Contemporary jazz players
- wesleyrubim
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Aug 06, 2022
Besides Nils Wogran, Robinson Khoury, Elliot Mason, who are your favorite modern players? Any album recommendation?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Bob McChesney
Andy Martin
Maybe Marshall Gilkes just because I like his chops.
Oh, and I really like Ido Meshulam's jazz, very sweet.
Andy Martin
Maybe Marshall Gilkes just because I like his chops.
Oh, and I really like Ido Meshulam's jazz, very sweet.
- whyking
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Aug 09, 2022
I think Ido Meshulam’s playing is okay, but he doesn’t use enough slide vibrato.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I note that Alex Iles is 63, Andy Martin is 64, and John Fedchock is 67.
Even Wycliffe is 57. Ches is 55.
If by “contemporary” you mean “still alive”…
Even Wycliffe is 57. Ches is 55.
If by “contemporary” you mean “still alive”…
- MStarke
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Jan 01, 2019
What do you mean by contemporary? I honestly don't know too much about different jazz styles, but would put Nils Wogram in a totally different category than Andy Martin or Bob McChesney. Andy and Bob are to my ears not too "contemporary" - probably why I normally prefer them to Nils (who is of course absolutely great, but not my thing).
- AndrewMeronek
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: Mar 30, 2018
Here a little promo for Steve Wiest and his album Phröntrange:
<YOUTUBE id="2v2z9VtNlho">[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v2z9VtNlho</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="2v2z9VtNlho">
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi folks.
I really enjoy these musicians :
Michael Dease
Steve Davis
Ido Meshulam
Jon Hatamiya
Regards
Giancarlo
I really enjoy these musicians :
Michael Dease
Steve Davis
Ido Meshulam
Jon Hatamiya
Regards
Giancarlo
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
One of the best musicians out there today who happens to play trombone is Rita Payes.
I like listening to music where I stop hearing how the music is being made and just hear the song.
I like listening to music where I stop hearing how the music is being made and just hear the song.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
"Contemporary"....you. mean 'post-bop', 'avant-garde', 'free'....?
Or players that are building/evolving on past jazz traditions and have unique, personal styles?
If so, we must add Ed Neumeister, Jim Pugh, John Mosca, Joe Fiedler, Alan Farber, .....and then a whole bunch of NYC players to the list, many of whom are totally unknown to the public and range between 20- 80 years old. There are some wonderful jazz players on the scene that are really creating new music built upon the jazz traditions.
I love Mark Nightingale from London. He's awesome and inventive and really composes as he plays.
Ian McDougall was totally 'contemporary' when he was playing and recording. Very unique style built upon the influences of Urbie Green and Jack Teagarden. (he's still alive but pretty much retired now due to some health problems)
Too bad Albert Manglesdorf is dead (he'd be 96 this year). He'd probably still be coming up with new ideas built on jazz traditions.
(Controversial statement time:) a lot of trombone soloists today get pretty boring after a few bars because we know that whatever they play will sound like something they've played a thousand times. Some awesome displays of trombone techniques, but not a lot of music that holds much interest to most non-trombone music lovers.
Or players that are building/evolving on past jazz traditions and have unique, personal styles?
If so, we must add Ed Neumeister, Jim Pugh, John Mosca, Joe Fiedler, Alan Farber, .....and then a whole bunch of NYC players to the list, many of whom are totally unknown to the public and range between 20- 80 years old. There are some wonderful jazz players on the scene that are really creating new music built upon the jazz traditions.
I love Mark Nightingale from London. He's awesome and inventive and really composes as he plays.
Ian McDougall was totally 'contemporary' when he was playing and recording. Very unique style built upon the influences of Urbie Green and Jack Teagarden. (he's still alive but pretty much retired now due to some health problems)
Too bad Albert Manglesdorf is dead (he'd be 96 this year). He'd probably still be coming up with new ideas built on jazz traditions.
(Controversial statement time:) a lot of trombone soloists today get pretty boring after a few bars because we know that whatever they play will sound like something they've played a thousand times. Some awesome displays of trombone techniques, but not a lot of music that holds much interest to most non-trombone music lovers.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="GGJazz"]
Jon Hatamiya
[/quote]
Interesting. What is it about Jon that you particularly like? I only played with him once. It was a gig with no rehearsal only four months after I started playing again, so it was a very small sample at a time I was concentrating on my own comeback. Otherwise, I don't know him. In those few hours we played together, I found him to be a capable player, but his style was not my cup of tea. Of course, one gig is not enough to make any judgments, but I'm curious what people like about him.
Jon Hatamiya
[/quote]
Interesting. What is it about Jon that you particularly like? I only played with him once. It was a gig with no rehearsal only four months after I started playing again, so it was a very small sample at a time I was concentrating on my own comeback. Otherwise, I don't know him. In those few hours we played together, I found him to be a capable player, but his style was not my cup of tea. Of course, one gig is not enough to make any judgments, but I'm curious what people like about him.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]I note that Alex Iles is 63, Andy Martin is 64, and John Fedchock is 67.
Even Wycliffe is 57. Ches is 55.
If by “contemporary” you mean “still alive”…[/quote]
Still alive and performing (that's "contemporary" to me), and still making listenable jazz (solo and ensemble) music.
No they're not avant-garde or free jazz or fusion. But their playing is music to my aging ears. :idk:
I haven't heard Doug Elliott live, but (from his recordings) I'd bet I'd also find his playing engaging.
None of these would chase my wife out of the room! ;)
Even Wycliffe is 57. Ches is 55.
If by “contemporary” you mean “still alive”…[/quote]
Still alive and performing (that's "contemporary" to me), and still making listenable jazz (solo and ensemble) music.
No they're not avant-garde or free jazz or fusion. But their playing is music to my aging ears. :idk:
I haven't heard Doug Elliott live, but (from his recordings) I'd bet I'd also find his playing engaging.
None of these would chase my wife out of the room! ;)
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Seeing some names here I don't know... gotta check them out.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="whyking"]I think Ido Meshulam’s playing is okay, but he doesn’t use enough slide vibrato.[/quote]
bro i got bad news for you about J.J. Johnson!
i am a contemporary trombone category skeptic - most of these people are either old or not so contemporary stylistically or both. But I also like checking out the younger generation so here's my $.02
Kalia Vanderver
Kalun Leung
Zekkereya El-magharbel
Natalie Cressman
Daniel Bruno
Chris Bates
Andy Clausen
Corey Wilcox
pretty sure they are all in their 20s-30s.
if you want some people in their 40s, we can talk about them too!
bro i got bad news for you about J.J. Johnson!
i am a contemporary trombone category skeptic - most of these people are either old or not so contemporary stylistically or both. But I also like checking out the younger generation so here's my $.02
Kalia Vanderver
Kalun Leung
Zekkereya El-magharbel
Natalie Cressman
Daniel Bruno
Chris Bates
Andy Clausen
Corey Wilcox
pretty sure they are all in their 20s-30s.
if you want some people in their 40s, we can talk about them too!
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="GGJazz" post_id="260497" time="1733490304" user_id="15528">
Jon Hatamiya
[/quote]
Interesting. What is it about Jon that you particularly like? I only played with him once. It was a gig with no rehearsal only four months after I started playing again, so it was a very small sample at a time I was concentrating on my own comeback. Otherwise, I don't know him. In those few hours we played together, I found him to be a capable player, but his style was not my cup of tea. Of course, one gig is not enough to make any judgments, but I'm curious what people like about him.
</QUOTE>
Jon is the bomb! Lyrical, harmonically sophisticated, challenging interesting compositions, all over the horn, avoiding the obvious. He teaches at USC i believe. I hired him to play in my trombone gospel band for a gig at sfjazz a few years back.
Jon Hatamiya
[/quote]
Interesting. What is it about Jon that you particularly like? I only played with him once. It was a gig with no rehearsal only four months after I started playing again, so it was a very small sample at a time I was concentrating on my own comeback. Otherwise, I don't know him. In those few hours we played together, I found him to be a capable player, but his style was not my cup of tea. Of course, one gig is not enough to make any judgments, but I'm curious what people like about him.
</QUOTE>
Jon is the bomb! Lyrical, harmonically sophisticated, challenging interesting compositions, all over the horn, avoiding the obvious. He teaches at USC i believe. I hired him to play in my trombone gospel band for a gig at sfjazz a few years back.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
If the base names are Wogram and Mason, I wouldn't really reply with Steve Davis, Michael Dease, Andy Martin etc... Totally different style of music and playing for most of the time. But there are for sure some recordings where those guys will play some more contemporary stuff as well.
I would probably add a list like that, also including some people not alive anymore:
Albert Mangelsdorff
Conrad 'Conny' Bauer
Marshall Gilkes
Ed Neumeister
Hal Crook(!!!)
Adrian Mears
Steve Turre
Robin Eubanks
Samuel Blaser
Klaus Heidenreich
Glenn Ferris
Janning Trumann
Ilja Reinjoud
Bob Brookmeyer
Shannon Barnett
Andy Hunter
Conrad Herwig
And many more...
Edit: This is a bit more from a European perspective because I haven't really checked out the young American jazz trombone scene.
I would probably add a list like that, also including some people not alive anymore:
Albert Mangelsdorff
Conrad 'Conny' Bauer
Marshall Gilkes
Ed Neumeister
Hal Crook(!!!)
