Swing 8ths
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Here's a little tip on how best to play swing 8ths. This is directed to legit players for when they have to play jazz and want to sound authentic at it and at amateurs in general who IMHO have been taught the wrong way to play swing 8ths.
1. Timing and groove: We are taught to play swing 8ths like triplet 8ths, or even dotted 8ths and 16ths. Even today you'll see swing taught like this:
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But this is wrong in the modern era. That notion comes from the 1920s and '30s when swing was brand new, and it has stubbornly stuck around in casual circles. But real jazz players don't play swing 8ths that way.
Modernly, swing 8ths are played closer to straight 8ths, with the length difference between two eighths in one beat getting more "straight" as the tempo increases. Indeed, the more compelling groove modernly is to play them almost even. That sounds more hip, cool, and sophisticated. Playing them with the old rhythm sounds corny and stilted, modernly, and should be avoided unless you're trying to play in a specific 1920s style.
2. Emphasis: I can't tell you how often I hear legit and amateur trombonists put emphasis on the downbeats -- first of the two 8th notes in a beat -- which gives a very up and down feel, an almost marching band square groove. If you've ever heard Joe Alessi try to play jazz, you've heard this.
Downbeats are naturally the strongest beats in music, and to emphasize that further by playing the downbeats stronger gives a very stilted feel to the music, which defeats the whole notion of swing. Jazz should have a rolling feel. And the way to do that is to de-emphasize the downbeats and to put the emphasis on the 2nd 8th note in each beat. So, in a run of four 8th notes you would emphasize (play louder) the 2nd and 4th notes, the off-beats. Indeed, often you can almost ghost the 1st and 3rd 8th notes (on the beats). Modernly, we emphasize the 2nd and 4th eighth notes (the "and" of each beat), and we simultaneously emphasize the 2nd and 4th beats in the measure. Not the 1st and 3rd.
Emphasizing the off-beats makes it feel like the notes are falling into the next downbeat, which gives a far smoother and more interesting jazz feel. It's almost like a suspension and resolution, the way emphasizing the off-beats works in leading one beat into the next. This can take a minute to get the hang of, but putting the emphasis on the off-beats gives you a great and natural jazz groove.
3. Putting it together: Emphasizing the "and" of each beat and the 2nd and 4th beats of the measure while playing the notes closer to straight 8ths is the modern way to swing. In fact, with the off-beat emphasis you can swing quite hard while playing absolutely even 8ths at a moderate tempo or faster. So ditch the marching band strength of the downbeats in favor of the rolling suspension-resolution feel of movement and you'll sound like a real jazzer.
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Thanks for coming to my TED Talk! :D
1. Timing and groove: We are taught to play swing 8ths like triplet 8ths, or even dotted 8ths and 16ths. Even today you'll see swing taught like this:
<ATTACHMENT filename="Screenshot 2024-07-30 at 7.51.16 AM.png" index="1">
But this is wrong in the modern era. That notion comes from the 1920s and '30s when swing was brand new, and it has stubbornly stuck around in casual circles. But real jazz players don't play swing 8ths that way.
Modernly, swing 8ths are played closer to straight 8ths, with the length difference between two eighths in one beat getting more "straight" as the tempo increases. Indeed, the more compelling groove modernly is to play them almost even. That sounds more hip, cool, and sophisticated. Playing them with the old rhythm sounds corny and stilted, modernly, and should be avoided unless you're trying to play in a specific 1920s style.
2. Emphasis: I can't tell you how often I hear legit and amateur trombonists put emphasis on the downbeats -- first of the two 8th notes in a beat -- which gives a very up and down feel, an almost marching band square groove. If you've ever heard Joe Alessi try to play jazz, you've heard this.
Downbeats are naturally the strongest beats in music, and to emphasize that further by playing the downbeats stronger gives a very stilted feel to the music, which defeats the whole notion of swing. Jazz should have a rolling feel. And the way to do that is to de-emphasize the downbeats and to put the emphasis on the 2nd 8th note in each beat. So, in a run of four 8th notes you would emphasize (play louder) the 2nd and 4th notes, the off-beats. Indeed, often you can almost ghost the 1st and 3rd 8th notes (on the beats). Modernly, we emphasize the 2nd and 4th eighth notes (the "and" of each beat), and we simultaneously emphasize the 2nd and 4th beats in the measure. Not the 1st and 3rd.
