Trombone pet peeves

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-16 3:43 p.m.

Whether it's about instruments, playing, players, or pedagogy, let those peeves fly! What bugs you that you don't talk about? I'll start:

No, long tones aren't the answer to every problem!

No, you can't learn to play fast by playing slow. It's a whole different physical thingamajig (<-- technical music term way too advanced for the likes of you :D ).

It's not the [mouthpiece/lead pipe/crook/tuning slide/bore size], it's you.

If you can't make the rehearsal, get a sub! Leaving an empty chair is so disrespectful to your sectionmates.

Your turn.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-16 3:47 p.m.

Why do symphony players play on large bore sizes that didn't even exist in the 17th through 19th centuries, and lecture us pedantically about being true to the composer's original intent?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-16 3:48 p.m.

Let's all take a moment to be thankful that Mr. and Mrs. G didn't let their son, Kenny, play the trombone. :mrgreen:

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-09-16 4:04 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]Why do symphony players play on large bore sizes that didn't even exist in the 17th through 19th centuries, and lecture us pedantically about being true to the composer's original intent?[/quote]

Omg this, so much!! The mainstream classical world's obsession with "the intention of the composer" is most of the time superficially informed at best, and, given how vastly different today's instruments and canonically-accepted performance choices are from historical practice, usually completely irrelevant.

(not saying there's anything at all wrong with playing modern instruments on old music, or using modern interpretation idiom. Let's just leave the morally superior attitudes and pseudo-artistic-purity arguments out of it)

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-16 5:33 p.m.

I'll give an actual pet peeve: tuning slides pulled out more than 1cm in a cool room

Plenty of better players than me do it, so it's not actually all that bad, but it still irks me.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-09-16 6:05 p.m.

- Classical players who think they can play jazz, but sound like sh...

- The other way around.

- Overall people who always stay in their own limited musical bubble. Although I must admit there is certain music that I hate and don't ever want to play.

- Conductors. Or at least some of them. Those who have no clue of brass instruments.

- People who come to rehearsals unprepared and expect everything is ready prepared for them./Generally people who just "consume", but don't contribute.

- People who have very set ideas of music, instruments/equipment or technique, but obviously are missing a lot of perspectives.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-09-16 7:03 p.m.

I hate that jerk in the section who uses a tablet. In a few years, I'm sure I will hate those jerks that still use paper.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-16 7:16 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]- People who come to rehearsals unprepared and expect everything is ready prepared for them.[/quote]

Yeah, that drives me nuts.

I'm in a weird position. Before my 30-year layoff I played with musicians who didn't need rehearsals. They sat down and played everything virtually perfectly the first time through, and every time through. I can't count the number of gigs I did with zero rehearsal that were absolutely amazing, many of those TV broadcasts and various recording sessions.

Now that I'm back playing, I play with both pros and community players. And it drives me nuts when the community players (who are given the music ahead of time) come in and use the rehearsal as their own personal practice time. No! Practice at home. When you come to the rehearsal you should already be able to play your part perfectly because you put in the time at home. The rehearsal is for the conductor and the group as a whole to put things together, not your time to learn your part at our expense because you didn't bother to practice all week.

Drives me nucking futs.

(That said, I'm guilty. I never practice my part at home. But in my defense, I can still come in and play the sh*t out of it without practicing. If I ever reach the point where I can't, you bet your bippy I'll be woodshedding that stuff at home, and when I get there it'll sound great.)

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-16 8:22 p.m.

Dana didn't you say you were the one who would just noodle over the tuning pitch in the orchestra rather than help establish pitch? Don't practice at rehearsals! Just sit quietly and only play when your note comes up on the page <EMOJI seq="1f914" tseq="1f914">🤔</EMOJI>

<ATTACHMENT filename="signal-2024-09-13-17-08-31-039.gif" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~signal-2024-09-13-17-08-31-039.gif</ATTACHMENT>

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-16 9:33 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]And it drives me nuts when the community players (who are given the music ahead of time) come in and use the rehearsal as their own personal practice time. No! Practice at home. When you come to the rehearsal you should already be able to play your part perfectly because you put in the time at home. The rehearsal is for the conductor and the group as a whole to put things together, not your time to learn your part at our expense because you didn't bother to practice all week.[/quote]
Yeah, but a "community" group (community band, community orchestra, community chorus, ...) isn't a professional or even a serious amateur group. The members of it (at least the ones who aren't elderly and retired) have full time jobs during the day that don't involve music. They involve things like administration, factory work, IT at various levels, genuine science (I've played with very good community musicians who were protein scientists, biologists, chemists, etc.), medicine (I've played with a number of M.D.s, including cardiologist and oncologists), engineering (mechanical, electrical, chemical), airline pilots (I've played with a wonderful euphonium player who was an international pilot for American Airlines), etc. etc.

Sometimes these people work very long days. The last couple of years before I retired, my group was frequently working 10-12 hour days (8 in the office, 2-4 at home) on things I won't even try to describe here. And some of them are on call at various times during the week. Yeah, with a job like that (working at SAS, for example) and with three children, I still did find time to practice for the weekly community band rehearsal. True, not as much I "should" have, but I did my best. Some people couldn't manage quite as much practice. And later, I stopped playing for 15 years because I just couldn't do it with the jobs I had.

You just need to stay away from community organizations if you think that people with real full-time jobs can be expected to practice their parts to perfection before coming to rehearsal. I'll go for "should practice their parts before coming to rehearsal," but "to perfection" is definitely unreasonable. Sure, the level of unpreparedness is irritating (even to other members of that organization in the same boat as them). But that's the kind of organization it is, and every conductor of one is aware of that -- even if he/she yells them regularly to PRACTICE AT HOME. :) :roll:

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2024-09-16 9:45 p.m.

Adding aggressive vibrato when you're playing 2nd or 3rd bone and the lead bone (and/or the lead trumpet) is not doing that.

Well, in a performance, at least. At rehearsal, that's the time to try things out and get told how awful you sound.

:good:

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2024-09-16 9:47 p.m.

Excessive warming up in the performance area when other people are trying to set up.

Doug_Elliott · by **Doug_Elliott** » 2024-09-16 10:42 p.m.

People who stay on stage after a performance and continue to play.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-09-17 4:14 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="253312" time="1726524342" user_id="4208">
- People who come to rehearsals unprepared and expect everything is ready prepared for them.[/quote]

Yeah, that drives me nuts.
</QUOTE>

As this point from my end created some discussion.

I am not thinking about amateur/community (?) orchestras and comparable settings. I am thinking about pro or semi-pro situations and/or situations where the majority of people comes well prepared (instrument ready, touched it regularly in the last weeks, music printed out if available beforehand etc.) and some individuals think they don't need to.

mgladdish · by **mgladdish** » 2024-09-17 4:56 a.m.

Exploding elephant licks when soloing. That lip trill against the slide has *never* sounded good, I don't know why pretty much every trombonist resorts to it. And no other instrumentalist does this for a good reason.

Classical singers' vibrato. I can't even tell what note they're singing most of the time!

I'll add another vote to classical players murdering jazz (and vice-versa). I've lost count of the number of times a classical recital ends with a butchered bit of gershwin as "a bit of fun" at the end. It's insulting. I don't end my gigs with a half-assed bach prelude with none of the phrasing or styling expected.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2024-09-17 6:36 a.m.

Players who can't get below an mf.

claf · by **claf** » 2024-09-17 6:38 a.m.

[quote="MStarke"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="253318" time="1726528570" user_id="16498">

Yeah, that drives me nuts.[/quote]

As this point from my end created some discussion.

I am not thinking about amateur/community (?) orchestras and comparable settings. I am thinking about pro or semi-pro situations and/or situations where the majority of people comes well prepared (instrument ready, touched it regularly in the last weeks, music printed out if available beforehand etc.) and some individuals think they don't need to.
</QUOTE>

Reminds me of a jazz band I played a few years ago.

The band was created as part of a jazz diploma for the local conservatory to help the students prepare for their future work as jazz musicians.

The band was composed of amateurs, students and a few professionals, and the level was very good. We rehearsed once a month.

The only ones that never prepared the rehearsal at home were the students, and they often forgot their sheet music.

I was in pain for them, because they saw it as a "mandatory part" of their cursus, but they missed why it was there for: teach them how to behave in group context (be on-time, be prepared, have your sheet music, be nice with everyone).

Pezza · by **Pezza** » 2024-09-17 7:22 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I'll give an actual pet peeve: tuning slides pulled out more than 1cm in a cool room

Plenty of better players than me do it, so it's not actually all that bad, but it still irks me.[/quote]

Why? If it takes more to be in tune then they should be out more! Not everyone is the same,

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-17 9:20 a.m.

[quote="Pezza"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="253311" time="1726522425" user_id="3642">
I'll give an actual pet peeve: tuning slides pulled out more than 1cm in a cool room

Plenty of better players than me do it, so it's not actually all that bad, but it still irks me.[/quote]

Why? If it takes more to be in tune then they should be out more! Not everyone is the same,
</QUOTE>

That's what a pet peeve is -- people are posting actual grievances like section mates showing up unprepared in pro settings, but as far as I'm tracking, a pet peeve is something that has a slight nonsensical element to it or is petty, and the reaction is in excess of what the situation calls for. Like being very angry about someone chewing loudly. Or being mad about terms being used incorrectly. Or being upset when people don't use they're vocabulary correctly.

bitbckt · by **bitbckt** » 2024-09-17 9:38 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]

That's what a pet peeve is -- people are posting actual grievances like section mates showing up unprepared in pro settings, but as far as I'm tracking, a pet peeve is something that has a slight nonsensical element to it or is petty, and the reaction is in excess of what the situation calls for. Like being very angry about someone chewing loudly. Or being mad about terms being used incorrectly. Or being upset when people don't use they're vocabulary correctly.[/quote]

Gah! <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-17 9:50 a.m.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 10:46 a.m.

Meta pet peeves. Pet peeves about pet peeves. And then meta ... meta pet peeves. :lol: :roll: :good: No moral high ground here anywhere.

SteveM · by **SteveM** » 2024-09-17 10:49 a.m.

The worst part is when you realize you've done many of them yourself at one time or another.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 10:52 a.m.