Adrian Mears
Steve Turre
Robin Eubanks
Samuel Blaser
Klaus Heidenreich
Glenn Ferris
Janning Trumann
Ilja Reinjoud
Bob Brookmeyer
Shannon Barnett
Andy Hunter
Conrad Herwig
And many more...
Edit: This is a bit more from a European perspective because I haven't really checked out the young American jazz trombone scene.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Hall Crook has been contemporary his whole life.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi.
@ tbdana : Iin particolar , I like Jon' way about how to build the phrases , his harmonic conception , and his balance in the tension/ release approach .
To me , he is a very good jazz player .
Also , I totally agree with Doug Elliott about Hal Crook !
Regards
Giancarlo
@ tbdana : Iin particolar , I like Jon' way about how to build the phrases , his harmonic conception , and his balance in the tension/ release approach .
To me , he is a very good jazz player .
Also , I totally agree with Doug Elliott about Hal Crook !
Regards
Giancarlo
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="GGJazz"]Hi.
@ tbdana : Iin particolar , I like Jon' way about how to build the phrases , his harmonic conception , and his balance in the tension/ release approach .
To me , he is a very good jazz player .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
Thanks. Like I said, I've only heard him once, on a gig we did together. Grabbed the first thing off YouTube that I found, is this representative of him?
<YOUTUBE id="3hwnMAjTyZ0" t="213">https://youtu.be/3hwnMAjTyZ0?si=Cv7wDPAXkPFLVaB5&t=213</YOUTUBE>
@ tbdana : Iin particolar , I like Jon' way about how to build the phrases , his harmonic conception , and his balance in the tension/ release approach .
To me , he is a very good jazz player .
Regards
Giancarlo[/quote]
Thanks. Like I said, I've only heard him once, on a gig we did together. Grabbed the first thing off YouTube that I found, is this representative of him?
<YOUTUBE id="3hwnMAjTyZ0" t="213">https://youtu.be/3hwnMAjTyZ0?si=Cv7wDPAXkPFLVaB5&t=213</YOUTUBE>
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
I have a question about younger/contemporary jazz trombonists. Since I'm old, and since I took decades off without even listening to music, I haven't followed the trends. Can someone explain what they think are the traits of younger, more contemporary jazz players? In my extremely limited exposure, I've noticed they tend to play louder and more aggressively than my contemporaries, and aren't laser focused on clean technique. I have no idea if that's a general trend or reflects only my limited exposure. What do you consider the character of modern players, as opposed to, say, my generation? And who were their models, who was influential to them growing up?
My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.
I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary. :)
My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.
I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary. :)
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hello again.
Hi Dana.
I think that the follow can be more representative about Jon' playing :
Straight no Chaser (trombone solo)
<YOUTUBE id="8N8aCjSDTl8">https://youtu.be/8N8aCjSDTl8?si=5olWUBPL9kJuqO6A</YOUTUBE>
Ragards again
Giancarlo
Hi Dana.
I think that the follow can be more representative about Jon' playing :
Straight no Chaser (trombone solo)
<YOUTUBE id="8N8aCjSDTl8">https://youtu.be/8N8aCjSDTl8?si=5olWUBPL9kJuqO6A</YOUTUBE>
Ragards again
Giancarlo
- nelson31
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Jul 05, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]I have a question about younger/contemporary jazz trombonists. Since I'm old, and since I took decades off without even listening to music, I haven't followed the trends. Can someone explain what they think are the traits of younger, more contemporary jazz players? In my extremely limited exposure, I've noticed they tend to play louder and more aggressively than my contemporaries, and aren't laser focused on clean technique. I have no idea if that's a general trend or reflects only my limited exposure. What do you consider the character of modern players, as opposed to, say, my generation? And who were their models, who was influential to them growing up?
My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.
I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary. :)[/quote]
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.
My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.
I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary. :)[/quote]
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="nelson31"]I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
I find this to be a very insulting post. Never mind. Sorry I asked. I think I got all the information I need from this post. You got any recordings of yourself to post, Nelson? Let's hear your no babysitting playing.
I find this to be a very insulting post. Never mind. Sorry I asked. I think I got all the information I need from this post. You got any recordings of yourself to post, Nelson? Let's hear your no babysitting playing.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
This is a great question.
would much rather discuss the fine points of style and then umpteenth mouthpiece post.
As I see it, there were always a lot of different ways to play the trombone. Certainly in early jazz there was a lot of aggressive playing. In the swing era you had styles like Tricky Sam, Trummy Young, aggressive in contrast to Dorsey or Lawrence Brown; later you had Al Grey, Butter Jackson, Booty Wood, Roswell, Grachan Moncur, Barry Rogers, and into the 70s with Gary Valente, Ray Anderson, George Lewis, and on. A lot of very fine technique in all these players but a different concept than Urbie Green or Watrous.
I think if you are looking for finesse in the younger generation you will be happy with Andy Hunter, Tim Albright, Natalie Cressman, Zekerreyah or Andy Clausen, all exquisite technicians in a variety of styles.
I recommend Jon's album More than Anything
<BANDCAMP album_id="2019284933"><LINK_TEXT text="https://jonhatamiya.bandcamp.com/album/ ... n-anything">https://jonhatamiya.bandcamp.com/album/more-than-anything</LINK_TEXT></BANDCAMP>
anyway speaking of contemporary anybody hear the new (old) Joe Henderson/McCoy Tyner live album? that's the kind of contemporary jazz I aspire to play!
would much rather discuss the fine points of style and then umpteenth mouthpiece post.
As I see it, there were always a lot of different ways to play the trombone. Certainly in early jazz there was a lot of aggressive playing. In the swing era you had styles like Tricky Sam, Trummy Young, aggressive in contrast to Dorsey or Lawrence Brown; later you had Al Grey, Butter Jackson, Booty Wood, Roswell, Grachan Moncur, Barry Rogers, and into the 70s with Gary Valente, Ray Anderson, George Lewis, and on. A lot of very fine technique in all these players but a different concept than Urbie Green or Watrous.
I think if you are looking for finesse in the younger generation you will be happy with Andy Hunter, Tim Albright, Natalie Cressman, Zekerreyah or Andy Clausen, all exquisite technicians in a variety of styles.
I recommend Jon's album More than Anything
<BANDCAMP album_id="2019284933"><LINK_TEXT text="https://jonhatamiya.bandcamp.com/album/ ... n-anything">https://jonhatamiya.bandcamp.com/album/more-than-anything</LINK_TEXT></BANDCAMP>
anyway speaking of contemporary anybody hear the new (old) Joe Henderson/McCoy Tyner live album? that's the kind of contemporary jazz I aspire to play!
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
just as an aside, it is fascinating to watch videos of people playing, but if i want to check them out i try and find a studio recording or at least an official release rather than youtube. Sometimes youtube is not flattering and often not even put up with permission of the musician. Especially because jazz trombone doesn't record well with room mics or iphones!
- nelson31
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Jul 05, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="nelson31" post_id="260559" time="1733514448" user_id="3488">
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
I find this to be a very insulting post. Never mind. Sorry I asked. I think I got all the information I need from this post. You got any recordings of yourself to post, Nelson? Let's hear your no babysitting playing.
</QUOTE>
Sorry, but I charge for lessons.
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
I find this to be a very insulting post. Never mind. Sorry I asked. I think I got all the information I need from this post. You got any recordings of yourself to post, Nelson? Let's hear your no babysitting playing.
</QUOTE>
Sorry, but I charge for lessons.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
[quote="nelson31"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="260557" time="1733513470" user_id="16498">[/quote]
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.
</QUOTE>
“Bring it”?
Loud, out of tune, with bad time?
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.
</QUOTE>
“Bring it”?
Loud, out of tune, with bad time?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="nelson31"]I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
One of the things I love about this forum is the absence of trolls and posts like those above from Nelson31. For some reason this person has come out of nowhere to troll me. I have no idea who this guy is. I doubt he can play. He certainly ran away quickly when I asked.
The TOS say...
So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?
Sorry, but I charge for lessons.
One of the things I love about this forum is the absence of trolls and posts like those above from Nelson31. For some reason this person has come out of nowhere to troll me. I have no idea who this guy is. I doubt he can play. He certainly ran away quickly when I asked.
The TOS say...
Be respectful – while there may be disagreements, we expect civility in all correspondences. Members who show a pattern of obnoxious, anti-social, or disrespectful behavior may be banned on a temporary or permanent basis, determined by the site administrators. Such behaviors include, but are not limited to, personal attacks, demeaning the character of another individual, public or non-public, or engaging in speech that is knowingly false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, harassing, sexually oriented, threatening, or otherwise a violation of law.
So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?
- nelson31
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Jul 05, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="nelson31" post_id="260563" time="1733515218" user_id="3488">
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
One of the things I love about this forum is the absence of trolls and posts like those above from Nelson31. For some reason this person has come out of nowhere to troll me. I have no idea who this guy is. I doubt he can play. He certainly ran away quickly when I asked.
The TOS say...
So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?
</QUOTE>
If you can’t see the irony of you taking offense after the silly posts you’ve made recently, as well as the ignorant condescension of your posts regarding Jon Hatamiya, then I can’t help you.
