Do Acidentals effect all notes in an octave?
- VincentM
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Nov 25, 2024
IF you had an accidental on one note, would it effect other notes in octave or the accidental note? for example, a
If you had a C3 with a flat, and the next beat you have a C4, would the accident carry though or you would you play a regular C4? ( In C major key)
If you had a C3 with a flat, and the next beat you have a C4, would the accident carry though or you would you play a regular C4? ( In C major key)
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
My answer is that technically it applies to other octaves, but practically the other octave should be marked, either way, just to be clear.
There's no sense in writing something that's ambiguous. But plenty of music is written by people with no sense.
There's no sense in writing something that's ambiguous. But plenty of music is written by people with no sense.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
Some composers, particularly of less tonality-centred music specify that accidentals do not apply to other octaves. I usually assume that it applies to all octaves in more traditional music, but it becomes less certain in more recent and dissonant music.
I agree with Doug - a courtesy accidental to make sure that people know the intent of the composer makes sense and saves time in rehearsals.
Jim Scott
I agree with Doug - a courtesy accidental to make sure that people know the intent of the composer makes sense and saves time in rehearsals.
Jim Scott
- UATrombone
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sep 15, 2024
It's BASIC rule of classic Music theory.
If you have same note in the same bar in any octave - you should play it with accidental (if there no other sign).
Next bar - without.
EDIT: same bar and SAME octave...
If you have same note in the same bar in any octave - you should play it with accidental (if there no other sign).
Next bar - without.
EDIT: same bar and SAME octave...
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
[quote="UATrombone"]It's BASIC rule of classic Music theory.
If you have same note in the same bar in any octave - you should play it with accidental (if there no other sign).
Next bar - without.[/quote]
That's the rule that I always have followed, until I encountered some exceptions - maybe the composer/copyist didn't "get the memo". I still generally assume this is the case. Personally, I like to see courtesy accidentals and if they aren't there, I often add them. Pencil lead is cheap!
I took a calligraphy course in school, and the teacher (who had copied for many of the major classical American composers of the early/mid. 20th century) taught us to add an accidental or two in the first bar of a key change, or when you were shifting back frequently (C natural for a bar, C sharp the next etc.). His feeling was that the goal of a copyist was to have a "perfect rehearsal", and you wanted the players to not have a question about which accidental applied at that moment. Rules or not, he tried to take a "what reads best" approach to how he notated things.
Jim Scott
If you have same note in the same bar in any octave - you should play it with accidental (if there no other sign).
Next bar - without.[/quote]
That's the rule that I always have followed, until I encountered some exceptions - maybe the composer/copyist didn't "get the memo". I still generally assume this is the case. Personally, I like to see courtesy accidentals and if they aren't there, I often add them. Pencil lead is cheap!
I took a calligraphy course in school, and the teacher (who had copied for many of the major classical American composers of the early/mid. 20th century) taught us to add an accidental or two in the first bar of a key change, or when you were shifting back frequently (C natural for a bar, C sharp the next etc.). His feeling was that the goal of a copyist was to have a "perfect rehearsal", and you wanted the players to not have a question about which accidental applied at that moment. Rules or not, he tried to take a "what reads best" approach to how he notated things.
Jim Scott
- Pezza
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Aug 24, 2021
What is annoying is when you have split parts, 1 part gets an accidental and 2 quavers in a run later the other part gets the same note but no accidental written.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]...
His feeling was that the goal of a copyist was to have a "perfect rehearsal", and you wanted the players to not have a question about which accidental applied at that moment. Rules or not, he tried to take a "what reads best" approach to how he notated things.
Jim Scott[/quote]
Wouldn't it be nice if everybody followed that rule.... including phrases matching lines on the page, and note spacing within each bar that makes sense, etc...
His feeling was that the goal of a copyist was to have a "perfect rehearsal", and you wanted the players to not have a question about which accidental applied at that moment. Rules or not, he tried to take a "what reads best" approach to how he notated things.
Jim Scott[/quote]
Wouldn't it be nice if everybody followed that rule.... including phrases matching lines on the page, and note spacing within each bar that makes sense, etc...
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="Pezza"]What is annoying is when you have split parts, 1 part gets an accidental and 2 quavers in a run later the other part gets the same note but no accidental written.[/quote]
Divisi parts are straight up the work of Satan. Especially in modern times, where you have no worry about making your own paper or running out of ink.
Divisi parts are straight up the work of Satan. Especially in modern times, where you have no worry about making your own paper or running out of ink.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]My answer is that technically it applies to other octaves, but practically the other octave should be marked, either way, just to be clear.
There's no sense in writing something that's ambiguous. But plenty of music is written by people with no sense.[/quote]
/thread.
I always go out of my way to write accidentals in every octave, not write divisi parts, cancel out the accidental in the next measure, etc. I've been using Dorico recently and it does most of that automatically for you which has been really nice.