Yeah, I guess one of my pet peeves is the imperfection of humanity. But now I just try to roll with it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-17 11:16 a.m.

This Pandora's Box has been opened!

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 11:40 a.m.

It was always open. This thread has nothing to do with trombones and is just an example of social media interaction. The whole idea of a "Tangents" forum is to create a Pandora's box. Every forum site has one, and everyone knows that. And it works. A good time is had by all. :)

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2024-09-17 12:00 p.m.

Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 12:23 p.m.

[quote="Mikebmiller"]Concert band music in general.[/quote]
I'm mostly with you on that, but I think it's more a feature of the particular band than it is of the overall repertoire of band music.

So much stuff now in "community" bands is Grade 3 or lower and often doesn't even have a 3rd trombone part. But I've played some interesting/challenging and fun parts (on bass at least) in bands that have a somewhat higher bar (and better conductor) in terms of the difficulty of the music. Again, there are "features" of a "community band" (or orchestra, or whatever) that vary depending on requirements (if any!) that the band chooses to impose on its members. But depending on where you live (and how far you want to drive), your options may be limited.

However, this is a major reason I decided recently to give up on community bands (which often have slid downhill around here, partly as the average age is creeping upwards into the New Horizons category), commit fully to bass trombone (finally ditching the tuba and euphonium), and hook up with a jazz band that would have me. (To repeat some other peeves here ... ) I got tired of sitting on a too-crowded stage among people who couldn't find the time to practice, and then often ending up with music so anemic that my mind constantly wandered while playing it. I've got enough problems with my aging mind, and devoting my time to such an organization is more annoying than beneficial.

Finetales · 2024-09-17 12:36 p.m.

Jazz players who have a habit of playing notes higher than they can play with a real sound in their solos. If you have a real F, G, etc. like Carl/Frank/Bill/Urbie/etc. did, by all means have at it. But there are some modern players who play up there but don't really have it, and it sounds terrible every time.

Bass trombonists who have an independent horn but never use the 2nd valve alone.

The fact that trombonists tend to wait to do glisses until the last second. Like if the gliss is coming off a whole note, the default seems to be not starting the gliss until like the last 8th note. A full-value gliss should be the default!

People who claim the McCracken 5B is a bass trombone. ;)

Non-trombone pet peeves:

People who pointlessly and incorrectly correct other people about instrument nomenclature. Any time someone dares to call a sousaphone a tuba in a marching band video, there is always some know-it-all who has to "correct" them. 1) It is literally a tuba, and 2) NOBODY CARES.

Trumpet players who use a C for everything, even when the part goes below the range of a C trumpet.

Tuba players who use a 6/4 CC BAT for everything.

Bydlo being played on an F tuba rather than a euphonium.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 12:45 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]Any time someone dares to call a sousaphone a tuba in a marching band video, there is always some know-it-all who has to "correct" them. 1) It is literally a tuba, and 2) NOBODY CARES.[/quote]
Okay, okay ... But where do you stand on helicons?

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-09-17 12:47 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="Finetales" post_id="253361" time="1726590969" user_id="136">
Any time someone dares to call a sousaphone a tuba in a marching band video, there is always some know-it-all who has to "correct" them. 1) It is literally a tuba, and 2) NOBODY CARES.[/quote]
Okay, okay ... But where do you stand on helicons?
</QUOTE>

They're still tubas! Helicon/sousaphone/contras (Bb or G) are all just tubas in different wraps and regional bore/taper variations.

It's not that I don't think the distinction is necessary - they all have different names for a reason. But fundamentally, they're all tubas so it's incorrect to correct someone when they call them a tuba.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 12:54 p.m.

I don't know ...

I think your description is oversimplified and ignores significant nuances in design. There's also a sub-population that regards ignoring the Sousaphone/helicon distinction as unAmerican and dismissive of one of J. P. Sousa's major contributions to the history and practice of music. Plus, if you've ever sat to the left side of a helicon player, you should be more inclined to support that distinction, as in "Will he be playing a Sousaphone or a Helicon? Because I have to decide where I want to sit." There are both serious political and practical issues in making these distinctions. :roll: Depending on what context you're in when maintaining your position about no distinctions, you might want to watch your back.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-17 12:58 p.m.

[quote="Mikebmiller"]Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.[/quote]

They don't all suck. There are some good trombone parts in band music. Last year I was brought in to play 2nd trombone on Malagueña Extreme in a community band concert, because the band had only 3 trombones and this piece had 4 trombone parts. It's a trombone section feature that I think was written for the Navy Band, and it's pretty meaty. I enjoyed the other pieces they chose for that concert, too, so I agreed to be their bass trombone player this year. The conductor is a bass trombonist who makes it a point to find decent pieces for trombones to play. And he finds some gems.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-17 1:04 p.m.

Okay, not to pick on community bands/orchestras, because, after all, I choose to play in them; no one is forcing me to. But there are some general problems I see that run across every community group I play with, and some are kind of peevy.

The one I want to mention here is TIME. You don't have to have great chops or be a technical virtuoso to play with good time. It's a much simpler skill than learning an instrument. Anyone can learn to play with good time. But somehow, ALL the community groups I've played with have had atrocious time.

A community big band I played with last night played Groovin' Hard, but it had slowed down so much that by the end I had renamed it Hardly Groovin'. :D Time is super fuzzy in every community group in the region, and I'm wondering if it's just here or if that's a trend elsewhere, too.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 1:48 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]The one I want to mention here is TIME. You don't have to have great chops or be a technical virtuoso to play with good time. It's a much simpler skill than learning an instrument. Anyone can learn to play with good time.[/quote]
You would think -- unless you'd played in a few community organizations. I confess that I honestly can't recall the last time I played in any community organizations where the majority of the trumpet section could count to 4 with even intervals. This is not helped by the conductors who simply give up on it, but on the other hand you have to have some sympathy with them in light of the responses they get.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-09-17 2:33 p.m.

[quote="Mikebmiller"]Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.[/quote]

I also don't like when the Baritone/Euphonium part is the same as the tenor sax. :frown:

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 3:10 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I also don't like when the Baritone/Euphonium part is the same as the tenor sax. :frown:[/quote]
Neither do the euphoniums.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-09-17 3:58 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]I don't know ...

I think your description is oversimplified and ignores significant nuances in design. There's also a sub-population that regards ignoring the Sousaphone/helicon distinction as unAmerican and dismissive of one of J. P. Sousa's major contributions to the history and practice of music. Plus, if you've ever sat to the left side of a helicon player, you should be more inclined to support that distinction, as in "Will he be playing a Sousaphone or a Helicon? Because I have to decide where I want to sit." There are both serious political and practical issues in making these distinctions. :roll: Depending on what context you're in when maintaining your position about no distinctions, you might want to watch your back.[/quote]

But...they are both literally tubas. Tubas have a massive range in bore, taper, bell diameter, valve configuration, much more than trombones or trumpets. A 3/4 rotary F tuba (MW 182) is just as much a tuba as a 6/4 piston Bb, and those are farther apart than the average sousaphone and helicon. Obviously the wrap is different, which is why we have different names for them. But if you straighten them all out, they're all tubas.

I'm not advocating for discarding the different names and just calling them all tubas. But when people get all holier than thou on YouTube comments exclaiming "it's NOT a tuba <EMOJI seq="1f644" tseq="1f644">🙄</EMOJI>", they're just...wrong.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-09-17 4:01 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]I also don't like when the Baritone/Euphonium part is the same as the tenor sax. :frown:[/quote]

Couldn't agree more!

See also: alto sax doubling the horns.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-09-17 4:14 p.m.

Hearing it called a "french" horn.

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2024-09-17 5:01 p.m.

[quote="SteveM"]The worst part is when you realize you've done many of them yourself at one time or another.[/quote]

DAMMIT!!!

:redface: :redface: :redface:

Mikebmiller · by **Mikebmiller** » 2024-09-17 5:29 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Mikebmiller" post_id="253356" time="1726588808" user_id="213">
Concert band music in general. Most of the trombone parts in most concert band music are pure crap. Whole notes, half notes, playing the chord part while the woodwinds and trumpets have all the fun. I get excited when I see an eighth note and practically ecstatic when I have the melody for 4 bars in any concert band piece. Our community band (and that's another whole pet peeve) is doing an entire concert of movie medleys and they all suck when it comes to the trombone part. Fortunately, we now have a brass band in town and I am playing baritone in that. It is so much more fun.[/quote]

They don't all suck. There are some good trombone parts in band music. Last year I was brought in to play 2nd trombone on Malagueña Extreme in a community band concert, because the band had only 3 trombones and this piece had 4 trombone parts. It's a trombone section feature that I think was written for the Navy Band, and it's pretty meaty. I enjoyed the other pieces they chose for that concert, too, so I agreed to be their bass trombone player this year. The conductor is a bass trombonist who makes it a point to find decent pieces for trombones to play. And he finds some gems.
</QUOTE>

When you play in a community band that struggles to play anything above grade 4, most of the music is boring. I stay in the group because I am good friends with the director and there are a lot of nice people, but, musically, it is not very fulfilling.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 5:39 p.m.

So how do y'all feel about those Jewish/Russian Hanukkah/Christmas songs (with a lot of stuff in 7, or in alternating 3 and 4) that are taken on by average community bands in their holiday performances? :lol: I can't say that's a pet peeve of mine, but I think I can count on the fingers of half a hand how many of those I've been in that -- should we say -- work out approximately well.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-17 5:57 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]So how do y'all feel about those Jewish/Russian Hanukkah/Christmas songs (with a lot of stuff in 7, or in alternating 3 and 4) that are taken on by average community bands in their holiday performances? :lol: I can't say that's a pet peeve of mine, but I think I can count on the fingers of half a hand how many of those I've been in that -- should we say -- work out approximately well.[/quote]

I've never been exposed to that. But you reminded me of the community big band I played in last night. We played some Thad Jones tune that goes on for about 120 bars and then suddenly throws in alternating bars of 5/4 and 4/4, and as soon as we hit that section it was like Thelma & Louise going off the cliff. It immediately came to a sudden and tragic end. LOL!