I’ll happily play a solo on the bandstand when given the opportunity, however, I don’t have anything to prove as I’m not an improviser like anybody listed above. Hopefully we end up on the bandstand together some time, I promise to bring it!
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
Sorry, but I charge for lessons.
One of the things I love about this forum is the absence of trolls and posts like those above from Nelson31. For some reason this person has come out of nowhere to troll me. I have no idea who this guy is. I doubt he can play. He certainly ran away quickly when I asked.
The TOS say...
Be respectful – while there may be disagreements, we expect civility in all correspondences. Members who show a pattern of obnoxious, anti-social, or disrespectful behavior may be banned on a temporary or permanent basis, determined by the site administrators. Such behaviors include, but are not limited to, personal attacks, demeaning the character of another individual, public or non-public, or engaging in speech that is knowingly false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, harassing, sexually oriented, threatening, or otherwise a violation of law.
So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?
</QUOTE>
If you can’t see the irony of you taking offense after the silly posts you’ve made recently, as well as the ignorant condescension of your posts regarding Jon Hatamiya, then I can’t help you.
I’ll happily play a solo on the bandstand when given the opportunity, however, I don’t have anything to prove as I’m not an improviser like anybody listed above. Hopefully we end up on the bandstand together some time, I promise to bring it!
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]<QUOTE author="nelson31" post_id="260559" time="1733514448" user_id="3488">
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
“Bring it”?
Loud, out of tune, with bad time?
</QUOTE>
Well, there's that (on occasion). :horror: Also (from time to time) not respecting the melody or style of the tune, or the way your colleagues play so you can make a sensible whole out of (sometimes) fragmented, lengthy, or disparate solos.
Perhaps we need an updated definition of what constitutes "jazz?" :idk:
I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.[/quote]
“Bring it”?
Loud, out of tune, with bad time?
</QUOTE>
Well, there's that (on occasion). :horror: Also (from time to time) not respecting the melody or style of the tune, or the way your colleagues play so you can make a sensible whole out of (sometimes) fragmented, lengthy, or disparate solos.
Perhaps we need an updated definition of what constitutes "jazz?" :idk:
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]
So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?[/quote]
This is just my take, please don't read into it any further than it being an observation of an isolated event: You may have initially misinterpreted it as an attack on you or the way you or your generation got into jazz. There is nothing inherently wrong with saying that newer jazz musicians don't need to be brought up, groomed, or "babysat" by older influences. If Nelson's point is that the newer generation is going their own way and rejecting the need to have an influence or mentor, there is nothing wrong with that. It's an opinion.
Your initial reaction seemed to me to be too much, calling it insulting when he was not insulting you or talking about you at all in his post. It didn't seem to be insulting anyone directly. But him responding with the charging for lessons comment certainly did not help.
So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?[/quote]
This is just my take, please don't read into it any further than it being an observation of an isolated event: You may have initially misinterpreted it as an attack on you or the way you or your generation got into jazz. There is nothing inherently wrong with saying that newer jazz musicians don't need to be brought up, groomed, or "babysat" by older influences. If Nelson's point is that the newer generation is going their own way and rejecting the need to have an influence or mentor, there is nothing wrong with that. It's an opinion.
Your initial reaction seemed to me to be too much, calling it insulting when he was not insulting you or talking about you at all in his post. It didn't seem to be insulting anyone directly. But him responding with the charging for lessons comment certainly did not help.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
To Harry:
Okay, if you say so. "Babysit" and "charge for lessons" certainly sounded like targeted insults and not at all how you heard it, but maybe I did misinterpret. I'll consider that I did. Benefit of the doubt, and all.
To Nelson:
I didn't condescend to Jon. All I said was I've only played with him once and found him to be a capable player, but that his jazz style wasn't my cup of tea, though I had only heard him one time. I was asking about him because a number of people here have cited him as a good jazz example and I wanted to understand. I searched his name on YouTube and posted the first thing that came up, asking if it was representative of him. Sorry to repeat what I said above, but it seems necessary. I got a couple good responses that I appreciated. Not yours, but two good ones.
Ignorant? Yeah, I don't know Jon, that's why I asked. Condescending? Not on your life. I try to be supportive of everyone whether they're my cup of tea or not. We're all giving ourselves to this wonderful instrument, and thank goodness we're not all the same. Viva la difference.
I'm sure many of my posts are "silly" in some fashion, as I write whatever I'm thinking about at the moment, but they are all in good faith. Not so with "Babysitter" and "I charge for lessons" and "ignorant." Harry says I misinterpreted your intent? Okay, good enough.
I hope we do get to play together someday, and I guess my frustrated rant stuck with you, which is fine because if we do get to work together I'd love to hear you "bring it."
Okay, if you say so. "Babysit" and "charge for lessons" certainly sounded like targeted insults and not at all how you heard it, but maybe I did misinterpret. I'll consider that I did. Benefit of the doubt, and all.
To Nelson:
I didn't condescend to Jon. All I said was I've only played with him once and found him to be a capable player, but that his jazz style wasn't my cup of tea, though I had only heard him one time. I was asking about him because a number of people here have cited him as a good jazz example and I wanted to understand. I searched his name on YouTube and posted the first thing that came up, asking if it was representative of him. Sorry to repeat what I said above, but it seems necessary. I got a couple good responses that I appreciated. Not yours, but two good ones.
Ignorant? Yeah, I don't know Jon, that's why I asked. Condescending? Not on your life. I try to be supportive of everyone whether they're my cup of tea or not. We're all giving ourselves to this wonderful instrument, and thank goodness we're not all the same. Viva la difference.
I'm sure many of my posts are "silly" in some fashion, as I write whatever I'm thinking about at the moment, but they are all in good faith. Not so with "Babysitter" and "I charge for lessons" and "ignorant." Harry says I misinterpreted your intent? Okay, good enough.
I hope we do get to play together someday, and I guess my frustrated rant stuck with you, which is fine because if we do get to work together I'd love to hear you "bring it."
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
Yeah, I agree with Harrison's interpretation. I'm not going to remove this b/c I think there was a bit of misunderstanding.... feel free to edit your alls posts given that... but yes please, Dana asked a very reasonable question.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]Hall Crook has been contemporary his whole life.[/quote]
Hal has put many incredible recordings on his youtube channel including what i consider his magnum opus "Only Human".
He's not a household name but he is really quite influential, not just in the trombone scene. In addition to proteges like Eliot Mason he taught Branford Marsalis, Mark Turner, Esperanza Spalding, and many others.
Hal has put many incredible recordings on his youtube channel including what i consider his magnum opus "Only Human".
He's not a household name but he is really quite influential, not just in the trombone scene. In addition to proteges like Eliot Mason he taught Branford Marsalis, Mark Turner, Esperanza Spalding, and many others.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="jacobgarchik"]just as an aside, it is fascinating to watch videos of people playing, but if i want to check them out i try and find a studio recording or at least an official release rather than youtube. Sometimes youtube is not flattering and often not even put up with permission of the musician. Especially because jazz trombone doesn't record well with room mics or iphones![/quote]
This! Very important thing to keep in mind. Just speaking of my case but I find some of my best playing (at least in my own opinion) to be on some YouTube stuff that is either not linked to my name (studio recordings) or that isn't by far in the top results. My own debut release is still sitting on the shelf and waiting for a release in the upcoming year too. So there's nothing to find there atm too. And I'm pretty sure this is the case for many young players in the scene out there. Releasing an album is quite expensive if you want to work on earning some prestige with it and not just do a selfmade release. The latter is a fair option too tho of course.
This! Very important thing to keep in mind. Just speaking of my case but I find some of my best playing (at least in my own opinion) to be on some YouTube stuff that is either not linked to my name (studio recordings) or that isn't by far in the top results. My own debut release is still sitting on the shelf and waiting for a release in the upcoming year too. So there's nothing to find there atm too. And I'm pretty sure this is the case for many young players in the scene out there. Releasing an album is quite expensive if you want to work on earning some prestige with it and not just do a selfmade release. The latter is a fair option too tho of course.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]I have a question about younger/contemporary jazz trombonists. Since I'm old, and since I took decades off without even listening to music, I haven't followed the trends. Can someone explain what they think are the traits of younger, more contemporary jazz players? In my extremely limited exposure, I've noticed they tend to play louder and more aggressively than my contemporaries, and aren't laser focused on clean technique. I have no idea if that's a general trend or reflects only my limited exposure. What do you consider the character of modern players, as opposed to, say, my generation? And who were their models, who was influential to them growing up?
My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.
I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary. :)[/quote]
Totally valid question! And from my experience there is no common sense reply to that. From my experience (and take this with a grain of salt as I'm still fairly young too) it really depends on the individual player. I have colleagues in the same age (around their 30s) who listened to JJ Johnson only, some listened to Carl Fontana only. I've always been very open-minded in listening and always had different phases/loopholes where I really did a deep dive into the work of one particular artist for months or years. That started with Nils Wogram, developed into Carl Fontana then changed to JJ, then to Albert Mangelsdorff then to Frank Rosolino then to Slide Hampton then to Hal Crook and so on and so on....
My students at the university of arts in Hanover tend to be more in contact with music that is made nowadays. I feel like many are huge Marshall Gilkes fans. Some really dig Michael Dease or Andy Martin. Some enjoy the players of WDR Bigband. I always try to guide them to listen to the players that influenced those guys to get to the source and roots of the music/style. I personally find it important to know about the roots and where stuff comes from that players nowadays play or where they habd built their foundation on to develop something new.