Emphasizing the off-beats makes it feel like the notes are falling into the next downbeat, which gives a far smoother and more interesting jazz feel. It's almost like a suspension and resolution, the way emphasizing the off-beats works in leading one beat into the next. This can take a minute to get the hang of, but putting the emphasis on the off-beats gives you a great and natural jazz groove.
3. Putting it together: Emphasizing the "and" of each beat and the 2nd and 4th beats of the measure while playing the notes closer to straight 8ths is the modern way to swing. In fact, with the off-beat emphasis you can swing quite hard while playing absolutely even 8ths at a moderate tempo or faster. So ditch the marching band strength of the downbeats in favor of the rolling suspension-resolution feel of movement and you'll sound like a real jazzer.
<ATTACHMENT filename="Screenshot 2024-07-30 at 7.56.02 AM.png" index="0">
Thanks for coming to my TED Talk! :D
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I learned somewhere that the proportion of the note lengths changes with the speed, so for fast stuff, the 1/8th notes are almost equal length, otherwise fast swing and bebop would be terribly bumpy. For slower tempos, you get closer to the 2/3 1/3 feel. You see a lot of professional arrangements notated in the dotted eighth/sixteenth style, which to me makes it much harder to read.
As a young player, I just didn't really get it. No matter what I played, it sounded square as hell. It took a lot of listening and playing along to actually get it. I grew up listening to Elvis, the Carpenters, Neil Sedaka and classical music. So pretty corny and square. If you listen to a lot of hymns, some congregations actually swing the 1/8th notes, or at least used to before the whole "praise band" epidemic.
As a young player, I just didn't really get it. No matter what I played, it sounded square as hell. It took a lot of listening and playing along to actually get it. I grew up listening to Elvis, the Carpenters, Neil Sedaka and classical music. So pretty corny and square. If you listen to a lot of hymns, some congregations actually swing the 1/8th notes, or at least used to before the whole "praise band" epidemic.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
Listen to the music you wish to emulate. Then attempt to play it over and over until you get it. As simple as that.
- ithinknot
- Posts: 1339
- Joined: Jul 24, 2020
Unvarying ratios, whatever the numbers, are for MIDI and the charmless. Everything else is notes inégales
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="hyperbolica"]I learned somewhere that the proportion of the note lengths changes with the speed, so for fast stuff, the 1/8th notes are almost equal length, otherwise fast swing and bebop would be terribly bumpy. For slower tempos, you get closer to the 2/3 1/3 feel. You see a lot of professional arrangements notated in the dotted eighth/sixteenth style, which to me makes it much harder to read.[/quote]
Good point. I think I made the same point, though not as well as you just did.
Good point. I think I made the same point, though not as well as you just did.
Modernly, swing 8ths are played closer to straight 8ths, with the length difference between two eighths in one beat getting more "straight" as the tempo increases.
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="ithinknot"]Unvarying ratios, whatever the numbers, are for MIDI and the charmless. Everything else is notes inégales[/quote]
:idea:
:idea:
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Jazz didn't invent swing or improvisation or chord substitutions
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Great photo! Should be on the wall of every trombonist’s practice space.
A local instructor described swing as an egg rolling down a hill. Nice visual I thought.
A local instructor described swing as an egg rolling down a hill. Nice visual I thought.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Just about every non-jazz musician approaching jazz has a hard time understanding just how both legato and accented good "swing" can be.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
<YOUTUBE id="MV5apkGSkfM">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5apkGSkfM</YOUTUBE>
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
<YOUTUBE id="51bsCRv6kI0">[media]https://youtu.be/51bsCRv6kI0?si=m49vbxWwK5laL5VD</YOUTUBE>
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
Two problems I notice most:
Swinging too hard (too much syncopation)
Making the notes too even in sound
Swinging too hard (too much syncopation)
Making the notes too even in sound
- OneTon
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Nov 02, 2021
I understood Dana’s original post immediately. The “2/3 1/3 feel” was a little abstract, especially if it had been stand alone. OTH, when select lead trumpets are present, we swing hard on “Shiny Stockings.” I would be at a loss to describe it. Artie Shaw has a short primer on it that may still be in print and available.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Here's an example of modern swing feel with a slow tempo. Notes not even, but not triplet either, emphasis on off-beats. This also demonstrates laying back on the beat, which I didn't discuss, but there it is.