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-17 6:12 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]It immediately came to a sudden and tragic end. LOL![/quote]
Often, unfortunately, it doesn't. It just goes over the cliff and keeps on going to the end, and everybody feels pretty good about getting there. Well, mostly everybody. "Train wreck" is a good description of it.

I think I was super lucky to have the music instructors I did in Jr. High and High school. We did stuff like that, we did it seriously, and it stuck. I've played in some community bands that, for a period, could do that. But they couldn't -- or chose not to -- maintain the membership that could continue to do it over time. So at best, it's episodic.

mbarbier · 2024-09-17 6:25 p.m.

I think mine is people not reading the room on gigs, especially when subbing. Everyone using a practice mute before down beat, maybe do the same. No one on their phones during their rests? Maybe at least be discrete (which, to be fair, is an extreme rarity in LA- seems like the mark of a professional is how quickly you can have your horn on the stand and phone out during rests <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>). Totally harmless stuff, but feels like it gives off vibes of being unobservant which is a bit disconcerting.

Also the #todaysoffice posts. Don't know why, but I just expect to see a picture of a trombone in a cubicle.

I'm also with Harrison on the tuning slide thing. Zero logic why it bothers me, but yeah...

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-09-22 3:32 p.m.

It's bad enough when you're handed a part with the note names written in. But sometimes, those get uploaded to IMSLP. Ugh!

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-09-23 5:04 a.m.

[quote="mbarbier"]I think mine is people not reading the room on gigs, especially when subbing. Everyone using a practice mute before down beat, maybe do the same. No one on their phones during their tests? Maybe at least be discrete (which, to be fair, is an extreme rarity in LA- seems like the mark of a professional is how quickly you can have your horn on the stand and phone out during rests <EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f602" tseq="1f602">😂</EMOJI>). Totally harmless stuff, but feels like it gives off vibes of being unobservant which is a bit disconcerting.

Also the #todaysoffice posts. Don't know why, but I just expect to see a picture of a trombone in a cubicle.

I'm also with Harrison on the tuning slide thing. Zero logic why it bothers me, but yeah...[/quote]
That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-09-23 9:34 a.m.

Another one: (Contemporary) Music with trombone parts that don't even theoretically make sense on trombone. Impossible slurs, parts playing in extreme high or extreme low ranges, extreme especially soft dynamics that would better call for using a mute to reach the effect. All things that might even musically make sense, but don't consider feasibility. Especially if these pieces are being premiered by amateur organizations.

I have one of these coming up (subbing with an amateur orchestra). Will be interesting to see how it works out.

I think it makes a huge difference if you write that sort of thing for a specific group, a top pro orchestra or a specific soloist or if you write it just for a random orchestra.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-23 9:43 a.m.

[quote="MStarke"]I think it makes a huge difference if you write that sort of thing for a specific group, a top pro orchestra or a specific soloist or if you write it just for a random orchestra.[/quote]
Or if you maybe just think of it as a work of art divorced from worldly constraints (or maybe are unaware of the worldly constraints), or maybe believe that the performer should somehow overcome those constraints in order to execute the art. Who knows what lurks in the hearts of some composers and arrangers?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-09-23 10:05 a.m.

[quote="MStarke"]Another one: (Contemporary) Music with trombone parts that don't even theoretically make sense on trombone. Impossible slurs, parts playing in extreme high or extreme low ranges, extreme especially soft dynamics that would better call for using a mute to reach the effect. All things that might even musically make sense, but don't consider feasibility. Especially if these pieces are being premiered by amateur organizations.

I have one of these coming up (subbing with an amateur orchestra). Will be interesting to see how it works out.

I think it makes a huge difference if you write that sort of thing for a specific group, a top pro orchestra or a specific soloist or if you write it just for a random orchestra.[/quote]
It probably relates to composers using electronic sound libraries to preview their work. An electronic trombone sound is not constrained by the abilities of the instrument and thinks nothing of, for example, a gliss (portamento) from D3 to G3 (both of which occur only in 4th position separated by one partial).

A composer who studied the capabilities and characteristics of each instrument would avoid some of these inexcusable errors.

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2024-09-23 10:56 a.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]

That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.[/quote]

Totally - the logic of it still doesn't make any sense to me. I assume this is somehow a culture grown by harpist's so they can actually tune before work.

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2024-09-23 12:21 p.m.

That annoying player in front of me that won’t wear their glasses and has to keep moving their chair back into my space so they can get far enough away from their stand to see their music…I debate options for positive correction on that…

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-09-23 1:30 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.[/quote]
I know a couple people here "back east" that do it. I did it last week. For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume. I don't want to be a jerk like that, so I bring a practice mute. You keep thinking they'll learn by example, or when I put in my industrial earplugs, but no.

Might as well contribute some other peeves...

Our big band had one trumpet player who thought he was a screech player (he was mistaken) trying to teach another player to be a screech player. Those were some miserable rehearsals. These were old guys who should know better, not testosterone laden PAKs.

Of course I got annoyed at myself for playing the same notes (on tbone) that the guys trying to screech were playing (on trumpet)

People who will use ANYTHING but a bucket mute.

Modern arrangers who think 4th bone in a big band is kind of a clean up batter who just plays any left over notes.

Trumpet players who insist on practicing licks when people are trying to discuss what should be happening with the music.

Ok, I can probably simplify things by just saying "trumpet players".

Trombone players who... won't play high, won't play low, won;t play tenor clef, won't play alto clef, won't play treble clef, but always want the melody or the solo.

Trombone players who insist on playing a large bore for everything. A large bore without a valve...

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-23 1:34 p.m.

[quote="atopper333"]That annoying player in front of me that won’t wear their glasses and has to keep moving their chair back into my space so they can get far enough away from their stand to see their music…I debate options for positive correction on that…[/quote]

Just kick them, but in a positive way.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-23 1:44 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="atopper333" post_id="253784" time="1727108473" user_id="15001">
That annoying player in front of me that won’t wear their glasses and has to keep moving their chair back into my space so they can get far enough away from their stand to see their music…I debate options for positive correction on that…[/quote]

Just kick them, but in a positive way.
</QUOTE>

I've gently tapped more than one big band saxophone player in the back with the end of my slide. "Oops! Sorry!" :D

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2024-09-23 1:57 p.m.

:lol: yes, in a positive way…and I have thought about the slide check!

But then we can get into the debate…would the slide check be more meaningful with the end bumper on or off…which definitely can affect the amount of correction implied.

Maybe opening up another can with slide end bumpers. :cool:

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-09-23 2:13 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume.[/quote]
Indeed. I keep forgetting my ear plugs.

[quote="hyperbolica"]People who will use ANYTHING but a bucket mute.[/quote]
Gotta disagree on that one. In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-23 2:21 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.[/quote]

Okay, my pet peeve is those Softone neoprene mutes. They don't sound good, they're not easy to get on and off, and if you don't get them positioned right they sound like a practice mute.

I prefer the Jo-Ral bucket mute. Easy on the bell, easy to get in and out, and sound fantastic. The only downside is they take up more room in the mute bag.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-09-23 2:22 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]

Gotta disagree on that one. In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.[/quote]

https://www.theeazybucket.com/

Easy, no metal clips, light, doesn't damage your horn, in expensive, sounds like a bucket...

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-09-23 2:38 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Posaunus" post_id="253791" time="1727115192" user_id="158">

Gotta disagree on that one. In our big band, all four of us use Softone neoprene mutes. It sounds just fine - we save our bells, and can insert and remove the mutes quickly, quietly, and safely.[/quote]
https://www.theeazybucket.com/

Easy, no metal clips, light, doesn't damage your horn, inexpensive, sounds like a bucket...
</QUOTE>

I like my Eazy Bucket. My bandmates don't. (They're also pretty large / space-consuming.) We want to sound unified, so we use Softones. Our audience surely doesn't care about the "authenticity" of our mute appearance or sound.

I also have a Jo-Ral "bucket." Doesn't quite sound like an H&B bucket to my ears, but that doesn't matter so much to us or our audience. I don't use my Jo-Ral in other situations either - too bulky and too heavy! Should put it up for sale.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2024-09-23 2:41 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]Another one: (Contemporary) Music with trombone parts that don't even theoretically make sense on trombone. Impossible slurs, parts playing in extreme high or extreme low ranges, extreme especially soft dynamics that would better call for using a mute to reach the effect. All things that might even musically make sense, but don't consider feasibility. Especially if these pieces are being premiered by amateur organizations.[/quote]

Had one of these a few seasons ago, repeated patters with nowhere to breath (probably sounded fine on Sibelius). When I tried to ask the composer, at first he didn't want to speak to me, then he said it didn't matter. If he didn't care, I don't see why I should.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-23 2:50 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]Our audience surely doesn't care about the "authenticity" of our mute appearance or sound.[/quote]
https://s-mute.com/products/salt-shaker-mute

The others in my big band section are amazed at how this sounds like a bucket mute on my bass -- as they're clamping those massive cans onto their bells. To me, the only drawback of the Salt Shaker Mute is that since it's so light and I can't see it from behind the bell, I have a history of forgetting it's there when I go to put the horn on the stand. :roll: Partly, I think it's an old man thing. :? And at this point I think I have the problem beat (if only with the "TAKE THE MUTE OUT!!" comments inserted (in bold red) in my music. :roll:

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-09-23 3:17 p.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="253793" time="1727115773" user_id="104">

https://www.theeazybucket.com/

Easy, no metal clips, light, doesn't damage your horn, inexpensive, sounds like a bucket...[/quote]

I have (and like) an Eazy Bucket. My bandmates don't. (They're also pretty large / space-consuming.) We want to sound unified, so we use Softones. Our audience surely doesn't care about the "authenticity" of our mute appearance or sound.

I also have a Jo-Ral "bucket." Doesn't quite sound like an H&B bucket to my ears, but that doesn't matter so much to us or our audience. I don't use my Jo-Ral in other situations either - too bulky and too heavy! Should put it up for sale.
</QUOTE>

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2024-09-24 8:48 a.m.

People that play with the main tuning slide out so far it looks like it's about to fall off. What is up with that? The relative pitch across the entire horn has got to be affected by that.

Whenever the trombone section is considered the default section for dragging tempos. I play in a community band where the trumpet section drags like crazy.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-09-24 9:20 a.m.