And I've also seen a lot of influences (also with myself) from non-trombone players which is nice too because it leads away from the horn-specific stuff that is easy and nice to play (eg. like some of the Fontana stuff) and creates a different sound.
Hope that can be a bit of help for your question.
My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.
I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary. :)[/quote]
Totally valid question! And from my experience there is no common sense reply to that. From my experience (and take this with a grain of salt as I'm still fairly young too) it really depends on the individual player. I have colleagues in the same age (around their 30s) who listened to JJ Johnson only, some listened to Carl Fontana only. I've always been very open-minded in listening and always had different phases/loopholes where I really did a deep dive into the work of one particular artist for months or years. That started with Nils Wogram, developed into Carl Fontana then changed to JJ, then to Albert Mangelsdorff then to Frank Rosolino then to Slide Hampton then to Hal Crook and so on and so on....
My students at the university of arts in Hanover tend to be more in contact with music that is made nowadays. I feel like many are huge Marshall Gilkes fans. Some really dig Michael Dease or Andy Martin. Some enjoy the players of WDR Bigband. I always try to guide them to listen to the players that influenced those guys to get to the source and roots of the music/style. I personally find it important to know about the roots and where stuff comes from that players nowadays play or where they habd built their foundation on to develop something new.
And I've also seen a lot of influences (also with myself) from non-trombone players which is nice too because it leads away from the horn-specific stuff that is easy and nice to play (eg. like some of the Fontana stuff) and creates a different sound.
Hope that can be a bit of help for your question.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="EriKon"]I always try to guide them to listen to the players that influenced those guys to get to the source and roots of the music/style. I personally find it important to know about the roots and where stuff comes from that players nowadays play or where they had built their foundation on to develop something new.[/quote]
great approach
I steer the students to the old stuff. I tell them if they are going to study someone intensely it has to be someone they hold in the highest regard, not just someone they like a little bit.
when i was young i didn't like any contemporary trombone players. Didn't like much modern jazz on most instruments.
I guess I mellowed.
great approach
I steer the students to the old stuff. I tell them if they are going to study someone intensely it has to be someone they hold in the highest regard, not just someone they like a little bit.
when i was young i didn't like any contemporary trombone players. Didn't like much modern jazz on most instruments.
I guess I mellowed.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
[quote="GGJazz"]Hello again.
Hi Dana.
I think that the follow can be more representative about Jon' playing :
Straight no Chaser (trombone solo)
<YOUTUBE id="8N8aCjSDTl8">https://youtu.be/8N8aCjSDTl8?si=5olWUBPL9kJuqO6A</YOUTUBE>
Ragards again
Giancarlo[/quote]
Is he Eliot Mason influenced? Doesn't work for me. Kind of a blah blah sound, which I guess some people want. I'd rather hear sparkling rhythm, which he could apply to some of his impressive lines to good effect. I think he "steps outside" in unhelpful ways, but he gets back in, so I guess he really hears that stuff. Needs more variety, articulation, rhythm, dynamics/accenting. He does employ useful tension, as long as he stays inside. Maybe this style is from the schools? Is this how the profs now play? I can't help but think it's almost divorced from a lot of the tradition. Maybe this comes out of sax style?
Hi Dana.
I think that the follow can be more representative about Jon' playing :
Straight no Chaser (trombone solo)
<YOUTUBE id="8N8aCjSDTl8">https://youtu.be/8N8aCjSDTl8?si=5olWUBPL9kJuqO6A</YOUTUBE>
Ragards again
Giancarlo[/quote]
Is he Eliot Mason influenced? Doesn't work for me. Kind of a blah blah sound, which I guess some people want. I'd rather hear sparkling rhythm, which he could apply to some of his impressive lines to good effect. I think he "steps outside" in unhelpful ways, but he gets back in, so I guess he really hears that stuff. Needs more variety, articulation, rhythm, dynamics/accenting. He does employ useful tension, as long as he stays inside. Maybe this style is from the schools? Is this how the profs now play? I can't help but think it's almost divorced from a lot of the tradition. Maybe this comes out of sax style?
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
Everyone can be a critic but not everyone can play <EMOJI seq="1f914" tseq="1f914">🤔</EMOJI>
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
There's "what you play"
And "how you play it"
Not very many players put them both together well for my taste.
To use an older example, Jimmy Knepper. Great stuff but I could never get past how sloppy he sounded.
And "how you play it"
Not very many players put them both together well for my taste.
To use an older example, Jimmy Knepper. Great stuff but I could never get past how sloppy he sounded.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
I would recommend “pussy cat dues” from Mingus ah um, absolutely exquisite execution on that. Perhaps pre-Mingus fist fight.
I’m ok with people of all abilities critiquing. I don’t subscribe to the idea that a critic has to be a player.
I’m ok with people of all abilities critiquing. I don’t subscribe to the idea that a critic has to be a player.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]Is this how the profs now play?[/quote]
lol
but again please check out his album, not a youtube video of a jam session; jon says on the video its from his freshman year of college! with a error ridden transcription which looks like it's done by a high school sophomore...
lol
but again please check out his album, not a youtube video of a jam session; jon says on the video its from his freshman year of college! with a error ridden transcription which looks like it's done by a high school sophomore...
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The Mingus recording with Knepper:
It's been a few decades since I listened to that. Sorry for being so picky but that's not my idea of "absolutely exquisite execution." He definitely plays great ideas in his soloing - but his ensemble playing with the other horns is what I describe as "only trombone players get away with playing that way."
It's been a few decades since I listened to that. Sorry for being so picky but that's not my idea of "absolutely exquisite execution." He definitely plays great ideas in his soloing - but his ensemble playing with the other horns is what I describe as "only trombone players get away with playing that way."
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hello.
About Jon Hatamiya' video , also if it was recorded many years ago , it already show that Jon is a very good musician and player , in my opinion . Don' t care about the trancription ...! I put this video because , personally , I like his solo !
Anyway , you can give a look at Jon ' own YouTube channel ; for sure he uploaded stuff that he thinks sound good...
Regards
Giancarlo
About Jon Hatamiya' video , also if it was recorded many years ago , it already show that Jon is a very good musician and player , in my opinion . Don' t care about the trancription ...! I put this video because , personally , I like his solo !
Anyway , you can give a look at Jon ' own YouTube channel ; for sure he uploaded stuff that he thinks sound good...
Regards
Giancarlo
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="Doug Elliott"]The Mingus recording with Knepper:
It's been a few decades since I listened to that. Sorry for being so picky but that's not my idea of "absolutely exquisite execution." He definitely plays great ideas in his soloing - but his ensemble playing with the other horns is what I describe as "only trombone players get away with playing that way."[/quote]
I guess to me it sounds like very beautifully rendered swing era technique applied to charlie parker vocab, untouched by the influence of J.J. johnson-style articulation - sort of the technical toolbox of Teagarden and bill harris and dicky wells but updated to incorporate 50s modernity...but it's definitely jazz technique, lovely fuzzy soft tonguing, fluid slide movements to put legato above perfect intonation, not the sort of thing you would be doing in an orchestra. probably an "Ab in first" type player to be sure! (i love Ab in first)
I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.
but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.
plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.
It's been a few decades since I listened to that. Sorry for being so picky but that's not my idea of "absolutely exquisite execution." He definitely plays great ideas in his soloing - but his ensemble playing with the other horns is what I describe as "only trombone players get away with playing that way."[/quote]
I guess to me it sounds like very beautifully rendered swing era technique applied to charlie parker vocab, untouched by the influence of J.J. johnson-style articulation - sort of the technical toolbox of Teagarden and bill harris and dicky wells but updated to incorporate 50s modernity...but it's definitely jazz technique, lovely fuzzy soft tonguing, fluid slide movements to put legato above perfect intonation, not the sort of thing you would be doing in an orchestra. probably an "Ab in first" type player to be sure! (i love Ab in first)
I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.
but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.
plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.
- CBlair
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Jun 15, 2019
There's a fellow in Kansas City, Brian Scarborough, who probably won't be widely known like active coastal players. But don't underrate the Kansas City music scene. He's a pleasure to hear and a nice guy.
I first heard Brian when he was in middle school and still learning to play basic stuff, but you could tell he was gifted and he built himself out from there. Having seen that repeated several times is one the joys of music for me.
I first heard Brian when he was in middle school and still learning to play basic stuff, but you could tell he was gifted and he built himself out from there. Having seen that repeated several times is one the joys of music for me.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="jacobgarchik"]I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.
but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.
plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.[/quote]
I admit to having a bias for cleanliness in playing. For me, if technique is sloppy it takes away from whatever ideas a soloist has, and I think, "Well, I like your ear, but you clearly can't play what you're trying to play, so simplify it until you can." And for sure, sloppy trombone jazz is virtually unlistenable to lay people, who hear technique long before they grapple with concepts of improvisational content.
With my bias for clean playing, I also have the philosophy that simple and clean melodies are better than impressive licks that are sloppy. Indeed, I think simple and melodic is often better than impressive and intellectual. And, though I am by no means a great jazz player, I bring that philosophy into my own playing. If I can't play it cleanly, I back off and play something simpler that sounds clean. That's just me.
