Actually, my question is not only about the C :bassclef: :space2: but other notes in 6th and 7th position in general.

Two staffs teaching at my school, one is a professional tubist and one is a semi-professional trombonist studying master in trombone performance, teach the students that the “default” position of C (and low F) is the 6th position. They didn’t say anything about B and low E (7th position) but I assume their argument extends there also. My definition of a “default” position is that the position one should always use unless there is a technical implications. For example, long notes in chords should be played with the position as much as possible.

I took it quite personally because I am the one who teach the students, as a band alumni, that they should always use the valve if the passage does not necessitate alternate positions, or in other words, polar opposite of the two staff’s method.

I don’t want to argue with them. Or I would say I can’t. After all I am just an amateur, with no degree at all in music. But my reasons are as follows:

1. Thai people’s arm length is shorter than europeans/americans. Reaching 6th positions can be done, but often less reliably, especially for grade 6-8 kids, let alone 7 position. Therefore the possibility of missing the note is high, often on the sharp side but sometimes also on the flat side since the students extend the arm too deliberately and too far.

2. In contrast to the above, a valve can be tuned to directly give accurate C, or if one tunes to low F, the C can be adjusted with ease since it is closer to the bumper.

3. The rationale of the two staffs is that it “sounds” more natural in 6th position. I don’t quite agree on this. Using valve should, in theory, make the overall taper of the horn more “continuous” than using 6th position, with long tube in outer slide’s inner diameter, then again stepped down to inner slide’s inner diameter. Nevermind the taper, I always feel the C and low F in 6th position sound more “nasal” and are more prone to break up than those played with valve.

I don’t deny that trombonists should not bypass slide technique, and one should be able to use 6th and 7th positions accurately, along with other alternate positions. But for this I don’t think the 6th position should be the default position.

Am I in the wrong here?

Seems to me the default depends on whether or not you have a valve.

I have no idea of the percentage of 6th-8th grade trombone players play a horn with a valve, but from what I've seen, around here it's vanishingly small. And even those who do need to develop the facility to play those notes in 6th and 7th.

1. If you don't have an attachment, where do you play C or B? Shouldn't you be teaching that? There was a noted teacher here in Boston who used to disable his students' F-attachments until they were comfortable playing the "open" horn. Then he let them start using the attachment.

2. Some F valves have a very different feel from the open horn, probably due to the way the tubing is bent. It can sometimes cause a change in timbre.

3. Note that C and F using the valve are in slightly different positions. If you have F in tune at the bumpers, the C needs to be out a short distance on the slide. If you have C in tune at the bumpers, the low F is too flat to serve in critical situations.

That said, Byron McCollough, who was a short person, started playing bass trombone because he "didn't have a 6th position". He was Bass Trombone of the Pittsburgh symphony for many years.

For a raw beginner it probably doesn't matter what you do. Advanced students need to be made aware of the differences.

I use the valve as much as I can but some passages need 6th and 7th.

To make things clear - I teach the students to play 6th and 7th positions. It is the basics. And the newcomers almost always start on straight horns (since the band director, and also I, don’t trust them enough to let them use the more expensive horns with rotor until they learn their basics and band manners). I just tell them that if they have valve, they should use it, except when the passage demands 6th or 7th. I also regularly teach them to use alternate positions.

In my school’s band, there are many horns with valves, so normally the students upgrade around grade 7 or 8. Some good ones upgrade early, in grade 6, but not before they are acquainted with straight horn. And, yes, if in rare circumstance a student gets a horn with valve from the start, I tell them to “lock” the valve until they learn the 7 positions also.

Fur tuning, I normally tell them that tuning to low F is the best, since C is normally higher and needs correction downward. But if they are sure the song has no low F, then they can tune to C.

[quote="sirisobhakya"]In my school’s band, there are many horns with valves, so normally the students upgrade around grade 7 or 8.[/quote]

This would be a fine age to discard the concept of "default position" entirely. It's just a crutch to help music happen before the student understands the whole position chart.

This is a pet peeve of mine.

My opinion is that there are no "default" or "alternate" positions, and teaching default/alternate positions negatively affects learning and playing as it changes the psychology to favor or disfavor playing notes in particular positions.