[quote="Macbone1"]People that play with the main tuning slide out so far it looks like it's about to fall off. What is up with that? The relative pitch across the entire horn has got to be affected by that.[/quote]

I don't get it. Why do people care about anyone's tuning slide? I don't care if they leave it at home as long as they play in tune. Would you prefer them to ask you where it should go, and then play out of tune? Really don't get it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-24 9:47 a.m.

<EMOJI seq="1f926-1f3fb-2642" tseq="1f926-1f3fb-200d-2642-fe0f">🤦🏻‍♂️</EMOJI> that's why it's called a pet peeve

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2024-09-24 9:50 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Macbone1" post_id="253830" time="1727182138" user_id="7770">
People that play with the main tuning slide out so far it looks like it's about to fall off. What is up with that? The relative pitch across the entire horn has got to be affected by that.[/quote]

I don't get it. Why do people care about anyone's tuning slide? I don't care if they leave it at home as long as they play in tune. Would you prefer them to ask you where it should go, and then play out of tune? Really don't get it.
</QUOTE>

There may be some brass techs and pedagogues on this string who can explain why it's not the optimum way to play the instrument. Try it yourself at home sometime and see if you don't like the feel of the horn.

If the instrument passed inspection at the factory (it did) then it's on the player to figure out why they play so sharp and correct it if possible.

If I'm all wet on this topic then by all means, catch me up.

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2024-09-24 9:51 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<EMOJI seq="1f926-1f3fb-2642" tseq="1f926-1f3fb-200d-2642-fe0f">🤦🏻‍♂️</EMOJI> that's why it's called a pet peeve[/quote]

Bingo

hyperbolica · 2024-09-24 10:41 a.m.

[quote="Macbone1"]

There may be some brass techs and pedagogues on this string who can explain why it's not the optimum way to play the instrument. Try it yourself at home sometime and see if you don't like the feel of the horn.

If the instrument passed inspection at the factory (it did) then it's on the player to figure out why they play so sharp and correct it if possible.

If I'm all wet on this topic then by all means, catch me up.[/quote]

So all of your horns are TIS?

Here's a pet peeve: People who are pedantic, even hypocritically pedantic about trivial issues.

TomInME · by **TomInME** » 2024-09-24 10:42 a.m.

How about big band players who think "jazz" is one single style and never play really short notes or really fast falls and just play medium-long on everything? It's like the difference between someone putting their hand on your face and pushing gently instead of a slap.

Worse: playing an off-beat eighth tied to an eighth like a full-value quarter note, even when it has rests on both sides. (I've had trumpet players say, "that's what's written"...)

We don't have recordings of Bach playing Bach, but we damn sure have Basie and Ellington. There are times to play fat, and times not to.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-24 10:46 a.m.

[quote="TomInME"]I've had trumpet players say, "that's what's written"...[/quote]
That's funny. In my experience in community bands, trumpet players generally can't play what's written -- as it's written. :lol: But most of them think they're accomplished "jazz players". :roll:

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-24 11:02 a.m.

"It is written!"

I often declare this during rehearsals, too.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-24 11:13 a.m.

Here's a pet peeve I'm dealing with now. I play with such a wide range of musicians that issues really stick out. I play in professional big bands and a community big band. In the community big band the lead trumpet player constantly plays behind the beat and with big, fat notes. It drags the whole band down in tempo. The rhythm section slows to match the trumpets, and then the trumpets lay back on the beat to slow it down further, in a death spiral loop. I swear, if the tunes went on long enough they'd all come to dead stops.

I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk. And the thing is, they don't even hear it! They're completely mystified as to why everything slows down!

And I have no choice but to do my job and follow the lead trumpet player.

If someone had a magic solution, something I could say or do that would turn on their lights, I'd be eternally grateful. As it is, I just constantly remind myself that it's a privilege to be playing music and that the skill of those around me does not affect how privileged I am to be participating. I'm blessed, but dang, it would be nice to finish a tune within 20 bpm of where it started.

Also, I'm really enjoying Harry's drive-bys. :D

[quote="harrisonreed"]"It is written!"

I often declare this during rehearsals, too.[/quote]

TomInME · by **TomInME** » 2024-09-24 11:18 a.m.

"It is written" is the corrollary to composers who don't know how to notate what they want to hear.

TomInME · by **TomInME** » 2024-09-24 11:23 a.m.

What about composers who play lines in with the quantization WAY too high and instead of staccato eighths have a 64th followed by a 32nd rest followed by a 16th rest followed by an eighth rest...

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-24 11:51 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]In the community big band the lead trumpet player constantly plays behind the beat and with big, fat notes.[/quote]
This sounds like you're complaining about how the guy performs and expresses his art!! Like you've got no soul.

But seriously ... I've come to believe that this is part of the job description for trumpet players in community (big, concert, whatever) bands. The only upside to it is in watching the drummer and bass (or guitar) players trying to anticipate when they should come in at the end of one of those artistically expressive trumpet passages: Now? .... No, not yet ... Here I comes ... Uh, no not yet ... Where did the beat go? ... Now for sure! ... No not quite ...

At least in community concert bands I played in, I did have some degree of control because I was the tuba and I would make the beat (the percussion was often a bunch of part-timers with no formal training or experience). Then at least the conductor can say "Listen to the tuba," although even that has its limitations that depend on the listener. Also, most of those people never play in smaller groups -- like quintets, etc. So they don't hear how much they're off in the bigger group. I've played (tuba) in a couple of really good brass quintets with very competent trumpet players. But in two cases I had to abandon small groups because the trumpets were just intolerable (including no sense of intonation). Most often, I think, this is closely correlated with the age of the player.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-09-24 11:59 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]The rhythm section slows to match the trumpets...[/quote]
If you're got trumpets playing behind the beat (been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And the coffee mug. And the souvenir belt buckle.), the rhythm section is your only hope. If they hold the line, the trumpets will still be behind, but it won't get any worse.

I tried talking to the trumpet section leader about it and he was adamant that playing on the back side of the beat was stylistically correct for big band swing. I'm not sure where that came from. I hear it on solos a lot, but to do it on ensemble playing? I wish there was a facepalm smiley.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-09-24 12:05 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]... in two cases I had to abandon small groups because the trumpets were just intolerable (including no sense of intonation). Most often, I think, this is closely correlated with the age of the player.[/quote]

Yes I've noticed that too. My playing (including rhythm and intonation) is definitely improving as I get older! :roll:

TomInME · by **TomInME** » 2024-09-24 12:07 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk.[/quote]

There's a huge difference between saying "that's not happening, shut up" vs "I know and have been working on it" or even "really? I'll check that with a tuner/metronome".

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2024-09-24 1:00 p.m.

So all of your horns are TIS?

Here's a pet peeve: People who are pedantic, even hypocritically pedantic about trivial issues.

I was hoping for open-minded discourse on this to include how it might be a red flag for other playing issues, depending on the individual. I don't put others down on this forum but I guess that's a little too much to expect from everyone.

I never owned a TIS instrument.

I served 26 years in Air Force bands and a brass player auditioning could certainly risk being turned down in favor of the next candidate if they showed up with a tuning slide about ready to fall off. Doesn’t sound so trivial now does it.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-24 1:03 p.m.

tbdana · 2024-09-24 1:10 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]I tried talking to the trumpet section leader about it and he was adamant that playing on the back side of the beat was stylistically correct for big band swing. I'm not sure where that came from.[/quote]

That reminds me of an embarrassing mistake I made. I was recording an album, and my longtime hero Sammy Nestico arranged all the charts. Nestico wrote for Basie, and when I was growing up, "Basie Straight Ahead" was one of my favorite albums, and all the tunes on that album were arranged by Sammy Nestico.

For some reason, I had the impression that the brass section laid back on the slower swing tunes, like "It's Oh, So Nice," and I thought I'd show Sammy how familiar I was with his style by really laying back on some section that sounded a lot like that Basie album. Bad decision. Nestico stopped the band and laid into "that trombone player who was playing behind," which of course was me playing the lead trombone part, and he went on about how "stupid" that was.

I was mortified and absolutely crushed. Here was my hero coming down on me in front of all these great players like Bill Liston, Bob McChesney, Wayne Bergeron, Dave Carpenter, Dan Higgins, and more. Ugh!

That day I learned a big lesson. I went home and started listening to those Basie recordings again only to realize that the laying back thing was a myth. They played all of it right in time, just with great musicality that made it feel laid back.

Big lessons are almost always difficult ones, but ones that really stay with you.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-24 1:12 p.m.

[quote="TomInME"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="253851" time="1727190797" user_id="16498">I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk.[/quote]

There's a huge difference between saying "that's not happening, shut up" vs "I know and have been working on it" or even "really? I'll check that with a tuner/metronome".
</QUOTE>

Thanks for the super helpful tips. You totally divined what I was saying. :)

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-09-24 1:50 p.m.

Not against trombone players, but gripes in general in no particular order. Note: We are all volunteer players.

So called “musicians” that think a euphonium is a French horn or tuba. At least non-musical people ask “What instrument is that?”

Guitar players that think we enjoy hearing them play whatever they feel like when the leader is trying to tell us something.

Guitar players tuning their guitar during quiet periods.

Canned pads

Trumpet players that show up for an ensemble practice that haven’t even looked at the music they’ve had for 2 weeks.

Trumpet players that show up without valve oil.

Ensemble players that just plain don’t show up.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-09-24 1:55 p.m.

[quote="Macbone1"]I never owned a TIS instrument.[/quote]

The only way to get past ~6-8 inches of cylindrical tubing in your conical bell is to have a TIS slide or no tuning slide whatsoever. But the whole "slam the tuning slide shut" contingent doesn't have either. Again, I don't get it.

The answer of course is that it makes little to no difference. If even TIS doesn't make much difference, then an extra inch or two on your existing tuning slide makes even less difference.

So remove the tuning slide parts from your horn or get a TIS. Or stop ridiculing people for using their tuning slide.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-09-24 2:20 p.m.

[quote="BrassSection"]Ensemble players that just plain don’t show up.[/quote]
and don't tell anyone they're not going to be there.