That said, my all-time favorite GOAT jazz trombone player was Frank Rosolino, who was anything but clean in his playing. Man, his solos were full of soul, and angst, and passion, and IMHO he was the best trombone jazz player who ever lived. Yet, he wasn't clean. I would have preferred him clean, but what he gave us was SO GOOD that the sloppiness actually added to the soul of his solos. But that's Frank. I know of exactly zero trombonists who have been able to replicate that.
but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.
plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.[/quote]
I admit to having a bias for cleanliness in playing. For me, if technique is sloppy it takes away from whatever ideas a soloist has, and I think, "Well, I like your ear, but you clearly can't play what you're trying to play, so simplify it until you can." And for sure, sloppy trombone jazz is virtually unlistenable to lay people, who hear technique long before they grapple with concepts of improvisational content.
With my bias for clean playing, I also have the philosophy that simple and clean melodies are better than impressive licks that are sloppy. Indeed, I think simple and melodic is often better than impressive and intellectual. And, though I am by no means a great jazz player, I bring that philosophy into my own playing. If I can't play it cleanly, I back off and play something simpler that sounds clean. That's just me.
That said, my all-time favorite GOAT jazz trombone player was Frank Rosolino, who was anything but clean in his playing. Man, his solos were full of soul, and angst, and passion, and IMHO he was the best trombone jazz player who ever lived. Yet, he wasn't clean. I would have preferred him clean, but what he gave us was SO GOOD that the sloppiness actually added to the soul of his solos. But that's Frank. I know of exactly zero trombonists who have been able to replicate that.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I personally love the UHOP players, the best of the bunch from the various bands can give anyone a run for their money imho. It's not a very contemporary style in terms of evolution of jazz, but it certainly is being made today.
Rosolino, JJ, Watrous, Urbie, for whatever reason just never moved me in my heart, even though I see why they are masters. I do like the older Ellington and Louie sidemen a bit more for my taste, but not truly loving those seminal figures was a big reason in me stepping out of jazz as a career path.
Outside of that, Jacob is probably my favorite jazz trombonist (as I've had the chance to tell him in person, at our kid's old playground!) and I also also earnestly love Wycliffe and Trombone Shorty. From the contemporary avant-garde school of jazz (analogous to contemporary technique on classical trombone) I like George Lewis' Braxton recordings above all. Not much else has caught my ear on the avant side, Manglesdorf included.
Rosolino, JJ, Watrous, Urbie, for whatever reason just never moved me in my heart, even though I see why they are masters. I do like the older Ellington and Louie sidemen a bit more for my taste, but not truly loving those seminal figures was a big reason in me stepping out of jazz as a career path.
Outside of that, Jacob is probably my favorite jazz trombonist (as I've had the chance to tell him in person, at our kid's old playground!) and I also also earnestly love Wycliffe and Trombone Shorty. From the contemporary avant-garde school of jazz (analogous to contemporary technique on classical trombone) I like George Lewis' Braxton recordings above all. Not much else has caught my ear on the avant side, Manglesdorf included.
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="jacobgarchik" post_id="260757" time="1733682896" user_id="3890">
I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.
but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.
plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.[/quote]
I admit to having a bias for cleanliness in playing. For me, if technique is sloppy it takes away from whatever ideas a soloist has, and I think, "Well, I like your ear, but you clearly can't play what you're trying to play, so simplify it until you can." And for sure, sloppy trombone jazz is virtually unlistenable to lay people, who hear technique long before they grapple with concepts of improvisational content.
With my bias for clean playing, I also have the philosophy that simple and clean melodies are better than impressive licks that are sloppy. Indeed, I think simple and melodic is often better than impressive and intellectual. And, though I am by no means a great jazz player, I bring that philosophy into my own playing. If I can't play it cleanly, I back off and play something simpler that sounds clean. That's just me.
That said, my all-time favorite GOAT jazz trombone player was Frank Rosolino, who was anything but clean in his playing. Man, his solos were full of soul, and angst, and passion, and IMHO he was the best trombone jazz player who ever lived. Yet, he wasn't clean. I would have preferred him clean, but what he gave us was SO GOOD that the sloppiness actually added to the soul of his solos. But that's Frank. I know of exactly zero trombonists who have been able to replicate that.
</QUOTE>
Very interesting to read! And this would be a great topic for a new thread spinning around that. Something I think a lot about for my playing too, because I always wish to be technically cleaner. But I don't really enjoy listening to super clean players. I admire it but I don't entirely enjoy it and to me super clean playing can lead to everything sounding similar and therefore there's a chance of the music getting boring. And I'm definitely not saying that it always is like that. But in a jazz context I would rather like to hear someone going to their technical limits for a musical expression they're trying to achieve rather than someone staying within a small circle to stay clean at all costs. Listening to Rosolino is a great example for that as being mentioned. I would throw in listening to someone like Miles Davis or especially Freddie Hubbard. There are several Freddie recordings or live videos where he's aiming for a high note and misses it. The great thing is how he sticks to the idea and plays with the fact of him missing that note in either trying to aim for that note again and again or using this to get a constant sound of high notes instead of a line that is being high. And those players are the most exciting to me and the ones that I want to hear when I go into a jazz club. If someone plays Body and Soul accompanied by a string orchestra this definitely changes tho.
I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.
but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.
plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.[/quote]
I admit to having a bias for cleanliness in playing. For me, if technique is sloppy it takes away from whatever ideas a soloist has, and I think, "Well, I like your ear, but you clearly can't play what you're trying to play, so simplify it until you can." And for sure, sloppy trombone jazz is virtually unlistenable to lay people, who hear technique long before they grapple with concepts of improvisational content.
With my bias for clean playing, I also have the philosophy that simple and clean melodies are better than impressive licks that are sloppy. Indeed, I think simple and melodic is often better than impressive and intellectual. And, though I am by no means a great jazz player, I bring that philosophy into my own playing. If I can't play it cleanly, I back off and play something simpler that sounds clean. That's just me.
That said, my all-time favorite GOAT jazz trombone player was Frank Rosolino, who was anything but clean in his playing. Man, his solos were full of soul, and angst, and passion, and IMHO he was the best trombone jazz player who ever lived. Yet, he wasn't clean. I would have preferred him clean, but what he gave us was SO GOOD that the sloppiness actually added to the soul of his solos. But that's Frank. I know of exactly zero trombonists who have been able to replicate that.
</QUOTE>
Very interesting to read! And this would be a great topic for a new thread spinning around that. Something I think a lot about for my playing too, because I always wish to be technically cleaner. But I don't really enjoy listening to super clean players. I admire it but I don't entirely enjoy it and to me super clean playing can lead to everything sounding similar and therefore there's a chance of the music getting boring. And I'm definitely not saying that it always is like that. But in a jazz context I would rather like to hear someone going to their technical limits for a musical expression they're trying to achieve rather than someone staying within a small circle to stay clean at all costs. Listening to Rosolino is a great example for that as being mentioned. I would throw in listening to someone like Miles Davis or especially Freddie Hubbard. There are several Freddie recordings or live videos where he's aiming for a high note and misses it. The great thing is how he sticks to the idea and plays with the fact of him missing that note in either trying to aim for that note again and again or using this to get a constant sound of high notes instead of a line that is being high. And those players are the most exciting to me and the ones that I want to hear when I go into a jazz club. If someone plays Body and Soul accompanied by a string orchestra this definitely changes tho.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
Erik, you nailed it when you observed that people who are clean "at all costs" sometimes have no soul in their playing and get boring fast. That definitely happens. I think Carl Fontana and Bill Watrous suffered from that at times. Still, I'd rather listen to Carl's or Bill's boring precision than whatever it is Roswell Rudd did. :D
There has to be a give and take. No one ever played a great solo who was trying to be safe and not take any risks. Mistakes or sloppiness are part of playing jazz, and sometimes they make a solo stand out. Still, on balance, I prefer one who plays a generally clean solo over one who plays a generally sloppy solo. That's my bias. We all have our own.
And Freddie Hubbard missing a high note and using it as part of his form is just masterful. The missed note becomes a focal point of the solo development. That happened with Rosolino on "I Just Don't Want To Run Around Anymore," where he misses a high note and then goes for it three more times, and it just makes the solo better as it adds such tension and soul. You're rooting for him when he goes for it again, and thrilled when he hits it. That's wonderful artistry from folks who have the chops, the knowledge and the ears to turn a mistake into an advantage. Freddie and Frank were absolute masters at stuff like that. Players like that are rare.
But Freddie didn't play sloppy all the time, throughout entire solos, like some trombonists do and call it their "style." I get that trombone is harder than trumpet or sax for jazz, but to me you have to play the horn before you can play the jazz. Some folks are drawn to that sloppy/edgy/out-of-control style. I'm just not one of them.
There has to be a give and take. No one ever played a great solo who was trying to be safe and not take any risks. Mistakes or sloppiness are part of playing jazz, and sometimes they make a solo stand out. Still, on balance, I prefer one who plays a generally clean solo over one who plays a generally sloppy solo. That's my bias. We all have our own.
