Playing angle
- sirisobhakya
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Jun 11, 2018
I sold my main horn, a Yamaha YBL-830 double rotor bass, almost 2 months ago to finance a new horn, arriving this Christmas. Since that time I have been using my spare horn, a Yamaha YBL-321, and more recently my former school’s horn a Bach 50B. I didn’t sell the mouthpiece, though.
I notice I miss many notes on the 321. Granted, I am not a pro, and I missed notes on the 830 too. But that happened rarely. On the 321 it happens in almost every PHRASES. I thought that this is because the 321 is so vastly different from the 830, but man it’s frustrating. The 50B that was recently repaired, while a bit closer to the 830 in term of resistance, still does not solve this problem. It annoys me to the point that I don’t want to pick up the horn, and I worried that maybe I am losing my skill.
Today it just occured to me that I seem to miss the note “upward” (I have to lower my lips and pucker it a bit more that I used to to not miss the note). Other notes speak better as well if I do so. I also realize that both of the alternate horns (321 and 50B), are more front-heavy than the 830. So maybe the horns are tilted too much to the front?
So I tried tilting the 50B back just a bit more, and that’s when the Eureka moment hit me. Every note speak much better without having to modify my embouchure, and I don’t miss the notes that often anymore. This is something I totally overlooked, and I find quite interesting, especially for thise who have to use horn supplied to them with no opportunity to test-play or choose the horn before being assigned, such as in school settings.
Now the problem is that the posture is hard on my left hand because of the imbalance, but at least that can be solved quite easily, not on the school horn though!
I notice I miss many notes on the 321. Granted, I am not a pro, and I missed notes on the 830 too. But that happened rarely. On the 321 it happens in almost every PHRASES. I thought that this is because the 321 is so vastly different from the 830, but man it’s frustrating. The 50B that was recently repaired, while a bit closer to the 830 in term of resistance, still does not solve this problem. It annoys me to the point that I don’t want to pick up the horn, and I worried that maybe I am losing my skill.
Today it just occured to me that I seem to miss the note “upward” (I have to lower my lips and pucker it a bit more that I used to to not miss the note). Other notes speak better as well if I do so. I also realize that both of the alternate horns (321 and 50B), are more front-heavy than the 830. So maybe the horns are tilted too much to the front?
So I tried tilting the 50B back just a bit more, and that’s when the Eureka moment hit me. Every note speak much better without having to modify my embouchure, and I don’t miss the notes that often anymore. This is something I totally overlooked, and I find quite interesting, especially for thise who have to use horn supplied to them with no opportunity to test-play or choose the horn before being assigned, such as in school settings.
Now the problem is that the posture is hard on my left hand because of the imbalance, but at least that can be solved quite easily, not on the school horn though!
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Yeah, that is easy to overlook.
Another trick: play on a euphonium or a baritone and look in the mirror and compare that horn angle to your trombone. Should be pretty similar, but often it's not and when it's not it should invite investigation.
You can also play both left and right handed and see if your angles change.
Another trick: play on a euphonium or a baritone and look in the mirror and compare that horn angle to your trombone. Should be pretty similar, but often it's not and when it's not it should invite investigation.
You can also play both left and right handed and see if your angles change.
- atopper333
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Mar 09, 2022
A counterweight might help…
- Wilktone
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
Probably the different balance of the horn has altered your playing angle. Donald Reinhardt, who was well known for helping brass musicians on their embouchure technique, got interested in the topic when he damaged his trombone. When it came back from the shot, the counterweight wasn't put back on and the horn was front heavy. He ended up playing with a different horn angle than he was used to and discovered the lower angle improved his playing dramatically. He ended up studying other players to see why they were different.
Finding a student's most efficient horn angle, and the adjustments to the horn angle that can happen as the musician plays in different registers, is an important part of a lot of my teaching. It's something I picked up from Doug Elliott, who picked it up from Reinhardt. Catch a lesson with Doug to learn more.
Dave
Finding a student's most efficient horn angle, and the adjustments to the horn angle that can happen as the musician plays in different registers, is an important part of a lot of my teaching. It's something I picked up from Doug Elliott, who picked it up from Reinhardt. Catch a lesson with Doug to learn more.
Dave
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
[quote="Wilktone"]Probably the different balance of the horn has altered your playing angleFinding a student's most efficient horn angle, and the adjustments to the horn angle that can happen as the musician plays in different registers, is an important part of a lot of my teaching.[/quote]
I recently picked up on the difference between the horn angle when I practice (standing always), and when rehearsing in an ensemble: basically, I hold the horn closer to parallel to the floor when seated (makes it easier to align the stand and my view of the conductor) than when standing, and my accuracy and endurance suffer for it!
I am a Reinhardt Type IIIA embouchure, is this in line with expectations?
I recently picked up on the difference between the horn angle when I practice (standing always), and when rehearsing in an ensemble: basically, I hold the horn closer to parallel to the floor when seated (makes it easier to align the stand and my view of the conductor) than when standing, and my accuracy and endurance suffer for it!
I am a Reinhardt Type IIIA embouchure, is this in line with expectations?
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Well yes…
Always try to keep things where it works best, not influenced by other stuff.
I have an issue with keeping the horn at a good angle while seeing the music on the stand. I’m halfway considering trying a bent shank to help with that.