Macbone1 · by **Macbone1** » 2024-09-24 2:42 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="Macbone1" post_id="253874" time="1727197226" user_id="7770">
I never owned a TIS instrument.[/quote]

The only way to get past ~6-8 inches of cylindrical tubing in your conical bell is to have a TIS slide or no tuning slide whatsoever. But the whole "slam the tuning slide shut" contingent doesn't have either. Again, I don't get it.

The answer of course is that it makes little to no difference. If even TIS doesn't make much difference, then an extra inch or two on your existing tuning slide makes even less difference.

So remove the tuning slide parts from your horn or get a TIS. Or stop ridiculing people for using their tuning slide.
</QUOTE>

If you don't get it I can't help you here. I considered the subject to be generally familiar but apparently not. I agree that slamming a tuning slide shut to play is also not a good thing, but almost never seen in my 55 years of playing.

I won't post anymore on this, you exhausted the subject.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-09-24 2:46 p.m.

There was a very good studio player I heard of that cut the outer tubes on his tuning slide (but not the inners) so that he could play pushed in all the way and not have people whining that he didn't use his tuning slide. It appeared like he had pulled it out a quarter inch.

This would be an example of a technique that some here would take unreasonable offense to. Even though having a longer cylindrical section in your bell actually will make the horn play generally worse than a shorter one. A pet peeve, so to speak. :clever:

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-09-24 4:05 p.m.

Oh yeah, forgot one…wandering singers! More than once my slide hit a singer on the shoulder…STRONGLY resisted the head target after the first contact. And it wasn’t rare, almost weekly! Even a friendly spit valve demonstration with a warning to beware of the trombone players didn’t stop the problem.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2024-09-26 7:46 a.m.

Maybe my no. 1 pet peeve: "Play the dots on the page"

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-09-26 9:41 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]

I can't say anything about it, no matter how subtly or constructively, or I'm a jerk. And the thing is, they don't even hear it! They're completely mystified as to why everything slows down!

And I have no choice but to do my job and follow the lead trumpet player.

[/quote]

Some years back I was playing in a band with intonation challenges. The center of pitch could be wildly different between sections, and depending on which section had the lead I was annoyed at having to adjust. And that's fatiguing for the chops.

I mentioned it to another section mate, and he said, "Tim, you're being part of the problem. Don't follow them, play it correctly."

While amateur groups often play out of tune, the ubiquitous $20 tuner, and the phone apps mean we're usually at least in reaching distance of 440. That's one thing that has improved over the years.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-26 11:01 a.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]the ubiquitous $20 tuner, and the phone apps mean we're usually at least in reaching distance of 440. That's one thing that has improved over the years.[/quote]

My experience is that the way in which this technology is typically used in community bands actually contributes to the lack of intonation.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-09-27 8:53 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="254035" time="1727358064" user_id="211">
the ubiquitous $20 tuner, and the phone apps mean we're usually at least in reaching distance of 440. That's one thing that has improved over the years.[/quote]

My experience is that the way in which this technology is typically used in community bands actually contributes to the lack of intonation.
</QUOTE>

That hasn't been my experience locally. Players with intonation difficulties here mostly lack the skillset to play a steady enough pitch; they aren't chasing a flashing light on the stand.

Any given person may not play at the ensemble's core pitch. But I really do think the tuners have caused that core pitch to stabilize in reaching distance of A440. If you're old enough, you remember not knowing what to expect, often a half step or more away from that.

Autotune in pop music on the radio may be a contributor too.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-27 9:17 p.m.

[quote="timothy42b"]But I really do think the tuners have caused that core pitch to stabilize in reaching distance of A440.[/quote]
I guess I don't really understand this. There are several tuning/pitch issues here, I suppose, but "in reaching distance of" sounds like another kinder/gentler way of saying "not in tune." If you mean that tuners provide the average community band player at least with what seems to be a straightforward method (or at least part of one) to "reach" the ability to play in tune, I don't think I'd dispute that. At least over the past 20 years or so, I haven't seen any genuine convergence on good intonation in community bands. But there are a lot of "comorbidities" involved in poor community bands intonation (including age of players, experience and training of players, enforcement of standards by the conductor and band leadership, etc.). And some bands are much better than others. In general, I think you will find that a younger band (average under, say 65) led by an experienced and skilled conductor, comprised of people who have had some decent training in their school years, and in which standards of performance (and rehearsal regimen) are high will tend to play with much better intonation than most other community bands. I suppose that tuners may help in such circumstances.

chouston3 · by **chouston3** » 2024-09-27 9:31 p.m.

I rediscovered a pet peeve last night. I was sitting in a teaching orchestra with people of all skill levels. The trombonist next to me who isn't bad, just quiet, was holding his trombone in a super weird way. I showed him how to hold it but then he went back to his weird way. I asked to see his trombone and his slide was awful. The poor kid was using muscle to move his slide. The thing was making grinding noises as he was playing. I then asked what he used on the slide. He didn't know to lube his slide. He switched from baritone to trombone in the 10th grade and nobody clued him in on basic instrument maintenance. This will be fixed next week but it pisses me off when I see a kid who doesn't know the really basic things.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-27 11:21 p.m.

[quote="chouston3"]He switched from baritone to trombone in the 10th grade and nobody clued him in on basic instrument maintenance.[/quote]
So I wonder if he knew enough to lubricate his baritone valves and tuning slides? And he couldn't extend that idea to the trombone slide? And after he changed to trombone he never noticed any fellow trombone players lubricating their slides or talking about that? And neither his middle school (or junior high school) nor his high school director or instructor ever noticed a problem or provided any instruction on instrument maintenance? That does seem pretty amazing.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-09-28 2:06 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="brassmedic" post_id="253769" time="1727082269" user_id="4102">
That whole "you have to warm up in a practice mute" thing is strictly LA, though. I never got that fear of being heard thing.[/quote]
I know a couple people here "back east" that do it. I did it last week. For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume. I don't want to be a jerk like that, so I bring a practice mute. You keep thinking they'll learn by example, or when I put in my industrial earplugs, but no.
</QUOTE>
That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about players who don't want anyone to hear them warming up. Not because they're afraid of hurting someone's ears, but because they're afraid they might be judged. If you did some gigs here you would understand. I don't notice it a lot in jazz settings, but on orchestra or recording jobs. I think it's considerate of you to not want to hurt people's ears, and I totally get that.

timothy42b · by **timothy42b** » 2024-09-28 8:05 a.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]<QUOTE author="timothy42b" post_id="254184" time="1727484832" user_id="211">
But I really do think the tuners have caused that core pitch to stabilize in reaching distance of A440.[/quote]
I guess I don't really understand this. There are several tuning/pitch issues here, I suppose, but "in reaching distance of" sounds like another kinder/gentler way of saying "not in tune."
</QUOTE>

Yeah, I didn't explain well, and there are two different issues that are somewhat coupled.

What I mean is when you sub with a different group (I'm kind of thinking polka days in the upper midwest and my family's experiences) you might have to play in tune with a group that's at A=416 or A=465. The individuals in the group might or might not play in tune with that pitch depending on their skills. When your tuning slide is all the way in and you can't use first position at all, everything is alternates. Etc. That doesn't happen anymore, and I think the cheap tuner has something to do with that. I could be wrong, dunno. Might just be that the untunable accordion has fallen out of style.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-09-28 10:03 a.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="hyperbolica" post_id="253787" time="1727112623" user_id="104">

I know a couple people here "back east" that do it. I did it last week. For me, it's so annoying to have trumpets warm up right in your ear at full volume. I don't want to be a jerk like that, so I bring a practice mute. You keep thinking they'll learn by example, or when I put in my industrial earplugs, but no.[/quote]
That's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about players who don't want anyone to hear them warming up. Not because they're afraid of hurting someone's ears, but because they're afraid they might be judged. If you did some gigs here you would understand. I don't notice it a lot in jazz settings, but on orchestra or recording jobs. I think it's considerate of you to not want to hurt people's ears, and I totally get that.
</QUOTE>

Is that seriously what they do in L.A. now? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Imagine being a gigging musician and being afraid to let others hear you. :D

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-09-28 8:19 p.m.

Twenty buck tuners…Grandson tuned his bass guitar with the one at the bass guitar spot, just to “Try it once”. He usually tunes by ear, smart aleck kid has perfect pitch. First song at practice I was using my trombone. All my other horns have valves, never had an actual official trombone lesson in my life. Man did something sound BAD, thought I was having a senior moment with the slide positions, then I realized the bass guitar was flat, real flat! Drummer was second to notice…he’s a band director. Then grandson realized HE was the problem, retuned by ear and all was well with the world, including the new name of “Pancake” for my grandson! The leader noted the other bass player had trouble with that tuner.

Speaking of slide positions, band director loaned a trombone to somebody that played in high school that wanted to practice up and join our ensemble to play in. After practicing at home a few days, she reported the slide positions don’t seem to be right, could somebody check this horn? Band director checked out the horn, it was fine. Said volunteer backed out.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-09-28 9:21 p.m.

[quote="BrassSection"]The leader noted the other bass player had trouble with that tuner.[/quote]

That might be the tuner, or it might be the tuner user.

All the tuners I've used allow you to set your tuner to tune to a given "standard" pitch. Various ensembles (especially depending on which continent you're on) may tune to different pitches. And of course in the past instruments were made to (by default) play to different pitches than they do today (where most usually A=440Hz). Pitch wasn't standardized to any degree until the early 20th century. When I got my almost 100 year old Buescher tuba, it was pitched (by the factory) at A=435 (and "low pitch" was engraved on the second valve cylinder). Instruments were commonly made and sold as "high pitch," "low pitch", and "dual pitch". And in addition each of "high pitch" and "low pitch" could mean one of several different pitches.

If you're either not aware of this, or you're not careful, or something odd happens while you're messing with the tuner, you can set your tuning pitch to be other than 440 -- and then when you tune with that tuner you'll be out of tune with everyone who tuned to 440. People tend to forget about this when they're using a tuner and may not be aware if it gets set to something odd. Or they may be careless in pushing buttons on the tuner and accidentally change their tuning pitch. Also, some tuners just don't work at all well in a bass or contra-bass range although they seem fine above that.