<YOUTUBE id="9IEYQNX_-ZE" t="283">https://youtu.be/9IEYQNX_-ZE?si=36qi308mvVVunjM3&t=283</YOUTUBE>
And here's an example of a modern swing feel at a fast tempo. 8th notes straight even. (BTW, as an aside this was done in one take without rehearsal, and it's mis-titled as the tune isn't "Low Life," it's "Not Really The Blues.")
<YOUTUBE id="Tk3BnHc9gMU" t="25">https://youtu.be/Tk3BnHc9gMU?si=Tg_Jq1AsmAeFqtmV&t=25</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="9IEYQNX_-ZE" t="283">https://youtu.be/9IEYQNX_-ZE?si=36qi308mvVVunjM3&t=283</YOUTUBE>
And here's an example of a modern swing feel at a fast tempo. 8th notes straight even. (BTW, as an aside this was done in one take without rehearsal, and it's mis-titled as the tune isn't "Low Life," it's "Not Really The Blues.")
<YOUTUBE id="Tk3BnHc9gMU" t="25">https://youtu.be/Tk3BnHc9gMU?si=Tg_Jq1AsmAeFqtmV&t=25</YOUTUBE>
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
That second one, Dana, sounds more like bebop or hard bop than a swing style.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]That second one, Dana, sounds more like bebop or hard bop than a swing style.[/quote]
Well, it's an old Woody Herman tune. I think that, modernly, charts marked "swing" at a fast tempo are played like this whether you'd characterize them as bop or swing or whatever. Of course, it's not old big band dance music. It's not from the swing era. We can discuss crossover between jazz sub-genres. But the style is a modern swing, just at blazing speed.
I don't know if this link will work but let's see. This is a demented version of I Got Rhythm...
<SPOTIFY id="track/1TSkH8WgHalDLS8B5odZTe"><LINK_TEXT text="https://open.spotify.com/track/1TSkH8Wg ... 2b264447a2">https://open.spotify.com/track/1TSkH8WgHalDLS8B5odZTe?go=1&sp_cid=e0d7a5fbf76bb3f367b08177f71a0f71&intent=addToLibrary&utm_source=embed_player_v&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=49b7d62b264447a2</LINK_TEXT></SPOTIFY>
Well, it's an old Woody Herman tune. I think that, modernly, charts marked "swing" at a fast tempo are played like this whether you'd characterize them as bop or swing or whatever. Of course, it's not old big band dance music. It's not from the swing era. We can discuss crossover between jazz sub-genres. But the style is a modern swing, just at blazing speed.
I don't know if this link will work but let's see. This is a demented version of I Got Rhythm...
<SPOTIFY id="track/1TSkH8WgHalDLS8B5odZTe"><LINK_TEXT text="https://open.spotify.com/track/1TSkH8Wg ... 2b264447a2">https://open.spotify.com/track/1TSkH8WgHalDLS8B5odZTe?go=1&sp_cid=e0d7a5fbf76bb3f367b08177f71a0f71&intent=addToLibrary&utm_source=embed_player_v&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=49b7d62b264447a2</LINK_TEXT></SPOTIFY>
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Thank's for a good thread, tdana! You are right.
Often what make it swing is hard to talk about and explain. Either it swings or it doesn't. Your explanation is spot on. Besides I like the music. Bill is a favourite of mine I like the way he flioats on the accompaniment when he swings those long lines. He must have been a master of circular breathing because those lines are insane and his triplet cascades are phenomenal.
/Tom
Often what make it swing is hard to talk about and explain. Either it swings or it doesn't. Your explanation is spot on. Besides I like the music. Bill is a favourite of mine I like the way he flioats on the accompaniment when he swings those long lines. He must have been a master of circular breathing because those lines are insane and his triplet cascades are phenomenal.