IMHO there are no alternate positions. It is simply a fact that notes can be played in multiple positions, and the "correct" position is whichever one makes playing that particular note in the context of the music the easiest.

Sometimes notes in different positions tend to sound different, but it's your job to make them sound the same.

Choice of positions comes down to context... how it relates to what's before and after it. Make it work smoothly in its physical/mechanical way and it will be smooth and make sense musically. If your slide is coming in, play it in 1st. If your slide is going out, play it in 6th. Also consider what the next note is, in the same way. Try to keep slide motions short and/or moving in the same direction.

There is no default except to make it work well and sound good.

I do think of some positions as the default positions and the only reason for that is how they are introduced to beginners. When I was a teacher I introduced a :bassclef: :line5: on 2:nd position and didn't even mention it can be found on 6th position and Bb (b) :bassclef: :space5: I taught to be on 1st position and never mentioned 5:th position to be a choice. If they continue they need to learn the alternate positions too because they are important, but they are only important in time. When it comes to C I always taught that to be on 6th position because no student I had started on a f-attachment horn. Maybe these things has changed now. I stopped to teach 1999.

If you do not think of teaching and the logical introduction of new notes, and only consider the physics of the horn then there are no default positions. You should choose what's best because of context. I think if the sound on 6th and 7th position Is bad then these notes should not be avoided but more practiced. Are they played at the right spot?

/Tom

Why carry all the additional mass of the valve if you don't use it? Tone difference between positions is a real concern but that can be practiced away.

As a self-taught amateur player, my only trombone is a straight tenor. Even as a baritone student I was never taught about alternate positions. It was in my self education on improving my trumpet that I first learned about alternate fingerings/positions. Use them occasionally on trumpet, a little more often on trombone, especially on the notes above the staff. Use them even more on my 4 valve euph. I think all students should have some guidance concerning alternate positions/fingerings. Alternating between the C first shown and the F above it is a no brainer, encountered that yesterday on trombone.

As a person that is 5’12”, I have no trouble reaching 7th position and even a little beyond, just not enough to get a low Eb. I can get trumpet down to that, using 3rd valve trigger and just a little lip.

[quote="tbdana"]This is a pet peeve of mine.

My opinion is that there are no "default" or "alternate" positions, and teaching default/alternate positions negatively affects learning and playing as it changes the psychology to favor or disfavor playing notes in particular positions.

IMHO there are no alternate positions. It is simply a fact that notes can be played in multiple positions, and the "correct" position is whichever one makes playing that particular note in the context of the music the easiest.[/quote]

^

This.

The valves are there to be used. They feel different than open horn. But to the public, there is probably no big difference. I think it's probably a good idea to practice both. Get used to both options. So I recommend stretching your arm out as far as you can, but don't hesitate to use the valve.

Leif

Sawadee ka. Since it is the last Monday in July, I'll begin my post with this out of respect for Vajiralongkorn.



Okay, on to the trombone...

Your two staff members are wrong, in my opinion. And so are you, because all three of you are finding a "default" place to play that C. You don't say what age the trombone students in your school are. But I would teach from the very first lesson that many notes can be found in different places on the horn and we're going to learn them all. And by the time they've been playing for three months I'd be teaching them other positions for notes, including trigger usage.

Students should be taught from very early on to play the entire instrument, top to bottom, inside and out, without favoring any position. Kids are smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. Very early you can ask them, "Play me a C without the trigger, and then with the trigger," and do that for all the notes. You wouldn't teach a language by giving them only one verb, so why would you teach them trombone with only one position for a note?

And I would absolutely never use the word "alternate" position. Many people go their whole lives without becoming fluent with note positions because they were taught that there is a "main" position and "alternate" positions, and they never see a need to go to an "alternate." But if they learn from the beginning without the concept of "default" or "alternate" positions, it becomes second nature to play a given note wherever it works best in that context.

/soap box

[quote="Savio"]But to the public, there is probably no big difference.

Leif[/quote]

I second that, after the last song one Sunday, the leader turned around to me and said “That trumpet sounded great on the last song!” I said “Thanks, but I was playing my euphonium”.

