Courtois New Valve system?

PDH · by **PDH** » 2024-10-22 10:03 p.m.

Hello, Have you ever seen a Courtois Valve like this in the picture? I'm interested, but I don't think I've ever seen it sold in a store. Does anyone have any information?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-10-22 10:07 p.m.

Looks like a normal Hagmann setup with an aftermarket brace.

timbone · by **timbone** » 2024-10-22 11:52 p.m.

The photo is a Hagman but PDH is probably referring to the ICON valve used on the AC422. It is in between a standard rotor and Hagman. It is a valve that is patented in Germany and is like a Greenhoe. The valve was developed a few years ago because Rene's output had gotten considerably smaller in production volume. I also think the "Florida model" which is Joel Vaisse's model has a star valve wrap with that valve. Those are both two instruments worth a look.

bassbone1993 · 2024-10-22 11:53 p.m.

The Florida model looks much more interesting than any of their other tenors so far. I'm still waiting for a creation bass that isn't 10k and has axials (wishful thinking)

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-10-23 12:01 a.m.

The ICON valve B&S instruments are mind-blowing... the Sarastro with ICONs is one of the only horns I would give up my Sarastro for.

PDH · by **PDH** » 2024-10-23 12:02 a.m.

Maybe it's AC421 or Ac420, it's got a Hagman valve. It looks like the hagmann used by Jorgen van rijen.

bassbone1993 · by **bassbone1993** » 2024-10-23 12:08 a.m.

I think they're developing a model with him as well, but I could be wrong. I think there was the Amsterdam and the Berlin before Stefan Schultz switched to Shires

hiktro · by **hiktro** » 2024-10-23 5:33 a.m.

That is AC421 sold by Mercari.

The plate between the braces in the photo was installed by a seller.

He imitated the plate on Hagmann's valve section.

http://www.trombone.ch/EN/customshop.html#convertible

LowBrassJunkie · by **LowBrassJunkie** » 2024-10-23 11:19 a.m.

[quote="bassbone1993"]I think they're developing a model with him as well, but I could be wrong. I think there was the Amsterdam and the Berlin before Stefan Schultz switched to Shires[/quote]

That is correct. The brace in question is an aftermarket item.

PDH · by **PDH** » 2024-10-23 12:13 p.m.

Oh I didn't know that. Then did anyone know where to buy brace like that?

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-10-23 1:46 p.m.

Easy enough for a decent tech to make from sheet brass

timbone · by **timbone** » 2024-10-23 8:56 p.m.

The "Amsterdammer", which is Jorgen's horn was developed when he was playing with the ny phil. He needed something else in that hall that his previous ac420BR wasn't suited for (it worked for the Concertebouw). He also told me he needed the resistance of a closed wrap. It was fun to see a recital by Jorgen and after that, people would come to the booth looking for a closed wrap......! With Stephan Shultz, he never arrived at a conclusion much like nikarikov- they are perpetual tinkers.....the thayre valve didn't have success in Europe due to leaking, although Courtois made a lot of AC420t's in the early 2000's. Courtois was the first company to partner with rene Hagman. I did a shootout years ago at the ETW and believe it or not, the Courtois AC420BO (standard rotor) compared very well with the Edwards Alessi model, and close or equal was a Getzen model (4047?). I tested everything when I worked for Courtois, and all the other manufacturers were my friends. Just an observation of course. That leads me to my next conclusion- soldered leadpipes. The Alessi model had a soldered leadpipe bucking the trend of the modular concept. Maybe that doesn't work for you with your current mouthpiece? It's worth pursuing as John Marcellus has told me. The mouthpiece needs to mate with the horn for ultimate playability.

PDH · by **PDH** » 2024-10-23 9:36 p.m.

It's interesting.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-10-23 11:14 p.m.

[quote="timbone"]The "Amsterdammer", which is Jorgen's horn was developed when he was playing with the ny phil. He needed something else in that hall that his previous ac420BR wasn't suited for (it worked for the Concertebouw). He also told me he needed the resistance of a closed wrap.[/quote]

Maybe the bracing gave him the resistance? Unless most of what he played in the NY Phil was on the F side? Seems weird to me.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-10-24 12:12 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="timbone" post_id="256736" time="1729731377" user_id="3176">
The "Amsterdammer", which is Jorgen's horn was developed when he was playing with the ny phil. He needed something else in that hall that his previous ac420BR wasn't suited for (it worked for the Concertebouw). He also told me he needed the resistance of a closed wrap.[/quote]

Maybe the bracing gave him the resistance? Unless most of what he played in the NY Phil was on the F side? Seems weird to me.
</QUOTE>

Even many of The Greats listen with their eyes.

timbone · by **timbone** » 2024-10-26 8:35 p.m.

To be clear, with the 420BR, the resistance came from the closed wrap and standard rotor. He also used an extra heavy slide. Later he switched because of the hall and the players.

Digidog · by **Digidog** » 2024-11-06 12:04 p.m.

[quote="timbone"]To be clear, with the 420BR, the resistance came from the closed wrap and standard rotor. He also used an extra heavy slide. Later he switched because of the hall and the players.[/quote]

I would not ascribe a closed wrap to be the primary source of resistance in a horn. I have played many open wrap horns that have felt totally confined and stuffy compared to similar closed wrap dittos.

Scientifically the feeling of resistance comes from other factors than the bends of the tubing and the weight of the materials used, unless the interor is extremely coarse and rough to the airflow and the materials are extremely vibration-dampening.

I'd give no bigger concern to what wrap there is on the horn I'd choose to play. I happen to prefer open wraps from a balance viewpoint, but if a closed wrap plays better and feels better, I have no second thoughts of using such a horn.

LowBrassJunkie · by **LowBrassJunkie** » 2024-11-13 5:31 p.m.

The 420BR has open wrap versions of in the 420BO, 420BH, 420BT, etc. So, yes, the closed wrap and rotor would be the primary source of resistance when comparing it to the same instrument but in open wrap configuration.

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Courtois New Valve system?