There's no sense in writing something that's ambiguous. But plenty of music is written by people with no sense.[/quote]
/thread.
I always go out of my way to write accidentals in every octave, not write divisi parts, cancel out the accidental in the next measure, etc. I've been using Dorico recently and it does most of that automatically for you which has been really nice.
- timothy42b
- Posts: 1812
- Joined: Mar 27, 2018
[quote="UATrombone"]It's BASIC rule of classic Music theory.
If you have same note in the same bar in any octave - you should play it with accidental (if there no other sign).
Next bar - without.[/quote]
And yet I was taught differently - accidentals only apply to one octave. So there's clearly room for confusion, and I would certainly mark how I wanted it played if I were writing something.
I found this:
If you have same note in the same bar in any octave - you should play it with accidental (if there no other sign).
Next bar - without.[/quote]
And yet I was taught differently - accidentals only apply to one octave. So there's clearly room for confusion, and I would certainly mark how I wanted it played if I were writing something.
I found this:
The book "Behind Bars: The Definitive Guide to Music Notation", by Elaine Gould (Published Faber Music, 2011) states:
An accidental holds good for the duration of a bar. It applies only to the pitch at which it is written: each additional octave requires a further accidental. (p.78.)
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Contrarian here.
I'm generally not a fan of "courtesy" accidentals that merely remind you of the key signature. I know what key I'm in, I don't need to be reminded. As I age and my eyesight diminishes, those courtesy accidentals sometimes look like real modifications of the note, especially in smaller or poorly spaced charts.
I'd rather not see the "courtesy" accidental, unless it's for a known ambiguity like the octave accidental.
I'm generally not a fan of "courtesy" accidentals that merely remind you of the key signature. I know what key I'm in, I don't need to be reminded. As I age and my eyesight diminishes, those courtesy accidentals sometimes look like real modifications of the note, especially in smaller or poorly spaced charts.
I'd rather not see the "courtesy" accidental, unless it's for a known ambiguity like the octave accidental.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
When I mark a courtesy accidental for myself in a part, I often put it in parenthesis as a signal that the accidental in question is returning to the key signature. That works for me - maybe not for others.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
With all due respect to Vincent, and solely because I'm a compulsive grammar nazi, as to the title of this thread...
*affects
*affects
- UATrombone
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sep 15, 2024
[quote="timothy42b"]
And yet I was taught differently - accidentals only apply to one octave. So there's clearly room for confusion, and I would certainly mark how I wanted it played if I were writing something.
[/quote]
You're right. I was wrong (my last Theory lesson was about 40 years ago)...
Need to refresh my memory. :idea:
And yet I was taught differently - accidentals only apply to one octave. So there's clearly room for confusion, and I would certainly mark how I wanted it played if I were writing something.
[/quote]
You're right. I was wrong (my last Theory lesson was about 40 years ago)...
Need to refresh my memory. :idea:
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="tbdana"]With all due respect to Vincent, and solely because I'm a compulsive grammar nazi, as to the title of this thread...
*affects[/quote]
A semantic nazi would have a completely different problem with the title.
*all octaves of a note
or even
*all octaves of a pitch class
*affects[/quote]
A semantic nazi would have a completely different problem with the title.
*all octaves of a note
or even
*all octaves of a pitch class
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]With all due respect to Vincent, and solely because I'm a compulsive grammar nazi, as to the title of this thread...
*affects[/quote]
A spelling Nazi would also have a field day with the title.
[Quickly runs to the door, covering head]
*affects[/quote]
A spelling Nazi would also have a field day with the title.
[Quickly runs to the door, covering head]
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="259573" time="1732640125" user_id="16498">
With all due respect to Vincent, and solely because I'm a compulsive grammar nazi, as to the title of this thread...
*affects[/quote]
A semantic nazi would have a completely different problem with the title.
*all octaves of a note
or even
*all octaves of a pitch class
</QUOTE>
Not to mention a spelling "nazi" (Acidentals).
[High schooler typing quickly with thumbs?]
Let's give VincentM a break here. He posed a reasonable query. Welcome to TromboneChat, Vincent.
With all due respect to Vincent, and solely because I'm a compulsive grammar nazi, as to the title of this thread...
*affects[/quote]
A semantic nazi would have a completely different problem with the title.
*all octaves of a note
or even
*all octaves of a pitch class
</QUOTE>
Not to mention a spelling "nazi" (Acidentals).
[High schooler typing quickly with thumbs?]
Let's give VincentM a break here. He posed a reasonable query. Welcome to TromboneChat, Vincent.
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
[quote="Posaunus"]Let's give VincentM a break here. He posed a reasonable query. Welcome to TromboneChat, Vincent.[/quote]
It's certainly a good question. One I have to re-ask every 10 years or so. It doesn't come up often enough to let me remember the answer!
It's certainly a good question. One I have to re-ask every 10 years or so. It doesn't come up often enough to let me remember the answer!