So MAYBE this is what happened that caused people to have "trouble with that tuner". Otherwise, I've found good tuners (TASCAM, Korg, etc.) to be rock solid. But I've had the guy who tunes my wife's piano (several times a year) express very skeptical views of tuner apps. So some care must be taken in using these devices.

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2024-10-07 5:57 p.m.

Just found a new one…AI generated descriptions in posts for trombones for sale. Especially the ones that say things like: ‘exceptionally well crafted’ on stencil horns, or ‘in excellent working condition’ when the entire bell section is in pieces…etc…

…but then again, they can be humorous to read…

Richard3rd · by **Richard3rd** » 2024-10-07 7:02 p.m.

Scooping notes. Drives me nuts. It is almost as if players are not sure of where the notes are. I've had to stop tunes and ask the section if they can actually play notes without that. They don't even realize they all do it.

Even worse than that is when it is done and the target note is not quite reached, leaving the final tone flat.

baileyman · by **baileyman** » 2024-10-08 10:08 a.m.

[quote="tbdana"]...I play in professional big bands and a community big band. In the community big band the lead trumpet player constantly plays behind the beat and with big, fat notes. It drags the whole band down in tempo. The rhythm section slows to match the trumpets, and then the trumpets lay back on the beat to slow it down further, in a death spiral loop. I swear, if the tunes went on long enough they'd all come to dead stops.

...[/quote]

Come to Boston. You can have get the same experience in a full pro band. And you'll wonder where the section blend went, too.

iranzi · 2024-10-10 10:32 a.m.

deleted

Mamaposaune · by **Mamaposaune** » 2024-10-10 11:46 a.m.

My pet peeve is with section mates that move around excessively during rehearsals and performances. It might be rocking back and forth, conducting motions, foot-tapping, etc. It's distracting.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-10-10 1:33 p.m.

I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-10-10 1:48 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.[/quote]

I do this. I keep getting arrangements where they don't break rests into phrases or anything that makes sense. 19 bars of rest, etc. I don't care if I look stupid.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-10-10 2:09 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.[/quote]

Yeah, I do this too. I'm just too stupid and easily distracted to count 175 measures rest in my head. So I have a system of finger counting. It's subtle. No one can see it. And if my mind wanders and I lose count, I just see where my fingers are positioned and I know where I am up to 99 measures rest.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-10-10 2:14 p.m.

I used to do this for long rests in concert band. Now my mind starts to wander at about measure 4. So I'm totally dependent on the 3rd trombone and his finger count if I don't know the phrasing yet. Otherwise, one of the trumpet players does this visibly enough that I can see it. But he's often wrong (they seem to have trouble counting to four, and sometimes to two, and definitely to 3).

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-10-10 2:51 p.m.

From a friend: "Counting rests? That's what the second trombone player is for." :)

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-10-10 3:34 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.[/quote]

Sometimes I finger-count in binary. Does that help?

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-10-10 3:55 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="ghmerrill" post_id="255404" time="1728581616" user_id="2941">
I kind of appreciate the guys who finger-count the measures in lengthy rests. It means that I can think of other things, mess with my mutes, etc., and still come in where I'm supposed to.[/quote]

Sometimes I finger-count in binary. Does that help?
</QUOTE>

Octal is more fun :evil:

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-10-10 3:58 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Octal is more fun :evil:[/quote]

Hmm. BCD is probably the most practical. I'll give it a try.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-11-12 9:45 p.m.

I don't actually mind applause in between movements. But I'm really bothered when applause starts too soon. The final release needs time to ring through the hall.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-11-12 10:31 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]I don't actually mind applause in between movements. But I'm really bothered when applause starts too soon. The final release needs time to ring through the hall.[/quote]

I am annoyed by applause between movements.

And I really hate when some jerk in the audience starts yelling "Bravo" while the last notes are still being played.

(Is this a New York phenomenon?)

On the other hand, I attended a Chicago Symphony Orchestra performance of Mahler 5 in Boston Symphony Hall in ~1972 - - the ending of the symphony was so moving that the audience was literally stunned; it seemed like a minute of total silence (probably only ~30 seconds) before the hall erupted. I'll never forget that concert - the best musical experience of my life! :!:

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-11-13 7:30 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]From a friend: "Counting rests? That's what the second trombone player is for." :)[/quote]

You only have to give them the wrong count once and that will cure them from ever asking again. :lol:

Mertelstein · by **Mertelstein** » 2024-12-11 6:30 a.m.

I'm reactivating this thread because I need a Dana-style rant - and it's probably one that will get me ejected from this forum, but...

The stereotypes of trombone players, which some sections live up to. Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted ;-)

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-12-11 11:45 a.m.

[quote="Mertelstein"]I'm reactivating this thread because I need a Dana-style rant - and it's probably one that will get me ejected from this forum, but...

The stereotypes of trombone players, which some sections live up to. Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted ;-)[/quote]

Great rant. I'm proud of you, and don't you give-in. I don't drink, either. Nothing against it, I just never really liked it. Whatever socialization I miss out on because of that, well, I can do without those people anyway. "The music doesn't stop when we put down our trombones" is the truth. It's all around us, everywhere, and I personally enjoy being able to experience it.

You can hang with me anytime. :)

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-12-11 12:18 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Mertelstein" post_id="261048" time="1733916615" user_id="17140">
I'm reactivating this thread because I need a Dana-style rant - and it's probably one that will get me ejected from this forum, but...

The stereotypes of trombone players, which some sections live up to. Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted ;-)[/quote]

Great rant. I'm proud of you, and don't you give-in. I don't drink, either. Nothing against it, I just never really liked it. Whatever socialization I miss out on because of that, well, I can do without those people anyway. "The music doesn't stop when we put down our trombones" is the truth. It's all around us, everywhere, and I personally enjoy being able to experience it.

You can hang with me anytime. :)
</QUOTE>

May I join you?

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-12-11 12:45 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]

May I join you?[/quote]

And now we have a section! :)

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-11 12:59 p.m.

[quote="Mertelstein"]Specifically that we all d*ck around and drink ourselves into oblivion. Yes, I went through that stage; but recently I got sick and for the last couple of years can't drink. It is unbelievably annoying how a) players of other instruments and even conductors in community / amateur groups just can't comprehend this and treat you like an alien; and b) that this automatically excludes you in some groups from some of the socialising / conversations in the brass section in general. Just because I don't drink doesn't mean I don't like hanging out with people, get offended by them drinking, or going to bars. Equally the fact that we're all supposed to be boisterous and loud-mouthed and not really interested in what others are doing when we're not playing and desperate for time off. Sometimes, it's nice to sit and listen and work out where you fit in a performance; and realise that the music doesn't just stop when we put down our trombones...

Now I'll sit back and wait to be booted ;-)[/quote]

So wait ... You're ....

A) Mad that some sections in your group think that trombone players drink too much and are idiots in general, and you think that's not really the case.

B) Equally mad at the idiot trombone players in the same group who drink too much and don't want to hang out with you because you don't drink

I see....

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-12-11 1:04 p.m.

Recent community band experience that has revealed some pet peeves (chronic irritations?):

People who don’t own a mute, and who don’t ask to borrow a mute even when the director tells the entire band, “If it’s marked ‘Muted’ and you’re playing it without a mute, you’re playing the wrong instrument.”

Trombonists who don’t take care of their instruments.

1. Someone above mentioned playing without lube. One kid I saw recently doesn’t lube his slide, the slide isn’t parallel, he’s using muscle to force the slide into place… there’s probably a dent or two somewhere… oy.

2. Not oiling the valve, the bearings or the linkage. “My valves is stuck!” “When did you last oil it?” “Oil it?” <<face palm>>

3. People who don’t clean their instruments. When I’m sitting near you and it smells like dead fish, it’s past time to give the horn a bath.

College kids who don’t know the names of the notes or the fingerings/positions.

People who play too loud all the time. I’m primarily a bass trombonist, and if I can hear you over me and the rest of band when we’re playing fortissimo or pianissimo, then it’s too loud.

Musicians who don’t (can’t? won’t?) play staccato. Musicians who can’t hold notes full value.

Musicians who don’t respond to calls, emails, or texts.

Now get off my lawn!!

Mertelstein · by **Mertelstein** » 2024-12-11 2:52 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]

Great rant. I'm proud of you, and don't you give-in. I don't drink, either. Nothing against it, I just never really liked it. Whatever socialization I miss out on because of that, well, I can do without those people anyway. "The music doesn't stop when we put down our trombones" is the truth. It's all around us, everywhere, and I personally enjoy being able to experience it.

You can hang with me anytime. :)[/quote]

Thank you! That's really lovely!

[quote="Kbiggs"]

May I join you?
[/quote]

Very much so!

[quote="harrisonreed"]

So wait ... You're ....

A) Mad that some sections in your group think that trombone players drink too much and are idiots in general, and you think that's not really the case.

B) Equally mad at the idiot trombone players in the same group who drink too much and don't want to hang out with you because you don't drink

I see....[/quote]

This was a good challenge, but you'll note I referred to 'the brass section in general' - actually all the lower brass in this group are brilliant, and good people. It's an amateur group where the trombones have an amazing mix of day jobs which without going into details all involve helping others (it's also the only section I've played in recently which is gender-balanced); and the Tuba player has a very similar outlook to the one I put forward. The problem comes with our brethren and sistren who play the OTHER brass instruments who very much a) live up to the stereotype and b) encourage others to put pressure on us to live up to it...

WilliamLang · by **WilliamLang** » 2024-12-11 3:39 p.m.

I really don't miss the "drink to network" vibe in my busier freelancing days. It takes on a life of its' own real quick.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-11 4:24 p.m.

[quote="Mertelstein"]This was a good challenge, but you'll note I referred to 'the brass section in general' - actually all the lower brass in this group are brilliant, and good people. It's an amateur group where the trombones have an amazing mix of day jobs which without going into details all involve helping others (it's also the only section I've played in recently which is gender-balanced); and the Tuba player has a very similar outlook to the one I put forward. The problem comes with our brethren and sistren who play the OTHER brass instruments who very much a) live up to the stereotype and b) encourage others to put pressure on us to live up to it...[/quote]

So, I see and call your semantics argument and raise you a very similar point:

If you do things or have a moral compass that set you apart from stereotypical idiots, and the same idiots playing whatever instrument don't want to hang out with you, why do you feel bad about being excluded from the group of idiots and still want to hang out with them?

