Best Dependent bass design?

SamBTbrn · by **SamBTbrn** » 2024-12-06 1:19 p.m.

In your opinions what is the best valve set up/positioning for a dependent bass? ie in a line like the Conn 62h or diagonally stacked like the Kings?

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-06 1:31 p.m.

I'm not really sure it matters that much. Also don't forget that there are some designs that due to the valve (like a Hagmann) necessarily need to be mounted farther away.

One of the dependent basses I see most often these days is actually the Yamaha YBL-822G Doug Yeo model, which is definitely a great improvement on the original Kleinhammer model with the "bird's nest" valve. That has the second valve quite a bit far away from the first valve, but works just fine.

In terms of ergonomics and feel, I honestly am so in love with the Yamaha lever design and location that I don't know if I'd ever be able to play a double trigger bass not set up exactly the same way.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-06 1:38 p.m.

independent M&W rotors

Wait...

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-12-06 2:23 p.m.

I like the 2nd valve to be nested just above the F valve. That seems to work best from a balance perspective on the horns I've tried.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2024-12-06 6:11 p.m.

As much as I dislike Yamaha the Doug Yeo dependent rotor design was quite good. Other than that I've preferred stacked.

Here's what I got...

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2024-12-06 7:03 p.m.

I’ve become fond of the Rath/Shires/Greenhoe style dependent setups. I really like my R9 Rotax dependent valve section.

I feel like they have a good balance in hand and you don’t run into space issues with larger valves like you do if you try to build a valve section with the valves side by side.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-12-06 8:37 p.m.

This is my favorite.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2024-12-06 9:01 p.m.

My two favorites

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-12-06 10:02 p.m.

I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

Dependent horns are ok as long as you're a new bass player or never have an urge to use the second lever by itself. As soon as you want to use it, you can't go back. It's ok, there's no shame in avoiding the second lever by itself. Lots of people made a career on dependent bass. So what? You play a few more 5th positions.

jonathanharker · by **jonathanharker** » 2024-12-06 10:10 p.m.

I really like my 1999 S.E. Shires with stacked F and D (Shires-built) Greenhoe valves. It can bang out a good low C and B no problem, really good action, no valve pop, no stuffy nonsense in the low register.

(Image CC-BY on ~~[url=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WANZ_Instrument_2024-09_IMG_7797_Shires_bass_trombone.png]~~Wikimedia Commons)

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2024-12-06 10:24 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

Dependent horns are ok as long as you're a new bass player or never have an urge to use the second lever by itself. As soon as you want to use it, you can't go back. It's ok, there's no shame in avoiding the second lever by itself. Lots of people made a career on dependent bass. So what? You play a few more 5th positions.[/quote]

Shots fired!

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-12-06 10:42 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]

Shots fired![/quote]

Don't take it the wrong way. I don't mean to disparage new or boutique horns, but I just don't think someone buying a new bone for ~$7 is going to want a dependent, even if the second valve is removable.

Duo Gravis is the only dependent that anyone goes out looking for by name, and maybe just because of its commercial sound reputation due to small tubing diameter through the valves. Nobody makes anything like it these days, not even the Chinese.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2024-12-06 10:52 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="260613" time="1733541858" user_id="4931">

Shots fired![/quote]

Don't take it the wrong way. I don't mean to disparage new or boutique horns, but I just don't think someone buying a new bone for ~$7 is going to want a dependent, even if the second valve is removable.

Duo Gravis is the only dependent that anyone goes out looking for by name, and maybe just because of its commercial sound reputation due to small tubing diameter through the valves. Nobody makes anything like it these days, not even the Chinese.
</QUOTE>

Oh I don't think it's any secret dependent horns are a woefully unpopular choice these days. My personal tastes, however, find them infinitely more desirable.

atopper333 · by **atopper333** » 2024-12-06 11:19 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]

Oh I don't think it's any secret dependent horns are a woefully unpopular choice these days. My personal tastes, however, find them infinitely more desirable.[/quote]

Totally agree! If I had the money and the time to take on bass seriously…I’d definitely be going for a dependent. The ones you posted, the M and W, and that Shires are works of art, and I’m betting they sound amazing! Personal taste I guess…but that’s definitely what I’m going to be going for one of these days!

SamBTbrn · by **SamBTbrn** » 2024-12-07 2:29 a.m.

[quote="hornbuilder"]This is my favorite.[/quote]

Thanks for the replies everyone, feel free to elaborate on why they are your favorite choices!

Is there a reason that makes the diagonals your choice of build Mattew? Is it a sound thing or just an ergonomics?