- TonyNeal
- Posts: 29
- Joined: May 11, 2018
I think there's a cultural difference here.
On this European side of the pond, I was taught that the accidental only applies to the original octave and needs to be reapplied to different octaves.
When I see music from North America that follows a different rule, I reach for my pencil.
On this European side of the pond, I was taught that the accidental only applies to the original octave and needs to be reapplied to different octaves.
When I see music from North America that follows a different rule, I reach for my pencil.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
There's really only one rule: make it clear so there's no ambiguity.
- TomWest
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Apr 04, 2023
[quote="tbdana"]Contrarian here.
I'm generally not a fan of "courtesy" accidentals that merely remind you of the key signature. I know what key I'm in, I don't need to be reminded. As I age and my eyesight diminishes, those courtesy accidentals sometimes look like real modifications of the note, especially in smaller or poorly spaced charts.
I'd rather not see the "courtesy" accidental, unless it's for a known ambiguity like the octave accidental.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI> +1
I'm generally not a fan of "courtesy" accidentals that merely remind you of the key signature. I know what key I'm in, I don't need to be reminded. As I age and my eyesight diminishes, those courtesy accidentals sometimes look like real modifications of the note, especially in smaller or poorly spaced charts.
I'd rather not see the "courtesy" accidental, unless it's for a known ambiguity like the octave accidental.[/quote]
<EMOJI seq="1f44d" tseq="1f44d">👍</EMOJI> +1
- afugate
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]When I mark a courtesy accidental for myself in a part, I often put it in parenthesis as a signal that the accidental in question is returning to the key signature. That works for me - maybe not for others.
Jim Scott[/quote]
I mark reminder accidentals in red on my ipad, Same for dynamic reminders, etc.
I use black for those occasions where the scanned document needs to be cleaned up or where a mark needs to be "permanent".
--Andy in OKC
Jim Scott[/quote]
I mark reminder accidentals in red on my ipad, Same for dynamic reminders, etc.
I use black for those occasions where the scanned document needs to be cleaned up or where a mark needs to be "permanent".
--Andy in OKC
- boneapart
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Aug 13, 2018
In American English, the period is always inside the end quote.
And while we're at it, lets--pardon me--let's all join the society for the protection of the apostrophe:
https://www.apostrophe.org.uk/post/may-2024-newsletter
And while we're at it, lets--pardon me--let's all join the society for the protection of the apostrophe:
https://www.apostrophe.org.uk/post/may-2024-newsletter
- Jimprindle
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Apr 16, 2018
[quote="CalgaryTbone"]When I mark a courtesy accidental for myself in a part, I often put it in parenthesis as a signal that the accidental in question is returning to the key signature. That works for me - maybe not for others.
Jim Scott[/quote]
Ditto that. When I see parentheses it tells me that the accidental is in the key signature. No parenthesis = change from key (for that measure). To the OP, change of octave with the accidental should be reminder not a courtesy (no parenthesis) to be unambiguous.
Jim Scott[/quote]
Ditto that. When I see parentheses it tells me that the accidental is in the key signature. No parenthesis = change from key (for that measure). To the OP, change of octave with the accidental should be reminder not a courtesy (no parenthesis) to be unambiguous.
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
I admit I have never been 100% sure about this question. Only 90%. :) Because composers/writers/typists seem to some times have their own way to write things. It should be easy to write an accidental too much or more to avoid misunderstanding?
Leif
Leif
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I just assume the accidental only applies to the octave in which it is noted, unless I discover otherwise playing it. :)
- AtomicClock
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Oct 19, 2023
A related question (which I also can never remember the answer) is what happens with divisi parts, or 1st and 2nd on the same staff. Do accidentals apply to both lines, or just the one they first appear in?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="AtomicClock"]A related question (which I also can never remember the answer) is what happens with divisi parts, or 1st and 2nd on the same staff. Do accidentals apply to both lines, or just the one they first appear in?[/quote]
Just the line they appear in, generally speaking.
Just the line they appear in, generally speaking.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
I was warming-up the other day, and was finishing off with the Cichowicz - Fundamental Studies (trombone version edited by various top players). There are lots of short tunes, designed to be "flow studies" and borrowed from previous etudes like Bordogni, Arban, Concone, etc. I suddenly realized that the one I was playing had an example of the accidental only applying to one octave within the bar. There was an A flat in the key signature that occurred in a pattern a few times, but one time, the beginning of the bar had an A natural accidental in the lower octave as a chromatic lower neighbor. No accidental at the end of the bar, but obviously back to A flat. It could be an editing issue, but I realized that I had played it many times correctly without noticing the discrepancy. I wonder if it's notated the same in the original etude that it's taken from.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
- spencercarran
- Posts: 689
- Joined: Oct 17, 2020
I don't trust typesetters to be consistent enough - unless the next note is explicitly marked, I'll want to check the score and see where it fits with the other parts.