I can't quite put my finger on it but some how it seems like you want to have your cake, and eat it, and also not have any calories or be seen eating the calories or seen as a calorie eater by the woodwind section.

That is a pet peeve of mine!

:tongue:

Mertelstein · by **Mertelstein** » 2024-12-11 4:51 p.m.

I suspect I am not being articulate with the pet peeve here…the main one is that the stereotyping of brass players is unhelpful I find - particularly when one struggles with not being able to drink anymore.

Regarding the being excluded from the group I think that is where I didn’t explain the point so well. That doesn’t really bother me a huge amount - as an ATCO during the “day” and with kids I don’t really have a social life any more! It is more the basic human decency of having any kind of conversation (eg decisions about repertoire) where if you don’t go to the bar, you don’t get a say. That’s essentially where this whole rant stems from…

And FWIW I agree “cake-ism” is indeed a high crime and misdemeanour and it was certainly not my intention to pursue that <EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-12-11 6:25 p.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]I can't quite put my finger on it but some how it seems like you want to have your cake, and eat it, and also not have any calories or be seen eating the calories or seen as a calorie eater by the woodwind section.[/quote]

Well, I gotta admit, that sounds good, to me. Especially the opinion of the woodsuckers.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-15 6:26 p.m.

I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.

We had one (just one) lesson in high school where we practiced standing, turning toward the audience, and smiling. I guess no one does that anymore.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2024-12-15 6:47 p.m.

Conductors who judge volume with their eyes (yes, I have been told to play quieter even when miming).

Tuning up using someone’s phone, ideally without proper warmup.

Foot tapping.

Conductors who insist on players transcribing bar numbers onto parts which only have letters. How hard can it be for the conductor to say “one bar before letter C“.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-12-15 6:49 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.

We had one (just one) lesson in high school where we practiced standing, turning toward the audience, and smiling. I guess no one does that anymore.[/quote]
Yeah, everyone does that, but trumpet players are even worse. After the last piece, I always see them putting their instrument in the case while the applause is still going. :horror:

tbdana · 2024-12-15 7:02 p.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]Yeah, everyone does that, but trumpet players are even worse. After the last piece, I always see them putting their instrument in the case while the applause is still going. :horror:[/quote]

I'm a huge offender, in some situations. If I don't have a lot of stuff to pack up, I'm in my car before the applause dies down. :D

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-12-15 7:12 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.[/quote]

I plead guilty. :redface: I'm trying to reform, since acknowledging applause is important.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2024-12-16 5:14 a.m.

[quote="Posaunus"]<QUOTE author="AtomicClock" post_id="261559" time="1734305173" user_id="17161">
I'm not sure if this is a pet peeve, but maybe it should be. It's starting to bother me, though I used to offend along with everyone else.

In today's concert, after each piece, while we were standing for applause, most people were shuffling music, getting the next piece set up. We should be appreciative of the applause, and shuffle papers during the (ample) remaining time.[/quote]

I plead guilty. :redface: I'm trying to reform, since acknowledging applause is important.
</QUOTE>
I'm not. :lol:

Thom · by **Thom** » 2024-12-16 9:58 a.m.

#1-"No! Practice at home." Is my pet peeve as well. Even if you have a day job, I bet most people make time for other hobbies, e.g. TV, Video Games, E-Books/Books on Tape, et cetera.

#2-Players of all instruments who chronically play 1-2 steps flat, sometimes sharp and tell you you are playing the wrong note or look at you with disgust on their faces <EMOJI seq="1f61e" tseq="1f61e">😞</EMOJI>

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-12-16 11:13 a.m.

[quote="MrHCinDE"]Conductors who insist on players transcribing bar numbers onto parts which only have letters. How hard can it be for the conductor to say “one bar before letter C“.[/quote]
I can understand that in a piece where rehearsal waypoints are few and far between. What frosts me is when a publisher numbers every measure in the score but not every measure on the parts, particularly when the rehearsal waypoints are letters or "rehearsal numbers" (rather than measure numbers).

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-16 11:56 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"]What frosts me is when a publisher numbers every measure in the score but not every measure on the parts, particularly when the rehearsal waypoints are letters or "rehearsal numbers" (rather than measure numbers).[/quote]

THIS.

They do this, and then the conductor (reasonably) believes, "Oh. They have bar numbers!" only to learn (upon saying, "We're starting at measure 141..." only to give a downbeat and nothing happens (because measure 141 also happens to be Rehearsal Letter J)"

Related to that, publishers who give the full score rehearsal letters, while the parts have rehearsal numbers that are not related to the letters in any way.

A little further afield, conductors who announce, "Starting at letter 'J'" and give you a millisecond to get a cup mute in place.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-12-16 12:29 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]They do this, and then the conductor (reasonably) believes, "Oh. They have bar numbers!" only to learn (upon saying, "We're starting at measure 141..." only to give a downbeat and nothing happens (because measure 141 also happens to be Rehearsal Letter J)"[/quote]
Ah, but what about when the conductor continues to do that over and over again, even after repeatedly being told that the individual parts don't have numbers. I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.

[quote="Dennis"]Related to that, publishers who give the full score rehearsal letters, while the parts have rehearsal numbers that are not related to the letters in any way.[/quote]
I've never seen that, but I have had times when the conductor's score isn't the same edition as the individual parts. This happens with some frequency with PD works downloaded from IMSLP. The conductor will have a "personal" score that they've studied and annotated, but the parts on IMSLP are from a different edition. Beyond the rehearsal waypoints being different, sometimes there are significant differences in the music itself.

[quote="Dennis"]A little further afield, conductors who announce, "Starting at letter 'J'" and give you a millisecond to get a cup mute in place.[/quote]
Ah, I tend to see this one from people who do a lot of choral conducting.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-12-16 1:06 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.[/quote]

Stupid Conductor Tricks would make an excellent thread on its own, and I encourage you to start it! :)

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-12-16 1:10 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="JohnL" post_id="261624" time="1734370165" user_id="119">
I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.[/quote]

Stupid Conductor Tricks would make an excellent thread on its own, and I encourage you to start it! :)
</QUOTE>
Yup. Until someone's comments find their way back to the conductor in question...

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-12-16 1:17 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="261628" time="1734372367" user_id="16498">

Stupid Conductor Tricks would make an excellent thread on its own, and I encourage you to start it! :)[/quote]
Yup. Until someone's comments find their way back to the conductor in question...
</QUOTE>

I think as long as no names were mentioned...

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-16 2:39 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="Dennis" post_id="261621" time="1734368210" user_id="175">They do this, and then the conductor (reasonably) believes, "Oh. They have bar numbers!" only to learn (upon saying, "We're starting at measure 141..." only to give a downbeat and nothing happens (because measure 141 also happens to be Rehearsal Letter J)"[/quote]
Ah, but what about when the conductor continues to do that over and over again, even after repeatedly being told that the individual parts don't have numbers. I've refrained from posting my list of "stupid conductor tricks" to this thread, but this one is definitely on said list.

[quote="Dennis"]Related to that, publishers who give the full score rehearsal letters, while the parts have rehearsal numbers that are not related to the letters in any way.[/quote]
I've never seen that, but I have had times when the conductor's score isn't the same edition as the individual parts. This happens with some frequency with PD works downloaded from IMSLP. The conductor will have a "personal" score that they've studied and annotated, but the parts on IMSLP are from a different edition. Beyond the rehearsal waypoints being different, sometimes there are significant differences in the music itself.

[quote="Dennis"]A little further afield, conductors who announce, "Starting at letter 'J'" and give you a millisecond to get a cup mute in place.[/quote]
Ah, I tend to see this one from people who do a lot of choral conducting.
</QUOTE>

1. Repeating the offense will move a conductor onto my "Folks I'd Rather Not Work With" list, or even the "Folks I Won't Work With" list. (With the "Rather Not" list, I'll play if it's something I really want to do. The other list is self-explanatory. It's pretty short, really.)

2. I hadn't thought about the different editions aspect of it. I saw it twice when I was music librarian for a group, and it probably was an edition thing. As librarian, I was asked to mark up the score so it would correspond to the parts, and as a back-up I numbered the score measures and we asked the players to number their parts. We ended up not playing the pieces because there was still conflict between the score and the parts. (One of them was Holst's wind band transcription of Jupiter from The Planets. The other piece was also Boosey & Hawkes, but I don't remember any more which it was.)

3. Yeah, choral conductors trying to conduct instrumentalists can be frustrating for all parties. Conductors who are string players can also be pretty bad about giving us a moment to get mutes in (and go back to check the key and time signatures for poorly copied/engraved pieces).

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-12-16 3:11 p.m.

I've mentioned this one before. I got a part with a large blank area marked "tacet jusq'au" then a few bars marked with rests, maybe a rehearsal mark, and notes to play. How in **** are you supposed to count this to come in on time? I wound up going to the score, and marking a bunch of rests with rehearsal marks on my page so at least I could count properly and so if the conductor says something like "start at Letter J", at least I know where he is.

officermayo · by **officermayo** » 2024-12-16 3:53 p.m.

Aged community band members who can no longer cut it, but insist on "playing" anyway. One or two things are caused by this: they play wrong notes and or play out of tune. Extra players have to be added to cover those parts. Nothing like a 6 man trombone section in a swing band.

I had a health issue that caused me to bow out for a couple of years so as not to bring down the band's performance. Now back for several years and my eyesight is diminishing. I currently scan and enlarge my parts and use special glasses and a light. It won't be much longer until I once again have to leave the group, but I will to not be "that guy" I so dispise.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2025-03-26 12:34 p.m.

I was reading ~~[url=https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=39853]~~Dana's recent thread, and was annoyed by the Dropbox sound player. It pretended to show an audio waveform, but I'm sure it is just nonsense lines. Similarly, many websites and apps visually show playback is active via a tiny spectrum analyzer (dancing vertical lines) which also has no bearing on the sound being played.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-03-26 12:54 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]I was reading ~~[url=https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=39853]~~Dana's recent thread, and was annoyed by the Dropbox sound player. It pretended to show an audio waveform, but I'm sure it is just nonsense lines. Similarly, many websites and apps visually show playback is active via a tiny spectrum analyzer (dancing vertical lines) which also has no bearing on the sound being played.[/quote]

Sorry, I don't know any other way to share these excerpts. But as I follow along it seems that most of the tall lines hit at the time of some accent or other sonic increase. So maybe there is some reason to it.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2025-03-26 1:02 p.m.

