"Alternate" positions?
- Gary
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Jan 11, 2019
I have no particular ambition to develop a sonorous symphonic sound, concentrating mainly on jazz and pop. I would probably be playing section in community symphonic bands, at best. My sound goal is similar to Nils Lindberg's (free lance) or James Pankow's (Chicago).
I am wondering if it's best to begin learning (brain implant) extended positions or begin right with learning alternate positions which, it seems to me, I would be using most of the time. That is positions closest to P1.
I realize you must walk before you run, but am not an impatient kid, rather an experienced professional (trumpet/French horn-about 50 years) and I also know how important it is to implant things into your subconscious right from the beginning.
Which would you recommend? Thanks, Gary
I am wondering if it's best to begin learning (brain implant) extended positions or begin right with learning alternate positions which, it seems to me, I would be using most of the time. That is positions closest to P1.
I realize you must walk before you run, but am not an impatient kid, rather an experienced professional (trumpet/French horn-about 50 years) and I also know how important it is to implant things into your subconscious right from the beginning.
Which would you recommend? Thanks, Gary
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
I would recommend brad edwards lip slurs to learn these unless you have a straight horn.
- Gary
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Jan 11, 2019
Surely a naïve question, but what do slurs of harmonics have to do with slide positions?
- Burgerbob
- Posts: 6327
- Joined: Apr 23, 2018
[quote="Gary"]Surely a naïve question, but what do slurs of harmonics have to do with slide positions?[/quote]
When you go higher in outer positions, you are using positions that you wouldn't usually use (think C above the bass clef in 6th, for instance). This will clue you in to where they are.
Basically, every position that you use for an octave below also works every octave higher... That's another way to look at it.
When you go higher in outer positions, you are using positions that you wouldn't usually use (think C above the bass clef in 6th, for instance). This will clue you in to where they are.
Basically, every position that you use for an octave below also works every octave higher... That's another way to look at it.
- Gary
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Jan 11, 2019
I don't know what "straight horn" is.
Can I use those exercises if I have an Urbie Green trombone?
Can I use those exercises if I have an Urbie Green trombone?
- Doubler
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Jan 07, 2019
Become familiar with all the positions, and then choose which ones work for any given passage in the charts you play. Logic and ease of movement will guide you. Since you've been playing brass for 50 years, you know that patience is paramount.
- PaulT
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Jul 18, 2018
Straight horn is one without an "F" attachment (they are crooked horns <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span> )
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
Gary, have attached a note/slide chart. Suggest that that you print it out and practice with it..
- dershem
- Posts: 117
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
If you can find a copy of Tom Malone's book, that will help a lot.
- Gary
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Jan 11, 2019
[quote="Pre59"]Gary, have attached a note/slide chart. Suggest that that you print it out and practice with it..[/quote]
Done, thanks.
Done, thanks.
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
[quote="Gary"]<QUOTE author="Pre59" post_id="76408" time="1548412000" user_id="3278">
Gary, have attached a note/slide chart. Suggest that that you print it out and practice with it..[/quote]
Done, thanks.
</QUOTE>
Hope you find it useful. I made this chart to help find patterns and scales for improvising, and I've laminated a copy and use a marker to save interesting phrases and intervals. For a long time I've been working on playing from the middle positions outward, rather than from the top positions downwards. So I treat the 3rd position as home which makes the lower positions more accessible and usable.
When I was a Cello student my teacher told me that the key to playing any stringed instrument is to know where every note is, in all positions, and I've tried to use this idea on the Tbn.
Caveat, anyone who's on an academic path may be wise to ignore the "3rd position as home" concept..
Gary, have attached a note/slide chart. Suggest that that you print it out and practice with it..[/quote]
Done, thanks.
</QUOTE>
Hope you find it useful. I made this chart to help find patterns and scales for improvising, and I've laminated a copy and use a marker to save interesting phrases and intervals. For a long time I've been working on playing from the middle positions outward, rather than from the top positions downwards. So I treat the 3rd position as home which makes the lower positions more accessible and usable.
