. Fill slide w/water, if you get drips then that cork needs attention.
2) F-valve alignment. If out of alignment the sound quality goes way down. Don't trust that the marks are correct, actually look down the tubes, you shouldn't see any edge of the valve protruding into the tubing.
I sincerely hope that the quality of the recording is the culprit, but what I hear listening to
Sound record (2024-07-20 10_12_30).mp3
is some kind of distortion throughout the larger part of of the recording, like one might hear with an electric guitar and a fuzz tone pedal.
As unlikely as it seems it reminds me of a trombone where bell and slide come from vastly different models, or a mouthpiece that doesn't fit.
As I said, I hope it's the recording.[/quote]
Yeah, this was my impression too. I'm an amateur too so I didn't want to say anything! I have a couple thoughts triggered by your comment on "mouthpiece fit":
1) check for a leaky water key. Fill slide w/water, if you get drips then that cork needs attention.
2) F-valve alignment. If out of alignment the sound quality goes way down. Don't trust that the marks are correct, actually look down the tubes, you shouldn't see any edge of the valve protruding into the tubing.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
[quote="brassmedic"]Listen to his recording (not the YouTube recording) and let us know what you think.[/quote]
My impression:
Sounds like a good amateur level playing maybe a bit too much in the style of some of some of the popular more traditional German wind bands. Also a bit Mnozil Brass in there :-)
In order to make it less aggressive:
- Play notes longer so that they match the full written length
- Play just a little bit softer
- Play with a bit less front to the note/articulate the beginning softer
- AND: Also consider making the end of the notes a bit softer! They sound pretty much cut off
I think the tonal colour of the longer notes is not really the issue, but the articulation can be too much.
The solution does not primarily lie in equipment, though a little deeper cup may make it just a bit rounder.
My impression:
Sounds like a good amateur level playing maybe a bit too much in the style of some of some of the popular more traditional German wind bands. Also a bit Mnozil Brass in there :-)
In order to make it less aggressive:
- Play notes longer so that they match the full written length
- Play just a little bit softer
- Play with a bit less front to the note/articulate the beginning softer
- AND: Also consider making the end of the notes a bit softer! They sound pretty much cut off
I think the tonal colour of the longer notes is not really the issue, but the articulation can be too much.
The solution does not primarily lie in equipment, though a little deeper cup may make it just a bit rounder.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="hyperbolica"]Aggressive probably means either tongued too hard or too much edge. An oboist might not understand either well enough to ask for the right thing. A bigger bore trombone might help get more volume without edge. Be conscious of your articulations. Even intonation at high volume can get raucous.[/quote]
I finally got to listen to the recording.
There's a language barrier and a culture barrier here. I think of aggressive as maybe a halftime football game trombonist burying the band with that buzzy edge. But that's not what I hear. I hear a tone that seems a little forced and tense. (some of that is because of the material - maybe give us an example of something more melodic) The execution is pretty clean.
It's a phone recording and we don't know what it sounds like live. My laptop runs through an old Onkyo stereo to a set of PolkAudio speakers and that may add some distortion. It would be good to play live for someone experienced.
I think, having heard some European bands when I lived in Germany, and having played for a German director in the US, that he might be looking for a more mellow warmer tone. The word aggressive is probably wrong but there aren't good terms to describe tone.
I finally got to listen to the recording.
There's a language barrier and a culture barrier here. I think of aggressive as maybe a halftime football game trombonist burying the band with that buzzy edge. But that's not what I hear. I hear a tone that seems a little forced and tense. (some of that is because of the material - maybe give us an example of something more melodic) The execution is pretty clean.
It's a phone recording and we don't know what it sounds like live. My laptop runs through an old Onkyo stereo to a set of PolkAudio speakers and that may add some distortion. It would be good to play live for someone experienced.
I think, having heard some European bands when I lived in Germany, and having played for a German director in the US, that he might be looking for a more mellow warmer tone. The word aggressive is probably wrong but there aren't good terms to describe tone.
- blap73
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Dec 26, 2021
I went back to the recording, and pulled it up in Audacity (a full blown audio editor). Here's a screenshot of the recording. You can see the recording is clipping in all the loud sections as the microphone audio gain was set way too high for the loudness of the playing. Its not possible to judge the aggressiveness (or not) given the clipping.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1Un67y8PHssf5EnA9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1Un67y8PHssf5EnA9
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
I listened again now that I've played it and recorded it myself.
Now I tend to agree, your recording is distorting too much to tell. So disregard my earlier comment about tension (although it could still be true.)
And now I have to rethink how I record myself, now that I've resolved to do it more. I've been using iPhone on the music stand. Maybe try again a little farther away. Although, I didn't hear the same kind of distortion in mine.
And if you haven't played a lot of German wind band music, that is an absolutely classic example of the style we play all the time in one of my bands.
Now I tend to agree, your recording is distorting too much to tell. So disregard my earlier comment about tension (although it could still be true.)
And now I have to rethink how I record myself, now that I've resolved to do it more. I've been using iPhone on the music stand. Maybe try again a little farther away. Although, I didn't hear the same kind of distortion in mine.
And if you haven't played a lot of German wind band music, that is an absolutely classic example of the style we play all the time in one of my bands.
- Nomsis
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Feb 02, 2022
Thanks for your efforts testing this out and giving your feedback. And sorry for the bad recording but I don't have any better recording device at hand, my phone isn't an Iphone but a pretty cheap Motorola. When I play lees loud it usually works ok but as previously explained I wanted to show my louder dynamics. Experimenting with the placement might help but I don't have time for that at the moment. If you want to share I would be interested in your recording though. (you could also send it to me via PM to not overflow this thread)
- blap73
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Dec 26, 2021
I've used a free app from the Play Store (Android) called ASR. It allows you to adjust the microphone sensitivity (called gain in the app). Back when I had a Moto phone, it was Android, (I think) you should be able to install this app on your phone.
- boneAngo
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Jul 26, 2024
I face the same problem bro. What you need to do is your control of breathe by practicing long tones. You are using the strength of your lungs but not your support. Also for tonguing you tongued too heavy (meaning that your tongue's contact time with the jaw is too long). Just never ever change your instrument or your mouthpiece because of that. Always think of "what can I improve" instead of "should I change my hardwares".