You shouldn't apologize; Dropbox should.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2025-03-26 2:21 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]Aged community band members who can no longer cut it, but insist on "playing" anyway. One or two things are caused by this: they play wrong notes and or play out of tune. Extra players have to be added to cover those parts. Nothing like a 6 man trombone section in a swing band.

I had a health issue that caused me to bow out for a couple of years so as not to bring down the band's performance. Now back for several years and my eyesight is diminishing. I currently scan and enlarge my parts and use special glasses and a light. It won't be much longer until I once again have to leave the group, but I will to not be "that guy" I so dispise.[/quote]

You highlight one of my pet peeves!

<ATTACHMENT filename="tumblr_o04fzfzXDl1qj8u1do4_400.gif" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~tumblr_o04fzfzXDl1qj8u1do4_400.gif</ATTACHMENT>

I would go easy on the old folks <EMOJI seq="1f61c" tseq="1f61c">😜</EMOJI>. We need them to show us the way. Or which ways to avoid, too!

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-03-26 3:08 p.m.

[quote="officermayo"]It won't be much longer until I once again have to leave the group, but I will to not be "that guy" I so dispise.[/quote]

I feel like I'm in the same boat. That day is coming, all too swiftly. So I'm grateful for every day I have.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2025-09-02 2:25 p.m.

I was probably playing music for 20 years before I realized this bizarre convention, which now peeves me.

Starting at or before a rehearsal letter/number is uncontroversial. But starting after one can be confusing. "Start 4 bars after letter K" and "Start on the 4th bar of letter K" mean the same thing musically, but different things logically. In the "after letter K" formulation, you skip only three bars between the letter and the starting point.

It's like telling a carpenter to cut 4 inches from the edge of the board, and they mark all 4 inches, but cut on the wrong side of the fourth.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2025-09-02 5:00 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]I was probably playing music for 20 years before I realized this bizarre convention, which now peeves me.

Starting at or before a rehearsal letter/number is uncontroversial. But starting after one can be confusing. "Start 4 bars after letter K" and "Start on the 4th bar of letter K" mean the same thing musically, but different things logically. In the "after letter K" formulation, you skip only three bars between the letter and the starting point.

It's like telling a carpenter to cut 4 inches from the edge of the board, and they mark all 4 inches, but cut on the wrong side of the fourth.[/quote]
If you think of "letter K" not as a measure, but as a marking at a barline, then it makes sense. Rehearsal letters are always placed at the barline, never over an entire measure.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-09-02 5:10 p.m.

I just got back from a trombone choir rehearsal and I have a pet peeve: Slowing down. Why is it that a group of trombones always seems to slow down? They can't keep the tempo. Every damn thing finishes a slower tempo than it started. Drives me crazy (although, for me, crazy is walking distance).

SGH · by **SGH** » 2025-09-02 5:15 p.m.

During rehearsal, the inevitable cut-off just before our pickup notes after a long rest, and then skipping our pickup notes/phrase when resuming.

LeTromboniste · by **LeTromboniste** » 2025-09-03 5:29 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I just got back from a trombone choir rehearsal and I have a pet peeve: Slowing down. Why is it that a group of trombones always seems to slow down? They can't keep the tempo. Every damn thing finishes a slower tempo than it started. Drives me crazy (although, for me, crazy is walking distance).[/quote]

That's definitely a real tendency, that has become a cliché and reputation for the trombone. To the point where sometimes I get told by trombone colleagues that I'm rushing something when I'm actually steady and they're slowing down (to be fair in some cases it's been true that I'm rushing, but in many cases it's quite clear to me that I'm with everyone else in the larger group). I work hard to get my students to not fall into that tendency and not perpetuate the reputation.

I am convinced that some of it is the result of the trombone world's obsession with evenness of tone, volume and articulation. That evenness can sometimes make things static, and fail to generate the momentum and tension that sustains the phrase going forward.

CalgaryTbone · by **CalgaryTbone** » 2025-09-10 9:55 p.m.

One of my favorite quotes attributed to Ed Anderson, whose career was with the Cleveland Orchestra and at Indiana University - the greatest compliment you can get from a conductor is : "Trombones, you are rushing a bit, and I would like more sound from you".

Still waiting to hear that!

Jim Scott

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2025-09-11 7:45 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]I just got back from a trombone choir rehearsal and I have a pet peeve: Slowing down. Why is it that a group of trombones always seems to slow down? They can't keep the tempo. Every damn thing finishes a slower tempo than it started. Drives me crazy (although, for me, crazy is walking distance).[/quote]

Uhh.....maybe there's a time and a place for a little toe-tapping in order to get some kin-esthetic response to the music?

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2025-09-12 4:39 a.m.

[quote="Cmillar"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="284738" time="1756847418" user_id="16498">
I just got back from a trombone choir rehearsal and I have a pet peeve: Slowing down. Why is it that a group of trombones always seems to slow down? They can't keep the tempo. Every damn thing finishes a slower tempo than it started. Drives me crazy (although, for me, crazy is walking distance).[/quote]

Uhh.....maybe there's a time and a place for a little toe-tapping in order to get some kin-esthetic response to the music?
</QUOTE>
Guarantee that will do nothing.

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2025-09-12 9:52 a.m.

[quote="brassmedic"]<QUOTE author="Cmillar" post_id="285267" time="1757634315" user_id="3134">

Uhh.....maybe there's a time and a place for a little toe-tapping in order to get some kin-esthetic response to the music?[/quote]
Guarantee that will do nothing.
</QUOTE>

Well, I believe that some work at home with a metronome, some toe-tapping, body movement, dancing, clapping, play-along-with, etc. etc.....could work for most people.

Unfortunately, some people 'have it' and some don't 'have it' (an innate sense of inner time and rhythm, that is)

But I'm a fan of what the late Sam Burtis (via Carmine Caruso) said, in that it's helpful to tap your foot (or toes in your shoe) while practicing in order to help get the music 'into your body' and to get some kind of 'inner-physical' relationship to playing in good time.

These type of things can be done with groups of people as well in order to get everyone 'in synch'.

Singing along together, clapping together, dancing, etc..... whatever brings a group into 'synch' with each other.

Some will 'get it', some won't unfortunately. But, sense of time is what will determine how far one can mature and improve as a musician in any style of music.

As to Dana's problem....it is a drag to play with people that drag.

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2025-09-12 11:15 a.m.

[quote="Cmillar"]Uhh.....maybe there's a time and a place for a little toe-tapping in order to get some kin-esthetic response to the music?[/quote]

Oh, but they do! Even Jeff Reynolds does it. But all you have to do is look around at the toe-tappers to see that they are all tapping at different times, in different tempos, and often along with what they are playing rather than what the beat actually is.

And I do have to say, the dragging usually begins in two places: (1) the bass trombones for some inexplicable reason and (2) tenor trombones whenever they come to a difficult passage. They'll slow down to get the notes rather than keep the time and clam or ghost some notes. The result is that every piece played, left to its own devices, becomes a ballad and would grind to an absolute halt if left to go on long enough. They'd freeze in time, like pillars of trombone salt falling into a black hole. It might actually end the universe. Very dangerous! :D

Cmillar · by **Cmillar** » 2025-09-12 2:45 p.m.

[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="Cmillar" post_id="285267" time="1757634315" user_id="3134">
Uhh.....maybe there's a time and a place for a little toe-tapping in order to get some kin-esthetic response to the music?[/quote]

Oh, but they do! Even Jeff Reynolds does it. But all you have to do is look around at the toe-tappers to see that they are all tapping at different times, in different tempos, and often along with what they are playing rather than what the beat actually is.

And I do have to say, the dragging usually begins in two places: (1) the bass trombones for some inexplicable reason and (2) tenor trombones whenever they come to a difficult passage. They'll slow down to get the notes rather than keep the time and clam or ghost some notes. The result is that every piece played, left to its own devices, becomes a ballad and would grind to an absolute halt if left to go on long enough. They'd freeze in time, like pillars of trombone salt falling into a black hole. It might actually end the universe. Very dangerous! :D
</QUOTE>

Love this!

On a side note, as much as I love ballads, beautiful transcriptions of great choral works, and other trombone choir pieces that show off our beautiful instrument, there’s a strange predomination of ‘slowish’ trombone choir written the last several years.

A symptom of our times? Mournful eulogies? And yet more slow mournful elegies?

Maybe it’s time for trombone choirs to revive all the great Bach Contrapunctus arrangements that have been done for trombones.

Those pieces make you swim or sink! And, you have to get your sense of rhythms together.

brassmedic · by **brassmedic** » 2025-09-19 4:21 p.m.

[quote="Cmillar"]

Unfortunately, some people 'have it' and some don't 'have it' (an innate sense of inner time and rhythm, that is)

But I'm a fan of what the late Sam Burtis (via Carmine Caruso) said, in that it's helpful to tap your foot (or toes in your shoe) while practicing in order to help get the music 'into your body' and to get some kind of 'inner-physical' relationship to playing in good time.

These type of things can be done with groups of people as well in order to get everyone 'in synch'.

Singing along together, clapping together, dancing, etc..... whatever brings a group into 'synch' with each other.

Some will 'get it', some won't unfortunately. But, sense of time is what will determine how far one can mature and improve as a musician in any style of music.[/quote]
Why can't you get 'in synch' by playing your instruments together?

The problem with foot tapping as a remedy for a bad sense of rhythm is that it doesn't work. I observe players tapping their feet, and generally their foot tapping is not in time, and doesn't even synch up with what they are playing. Some people have discussed jazz or pop players who tap their feet as a type of dancing with the music. That's fine, but in the examples posted here, I don't think the foot tapping is what gives them a good sense of time; I think it's a reaction to their sense of time. I just don't see anyone who "fixed" their sense of time with foot tapping.

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