Mystery straight F bass trombone
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I recently snagged a genuine F bass trombone on eBay. (NEVER thought that would happen!) While the maker (Jul. Rudolph-Gotha) and year (1937) are not a mystery as they're stamped on the bell, everything else about this is. I'm wondering if any historians on here know a little bit more about this instrument.
The specs are as follows: full-length F slide (missing the handle), .510-.590" (13-15mm) slide bore, 10" bell, receiver that swallows bass shank mouthpieces and is big enough to take a tuba mouthpiece, and a weight of about 658 tons. (Seriously, this horn is SO heavy! Even without adding any valves you'd need an Ergobone to play it for long periods.)
The slide works well and the horn is very playable - moreso than most F contras that I've played. It also has an enormous sound with seemingly infinite core. Using my bass trombone mouthpiece (which barely fits), it sounds as big and powerful as a contra to me. Pedal notes are explosive and eat my modern bass trombone for lunch. But it also has a usable high register and doesn't feel like trying to turn a container ship. I think I love it.
But, what was it made for? Military use? 1937 seems pretty late to be making an F bass trombone.
The specs are as follows: full-length F slide (missing the handle), .510-.590" (13-15mm) slide bore, 10" bell, receiver that swallows bass shank mouthpieces and is big enough to take a tuba mouthpiece, and a weight of about 658 tons. (Seriously, this horn is SO heavy! Even without adding any valves you'd need an Ergobone to play it for long periods.)
The slide works well and the horn is very playable - moreso than most F contras that I've played. It also has an enormous sound with seemingly infinite core. Using my bass trombone mouthpiece (which barely fits), it sounds as big and powerful as a contra to me. Pedal notes are explosive and eat my modern bass trombone for lunch. But it also has a usable high register and doesn't feel like trying to turn a container ship. I think I love it.
But, what was it made for? Military use? 1937 seems pretty late to be making an F bass trombone.
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
What a cool horn, lucky you! and it seems to be in a pretty good state!
My best guess is that is was intended for military use or use in a protestant Posaunenchor (basically a church trombone and/or other brass choir).
Pretty sure that it was not intended for opera or symphony Orchestra. At that time people were using B flat basses and F contras I think, but not F bass trombones anymore.
My best guess is that is was intended for military use or use in a protestant Posaunenchor (basically a church trombone and/or other brass choir).
Pretty sure that it was not intended for opera or symphony Orchestra. At that time people were using B flat basses and F contras I think, but not F bass trombones anymore.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Interesting info on the company here, but you probably already found it:
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/ ... hisrec=643">https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php?thisrec=643</LINK_TEXT>
Very cool horn.
I should get back to learning my F alto.
So is that actually the same length as an F horn?
<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/ ... hisrec=643">https://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/display.php?thisrec=643</LINK_TEXT>
Very cool horn.
I should get back to learning my F alto.
So is that actually the same length as an F horn?
- bitbckt
- Posts: 298
- Joined: Aug 19, 2020
Piling on: wow, that is cool. I'm looking forward to hearing it featured in your next multitrack! ;)
- EdwardSolomon
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
It is undoubtedly a Kirchenposaune. I have one from around a decade later, made in the German Democratic Republic. The Kirchenposaune (lit. "church trombone") was a 19th century development, in which the various sizes of trombone continued to be manufactured for the Protestant Posaunenchor in smaller bore sizes compared to orchestral and military band instruments. The bore of my instrument is 0.525".
- Tbarh
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Aug 16, 2018
Looks nickel plated ..Which would explain some of the heavy weight ..<EMOJI seq="1f609" tseq="1f609">😉</EMOJI>
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Oh, I am insanely jealous now.
Beautiful horn, I look forward to hearing it do something fun in one of your arrangements.
Cheers,
Andy
Beautiful horn, I look forward to hearing it do something fun in one of your arrangements.