/Tom
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="imsevimse"]Bill is a favourite of mine I like the way he flioats on the accompaniment when he swings those long lines. He must have been a master of circular breathing because those lines are insane and his triplet cascades are phenomenal.
/Tom[/quote]
Yes, Bill was indeed a master of circular breathing. It's one of many things I envied about him. He taught me how to circular breathe, but I'm not very good because allergies often keep me from breathing through my nose. But he could also just play really long phrases because he had a big lung capacity, breathed correctly, and was very efficient.
This is one of my favorite tunes of Bill just swinging with long gorgeous phrases, no circular breathing. It also shows great swing 8th note technique.
<YOUTUBE id="HmTiP0mPbYs">https://youtu.be/HmTiP0mPbYs?si=_EX9AVbl6ZCmr92H</YOUTUBE>
(I just want to mention that aside from Bill, all the very talented musicians on that cut were incredibly young. Jim Cox (piano) was 24, Tom Child (bass) was 22, and Chad Wackerman (drums) was 20 when this was recorded.)
Another valuable thing I learned from Bill on ballads is to take a really big breath and play right through the natural end of a phrase and into the next phrase. It's one of many techniques he used to become a truly great ballad player. He loved playing long phrases everywhere he could.
/Tom[/quote]
Yes, Bill was indeed a master of circular breathing. It's one of many things I envied about him. He taught me how to circular breathe, but I'm not very good because allergies often keep me from breathing through my nose. But he could also just play really long phrases because he had a big lung capacity, breathed correctly, and was very efficient.
This is one of my favorite tunes of Bill just swinging with long gorgeous phrases, no circular breathing. It also shows great swing 8th note technique.
<YOUTUBE id="HmTiP0mPbYs">https://youtu.be/HmTiP0mPbYs?si=_EX9AVbl6ZCmr92H</YOUTUBE>
(I just want to mention that aside from Bill, all the very talented musicians on that cut were incredibly young. Jim Cox (piano) was 24, Tom Child (bass) was 22, and Chad Wackerman (drums) was 20 when this was recorded.)
Another valuable thing I learned from Bill on ballads is to take a really big breath and play right through the natural end of a phrase and into the next phrase. It's one of many techniques he used to become a truly great ballad player. He loved playing long phrases everywhere he could.
- TomWest
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Apr 04, 2023
Dana, thanks for the “Ted Talk”. The Hans Groiner video makes a great point about interpretation of music. What we did with some of the members of the community band I play with was have them sit in with the swing band that is an extension of the concert band. It was really nice to hear them change from “straight” to “swing” using a little help from Mr. Basie “on, off, on”.
- Doubler
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Jan 07, 2019
Straight 8ths simplified: ONE and TWO and THREE and FOUR and
Swing 8ths simplified: one AND two AND three AND four AND
Practicing with a metronome and using the clicks for the offbeat can help assimilate this.
One of my first Jazz teachers said that once you "get" how to Swing, it's like a disease: you'll never get rid of it. He was so right! Sometimes I hear an interesting new tune and have a moment trying to figure out the beat. Then I realize that the beat is straight, and the tune becomes less interesting, because I was automatically listening in Swing beat mode.
Swing 8ths simplified: one AND two AND three AND four AND
Practicing with a metronome and using the clicks for the offbeat can help assimilate this.
One of my first Jazz teachers said that once you "get" how to Swing, it's like a disease: you'll never get rid of it. He was so right! Sometimes I hear an interesting new tune and have a moment trying to figure out the beat. Then I realize that the beat is straight, and the tune becomes less interesting, because I was automatically listening in Swing beat mode.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]Here's an example of modern swing feel with a slow tempo. Notes not even, but not triplet either, emphasis on off-beats. This also demonstrates laying back on the beat, which I didn't discuss, but there it is.
<YOUTUBE id="9IEYQNX_-ZE" t="283">https://youtu.be/9IEYQNX_-ZE?si=36qi308mvVVunjM3&t=283</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
To me this is perfectly on the triplets in combination with laying back. Try to sing along a triplet pattern and emphasize the last triplet note, it fits completely in there.