Cheers

Sam

Wilco · by **Wilco** » 2024-12-07 5:53 a.m.

I love hagmann Conn design Erik van Lier did! Awesome:)

The Thein one is also quite nice <EMOJI seq="1f60e" tseq="1f60e">😎</EMOJI>

Wilco · by **Wilco** » 2024-12-07 6:03 a.m.

hornbuilder · 2024-12-07 12:13 p.m.

In reply to Sam,

I've been at this game for 30 years, and have done a LOT of experimenting/prototyping. I have developed a certain aesthetic that I like, and this dependent configuration fits within that. Having the second valve close to the first valve, along with the valve tubing running on either side of the main body, give a good balance, feel, and blow. I also make all of my own parts, so am not constrained by having to find parts and have to fudge them to make them work. I'm actually working on a dependent TIS bass for a well known player in San Francisco at present...

SamBTbrn · by **SamBTbrn** » 2024-12-07 12:22 p.m.

Thanks for replying Matthew!!

It's always super interesting to hear why you do things the way you do.

Best

Sam

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-12-07 12:44 p.m.

Side note. In my 16 years of playing for the Australian Opera, I developed a reputation for experimenting with trombones. It reached the point where it was not uncommon for the question to be asked "So, what did you bring in to try out tonight?"

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-12-07 1:39 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

Dependent horns are ok as long as you're a new bass player or never have an urge to use the second lever by itself. As soon as you want to use it, you can't go back. It's ok, there's no shame in avoiding the second lever by itself. Lots of people made a career on dependent bass. So what? You play a few more 5th positions.[/quote]

In my opinion both of these paragraphs don't make sense.

a) People ask at least as much for old Conn 62h and similar setups as well as e g modern Greenhoe, M and W etc dependent setups

b) I have played independent for quite some years, but went back to primarily playing dependent today. all the dependent horns I owned in the past and today had something I preferred over the independent ones. And that minor loss of flexibility is not a real issue at least for me. And as I am certainly not the best reference, think about Bill Reichenbach, John Rojak, Phil Teele, Dave Taylor and many more who play or played dependent for the larger part of their careers

Reg design of dependent horns. The actual builders certainly know best. I think it's generally good to have the second valve relatively close to the first. This may improve balance and typically allows for shorter linkage.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-07 1:54 p.m.

[quote="MStarke"]

In my opinion both of these paragraphs don't make sense.

a) People ask at least as much for old Conn 62h and similar setups as well as e g modern Greenhoe, M and W etc dependent setups

b) I have played independent for quite some years, but went back to primarily playing dependent today. all the dependent horns I owned in the past and today had something I preferred over the independent ones. And that minor loss of flexibility is not a real issue at least for me. And as I am certainly not the best reference, think about Bill Reichenbach, John Rojak, Phil Teele, Dave Taylor and many more who play or played dependent for the larger part of their careers
[/quote]

a) I don't think this is true. The big makers (Edwards and Shires) have cut the dependent models from their lineups entirely. I think if we asked Matt, a vast majority of his valve builds would be independent. The only reason Conn and Bach still have them at all is because schools buy them (probably on accident at this point).

b) All of those, for lack of better words, are older players. Retired, working, deceased, and working is not exactly a glowing recommendation for dependent. I don't think we can diminish their contribution to bass trombonedom, but we can also recognize that they probably grew up with dependent and never changed.

You can like dependent all you want, but the evidence is that it's largely obsolete.

Wilco · by **Wilco** » 2024-12-07 2:14 p.m.

Angus butt still playing on a dep?

SamBTbrn · by **SamBTbrn** » 2024-12-07 2:15 p.m.

[quote="Wilco"]Angus butt still playing on a dep?[/quote]

Yep, most recently with the Berlin Phil.

MStarke · 2024-12-07 2:23 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="260663" time="1733596790" user_id="4208">

In my opinion both of these paragraphs don't make sense.

a) People ask at least as much for old Conn 62h and similar setups as well as e g modern Greenhoe, M and W etc dependent setups

b) I have played independent for quite some years, but went back to primarily playing dependent today. all the dependent horns I owned in the past and today had something I preferred over the independent ones. And that minor loss of flexibility is not a real issue at least for me. And as I am certainly not the best reference, think about Bill Reichenbach, John Rojak, Phil Teele, Dave Taylor and many more who play or played dependent for the larger part of their careers
[/quote]

a) I don't think this is true. The big makers (Edwards and Shires) have cut the dependent models from their lineups entirely. I think if we asked Matt, a vast majority of his valve builds would be independent. The only reason Conn and Bach still have them at all is because schools buy them (probably on accident at this point).

b) All of those, for lack of better words, are older players. Retired, working, deceased, and working is not exactly a glowing recommendation for dependent. I don't think we can diminish their contribution to bass trombonedom, but we can also recognize that they probably grew up with dependent and never changed.