Cheers,
Andy
- jonathanharker
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Aug 14, 2022
[quote="EdwardSolomon"]The Kirchenposaune (lit. "church trombone") was a 19th century development, in which the various sizes of trombone continued to be manufactured for the Protestant Posaunenchor in smaller bore sizes compared to orchestral and military band instruments. The bore of my instrument is 0.525".[/quote]
Did (bass in F) Kirchenposaunen ever have valve attachments, or was Dehmel's design for opera pits the first?
Did (bass in F) Kirchenposaunen ever have valve attachments, or was Dehmel's design for opera pits the first?
- EdwardSolomon
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="jonathanharker"]Did (bass in F) Kirchenposaunen ever have valve attachments, or was Dehmel's design for opera pits the first?[/quote]
No, Dehmel based his design on the large bore military band F bass trombone.
The Kirchenposaune was a narrower bore instrument than the orchestral instrument, which was narrower in turn than the military band instrument.
The first iteration of the military band F bass trombone as a contrabass trombone was the application of a B flat valve, so Dehmel was adapting an existing design, much as did Sattler before him with the B flat Tenorbaßposaune. The F/BB flat contrabass trombone existed as a Kruspe model around the turn of the 20th century, but clearly didn't really catch on. The instrument that Dehmel designed was played by him in the Bayreuther Festspielorchester and left to the orchestra when he left in 1924.
No, Dehmel based his design on the large bore military band F bass trombone.
The Kirchenposaune was a narrower bore instrument than the orchestral instrument, which was narrower in turn than the military band instrument.
The first iteration of the military band F bass trombone as a contrabass trombone was the application of a B flat valve, so Dehmel was adapting an existing design, much as did Sattler before him with the B flat Tenorbaßposaune. The F/BB flat contrabass trombone existed as a Kruspe model around the turn of the 20th century, but clearly didn't really catch on. The instrument that Dehmel designed was played by him in the Bayreuther Festspielorchester and left to the orchestra when he left in 1924.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
The bell section diameter and expansion almost looks like the bugle of a euphonium!
- Finetales
- Posts: 1482
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]So is that actually the same length as an F horn?[/quote]
Yep! Same as F tuba or F contrabass trombone.
[quote="EdwardSolomon"]It is undoubtedly a Kirchenposaune. I have one from around a decade later, made in the German Democratic Republic. The Kirchenposaune (lit. "church trombone") was a 19th century development, in which the various sizes of trombone continued to be manufactured for the Protestant Posaunenchor in smaller bore sizes compared to orchestral and military band instruments. The bore of my instrument is 0.525".[/quote]
Great info, thanks!
I will say, even though it starts at .510", the lower tube being .590" seems exceptionally large. A .08" difference is big even for German dual bore standards. (For reference, there is also a .08" difference between .467" and .547", which would be an absurd combination!) A .590" slide tube is comfortably in contra bore territory. And since the receiver is so large (I suspect there is no leadpipe), the whole instrument feels huge.
[quote="Kbiggs"]The bell section diameter and expansion almost looks like the bugle of a euphonium![/quote]
Yes, the throat is massive! I'd love to compare measurements with a contra throat.
Yep! Same as F tuba or F contrabass trombone.
[quote="EdwardSolomon"]It is undoubtedly a Kirchenposaune. I have one from around a decade later, made in the German Democratic Republic. The Kirchenposaune (lit. "church trombone") was a 19th century development, in which the various sizes of trombone continued to be manufactured for the Protestant Posaunenchor in smaller bore sizes compared to orchestral and military band instruments. The bore of my instrument is 0.525".[/quote]
Great info, thanks!
I will say, even though it starts at .510", the lower tube being .590" seems exceptionally large. A .08" difference is big even for German dual bore standards. (For reference, there is also a .08" difference between .467" and .547", which would be an absurd combination!) A .590" slide tube is comfortably in contra bore territory. And since the receiver is so large (I suspect there is no leadpipe), the whole instrument feels huge.
[quote="Kbiggs"]The bell section diameter and expansion almost looks like the bugle of a euphonium![/quote]
Yes, the throat is massive! I'd love to compare measurements with a contra throat.