seek advice - new york bach 36 (1940?)
- michaelsteinman
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Aug 03, 2024
Hi everybody,
Living and working in France, I recently picked up a beautiful old Bach 36 from a guy in Germany.
I have basically 2 questions for y'all...
1. The sound is wonderful but, the laquer on the bell is well cracked, there are a few red-rust spots and the worst thing is - at some point someone must have closed the case with the mouthpiece still on the slide because there's is that awful ding and scar on the side of the bell that one sees sometimes in student models. Of course it's pretty much right in line of sight when you're playing - so that sucks. Anyway, I contacted a laquer specialist in Germany who says they've done thousands of Bach instruments over the last 50 years and that re-laquering the instrument does not change the sound and it's just a myth. I wanted to get your take on the subject.
2. I find the slide to be rather heavy. I had someone "light-weight" the slide of one of my other horns years ago back in Los Angeles and it was a lot more comfortable. My question is - do you think it would be ok to "light-weight" the slide on this vintage instrument? I'm sure it would be more comfortable to play. But I also want to respect the gear.
thanks for any considered response
con spirito,
Michael Steinman
Living and working in France, I recently picked up a beautiful old Bach 36 from a guy in Germany.
I have basically 2 questions for y'all...
1. The sound is wonderful but, the laquer on the bell is well cracked, there are a few red-rust spots and the worst thing is - at some point someone must have closed the case with the mouthpiece still on the slide because there's is that awful ding and scar on the side of the bell that one sees sometimes in student models. Of course it's pretty much right in line of sight when you're playing - so that sucks. Anyway, I contacted a laquer specialist in Germany who says they've done thousands of Bach instruments over the last 50 years and that re-laquering the instrument does not change the sound and it's just a myth. I wanted to get your take on the subject.
2. I find the slide to be rather heavy. I had someone "light-weight" the slide of one of my other horns years ago back in Los Angeles and it was a lot more comfortable. My question is - do you think it would be ok to "light-weight" the slide on this vintage instrument? I'm sure it would be more comfortable to play. But I also want to respect the gear.
thanks for any considered response
con spirito,
Michael Steinman
- JohnL
- Posts: 2529
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="RobL"]Have you considered obtaining a separate lightweight slide?[/quote]
You wouldn't even need a whole slide, just the outer slide. You could get someone to build one for you...
You wouldn't even need a whole slide, just the outer slide. You could get someone to build one for you...
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I would personally do neither, but I also don't think it would be something I'd be particularly concerned about if the shop that you're using is qualified. It sounds like they are but it IS possible (I dare say easy) to screw a trombone up with too much lacquer. It's reversible, but costs money.
You do run the risk of damaging the outer slide tubes by removing the nickel oversleeves. As someone noted, you could either order a new set of tubes or a new slide. If you're going through the effort maybe a carbon fiber slide is in the cards!!
You do run the risk of damaging the outer slide tubes by removing the nickel oversleeves. As someone noted, you could either order a new set of tubes or a new slide. If you're going through the effort maybe a carbon fiber slide is in the cards!!
- brassmedic
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Dec 14, 2018
It's not going to sound and play the same if you take the oversleeves off.
- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
IF you want a lightweight slide, then wouldn't that be a different horn?
- greenbean
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Go for it! Yeah, removing the oversleeves might change the horn a bit. It might improve it!
- UATrombone
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sep 15, 2024
If you'll deside to relaquer bell ask your tech what kind of laquer they'll put on it.
If it'll be nitro cellulose - it's good, because you can easy remove it if something is wrong with horn after relaquering.
With epoxy one it's not so easy...
If it'll be nitro cellulose - it's good, because you can easy remove it if something is wrong with horn after relaquering.
With epoxy one it's not so easy...
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I personally love the sound of the old Bachs with the equal length oversleeves. Nice deep chocolately live try at I don’t get from any of their newer slides. Yes, they are heavier. But you won’t get that same feel and response from a lighter one.
That said, most of my playing outside my practice room is with lighter horns and slides. But when I really want to enjoy my sound, it’s the heavier slides.
Cheers,
Andy
That said, most of my playing outside my practice room is with lighter horns and slides. But when I really want to enjoy my sound, it’s the heavier slides.
Cheers,
Andy
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
The pre Elkhart Bach trombones had gold brass outer tubes, which gives the depth of sound you're referring to. The equal length sleeves help "some" but no where near as much as the gold tubes
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Two Bach 45 slides, both alike in dignity, with the same color on the tubes (but a 15 year difference in manufacture… not going to assume chemical composition). The outer of the equal length tubes is ~290g+ compared to the ~260g+ of the new(er, it is still Mt.V). I prefer the heavier.
Similarly on the 50 slides, though there there is a distinct tube difference as the newer one is definitely yellow, but the old slide is over 300g.