When I was a Cello student my teacher told me that the key to playing any stringed instrument is to know where every note is, in all positions, and I've tried to use this idea on the Tbn.
Caveat, anyone who's on an academic path may be wise to ignore the "3rd position as home" concept..
- rllantin
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Jan 02, 2019
I typically practice improvised patterns using alternate positions such as some arpeggios and broken scales that lend themselves to “fretting” using muscle memory and a different starting point for the pattern. I will be more analytical / strategic as to which positions facilitate music expression if I am working on a piece of music I am learning and have the luxury of time to practice it. If I am sight reading I seem to default to whatever I have been able to ingrain for scales etc. which may not be optimal. Over time, you can default to alternate position more naturally as using them becomes “second nature”. I’d say practice and learn using alternate positions as part of your regular practice routine to improve your ability to use them “on demand”
- bimmerman
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
Another suggestion for practicing alternates (and how I learned them) is to buy the Buddy Baker method book, which really is just a book covering a scale-based daily routine. The value here is that alternate positions are written in when it makes contextual sense for the scale (eg, 3rd pos C -> 4th pos D -> 3rd pos Eb on Eb major, 3rd Eb->4th F->3rd Gb for Gb major), as well as the +/- tuning tendencies for a given partial so that you don't have to puzzle it out. I'm sure there are other books that do this too, as it isn't rocket surgery, but it is nicely presented IMO.
One of my earliest teachers had me work out of that book back in middle school, so using alternates has been ingrained in me since almost the beginning. You don't need the book itself if you add alternates into your scale exercises, but I find it a nice resource and still use it for a lot of my daily routine when I've got time to spare.
One of my earliest teachers had me work out of that book back in middle school, so using alternates has been ingrained in me since almost the beginning. You don't need the book itself if you add alternates into your scale exercises, but I find it a nice resource and still use it for a lot of my daily routine when I've got time to spare.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="rllantin"]I typically practice improvised patterns using alternate positions such as some arpeggios and broken scales that lend themselves to “fretting” using muscle memory and a different starting point for the pattern. I will be more analytical / strategic as to which positions facilitate music expression if I am working on a piece of music I am learning and have the luxury of time to practice it. If I am sight reading I seem to default to whatever I have been able to ingrain for scales etc. which may not be optimal. Over time, you can default to alternate position more naturally as using them becomes “second nature”. I’d say practice and learn using alternate positions as part of your regular practice routine to improve your ability to use them “on demand”[/quote]
Me2. Really low bar alt practice is to use them in bands on the easy parts. It's a great way to get your ear in tune with them.
In addition, as I work patterns, usually scalewise, I will be flexible with their interpretation at different places on the horn. Some stuff just does not work in some places. So I try to capture the "sense" of it with position/note/rhythm modifications. Some things work almost everywhere, like turns. Others, like 1357 2468 kind of things not so much. And then stuff like 53 42 is subject to endless variation.
Things to try include working a pattern in one tonality, like dominant, and then end on some part of tonic somehow. It may be that a little chromatic thing can make the move in an interesting way. Also 2 5 tonality. And circle the fourths. Things sometimes don't work well down 5 or up 4 so finding new things of the same sense (inversions with other modifications) can make it happen in the same neighborhood. Move up the structure.
It is interesting how much can be done without many alt positions. 4 mostly 5 sometimes. Some parts of the horn have a remarkable performance envelope, others not much. I really would have like to have seen Willie Dennis in action, for instance, as I can't think of a way to do his stuff without all the positions.
Me2. Really low bar alt practice is to use them in bands on the easy parts. It's a great way to get your ear in tune with them.