And Freddie Hubbard missing a high note and using it as part of his form is just masterful. The missed note becomes a focal point of the solo development. That happened with Rosolino on "I Just Don't Want To Run Around Anymore," where he misses a high note and then goes for it three more times, and it just makes the solo better as it adds such tension and soul. You're rooting for him when he goes for it again, and thrilled when he hits it. That's wonderful artistry from folks who have the chops, the knowledge and the ears to turn a mistake into an advantage. Freddie and Frank were absolute masters at stuff like that. Players like that are rare.
But Freddie didn't play sloppy all the time, throughout entire solos, like some trombonists do and call it their "style." I get that trombone is harder than trumpet or sax for jazz, but to me you have to play the horn before you can play the jazz. Some folks are drawn to that sloppy/edgy/out-of-control style. I'm just not one of them.
- whyking
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Aug 09, 2022
[quote="baileyman"]
Is he Eliot Mason influenced? Doesn't work for me. Kind of a blah blah sound, which I guess some people want. I'd rather hear sparkling rhythm, which he could apply to some of his impressive lines to good effect. I think he "steps outside" in unhelpful ways, but he gets back in, so I guess he really hears that stuff. Needs more variety, articulation, rhythm, dynamics/accenting. He does employ useful tension, as long as he stays inside. Maybe this style is from the schools? Is this how the profs now play? I can't help but think it's almost divorced from a lot of the tradition. Maybe this comes out of sax style?[/quote]
I know some semi-profs who play like this. But there are other young working trombonists in LA who do movie sessions and play with great time. I don’t think it’s fair to sideline those guys by completely focusing on the older generation.
[quote="jacobgarchik"]
bro i got bad news for you about J.J. Johnson!
[/quote]
I just googled him. I bet Jon Hatemeya could play him under the table.
Is he Eliot Mason influenced? Doesn't work for me. Kind of a blah blah sound, which I guess some people want. I'd rather hear sparkling rhythm, which he could apply to some of his impressive lines to good effect. I think he "steps outside" in unhelpful ways, but he gets back in, so I guess he really hears that stuff. Needs more variety, articulation, rhythm, dynamics/accenting. He does employ useful tension, as long as he stays inside. Maybe this style is from the schools? Is this how the profs now play? I can't help but think it's almost divorced from a lot of the tradition. Maybe this comes out of sax style?[/quote]
I know some semi-profs who play like this. But there are other young working trombonists in LA who do movie sessions and play with great time. I don’t think it’s fair to sideline those guys by completely focusing on the older generation.
[quote="jacobgarchik"]
bro i got bad news for you about J.J. Johnson!
[/quote]
I just googled him. I bet Jon Hatemeya could play him under the table.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="whyking"]I just googled him. I bet Jon Hatemeya could play him under the table.[/quote]
I'm sure he could, JJ's not doing so much playing nowadays.
I'm sure he could, JJ's not doing so much playing nowadays.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
“Erik, you nailed it when you observed that people who are clean "at all costs" sometimes have no soul in their playing and get boring fast.”
Bob McChesney (although he did a to die for “The FirstTime…”) can get a little like this for me. Wouldn’t say ‘no soul” though.
Bob McChesney (although he did a to die for “The FirstTime…”) can get a little like this for me. Wouldn’t say ‘no soul” though.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="WilliamLang"]I personally love the UHOP players, the best of the bunch from the various bands can give anyone a run for their money imho. It's not a very contemporary style in terms of evolution of jazz, but it certainly is being made today.
Rosolino, JJ, Watrous, Urbie, for whatever reason just never moved me in my heart, even though I see why they are masters. I do like the older Ellington and Louie sidemen a bit more for my taste, but not truly loving those seminal figures was a big reason in me stepping out of jazz as a career path.
Outside of that, Jacob is probably my favorite jazz trombonist (as I've had the chance to tell him in person, at our kid's old playground!) and I also also earnestly love Wycliffe and Trombone Shorty. From the contemporary avant-garde school of jazz (analogous to contemporary technique on classical trombone) I like George Lewis' Braxton recordings above all. Not much else has caught my ear on the avant side, Manglesdorf included.[/quote]
Hey thanks!!!!
Both George Lewis and Braxton are great examples of musicians who are virtuosos who play on the very edge of what their technique allows and sometimes go past what they can safely play. A different kind of virtuosity.
Compare with, say, Stan Getz, or Michael Brecker - you get the sense that no matter what they are playing, with significant virtuosic technique, they are always within their capabilities.
worthwhile to ponder which approach is most appealing and why.
as for Trombone Shorty, he's a good example of breaking the rule of "most people prefer clean technique" - and I think he's a remarkable player, with remarkable popular appeal.
Rosolino, JJ, Watrous, Urbie, for whatever reason just never moved me in my heart, even though I see why they are masters. I do like the older Ellington and Louie sidemen a bit more for my taste, but not truly loving those seminal figures was a big reason in me stepping out of jazz as a career path.
Outside of that, Jacob is probably my favorite jazz trombonist (as I've had the chance to tell him in person, at our kid's old playground!) and I also also earnestly love Wycliffe and Trombone Shorty. From the contemporary avant-garde school of jazz (analogous to contemporary technique on classical trombone) I like George Lewis' Braxton recordings above all. Not much else has caught my ear on the avant side, Manglesdorf included.[/quote]
Hey thanks!!!!
Both George Lewis and Braxton are great examples of musicians who are virtuosos who play on the very edge of what their technique allows and sometimes go past what they can safely play. A different kind of virtuosity.
Compare with, say, Stan Getz, or Michael Brecker - you get the sense that no matter what they are playing, with significant virtuosic technique, they are always within their capabilities.
worthwhile to ponder which approach is most appealing and why.
as for Trombone Shorty, he's a good example of breaking the rule of "most people prefer clean technique" - and I think he's a remarkable player, with remarkable popular appeal.
- mbarbier
- Posts: 367
- Joined: May 17, 2018
A current player I really love is Kalia Vandever. Wonderful playing, keeps it simple and just incredibly beautiful while playing inventive stuff.
I'm with Will that Mangelsdorf never did it for me, but Dick Griffen really does. 8th Wonder of the World is some truly lovely playing with incredible multiphonics.
George Lewis is my absolute favorite. Genius in pretty much every sense. Saw him give a lecture yesterday fully in fluent German. Seems like his brain has no bounds, creatively or academically.
I'm with Will that Mangelsdorf never did it for me, but Dick Griffen really does. 8th Wonder of the World is some truly lovely playing with incredible multiphonics.
George Lewis is my absolute favorite. Genius in pretty much every sense. Saw him give a lecture yesterday fully in fluent German. Seems like his brain has no bounds, creatively or academically.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
Michael Nelson, of 'Hornheads' and Prince fame, and now the arranger of Cory Wong's awesome horn section.
He builds on Fred Wesley and other funky players, and whatever he plays fits the music...with technique to burn.
Plus, check out his older playing in his own 'Hornheads' recordings.
Fantastic to say the least, and musical.
He builds on Fred Wesley and other funky players, and whatever he plays fits the music...with technique to burn.
Plus, check out his older playing in his own 'Hornheads' recordings.
Fantastic to say the least, and musical.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Not exactly current since he's been gone a long time, but I don't think anybody has mentioned Eje Thelin, one of my favorites.
- Joebone
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Aug 02, 2018
Interesting thread, and in the next few weeks hoping to check out some of these folks who are new to me. That said, what started as discussion of "young" vs. "old" has manifested other dividing lines: "clean" vs. "less than clean," and numerous stylistic divisions that transcend young vs. old. Albert Mangelsdorf is long gone; but while he opened up new forms and means of expression, there are younger players with no interest in his path, who may instead be interested in perfecting bop-based performance, ultra-clean Urbie/Watrous stylings, etc. The big news is that they ALL are valid, so long as there is a spark of feeling and humanity, rather than hearing well-machined ball bearings racing along a course. If Urbie-stuff is truly who you are, I'm all for it so long as I can hear and feel your musical intentions in some way. And if your headspace is drawn to Roswell Rudd growlings and rabbit holes, that's also very cool - you might have trouble supporting yourself without a day gig unless you can also perform consistent with conventional standards, but if that's your path, then pursue accordingly! I guess the ideal trombonist is like that album cover from Orchestra Baobab: "Specialists in all Styles!"
And in trying to think this through, I'm wondering if it's worth considering whether "reach" vs. "perfection" is of value as an analytic dyad. Personally, I've generally been drawn to performers -- across jazz and other art forms -- who are reaching for the purest expression of their feelings and intentions. If you're Picasso, or Coltrane, or John McLaughlin, and your technical prowess and visionary instincts are highly evolved and in equipoise, well, there you have it! If not, but what you're doing still has coherence and expressive force, then go for it. Meanwhile, three data points that perhaps obscure the line between clean and compelling:
** The first few notes of Miles' solo on "Saeta," off of "Sketches of Spain." Certainly not "clean," but perhaps the most evocative notes in all of jazz. The man had a feeling or concept that he was driven to deliver, no matter how he got there.
** Freddie Hubbard and Lee Morgan squaring off in a 23-minute rendition of "Pensativa," on a live album called "Night of the Cookers" - it's like Ali-Frazer, demonstrating mutual triumph as two great trumpeters push their limits - and each other - in ways that go beyond higher/louder/faster.