[quote="BrassSection"]As a person that is 5’12” ...[/quote]

Is this what you meant to say?

Thank you all. It is interesting to see many viewpoints.

For additional information on band scene of my school (and the vast majority of school bands in Thailand):

- Students normally start in grade 6 or 7, except in schools that has elementary band program which normally start in grade 4. My school band starts at grade 6.

- In contrast to some western school band, most students have little to no prior knowledge of band instrument. Some cannot even read music. I, for instance, at the time of joining the band back in 2004, could read treble clef but cannot read bass clef nor read rhythms accurately. However, recently since the parents are more well-off than in the past, some students has studied piano or violin prior to joining. Most don't have their own instrument, and I personally discourage buying since standard band instruments are relatively expensive when taking Thai income into account (average salaryman would make around $1500-2000 a month at the time his/her child is in grade 6). Private teacher is out of question. Being able to afford specialized staff for each section is a privilage only some of the larger schools can enjoy. Even with specialized staff, vast difference in experience and skill among the students makes teaching them challenging. Imagine having to teach a near-pro 11th grader at the same time with newcomer 6th grader.

- My school band practice every day from 16.30 - 18.30. Wednesday and Thursday is marching practice. No weekend session. But many students end up practicing only 3 days a week, the bare minimum set by the band director. Some schools practice more, many less. Some can only practice in the morning before class or at lunch break, potentially less than 1 hour each. This is sometimes, especially in remote areas, due to the students' hous being to far and it is unsafe for them to stay until dark. But sometimes it is due to parents or even other teachers not wanting them to "concentrate too much on something that is not studying".

- In my school band, the students are expected to be able to play grade 1 song around 2 months after joining. Mind you, they are taught almost from zero in this time frame: breathing, embouchure, long tones, tonguing, basic music reading, basic marching, etc. Some schools even require the students to play school march and/or national anthem, which is normally around grade 1.5 - 2.5 depending on the arrangement. The overall mindset is not "building good foundation" but to get the students to be ready for use in school ceremonies as quickly as possible, otherwise the band director might be reprimanded by the school management (high cost of instrument and time invested but no obvious return). This is the recurring problem in most school, especially smaller or more remote school.

- As a result, the students has quite limited time to learn the basics, and thus "default positions" becomes a thing. Some even refuse to use "alternate" positions on the ground that they "aren't used to them", because they have practiced with "default positions" all the time it becomes muscle memory for them already.

- Ear training is limited. Back in my time, the band had only light marching session one day a week, so we had time to do ear-training twice a week. Now ear training is done only during summer holiday practice session. So expecting a student to listen and adjust the 6th and 7th positions, with no visual aid, is not quite realistic. Some schools don't even know what ear training is. And Buddhist temples have no singing like in churches, which I think helps with ear training quite a lot.

[quote="BrassSection"]As a person that is 5’12”, I have no trouble reaching 7th position and even a little beyond, just not enough to get a low Eb. I can get trumpet down to that, using 3rd valve trigger and just a little lip.[/quote]

You mean 6' right? :biggrin:

Average Thai students in grade 6-7 is only around 150-165 cm (5' - 5' 5"). I am 5' 10", which is almost the upper ceiling of normal Thai height.

[quote="tbdana"]Sawadee ka. Since it is the last Monday in July, I'll begin my post with this out of respect for Vajiralongkorn.


[/quote]

Thank you. Some love him, some don't quite :shuffle:

For me I love his father since Rama IX had done so many good things to help Thai people. Rama X (Vajiralongkorn) also has done many goods, but his personal life and personality is considered by some to be more controversial than his father.

I remember playing some of Bhumibol's compositions at a birthday celebration for him in Washington DC many years ago. He wrote some nice tunes.