In addition, as I work patterns, usually scalewise, I will be flexible with their interpretation at different places on the horn. Some stuff just does not work in some places. So I try to capture the "sense" of it with position/note/rhythm modifications. Some things work almost everywhere, like turns. Others, like 1357 2468 kind of things not so much. And then stuff like 53 42 is subject to endless variation.
Things to try include working a pattern in one tonality, like dominant, and then end on some part of tonic somehow. It may be that a little chromatic thing can make the move in an interesting way. Also 2 5 tonality. And circle the fourths. Things sometimes don't work well down 5 or up 4 so finding new things of the same sense (inversions with other modifications) can make it happen in the same neighborhood. Move up the structure.
It is interesting how much can be done without many alt positions. 4 mostly 5 sometimes. Some parts of the horn have a remarkable performance envelope, others not much. I really would have like to have seen Willie Dennis in action, for instance, as I can't think of a way to do his stuff without all the positions.
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
I love challenging myself to play pieces entirely with positions no less than 4th. At least just for fun.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
Check out The Virtuoso Trombone by Mantia. It is old school; you might be able to download it free. It does an excellent job of exploring alternate positions in musical contexts.
I second the usefulness of the Baker method as it gives logical alternate positions in the scale section.
I second the usefulness of the Baker method as it gives logical alternate positions in the scale section.
- Gary
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Jan 11, 2019
Well after reading some of the posts and having Bones' book arrived, I realize that this is actually a more complex question than I originally thought. Thank you for your suggestions.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Not really though. Just learn all the notes you can play in any given partial. There will always be 7 (unless the partial is a really flat one), and the higher you go, the less they matter out past the bell.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I believe one of the difficulties with “alternate” positions is that they are taught as alternates, almost like second class citizens. I was fortunate that one of my teachers stressed learning and using them, but also not to think of them as “alternates,” but as equivalent positions.
I don’t have Buddy Baker’s book or Tom Malone’s book. I approach equivalent positions by listening for tone quality and intonation. Yes, the tone quality to the player will be slightly different, and the horn’s feedback is different. But actively using them to make them sound the same is the only way to develop facility with equivalent positions.
I believe this is like Joseph Alessi’s “tone cloning”: making every note you play sound exactly like the note you just played. I use equivalent positions into my warm-ups and scale routines. Paul Faulise uses a similar idea in his routine books by suggesting that bass trombonists use all possible equivalent slide and valve positions to develop flexibility and familiarity with equivalent positions.
I don’t have Buddy Baker’s book or Tom Malone’s book. I approach equivalent positions by listening for tone quality and intonation. Yes, the tone quality to the player will be slightly different, and the horn’s feedback is different. But actively using them to make them sound the same is the only way to develop facility with equivalent positions.
I believe this is like Joseph Alessi’s “tone cloning”: making every note you play sound exactly like the note you just played. I use equivalent positions into my warm-ups and scale routines. Paul Faulise uses a similar idea in his routine books by suggesting that bass trombonists use all possible equivalent slide and valve positions to develop flexibility and familiarity with equivalent positions.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
If I'm not misquoting his idea, Sam Burtis recommends your last point when practicing flexibilities. For instance, include the low f and the c in 1st position when doing those flexibilities. Soon you'll find ways of incorporating notes like the valved low Bb, a, and ab into what you do.
- henrikbe
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Apr 04, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]I believe this is like Joseph Alessi’s “tone cloning”: making every note you play sound exactly like the note you just played. I use equivalent positions into my warm-ups and scale routines. Paul Faulise uses a similar idea in his routine books by suggesting that bass trombonists use all possible equivalent slide and valve positions to develop flexibility and familiarity with equivalent positions.[/quote]
Is this possible, or even desirable? I've always thought the different partials have slightly different sounds, due to differences in the overtone series, which are due to the physics of the instrument, and thus not something we can control 100%. Though I'm far below that level, I suppose high level players might be able to use these differences to their advantage, to select "alternate" positions based on musical demands. E.g., if the harmony is F major, and you need to play an F3, its overtones would resonate better with the chord if you play it as 4th partial 6th position rather than 3rd partial 1st position. But I may be completely wrong here, this is just guesswork on my side.