** Jimmy Knepper's "Cunningbird" album, throughout which Knepper presents unique tone, phrasing and timefeel -- and some very cool compositions - all of which is so completely his own.
And there's so much more, through all of the tributary styles that feed the ongoing river of "Jazz." I'll always respect - and sometimes envy - the zillion 'bonists who can play circles around me...but the material I keep coming back to generally shows curiosity or intentionality of musical expression in the moment, rather than sticking with the program. My favorite definition of Jazz - the sound of surprise.
And in trying to think this through, I'm wondering if it's worth considering whether "reach" vs. "perfection" is of value as an analytic dyad. Personally, I've generally been drawn to performers -- across jazz and other art forms -- who are reaching for the purest expression of their feelings and intentions. If you're Picasso, or Coltrane, or John McLaughlin, and your technical prowess and visionary instincts are highly evolved and in equipoise, well, there you have it! If not, but what you're doing still has coherence and expressive force, then go for it. Meanwhile, three data points that perhaps obscure the line between clean and compelling:
** The first few notes of Miles' solo on "Saeta," off of "Sketches of Spain." Certainly not "clean," but perhaps the most evocative notes in all of jazz. The man had a feeling or concept that he was driven to deliver, no matter how he got there.
** Freddie Hubbard and Lee Morgan squaring off in a 23-minute rendition of "Pensativa," on a live album called "Night of the Cookers" - it's like Ali-Frazer, demonstrating mutual triumph as two great trumpeters push their limits - and each other - in ways that go beyond higher/louder/faster.
** Jimmy Knepper's "Cunningbird" album, throughout which Knepper presents unique tone, phrasing and timefeel -- and some very cool compositions - all of which is so completely his own.
And there's so much more, through all of the tributary styles that feed the ongoing river of "Jazz." I'll always respect - and sometimes envy - the zillion 'bonists who can play circles around me...but the material I keep coming back to generally shows curiosity or intentionality of musical expression in the moment, rather than sticking with the program. My favorite definition of Jazz - the sound of surprise.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I am pleased to see Steve Davis’ name above. He has a new album out, We See, that I’ve listened to a bit. When asked who my favourite trombone players are, I am usually stuck for an answer, but Mr. Davis certainly is on a very short list of players I find listenable.
This led me to wonder whether Steve Turre is still active.
Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.
This led me to wonder whether Steve Turre is still active.
Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]
Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.[/quote]
damn, if those guys are easy listening...
Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.[/quote]
damn, if those guys are easy listening...
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="Bach5G"]
This led me to wonder whether Steve Turre is still active.
[/quote]
He did a concert over here in Hamburg, Germany at the Philharmonic last year and a clinic as well. I wasn't there unfortunately because I had gigs myself. A pity...
This led me to wonder whether Steve Turre is still active.
[/quote]
He did a concert over here in Hamburg, Germany at the Philharmonic last year and a clinic as well. I wasn't there unfortunately because I had gigs myself. A pity...
- EriKon
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Apr 03, 2022
[quote="Bach5G"]Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.[/quote]
I wouldn't add Steve D. to a list of contemporary trombone players but to a list of more traditional / post bop players. I haven't listened to that much recordings with him but everything I heard was mostly standards with an approach that is similar to JJ or Curtis Fuller in their peak years (and other players from those periods). Nicely executed of course, but not what should be meant by "contemporary".
I wouldn't add Steve D. to a list of contemporary trombone players but to a list of more traditional / post bop players. I haven't listened to that much recordings with him but everything I heard was mostly standards with an approach that is similar to JJ or Curtis Fuller in their peak years (and other players from those periods). Nicely executed of course, but not what should be meant by "contemporary".
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
Contemporary is a moving target...Turre has done a wide variety of playing. Avant garde stuff, even.
The original poster makes me think they are looking for a certain type of swinging or groove oriented linearity, as opposed to more timbral exploration, abstracted rhythm, or post modern takes. All of which I might consider contemporary. Even a bebop record could be contemporary if done with a certain panache.
Some of these people have never done albums under their own names. I say this not to complain but to cheerlead! More trombone-led albums please. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I like a quality product, album length, not just a link to a single tune at a gig on youtube. Actually amazing how well known some of these players have gotten merely from youtube videos.
The original poster makes me think they are looking for a certain type of swinging or groove oriented linearity, as opposed to more timbral exploration, abstracted rhythm, or post modern takes. All of which I might consider contemporary. Even a bebop record could be contemporary if done with a certain panache.
Some of these people have never done albums under their own names. I say this not to complain but to cheerlead! More trombone-led albums please. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I like a quality product, album length, not just a link to a single tune at a gig on youtube. Actually amazing how well known some of these players have gotten merely from youtube videos.
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
Davis sounds very much like Curtis Fuller on the latest. Covers All Blues and Milestones.
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi.
Well , considering that OP mentioned also Nils Wogran and Elliot Mason , it seem to me that he doesn' t want to include only musicians that are reserchers of new musical path still unexplored ...
Mason is 47 , and Wogran is 51 , I guess ; they play deep , modern , Jazz music .
So , in my opinion , "contemporary jazz players" could mean " trombone players still active" in a modern jazz context , that can include also post - bop players , as Steve Davis .
Anyway , I think that everything " far away from the tradition" , that is played nowadays , is taken and processed from the 1960/1970 . About 60/65 years ago .
Ornette Coleman recorded " The shape of jazz to come" in 1959 ; the Art Ensemble of Chicago is active from the 1969/70 ; etc (I really love these musicians !) .
About trbn players , I think that "avant garde - contemporary- free- etc" musicians are not just a personal and original expression of themselves : they have their roots in Roswell Rudd , George Lewis , and also Craig Harris , etc . As post- bop musicians have their roots in J. J. Johnson , Frank Rosolino , Slide Hampton , etc.
George Lewis (1977) "Cycle"
<YOUTUBE id="O0vq26UzJW8">https://youtu.be/O0vq26UzJW8?si=uVFtdvTFd05jgKSo</YOUTUBE>
George Lewis (1976) "Ornithology"
<YOUTUBE id="f6TKPRoE2q0">https://youtu.be/f6TKPRoE2q0?si=NznfPFbeLp6COvV7</YOUTUBE>
Roswell Rudd (1967) "Everywhere"
<YOUTUBE id="UXBJmnlyeA4">https://youtu.be/UXBJmnlyeA4?si=NmCnHRlhPyPLhYVM</YOUTUBE>
Craig Harris (1983) " Aboriginal Affairs"
<YOUTUBE id="gFXG3YIyU4c">https://youtu.be/gFXG3YIyU4c?si=eOvPP0w5o_qxnc-A</YOUTUBE>
About the "young" players mentioned above ( as Robinson Khoury , Kalia Vandever , etc) , personally I do not find anything that original or surprising ; it seem to me that what they play have already been listened to over and over again , in the last 20/30 years . My opinion , of course .
Regards
Giancarlo
Well , considering that OP mentioned also Nils Wogran and Elliot Mason , it seem to me that he doesn' t want to include only musicians that are reserchers of new musical path still unexplored ...
Mason is 47 , and Wogran is 51 , I guess ; they play deep , modern , Jazz music .
So , in my opinion , "contemporary jazz players" could mean " trombone players still active" in a modern jazz context , that can include also post - bop players , as Steve Davis .
Anyway , I think that everything " far away from the tradition" , that is played nowadays , is taken and processed from the 1960/1970 . About 60/65 years ago .
Ornette Coleman recorded " The shape of jazz to come" in 1959 ; the Art Ensemble of Chicago is active from the 1969/70 ; etc (I really love these musicians !) .
About trbn players , I think that "avant garde - contemporary- free- etc" musicians are not just a personal and original expression of themselves : they have their roots in Roswell Rudd , George Lewis , and also Craig Harris , etc . As post- bop musicians have their roots in J. J. Johnson , Frank Rosolino , Slide Hampton , etc.
George Lewis (1977) "Cycle"
<YOUTUBE id="O0vq26UzJW8">https://youtu.be/O0vq26UzJW8?si=uVFtdvTFd05jgKSo</YOUTUBE>
George Lewis (1976) "Ornithology"
<YOUTUBE id="f6TKPRoE2q0">https://youtu.be/f6TKPRoE2q0?si=NznfPFbeLp6COvV7</YOUTUBE>
Roswell Rudd (1967) "Everywhere"
<YOUTUBE id="UXBJmnlyeA4">https://youtu.be/UXBJmnlyeA4?si=NmCnHRlhPyPLhYVM</YOUTUBE>
Craig Harris (1983) " Aboriginal Affairs"
<YOUTUBE id="gFXG3YIyU4c">https://youtu.be/gFXG3YIyU4c?si=eOvPP0w5o_qxnc-A</YOUTUBE>
About the "young" players mentioned above ( as Robinson Khoury , Kalia Vandever , etc) , personally I do not find anything that original or surprising ; it seem to me that what they play have already been listened to over and over again , in the last 20/30 years . My opinion , of course .