In Sweden when I started students they were 9 years old and back then we did not start in a band. We started in small groups. A group could be 2-3 students on trumpet or trombone. A lesson could be 30-40 minutes depending on size of the group. After half a year I started a band and then woodwind and drums completed. Here a teacher usually is either brass, woodwind or drums in US as I understand you have ONE who teach all? The model here later changed and we started a band with all instruments right away, parallel with group. The band was then a collaboration of two ore more teachers covering all the instruments. Our books introduce notes in an order that makes it easy to play the easiest songs. The books has rythmic songs with just one note and then two note songs. The "real" songs need at least three notes. With five songs you have a good repertoire. At that stage we often introduce the alternate F on pos 6 because this is a help a student need in the beginning. In Sweden we let students borrow (hire) instruments as they start. This is to make it possible also for families on a budget. We did not supply instruments with f-att in the beginning at the time I stopped in 1999. Usually a student buy his own instrument after a year with the advice from his teacher. At that time an f-att trombone in brass will still be heavy to hold for a 10 year old so often a straight horn was the advice. When students continue to play they often reach Bb over the staff within a year so then they have a register between first pos (b) :bassclef: :line2: and first pos (b) :bassclef: :space5: and they play songs in the key of F and Eb. 5th position is introduced at first with f# but this note isn't very common in the beginning. It is because a #f often implies the key of G if not g-minor and then the material of notes needs B on 4th. This important note needs to be introduded early but many students haven't got that streangth when they are ten. To introduce Bb at 5th position is absolutely something you could do at the same time as Bb on first but if you do then all books we use still tell the student that fifth pos is an alternate position for Bb on first. It's not that easy to change what's printed in hundered of books. If you teach adults it is different from teaching kids and this is from experience. Anyone who starts to teach have to face pedagogical issues that depends on context, and you can not just present facts you need something to motivate your facts too and you need to make it fun. Adults is different. Here I still need to accept musicians use the name H for B-natural, and if a flat is used they then call that note B. The B english speaking people call B-flat (Bb). Such things do also exist in books and need to be addressed. It might need a lot of reasoning to explain a mistake like that and why it is considered a mistake. When I stopped to teach many educaters still teach the old names. I hope we in the future can fully adopt to what's more sense and not to be that conservative about what's history. Sure there will be a lot of litterature that will be confusing but this will be confusing anyway. It was an old error that needed to be corrected. My way of looking at it.

Since we did not start nine year old students on f-att trombones we had no need to consider teaching C on T1, B on T2 and Bb on T3. Today when things are different scools might see it differently. There are now cheap plastic horns that are easy to hold for nine year olds so it might be better for a lot of reasons to start on a cheap easy to hold f-att horn. To use these in our education also the books need to change because you get a lot more notes within reach. You could introduce C on T1 and B on T2 and suddenly you can play a lot more tunes within the staff. This could help motivation a lot, because students need to play melodies and get a repertoire. When I think of this a g-att plastic horn would do even better. Suddenly you can get ALL notes within the staff without passing the bell with the slide. With short arms you could play any tune. I know some has tried to start students on alto but a g-att horn would be a lot better, what I think.

In the end you should learn the notes on any position *even learn the factitious notes) because it helps, but I do not see a problem to refer to some positions as regular positions and some as alternate. When you are ready to learn alternate positions you need to work at them so you can use them everywhere it helps. If you are introduced to all the alternate positions at once, when you learn a new note it is better, but the books to do it didn't exist in 1999, maybe they do now. If you're school supplies f-att plastic trombones you need new education material to make a better use of the trigger. You need completely new material because the books are made for straight trombones. That would be a good thing to do, to mordenize the books to make better use of the tools that's now available. Unfortunately there are not much money to get from doing this, and the plastic f-att trombones need to be a part of the whole concept right from the start. Could be interesting if it happens. I think the idea must be established from the collage educational system for music teachers/trombone teachers before it becomes comnon practice. Before this happens I think you better write your own book and start this journey on your own. Not much money in this but you might do some important grass root revolution to the education system that eventually will hit the collage teachers and be picked up there, but don't count on it to be easy. Unfortunately there are not many who choose to start on a brass instrument in the public music school and from those who start there are even fewer who choose the trombone. When I were a teacher I had one student on trombone for every tenth I got on trumpet. In tuba and french horn there were even fewer. To revolution teaching and write your new material based on all students start on a f-att plastic horn will be a slow process and before any evidence of a better result is there it will take years. How can a better result even be measured? Less who quit? Student can play more songs in less time? More audience on student concerts? More in tge audience who appreciate the result?

