Courtois & Mille (probably not G bass) trombone

heldenbone · 2024-09-10 8:53 p.m.

I'm waiting for this "beauty?" to arrive from the UK.

Courtois & Milles bass trombone in G, dated roughly 1885, perhaps earlier.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/326257440271

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-09-10 9:24 p.m.

Hope you've got some VERY long arms ;)

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-09-14 11:57 a.m.

Yeah..., I noticed the slide handle is missing. I have a resourceful tech. I hope he can improvise something for the collar around the slide brace, the universal joint, and the missing handle.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-09-14 8:41 p.m.

I noticed that the bell is marked "en argent".

Is that a solid silver bell?

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-09-15 12:48 a.m.

Looks like a tenor to me. This is a Courtois & Mille G bass: <ATTACHMENT filename="courtois.png" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~courtois.png</ATTACHMENT>

Still a great find for that price even if it is a tenor.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-09-15 2:32 a.m.

I agree, this looks like it's a tenor, not a G bass.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-09-15 2:37 a.m.

[quote="Dennis"]I noticed that the bell is marked "en argent".

Is that a solid silver bell?[/quote]

No it says "Paris 1867 médaille d'honneur en argent“, i.e. silver medal at the 1867 Paris Exposition Universelle.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-09-16 9:48 a.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]<QUOTE author="Dennis" post_id="253174" time="1726360862" user_id="175">
I noticed that the bell is marked "en argent".

Is that a solid silver bell?[/quote]

No it says "Paris 1867 médaille d'honneur en argent“, i.e. silver medal at the 1867 Paris Exposition Universelle.
</QUOTE>

Thanks. It wasn't clear to me that "en argent" referred to the medal--changing font and direction was curious design choice.

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-09-17 2:27 p.m.

When are you expecting the horn?

It does look weird to me too, like others were saying. And why is the slide in 4th position in all the photos? Was there actually a video of it being played?

The last thing I thought of that made me laugh because of previous comments is, maybe the seller is not a trombone player and did not know the pitch of the instrument. Since the slide is stuck in 4th position, they played it and said " That a G, I guess it's a G trombone".

:pant:

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-09-17 7:11 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]Looks like a tenor to me. This is a Courtois & Mille G bass: courtois.png

Still a great find for that price even if it is a tenor.[/quote]

I think you will be right. I haven't seen it yet - still in transit, but the bass has 4 braces vs. 3 on what is headed towards me. It will still be entertaining to play, and as you observed, a good price.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-09-17 7:17 p.m.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]When are you expecting the horn?

It does look weird to me too, like others were saying. And why is the slide in 4th position in all the photos? Was there actually a video of it being played?

The last thing I thought of that made me laugh because of previous comments is, maybe the seller is not a trombone player and did not know the pitch of the instrument. Since the slide is stuck in 4th position, they played it and said " That a G, I guess it's a G trombone".

:pant:[/quote]

I expect it early October, unless Customs swallows it up. Seller said the slide moves, but didn't sound terribly knowledgeable. :idk:

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-09-18 9:40 a.m.

[quote="heldenbone"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="253183" time="1726375739" user_id="4102">
Looks like a tenor to me. This is a Courtois & Mille G bass: courtois.png

Still a great find for that price even if it is a tenor.[/quote]

I think you will be right. I haven't seen it yet - still in transit, but the bass has 4 braces vs. 3 on what is headed towards me. It will still be entertaining to play, and as you observed, a good price.
</QUOTE>
They claimed to have made a video of it being played, but I couldn't find it in the listing. I'm sure you'll find out soon enough, though. Please let us know.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-09-18 10:02 a.m.

[quote="heldenbone"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="253183" time="1726375739" user_id="4102">
Looks like a tenor to me. This is a Courtois & Mille G bass: courtois.png

Still a great find for that price even if it is a tenor.[/quote]

I think you will be right. I haven't seen it yet - still in transit, but the bass has 4 braces vs. 3 on what is headed towards me. It will still be entertaining to play, and as you observed, a good price.
</QUOTE>

I have a G Bass (not Courtois) that has 3 braces in the bell section. Don't make an assumption based on this.