Always try to keep things where it works best, not influenced by other stuff.
I have an issue with keeping the horn at a good angle while seeing the music on the stand. I’m halfway considering trying a bent shank to help with that.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Well yes…
Always try to keep things where it works best, not influenced by other stuff.
I have an issue with keeping the horn at a good angle while seeing the music on the stand. I’m halfway considering trying a bent shank to help with that.[/quote]
For a number of reasons, I always played with an <I>angle-shank</I> mouthpiece. Apart from allowing the instrument to project better, it also allows the gooseneck to sit comfortably on one's shoulder, giving a "firmer" overall grip and allowing slide forces to be more nearly horizontal (rather than partially working against "gravity"). For alto, I use a 15º angle—this removes the feeling that the gooseneck is rubbing up against your ear. For tenor: 12º. For bass: 10º.
Doug: please "fullway" try it! The vertex is right at the throat so that there is absolutely no acoustic effect on the sound waves. Existing mouthpieces can be modified either by heating and (careful) bending or by cutting a tiny wedge, bending and soldering—of course, making sure there are no discontinuities inside.
This would be a nice "option" for commercial mouthpieces.
The idea has been around for a long time—see Shorty Rogers' flugelhorn mouthpiece.
.
Always try to keep things where it works best, not influenced by other stuff.
I have an issue with keeping the horn at a good angle while seeing the music on the stand. I’m halfway considering trying a bent shank to help with that.[/quote]
For a number of reasons, I always played with an <I>angle-shank</I> mouthpiece. Apart from allowing the instrument to project better, it also allows the gooseneck to sit comfortably on one's shoulder, giving a "firmer" overall grip and allowing slide forces to be more nearly horizontal (rather than partially working against "gravity"). For alto, I use a 15º angle—this removes the feeling that the gooseneck is rubbing up against your ear. For tenor: 12º. For bass: 10º.
Doug: please "fullway" try it! The vertex is right at the throat so that there is absolutely no acoustic effect on the sound waves. Existing mouthpieces can be modified either by heating and (careful) bending or by cutting a tiny wedge, bending and soldering—of course, making sure there are no discontinuities inside.
This would be a nice "option" for commercial mouthpieces.
The idea has been around for a long time—see Shorty Rogers' flugelhorn mouthpiece.
.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
I had never thought about a bent mouthpiece. I could use a little bend to the right to get the bell pipe off my neck on my small horn. Could an existing mouthpiece be bent or does it have to be special ordered? Who could copy a Shilke 51C4 but with a bent shank?
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
If Doug started making bent/angled shanks, I would buy a few.
- Sesquitone
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Apr 25, 2022
[quote="VJOFan"]I had never thought about a bent mouthpiece. I could use a little bend to the right to get the bell pipe off my neck on my small horn. Could an existing mouthpiece be bent or does it have to be special ordered? Who could copy a Shilke 51C4 but with a bent shank?[/quote]
Any competent brass tech can easily create an angle-shank mouthpiece from an existing commercial one. The important thing is to create the angle right at the throat. If the external dimensions are narrow there, the "bend" can be made by heating the metal locally. In any case, a very small "wedge" can be cut right over the throat, the angle can be made there and then sealed with solder. A "bend to the right" is just a matter of rotating the mouthpiece until you find the most comfortable position.
Measuring the desired angle while bending can be done in a number of ways—for example, laying out a template (like a protractor), with cross-hatching at right-angles. As I mentioned, for smaller instruments (like an alto or a small tenor), 15º works well. Somewhat smaller angles for larger instruments.
Any competent brass tech can easily create an angle-shank mouthpiece from an existing commercial one. The important thing is to create the angle right at the throat. If the external dimensions are narrow there, the "bend" can be made by heating the metal locally. In any case, a very small "wedge" can be cut right over the throat, the angle can be made there and then sealed with solder. A "bend to the right" is just a matter of rotating the mouthpiece until you find the most comfortable position.
Measuring the desired angle while bending can be done in a number of ways—for example, laying out a template (like a protractor), with cross-hatching at right-angles. As I mentioned, for smaller instruments (like an alto or a small tenor), 15º works well. Somewhat smaller angles for larger instruments.
- dbwhitaker
- Posts: 196
- Joined: May 16, 2019
[quote="AtomicClock"]If Doug started making bent/angled shanks, I would buy a few.[/quote]
I would, too. My best angle puts my bass bell directly in front of my eyes. I end up having to use a different angle when I'm reading music.
I would, too. My best angle puts my bass bell directly in front of my eyes. I end up having to use a different angle when I'm reading music.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="Sesquitone"]The important thing is to create the angle right at the throat.[/quote]
Am I right in thinking that Doug puts the throat right at the cup/shank interface? It would be hard to cut out a wedge there.
Am I right in thinking that Doug puts the throat right at the cup/shank interface? It would be hard to cut out a wedge there.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
No, and I don't do it that way
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
What horn did you get to replace the 830?
- Doldom
- Posts: 139
- Joined: May 12, 2018
Doug made me several bent shanks some months ago, and for me it definetely helps. My embouchure is somewhat left tilted and my neck is in the way of instrument's neckpipe. For instrument with narrow slide, especially small bores, bent shank is very helpful. For instrument with wide slides, I'm still experimenting and I can use normal shanks too but for me it is still a little more helpful to use bent shanks.