Is this possible, or even desirable? I've always thought the different partials have slightly different sounds, due to differences in the overtone series, which are due to the physics of the instrument, and thus not something we can control 100%. Though I'm far below that level, I suppose high level players might be able to use these differences to their advantage, to select "alternate" positions based on musical demands. E.g., if the harmony is F major, and you need to play an F3, its overtones would resonate better with the chord if you play it as 4th partial 6th position rather than 3rd partial 1st position. But I may be completely wrong here, this is just guesswork on my side.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
No, you’re not wrong.
Is it possible? Yes, it is possible to make equivalent positions sound very much like their standard counterparts. Absolutely 100% like them? No, I don’t believe so, due to physics (acoustics and fluid dynamics—different partials, different ratio of cylindrical to conical tubing, etc.), like you said.
Is it desirable? Yes, I believe so, if that’s part of the aesthetic.
In modern “classical” music performance, one of the top values is to play each note with the same or as-similar-as-possible tone quality. Think of all the Bordogni, Blazevich, Kopprasch, Slama, etc., etude books where teachers emphasize uniform sound, articulation, dynamics, etc., Occasionally, a composer will ask the performer to play notes or a passage a specific way to emphasize differences between notes. Examples might be modern music where the composer specifies high Bb in 7th position, or asking string players to play the same note on different strings to emphasize differences. Even Edward Elgar asked the cello soloist to do this in his concerto.
On the other hand, in jazz, playing notes that have the same tone quality note-to-note is much less valued. (Some might even say that tone quality in jazz is over-rated... like Miles Davis...). In some eras of music (according to historically informed performance), differences in register and tone quality were encouraged. Think of the horn writing in the Classical and Romanitc era, where composers often wrote for the horn in a specific key in order to emphasize the sound and color of stopped notes within a chord.
Possible? Yes. Desirable? Yes, depending on the era and aesthetic.
Sorry about the long post... lots to think about...
Is it possible? Yes, it is possible to make equivalent positions sound very much like their standard counterparts. Absolutely 100% like them? No, I don’t believe so, due to physics (acoustics and fluid dynamics—different partials, different ratio of cylindrical to conical tubing, etc.), like you said.
Is it desirable? Yes, I believe so, if that’s part of the aesthetic.
In modern “classical” music performance, one of the top values is to play each note with the same or as-similar-as-possible tone quality. Think of all the Bordogni, Blazevich, Kopprasch, Slama, etc., etude books where teachers emphasize uniform sound, articulation, dynamics, etc., Occasionally, a composer will ask the performer to play notes or a passage a specific way to emphasize differences between notes. Examples might be modern music where the composer specifies high Bb in 7th position, or asking string players to play the same note on different strings to emphasize differences. Even Edward Elgar asked the cello soloist to do this in his concerto.
On the other hand, in jazz, playing notes that have the same tone quality note-to-note is much less valued. (Some might even say that tone quality in jazz is over-rated... like Miles Davis...). In some eras of music (according to historically informed performance), differences in register and tone quality were encouraged. Think of the horn writing in the Classical and Romanitc era, where composers often wrote for the horn in a specific key in order to emphasize the sound and color of stopped notes within a chord.
Possible? Yes. Desirable? Yes, depending on the era and aesthetic.
Sorry about the long post... lots to think about...
- Gary
- Posts: 283
- Joined: Jan 11, 2019
Just an off-topic question. "Some might even say that tone quality in jazz is over-rated... like Miles Davis." I have never heard this or seen it stated in any first-hand interviews or even second-hand anecdotes. What is your source for this?
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I think I went too far with that statement... I hope you’ll forgive the hyperbole...