Yes, a C on T1 can be a real opener, because it demands f-att and if you think of it a f-att can do a lot of good to all early trombone teaching IF the f-att makes the instrument easier to play and still is easy to hold. That's what I get when I'm reasoning like this, and even better with g-att. Go for it! :good:

/Tom

This thread inspired me to start a new thread about the hidden demands that makes it possible to consider T1 as a default position for C. If yes, it grows into a bigger issue since such a consideration naturally implies the default trombone for all students who start is they start on a f-att trombone. That is big issue and needs another thread.

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=36792">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=36792</LINK_TEXT>

/Tom

IMO.

I have recently come to think that those of us in the amateur class should almost always play C, B, and possibly Bb with the trigger if we have one. That's partly as a result of playing along with Markey's Low register series and trying to stay in tune with him, and partly from listening to what notes my peers play in tune best.

It is just FAR easier to do a slight adjustment of the handslide in trigger positions than way out at the end of the slide. You're not only reaching awkwardly (I have to turn slightly sideways to get 7th) but you're potentially pulling on the embouchure.

That doesn't apply to you who are pros of course. Or at least not as much.

[quote="Doug Elliott"]I remember playing some of Bhumibol's compositions at a birthday celebration for him in Washington DC many years ago. He wrote some nice tunes.[/quote]

Thank you. Some haters say that he copied from some western artist. I disagree. His songs, especially the "jazzier" number, is quite complicated harmonically, and I have not heard any song in Jazz standards that sounds like them.

[quote="imsevimse"]This thread inspired me to start a new thread about the hidden demands that makes it possible to consider T1 as a default position for C. If yes, it grows into a bigger issue since such a consideration naturally implies the default trombone for all students who start is they start on a f-att trombone. That is big issue and needs another thread.

<LINK_TEXT text="viewtopic.php?t=36792">https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=36792</LINK_TEXT>

/Tom[/quote]

I am glad my thread becomes an inspiration. Will reply on your thread!

[quote="timothy42b"]IMO.

I have recently come to think that those of us in the amateur class should almost always play C, B, and possibly Bb with the trigger if we have one. That's partly as a result of playing along with Markey's Low register series and trying to stay in tune with him, and partly from listening to what notes my peers play in tune best.

It is just FAR easier to do a slight adjustment of the handslide in trigger positions than way out at the end of the slide. You're not only reaching awkwardly (I have to turn slightly sideways to get 7th) but you're potentially pulling on the embouchure.

That doesn't apply to you who are pros of course. Or at least not as much.[/quote]

Agreed. Adjusting closer positions is much easier than 6th or 7th.

I want to add a question and make one statement to this topic:

What is the default for a 4 valve instrument, 1 and 3 or just 4? I may be off here as I do not know if the 4th valve is tuned differently.

I'm starting to agree with everyone that is saying there should be no default. I remember an older Bass trombonist saying he was impressed with a younger player playing Pines of Rome as the use of (alternate) positions was very efficient.

I'm old and very use to playing my dependent Bass Trombone and now that I'm playing Contra bass I never think about playing the second valve alone as a default and I think it slows me down reading new music.

If I were teaching a new player I would 100% teach that both positions are the same and to use what ever one they want to use . That way you just play what makes sense. I use to hear all the time that the open horn sounds better than the trigger but is that only because you practice on the open horn way more than the trigger side?

I think the answer is the same. There is no default, use whatever makes sense in each particular situation. 1 and 3 can be awkward when 2 is involved quickly before or after... at least for an occasional valve player.

[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="BrassSection" post_id="249117" time="1722285890" user_id="15201">
As a person that is 5’12” ...[/quote]

Is this what you meant to say?
</QUOTE>

Yes. Before I had my knees replaced in 2021 I had to go through a series of examinations since I hadn’t been to a doctor since the 90s for rotator repairs. First visit they were asking my history and asked for my height, said “I used to be 5’12”, but now only 5’10.5” due to bowed legs and bone on bone knees. Took them a minute to figure out the 5 12 joke, but laughed when they got it. Used that several times with the same results. And yes, I’m back to 4’ 24” since my knees have been replaced and the bow is out of my legs.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]I want to add a question and make one statement to this topic:

What is the default for a 4 valve instrument, 1 and 3 or just 4? I may be off here as I do not know if the 4th valve is tuned differently.[/quote]

On my 4 valve euph I have 4th valved tuned to equal 1&3. With all valves properly tuned to “proper” notes it works fine for me any time I use 4th in combinations with the other valves, and often I use just 4. To throw some twists into it, tuning slide on 3rd valve is so long you can tune it to equal 2&3. Done it for fun, but never actually played that way.