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-09-18 5:23 p.m.

This is totally not going to help but the best I can see is that the trombone in question is about 37 times longer then the Mouthpiece. So if a vintage Mouthpiece is a little less then 3 inches, it's a tenor. But if it is 3.47 inches it is a G bass. I do not have any mouthpiece on me right now to measure.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-09-19 10:19 a.m.

My musing about 3 vs 4 braces was based on a comparison of the sale picture to the g bass pic offered up by brassmedic, also of a Courtois et Mille instrument.

I'll know "soon enough." Piney Bowes says arrival should be about October 3. I've already donated an Ambassador in really nice shape to my niece's H.S. band (she's the band director) to comply with the 1-in, 1-out rule being enforced on me by those not so enamored with brasses. ;)

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-09-19 5:29 p.m.

[quote="heldenbone"]I've already donated an Ambassador ... to comply with the 1-in, 1-out rule being enforced on me by those not so enamored with brasses. ;)[/quote]

Be careful - nature abhors a vacuum. Something else might slip in through the back door before October 3!

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-09-19 9:12 p.m.

>>Something else might slip in through the back door before October 3!

Bet on it.

--Sabutin

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-09-21 11:46 p.m.

The thing cleared entry at JFK and is scheduled for delivery on Tuesday. Oh Joy, oh trepidation; what sort of relic will the courier deliver?

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-09-22 1:09 a.m.

[quote="heldenbone"]The thing cleared entry at JFK and is scheduled for delivery on Tuesday. Oh Joy, oh trepidation; what sort of relic will the courier deliver?[/quote]

Hope it's better than a wall lamp!

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-09-27 5:35 a.m.

It arrived. It's a bouncing baby tenor. It 's better than a lamp, but needs work to be playable. The slide is sprung and caked with grunge, and the bell could benefit from some cosmetic dent work.

Overall it is phenomenally light and delicate. I am surprised and delighted it was evidently thought well enough of to be treated carefully so it could survive some 125 or so years. The slide bore is smaller than most piston trumpets - .460" roughly, and measures closer to .440-.450", which is more in the ballpark of a good traditional rotary trumpet like a Ganter G-3 or Zig's rotary C that plays much like a Shagerl Vienna.

It goes to the tech today to see if he hass tools small enough to work on such a light and diminutive slide.

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-10-08 9:51 a.m.

Great to see that you got the horn. too bad it was not a G but I guess you would be able to play it in more (but still few) situations. It's great having a selection of horns and I'm sure you will find creative ways to use this one.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-10-09 2:57 a.m.

I haven't a clue what to do with it (like the dog that finally *caught* a car), but it should emerge from my tech's ministrations any day now.

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-10-11 3:50 p.m.

You pretty much can't play that small of a bore WITH a group but it may work for an older solo piece.

<YOUTUBE id="30xvYVX4qFc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30xvYVX4qFc</YOUTUBE>

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-12 6:55 p.m.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]You pretty much can't play that small of a bore WITH a group but it may work for an older solo piece.[/quote]

You can pay it in a group, just as long as others are using instruments of the same style and era! But yeah, in a modern ensemble, unlikely to find a context where it would work.

Playing the French music from the OP's new horn's time period, on these small French trombones, is absolutely eye-opening. The Bolero and L'enfant et les sortilèges excerpts, Guilmant, Bozza, Stojowski, etc. suddenly make so much sense!

[quote="MahlerMusic"]<YOUTUBE id="30xvYVX4qFc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30xvYVX4qFc</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

I wouldn't specifically advise playing that particular solo on that horn, although there's nothing wrong if someone wanted, I just don't really see the point. If one doesn't play sackbut and is going to use a comparatively modern instrument (relative to this piece's time period, OP's horn was made like, yesterday), they might as well play it on their normal, more familiar trombone, they'll just sound much better. Just as I'm absolutely certain Burt Mason (an otherwise extremely good player) would have sounded several orders of magnitude better if he'd played his usual horn instead of massively overblowing on a sackbut playing with a modern approach and a modern mouthpiece. To me this video is a perfect example of what not to do with historical instruments.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-10-14 11:53 a.m.