(My favorite handslide with these horns is also still my M&W TIS slide the is also fairly heavy due to, well TIS). You may be right that tube material makes a bigger difference, but I have some strong results for the weight here.
Cheers,
Andy
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Similarly on the 50 slides, though there there is a distinct tube difference as the newer one is definitely yellow, but the old slide is over 300g.
(My favorite handslide with these horns is also still my M&W TIS slide the is also fairly heavy due to, well TIS). You may be right that tube material makes a bigger difference, but I have some strong results for the weight here.
Cheers,
Andy
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- sf105
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
alternatively, sell it to me and buy the horn you really want <span class="emoji" title=":wink:">😉</span>
- hornbuilder
- Posts: 1384
- Joined: May 02, 2018
Andy.
I wonder how the wall thickness compares with those 2 slides?
I wonder how the wall thickness compares with those 2 slides?
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="hornbuilder"]Andy.
I wonder how the wall thickness compares with those 2 slides?[/quote]
Ooh. Good question, I don’t think I’ve ever checked the OD of the outer handslide tubes. The outers will swap as well as any Bach 547 slide ever does (and matches any variety of 42 slides I’ve had). And my micrometers were sitting right there! When I get a moment, I’ll pull them back out of the cases and check, but every other diameter of tubes on the horns been consistent when I’ve checked (e.g. the tuning slide tubes seal perfect and the side that matches the 50B matches 50B slides across 70+ years of manufacture, ferrules machined to the same sizes, etc…).
Some more dimensions to add to my blueprint file when I get them,
Andy
I wonder how the wall thickness compares with those 2 slides?[/quote]
Ooh. Good question, I don’t think I’ve ever checked the OD of the outer handslide tubes. The outers will swap as well as any Bach 547 slide ever does (and matches any variety of 42 slides I’ve had). And my micrometers were sitting right there! When I get a moment, I’ll pull them back out of the cases and check, but every other diameter of tubes on the horns been consistent when I’ve checked (e.g. the tuning slide tubes seal perfect and the side that matches the 50B matches 50B slides across 70+ years of manufacture, ferrules machined to the same sizes, etc…).
Some more dimensions to add to my blueprint file when I get them,
Andy
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
The lacquer might make a difference in how the horn responds when you are playing, but it might not make any difference to the audience. Older Bachs usually sound quite nice the way they are. Removing the lacquer or re-lacquering the horn might make a different in the way the horn sounds or responds. If it were me, I’d leave it.
Changing the slide by removing the nickel sleeves or by replacing it with a different nickel slide will definitely change the sound and response.
If the “rust spots” are truly “red rot,” or dezincification of the brass, then that’s a problem. If they’re just places where the lacquer has worn and the bare brass has developed a patina, that’s not a problem unless you want it to look absolutely clean, shiny, and spotless. A quick way to tell the difference is to gently polish a spot. If it polishes up nicely, then it’s just patina. If the red doesn’t go away, then it could be red rot. Check with a tech.
Some people like their horns bright and shiny. Others prefer to have the lacquer removed. Others don’t really care either way—they choose their horns by the sound they can produce from the horn. In the end, it’s your horn. Do what you want.
Changing the slide by removing the nickel sleeves or by replacing it with a different nickel slide will definitely change the sound and response.
If the “rust spots” are truly “red rot,” or dezincification of the brass, then that’s a problem. If they’re just places where the lacquer has worn and the bare brass has developed a patina, that’s not a problem unless you want it to look absolutely clean, shiny, and spotless. A quick way to tell the difference is to gently polish a spot. If it polishes up nicely, then it’s just patina. If the red doesn’t go away, then it could be red rot. Check with a tech.
Some people like their horns bright and shiny. Others prefer to have the lacquer removed. Others don’t really care either way—they choose their horns by the sound they can produce from the horn. In the end, it’s your horn. Do what you want.
- dukesboneman
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
It doesn`t matter what era the horn is from, It`s YOUR Instrument.
If you want it re-lacquered - Do It. It`s your Horn
I had that done to a 1955 Conn 32H back in the `80`s. definitely made the horn a little lighter, but didn`t really effect it`s sound.
If you want to have the slide lightened (personally I think it`s a great idea) Do It , It`s your Horn
I`ve had the sleeves removed from one of my Bach 12`s. The slide is really fast and light now.
Enjoy your instrument the way you want it.
If you want it re-lacquered - Do It. It`s your Horn
I had that done to a 1955 Conn 32H back in the `80`s. definitely made the horn a little lighter, but didn`t really effect it`s sound.
If you want to have the slide lightened (personally I think it`s a great idea) Do It , It`s your Horn
I`ve had the sleeves removed from one of my Bach 12`s. The slide is really fast and light now.
Enjoy your instrument the way you want it.