<YOUTUBE id="9IEYQNX_-ZE" t="283">https://youtu.be/9IEYQNX_-ZE?si=36qi308mvVVunjM3&t=283</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
To me this is perfectly on the triplets in combination with laying back. Try to sing along a triplet pattern and emphasize the last triplet note, it fits completely in there.
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
That recording of What Sammy Said is great.
It's also a good example to compare to other records - say of Count Basie, Bob Mintzner, Toskiko Akiyashi, Village Vanguard, etc., and lots of other large jazz ensembles (to pick a subset of all swing styles) that there is allowed variation in swing, especially if tied to regional variations.
Gordon Goodwin's "west coast" approach tends to be a bit more soft in articulation than the midwest style where I typically perform (Detroit), and East Coast can be a bit different yet. The Mel Lewis/Thad Jones orchestra could swing really hard and they had their own different way to do it.
A different example from a great local band:
<YOUTUBE id="PjiYSj9B0PQ">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjiYSj9B0PQ</YOUTUBE>
It's also a good example to compare to other records - say of Count Basie, Bob Mintzner, Toskiko Akiyashi, Village Vanguard, etc., and lots of other large jazz ensembles (to pick a subset of all swing styles) that there is allowed variation in swing, especially if tied to regional variations.
Gordon Goodwin's "west coast" approach tends to be a bit more soft in articulation than the midwest style where I typically perform (Detroit), and East Coast can be a bit different yet. The Mel Lewis/Thad Jones orchestra could swing really hard and they had their own different way to do it.
A different example from a great local band:
<YOUTUBE id="PjiYSj9B0PQ">
- Nolankberk
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Sep 06, 2023
A great trumpet player Tanya Darby said that accenting the top note of a phrase will usually give you subtle swing. Elliot Mason does a great job of this, and it's a super helpful tip for modern straight 8th jazz (thinking Coltrane's "a love supreme" style)
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
Im a little amazed how they did it in the 50 and 60. It was like some notes was hidden? It was an elegant style!
Leif
Leif
- JacobsianApostle
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mar 04, 2022
In general there’s too much focus on the ratios between eighth notes and not enough focus on learning rhythmic figures. Non jazz players should start by learning riffs. Once you have a vocabulary of typical rhythms then the 8th notes between the accents start to take care of themselves. There’s no one right way to swing 8th notes, but if someone doesn’t swing it’s due to a lack of rhythmic language.
There’s an effectively endless repertoire of riff-based blues heads out there. Time is better spent listening to and singing along with those recordings, then limiting oneself to trying to improvise solely with the rhythmic material that’s been internalized.
There’s an effectively endless repertoire of riff-based blues heads out there. Time is better spent listening to and singing along with those recordings, then limiting oneself to trying to improvise solely with the rhythmic material that’s been internalized.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Well, there is a right way sometimes. If you're in the section you have to copy the lead, even if the guy is a clod hopper. And if you're on lead, you have to ape the lead trumpet.
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
There's always a right way (at least one, maybe more than one), but what is right (and wrong) is situational; something that's right in one context may be wrong in another.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="JohnL"]There's always a right way (at least one, maybe more than one), but what is right (and wrong) is situational; something that's right in one context may be wrong in another.[/quote]
What is wrong is pretty much always wrong.
What is wrong is pretty much always wrong.
- JacobsianApostle
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mar 04, 2022
I said there isn’t one right way. Of course people have to play together, so what’s appropriate changes according to the style, tempo and people you’re playing with, and certainly in a section that becomes even more rigid.
But even then if you’re a soloist there are countless ways to feel eighths. Listen to the difference in time feel between Miles, Cannonball, Coltrane and Bill Evans on a sigle track like Love for Sale. That tension between different time feels is part of what makes the music feel good. It works because everyone is rhythmically literate in the style - returning to my earlier point.
But even then if you’re a soloist there are countless ways to feel eighths. Listen to the difference in time feel between Miles, Cannonball, Coltrane and Bill Evans on a sigle track like Love for Sale. That tension between different time feels is part of what makes the music feel good. It works because everyone is rhythmically literate in the style - returning to my earlier point.