I was specifically thinking of Leonard Feather, who stated that Miles Davis’ tone quality sounded “like walking on egg shells.” I was also thinking of the differences in tone quality that you hear in many different jazz trombonists, from classics to JJ Johnson, Kai Winding, Jimmy Knepper, Bill Watrous, Bill Harris, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, etc., to moderns like Michael Davis, Robin Eubanks, Steve Turre, Conrad Herwig, etc.
I do think it’s fair to say that in jazz, consistency of tone from note to note (tone cloning), as well as matching tone quality between players, isn’t valued as highly as in “classical” playing, or even commercial/studio playing.
I was specifically thinking of Leonard Feather, who stated that Miles Davis’ tone quality sounded “like walking on egg shells.” I was also thinking of the differences in tone quality that you hear in many different jazz trombonists, from classics to JJ Johnson, Kai Winding, Jimmy Knepper, Bill Watrous, Bill Harris, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, etc., to moderns like Michael Davis, Robin Eubanks, Steve Turre, Conrad Herwig, etc.
I do think it’s fair to say that in jazz, consistency of tone from note to note (tone cloning), as well as matching tone quality between players, isn’t valued as highly as in “classical” playing, or even commercial/studio playing.
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]
In modern music where the composer specifies high Bb in 7th position,
[/quote]
High Bb in 7th position? That would sound modern!
In modern music where the composer specifies high Bb in 7th position,
[/quote]
High Bb in 7th position? That would sound modern!
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
You can play high Bb in 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th. One of the extended techniques in Stewart Dempster’s book involves rapidly shifting between alternate positions. It’s more effective in the upper register. The technique is used in Folke Rabe’s Basta, and I think Brian Lynn uses it in his Doolalynastics... or maybe it’s Enrique Crespo’s Improvisation No. 1.
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
I had a quick listen to Folke Rabe’s Basta, and yes, I believe that I heard some Bb's in 7th, but these are in the "quantum" lower slide areas where with a strong enough embouchure, the normal harmonic series breaks down..
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
From Charles Reneau, bass trombonist, Oregon Symphony:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67Zk ... 4U_eLfaNwA">https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67ZkrBYaiPY64U_eLfaNwA</LINK_TEXT>
<LINK_TEXT text="https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67Zk ... 4U_eLfaNwA">https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67ZkrBYaiPY64U_eLfaNwA</LINK_TEXT>
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="Kbiggs"]From Charles Reneau, bass trombonist, Oregon Symphony:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67Zk ... 4U_eLfaNwA">https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67ZkrBYaiPY64U_eLfaNwA</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Thanks for sharing that - it's really excellent! In the Reinhardt Routines similar advice is suggested, especially to avoid alternate positions when playing loudly. I especially like final paragraph in the doc you shared.
<LINK_TEXT text="https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67Zk ... 4U_eLfaNwA">https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67ZkrBYaiPY64U_eLfaNwA</LINK_TEXT>[/quote]
Thanks for sharing that - it's really excellent! In the Reinhardt Routines similar advice is suggested, especially to avoid alternate positions when playing loudly. I especially like final paragraph in the doc you shared.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Pre59"]I had a quick listen to Folke Rabe’s Basta, and yes, I believe that I heard some Bb's in 7th, but these are in the "quantum" lower slide areas where with a strong enough embouchure, the normal harmonic series breaks down..[/quote]
I have this piece. I don't think there are more than one or two Bbs in 7th, but it does make extensive use of against the grain slurs.
I have this piece. I don't think there are more than one or two Bbs in 7th, but it does make extensive use of against the grain slurs.
- Pre59
- Posts: 372
- Joined: May 12, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."[/quote]
There's a certain warm diffuse sound that I sometimes like to to use that comes off longer positions. And re tuning, the D in 1st can often be a little flat, so is it any harder to play it in tune in 4th than an in tune B?
And where does this leave the F valve, is it inferior to the 6th position having more twists and turns etc?