Regards
Giancarlo
- brumpone
- Posts: 54
- Joined: May 09, 2019
After picking up Trombone the first bone gig I attended was Jacob Garchik at CBSO Centre performing The Heavens -- still a huge favourite of mine -- where I heard Richard Foote and Kieran McLeod for the first time. The second time I heard them both was in a bar doing a short set after Moseley Jazz Festival.* I've seen them a bunch of times since, in Young Pilgrims and once as part of Riot Jazz in Manchester. (A guy leaving the Riot Jazz gig was very loudly and favourably comparing Richard with Watrous, which I don't get at all.) Richard gave a mesmerising performance in the Hexagon theatre at the MAC Birmingham; totally unexpected free-jazz improvising with tenor sax player Paul Dunmall, it was phenomenal.
https://youngpilgrimsmusic.bandcamp.com/
Dave Sear has been mentioned once or twice on this site. His Instagram clips of him playing along to crazy sax solos are insanely good. I first saw him at a beer festival in Heavy Beats Brass Band, but most recently at Cherry Reds, playing alongside Mark Nightingale. 2 amazing players together!
https://www.davesear.com/listen
Shannon Barnett was already referenced in this thread. Other players I enjoy listening to are Rosie Turton and Nathaniel Cross (haven't seen him live, sadly), brother of tubist from Sons of Kemet, Theon Cross.
* Speaking of Moseley Jazz Festival, I'm still gutted we were evacuated in 2023 just as Fred Wesley was setting up on stage.
https://youngpilgrimsmusic.bandcamp.com/
Dave Sear has been mentioned once or twice on this site. His Instagram clips of him playing along to crazy sax solos are insanely good. I first saw him at a beer festival in Heavy Beats Brass Band, but most recently at Cherry Reds, playing alongside Mark Nightingale. 2 amazing players together!
https://www.davesear.com/listen
Shannon Barnett was already referenced in this thread. Other players I enjoy listening to are Rosie Turton and Nathaniel Cross (haven't seen him live, sadly), brother of tubist from Sons of Kemet, Theon Cross.
* Speaking of Moseley Jazz Festival, I'm still gutted we were evacuated in 2023 just as Fred Wesley was setting up on stage.
- mgladdish
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Oct 10, 2021
Wow, that Craig Harris album is a hard listen. Both musically and trombonically (of course that's a word).
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="brumpone"]After picking up Trombone the first bone gig I attended was Jacob Garchik at CBSO Centre performing The Heavens -- still a huge favourite of mine -- where I heard Richard Foote and Kieran McLeod for the first time.
[/quote]
Hey cool! Those blokes are awesome.
As is Shannon - I did the Heavens in Cologne with her and her students this past January!
[/quote]
Hey cool! Those blokes are awesome.
As is Shannon - I did the Heavens in Cologne with her and her students this past January!
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I noticed today that Steve Turre recently released an album called Sanyas (seasonally spell corrected to “Santa’s”) on Smoke Sessions Records.
- pfrancis
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Jul 22, 2018
Luke Brimhall in the Army Blues is a really lovely player. Lyrical and facile and he always brings some personality that feels authentic. Nice blend of yesterday and today for anyone to check out.
<YOUTUBE id="xTc038NRWbk">https://youtu.be/xTc038NRWbk?si=anQYjz1FoajJxJQU</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="OSfS8mY90F0">https://youtu.be/OSfS8mY90F0?si=EkFL3eMJXCb0uVXa</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="xTc038NRWbk">https://youtu.be/xTc038NRWbk?si=anQYjz1FoajJxJQU</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="OSfS8mY90F0">https://youtu.be/OSfS8mY90F0?si=EkFL3eMJXCb0uVXa</YOUTUBE>
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="pfrancis"]Luke Brimhall in the Army Blues is a really lovely player. Lyrical and facile and he always brings some personality that feels authentic. Nice blend of yesterday and today for anyone to check out.
<YOUTUBE id="xTc038NRWbk">https://youtu.be/xTc038NRWbk?si=anQYjz1FoajJxJQU</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="OSfS8mY90F0">https://youtu.be/OSfS8mY90F0?si=EkFL3eMJXCb0uVXa</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
This guy sounds good.
those transcriptions at the bottom add nothing. What, are you supposed to be playing along, reading tiny print from your screen? Plus they are filled with mistakes! That's a trend that can end now, plz.
<YOUTUBE id="xTc038NRWbk">https://youtu.be/xTc038NRWbk?si=anQYjz1FoajJxJQU</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="OSfS8mY90F0">https://youtu.be/OSfS8mY90F0?si=EkFL3eMJXCb0uVXa</YOUTUBE>[/quote]
This guy sounds good.
those transcriptions at the bottom add nothing. What, are you supposed to be playing along, reading tiny print from your screen? Plus they are filled with mistakes! That's a trend that can end now, plz.
- pfrancis
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Jul 22, 2018
I hear ya on the transcriptions, to this guys credit he does link to original performances too in description. I shared this was so people could check out Luke blowing more easily.
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="Bach5G"]A name new to me: Kalia Vandever, We Fell In Turn.[/quote]
Kalia is a visionary! She plays on my album "Clear Line".
She's also teaching jazz trombone at NEC.
Kalia is a visionary! She plays on my album "Clear Line".
She's also teaching jazz trombone at NEC.
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
There's a reason the American Songbook was such a hit for so long: the material is STRONG. The melodies are compelling, the changes often brilliant, and often humorous underneath, something for every listener of every ability and understanding to enjoy. Why would contemporary players opt for weak material to work with? How can they possibly hope to win listeners this way?
- jacobgarchik
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Oct 27, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]There's a reason the American Songbook was such a hit for so long: the material is STRONG. The melodies are compelling, the changes often brilliant, and often humorous underneath, something for every listener of every ability and understanding to enjoy. Why would contemporary players opt for weak material to work with? How can they possibly hope to win listeners this way?[/quote]
I don't get it. Jazz musicians have been playing original material, alongside Tin Pan Alley songs, since the beginning.
Sure, some people's compositions aren't strong, but on the other hand, if people never tried to write anything and everyone just played Tin Pan Alley we would never have Duke/Monk/Golson/Shorter/Threadgill.
Believe it or not there are listeners out there who are interested in new jazz compositions. Plenty of room for all approaches.
I don't get it. Jazz musicians have been playing original material, alongside Tin Pan Alley songs, since the beginning.
Sure, some people's compositions aren't strong, but on the other hand, if people never tried to write anything and everyone just played Tin Pan Alley we would never have Duke/Monk/Golson/Shorter/Threadgill.
Believe it or not there are listeners out there who are interested in new jazz compositions. Plenty of room for all approaches.
- Posaunus
- Posts: 5018
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="baileyman"]All valid, but the why remains.[/quote]
Perhaps for the same reasons that many churches have replaced pipe organs and choirs singing hundred-year-old hymns with guitars and drums accompanying praise bands? Tastes change, people want something new. Newer is not necessarily worse.
Beethoven was a revolutionary. Wagner was a radical. Berlioz was an extremist. Stravinsky was violent. Louis Armstrong was different. Schoenberg was intolerable. Charles Mingus was uncompromising. Thelonius Monk was progressive. Elvis was tasteless. Miles Davis was a leftist. Stan Kenton was anarchistic. The Beatles were free-thinking. Don Ellis was far-out. ...
Baileyman, your take perplexes me. :idk:
Perhaps for the same reasons that many churches have replaced pipe organs and choirs singing hundred-year-old hymns with guitars and drums accompanying praise bands? Tastes change, people want something new. Newer is not necessarily worse.
Beethoven was a revolutionary. Wagner was a radical. Berlioz was an extremist. Stravinsky was violent. Louis Armstrong was different. Schoenberg was intolerable. Charles Mingus was uncompromising. Thelonius Monk was progressive. Elvis was tasteless. Miles Davis was a leftist. Stan Kenton was anarchistic. The Beatles were free-thinking. Don Ellis was far-out. ...
Baileyman, your take perplexes me. :idk:
- baileyman
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Mangelsdorff, Anderson, Mingus, Silver, Monk and Duke and Golson (as listed), Mandel, Mancini, Johnny Williams, Brubeck and Desmond, all jazz guys who wrote compelling strong material. I'm sure I leave many out. See Alec Wilder's discussion in American Popular Song: The Great Innovators, 1900–1950 where he played through I think some 18,000 tunes to find the ones to include as worthy of being the best. The same is true among jazz tunes, I think we all know that.
Following up on earlier praise for a contemorary player I found some and listened, wondering what I missed. And it was astonishingly weak material. An entire 90 minutes of weak self composition. And this is not unusual. When I hear contemporary players, weak material is the norm. Self composed material is the norm.
It would seem to be a better idea for a player to cover strong material in contemporary self-style and include a couple self composed pieces that were their strongest. But clearly I am off base on this, so the why remains.
Following up on earlier praise for a contemorary player I found some and listened, wondering what I missed. And it was astonishingly weak material. An entire 90 minutes of weak self composition. And this is not unusual. When I hear contemporary players, weak material is the norm. Self composed material is the norm.
It would seem to be a better idea for a player to cover strong material in contemporary self-style and include a couple self composed pieces that were their strongest. But clearly I am off base on this, so the why remains.
- pfrancis
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Jul 22, 2018
Luke sounding great again:
<YOUTUBE id="W0CsIiewYWM">https://youtu.be/W0CsIiewYWM?si=bGIeKLSD2O78Z1uW</YOUTUBE>
<YOUTUBE id="W0CsIiewYWM">https://youtu.be/W0CsIiewYWM?si=bGIeKLSD2O78Z1uW</YOUTUBE>
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Andy Hunter