Optional fingerings worked great for me once, euph 2nd valve stuck in the down position, song was in D so I could play every note I needed with some optional fingerings! Luckily that was practice, quick cleaning and fresh oil and I had no further issues.

No matter which of my primary 3 horns, I mostly use alternates once I hit notes above the F above the staff. (G for trumpet players) French horn…tons of optional fingerings on that horn!

[quote="BrassSection"]tuning slide on 3rd valve is so long you can tune it to equal 2&3.[/quote]

I suspect this is why low Eb :line0: occasionally appears in concert band euph parts.

[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="BrassSection" post_id="249340" time="1722451522" user_id="15201">
tuning slide on 3rd valve is so long you can tune it to equal 2&3.[/quote]

I suspect this is why low Eb :line0: occasionally appears in concert band euph parts.
</QUOTE>

Since a majority of my playing is working off the keyboard/guitar chord sheet, I choose the notes I play. Do play the low Eb on a regular basis, but only on trumpet using 1-2-3 plus extending the third valve slide, or on euph using 1-2-4. I have never encountered it on any of the “Real” music I occasionally have for an ensemble, with the exception of when I’m playing tuba.

IIRC, Buddy Baker believed in keeping half-steps on the same partial (for tonal music, at least).

Putting A-sharp in 5th for B major scales is nicer than going 1st to 4th.

With an F attachment, this would mean low A-sharp in 3rd on the valve going to B in 2nd.

For an independent bass, this means a D-flat / G-flat major scales would have in-the-staff D-flat and C in first and second on the G-flat valve, rather than go first-fifth or F-valve to G-flat valve. Putting the B-flat in 3rd on the F-valve and then going to 6th for the C isn't bad either - sometimes jiggling back and forth between a few positions isn't as comfortable as changing direction less often even if the jumps are wider.

Down an octave B-major and G-flat major scales pose a thorny question: play the low C-flat / B in 5&1/2 and then take the B-flat / A-sharp in 7th? Color is more consistent for the half-step, but then going from 7th on both valves to a pedal in 3rd feels pretty awkward (not that going from 5&1/2 to 1st is all that great either).

I don't think Buddy believed in "primary" and "alternate" positions so much as good patterns, practiced consistently.

[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="BrassSection" post_id="249340" time="1722451522" user_id="15201">
tuning slide on 3rd valve is so long you can tune it to equal 2&3.[/quote]

I suspect this is why low Eb :line0: occasionally appears in concert band euph parts.
</QUOTE>

Maybe, but there's another possibility.

A lot of euphs, especially non-compensated ones, have a very solid low Eb in open. It doesn't feel/speak like a falset tone. Tuba can be the same.

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="AtomicClock" post_id="249345" time="1722452886" user_id="17161">

I suspect this is why low Eb :line0: occasionally appears in concert band euph parts.[/quote]

Maybe, but there's another possibility.

A lot of euphs, especially non-compensated ones, have a very solid low Eb in open. It doesn't feel/speak like a falset tone. Tuba can be the same.
</QUOTE>

My euph is non-compensated, never heard that one, I’ll be trying that out Sunday! Euph, French horn, and trombone at church, just bring trumpet home to keep my chops. (And I am uncompensated too, I don’t get paid to play)

[quote="timothy42b"]<QUOTE author="AtomicClock" post_id="249345" time="1722452886" user_id="17161">

I suspect this is why low Eb :line0: occasionally appears in concert band euph parts.[/quote]

Maybe, but there's another possibility.

A lot of euphs, especially non-compensated ones, have a very solid low Eb in open. It doesn't feel/speak like a falset tone. Tuba can be the same.
</QUOTE>

I notice that too on a few old Boosey & Hawkes and Besson. On a Yamaha (3 valve student model) it seems harder to find and center well.