Would it be appropriate to play the sort of pieces the French Conservatoire used as examination material around turn of the century? It seems to be an artist grade instrument of the time.

UATrombone · by **UATrombone** » 2024-10-14 5:38 p.m.

[quote="LeTromboniste"]

Playing the French music from the OP's new horn's time period, on these small French trombones, is absolutely eye-opening. The Bolero and L'enfant et les sortilèges excerpts, Guilmant, Bozza, Stojowski, etc. suddenly make so much sense!
[/quote]
Bozza's Ballade had been written in 1944 (if my memory serves).

Do you mean that French trombonists played so tiny instruments till mid-20th century?

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-14 5:47 p.m.

[quote="heldenbone"]Would it be appropriate to play the sort of pieces the French Conservatoire used as examination material around turn of the century? It seems to be an artist grade instrument of the time.[/quote]

Yes that's exactly the style of instruments they were all using in France, pretty much from the mid 19th to mid 20th century. Important to note that they used absolutely tiny mouthpieces, like, much smaller than anything you'd ever want to use. On mine I use a turn-of-the-century Courtois mouthpiece that was then a bass trombone or saxhorn mouthpiece, with a cup width slightly smaller than a 12C with a wide flat rim and a kind of V-ish cup. I tried my modern 11C to see how that would be and it was way too easy to overblow the instrument and hard to have anything but a big, fat tone with oversaturated colour.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-10-14 5:48 p.m.

[quote="UATrombone"]<QUOTE author="LeTromboniste" post_id="255627" time="1728773734" user_id="3038">

Playing the French music from the OP's new horn's time period, on these small French trombones, is absolutely eye-opening. The Bolero and L'enfant et les sortilèges excerpts, Guilmant, Bozza, Stojowski, etc. suddenly make so much sense!
[/quote]
Bozza's Ballade had been written in 1944 (if my memory serves).

Do you mean that French trombonists played so tiny instruments till mid-20th century?
</QUOTE>

Yes! As far as I know the change was as late as 1960ish

stewbones43 · by **stewbones43** » 2024-10-14 5:59 p.m.

The use of such instruments was the same in the UK until after WW II. Brass bands used them into the early 1960s!

I was there.

Cheers

Stewbones43

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-10-14 10:36 p.m.

Along the same lines, I'm using a F. Besson C trumpet for a performance of the Poulenc Les Biches suite in a few days. It is entirely more suitable and appropo than a heavy, clunky Bach C. The sound is light and bright, and it speaks quickly.

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-11-05 11:46 p.m.

:twisted: It's a tenor, and it turns out it can be played at modern A-440 pitch with the tuning slide pulled 33 mm. With tuning slide closed, it plays right at A-450. The bell placement is close to 4th position.

<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_20241105_185756.jpg" index="3">~~[attachment=3]~~IMG_20241105_185756.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

A besson 10 T mouthpiece accompanied it that fits well and produces a very in-tune harmonic series. I'm still negotiating with it about how it would like to be played.

<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_20241105_190121.jpg" index="2">~~[attachment=2]~~IMG_20241105_190121.jpg</ATTACHMENT>

The ferule work shows it was an artist grade instrument in its day.

Printing on the outer slide includes the word "Brevete'" much like F. Besson trumpets.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-11-06 8:04 p.m.

Mine is from the same time period. Those are indeed at around A=452, but with a very long tuning slide that can bring you down a full semitone, all the way to around A=430. Bell in 4th at 452, more like 3½ at 430. They are really fun to play!

How's the slide?

heldenbone · by **heldenbone** » 2024-11-07 12:43 p.m.

My slide is truly awful, maybe a 2/10. The soldered stockings are very short compared to more modern instruments, and inner slide having only one brace seems to contribute to the problem. Any effort to hold up the bell-heavy end with the left hand makes slide alignment worse. Did these ever have a counterweight?

The sound is interesting. I would call it akin to a very bright horn sound.

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