The bottom line IMO is that in order to play with the people that would like to, you have to play like them, no matter what. That is, until with hard work, talent and luck it becomes you that others have to aspire to..
There's a certain warm diffuse sound that I sometimes like to to use that comes off longer positions. And re tuning, the D in 1st can often be a little flat, so is it any harder to play it in tune in 4th than an in tune B?
And where does this leave the F valve, is it inferior to the 6th position having more twists and turns etc?
The bottom line IMO is that in order to play with the people that would like to, you have to play like them, no matter what. That is, until with hard work, talent and luck it becomes you that others have to aspire to..
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."[/quote]
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="77771" time="1549734227" user_id="160">
The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."[/quote]
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris
</QUOTE>
:good:
--Andy in OKC
The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."[/quote]
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris
</QUOTE>
:good:
--Andy in OKC
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="blast"]<QUOTE author="baileyman" post_id="77771" time="1549734227" user_id="160">
The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."[/quote]
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris
</QUOTE>
Exactly. The idea that notes in further positions do not have good "resonance" deserves, well, no comment.
The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."[/quote]
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris
</QUOTE>
Exactly. The idea that notes in further positions do not have good "resonance" deserves, well, no comment.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]<QUOTE author="blast" post_id="77819" time="1549796638" user_id="52">
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris[/quote]
Exactly. The idea that notes in further positions do not have good "resonance" deserves, well, no comment.
</QUOTE>
I think I missed something, baileyman. You made a comment, blast made a counter-statement, and then you agreed with him. However, I don’t know whether blast’s comment changed your mind, or...?
At any rate, I think Charles Reneau’s statement about resonance of alternates/equivalents implies what we all know about them: even when they are in tune, they sound different. They sound different because they lie on different partials. They are at a different position in the harmonic series, and thus have a different mix of high and low frequencies, overtones, etc.
My take-away: you have to practice alternate/equivalent positions to sound good when playing them, and they are best used in certain situations/contexts. But I suppose you might say the same thing about any specific technique in music...
No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.
Chris[/quote]
Exactly. The idea that notes in further positions do not have good "resonance" deserves, well, no comment.
</QUOTE>
I think I missed something, baileyman. You made a comment, blast made a counter-statement, and then you agreed with him. However, I don’t know whether blast’s comment changed your mind, or...?
At any rate, I think Charles Reneau’s statement about resonance of alternates/equivalents implies what we all know about them: even when they are in tune, they sound different. They sound different because they lie on different partials. They are at a different position in the harmonic series, and thus have a different mix of high and low frequencies, overtones, etc.
My take-away: you have to practice alternate/equivalent positions to sound good when playing them, and they are best used in certain situations/contexts. But I suppose you might say the same thing about any specific technique in music...
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="Pre59"]
And where does this leave the F valve, is it inferior to the 6th position having more twists and turns etc?
[/quote]
No, it’s just different. Ok, yes, it might sound a bit different, even though a C in 6th and a C in V1 are the same partial or harmonic.* Regardless, our job as musicians—not just trombonists—is to make them sound as alike as possible. If we can get them to sound the same, even better.
*One of the motivating ideas behind Ed Thayer’s axial flow valve was to get rid of the twists to the resonance column found in a standard rotary valve, with the theory that it was the valve itself (essentially a baffle) and the tight turns in tubing that were contributing to the “inferior” tone.
And where does this leave the F valve, is it inferior to the 6th position having more twists and turns etc?
[/quote]
No, it’s just different. Ok, yes, it might sound a bit different, even though a C in 6th and a C in V1 are the same partial or harmonic.* Regardless, our job as musicians—not just trombonists—is to make them sound as alike as possible. If we can get them to sound the same, even better.
*One of the motivating ideas behind Ed Thayer’s axial flow valve was to get rid of the twists to the resonance column found in a standard rotary valve, with the theory that it was the valve itself (essentially a baffle) and the tight turns in tubing that were contributing to the “inferior” tone.