You can like dependent all you want, but the evidence is that it's largely obsolete.
</QUOTE>

Aidan, sorry, I wasn't totally clear.

a) referred to the other statement that more or less the only dependent in demand was the King which is not true.

b) I agree with you that there are not many examples of younger players. but still these guys showed that practically everything can be played on a dependent horn and it's not a substantial limitation. I am just against the original statement that more or less said dependents are for new bass players only.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-07 2:24 p.m.

I'd say it's more like "professionals do not choose dependent horns in the modern day, almost as a rule."

I say this as someone that learned on dependent and has owned several great dependent horns.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-07 2:50 p.m.

Dependent horns are great for doublers like me. I don't use bass enough to worry about using the rotors independently. And if it gets the second valve mostly out of the way, great.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-07 3:12 p.m.

There were good reasons to choose a dependent when the valves were bad, but now that modern valves are great, IMO there is not really a good reason to choose dependent unless the D valve is removable like on the Yamaha 822. And even then, that's a very specific use case.

The only real thing you can't do on an indy that you can do on a deepy (I decided just now that "deepy" is my new shorthand for dependent, because it's cute) is to pre-load the D valve, and that's not really something worth losing the utility of the G/Gb valve for. Otherwise you can just play an indy like a deepy if you don't care to use the 2nd valve alone, but you still have the Gb valve available for when you absolutely need it - e.g. the slow, exposed Gb to Eb gliss in Frank Ticheli's Angels in the Architecture.

Anyway, back to the original purpose of the thread: I think dependent offset Hagmanns are not only the best-looking dependent design, but the best-looking trombones there are. They are gorgeous! Almost makes me wish I played on dependents so I could have one of those and get to look at it every day. But maybe if the thumb valve was Gb instead of F...

CBlair · by **CBlair** » 2024-12-07 4:54 p.m.

It seems that many dependent basses, new and refurbished, have split triggers. Talking with a friend from high school who switched to bass in college, she later developed wrist/hand issues with the second valve lever and ending up quitting altogether.

Is that much of a thing?

Much contemporary writing appears designed to challenge bass trombonists more and more. It's amazing what can be done, altho well-played technically challenging material does not necessarily translate into enjoyable, listenable music to my ears.

I just got my Elkhart Conn 73H serviced and it works as well as ever. The set-up makes sense to my brain. It's more than adequate for my purposes and the repertoire I play. My thumb is up to the double duty task. So I realize, tho not professional by a long shot, I am in that older group and probably too set to change.

Having said that, if I were starting over, or had infinite resources today, I would buy a shiny new independent because they look cool, and that should not be underestimated for how it inspires one's playing.

A retro look can work pretty well, too.

CBlair

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-12-07 5:04 p.m.

[quote="CBlair"]It seems that many dependent basses, new and refurbished, have split triggers. Talking with a friend from high school who switched to bass in college, she later developed wrist/hand issues with the second valve lever and ending up quitting altogether.

Is that much of a thing?[/quote]

Yup, it is. Hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder - you name it. That's why there are straps, bullet braces, rest bars and whatnot.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2024-12-07 5:11 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'd say it's more like "professionals do not choose dependent horns in the modern day, almost as a rule."

I say this as someone that learned on dependent and has owned several great dependent horns.[/quote]

To say you and I see very different things in the trombone world (not just this) is likely an understatement. However, while it's very obvious independent is vastly preferred, personally I have had the number of requests for dependent horns increase quite a bit over the last few years. This is also verified by any time I list one of my personal used horns that are not only dependent, but F/Eb dependent, they sell within a day or two. This is as a premium price as well.

Moral of the story, the "Ass for every seat" principle is going strong, even in the trombone world.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-07 5:34 p.m.

I'll bet a significant portion of those players are either older or can't get their dependent horn from an existing boutique (because they stopped making them).

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-12-07 5:41 p.m.

Slightly off topic: I’m an independent player, but I’ve played a couple of dependent horns, some for several months, and others play-tested. If I had more patience (and money), I would buy one.

To me, the primary advantage of dependent over independent is the difference in sound and response. I think it’s easier to get a consistent, stable sound with a dependent horn because you have about 3” of tapered tubing at the distal end of the neckpipe. On indy horns, that taper is replaced by the second valve. That taper in that spot makes the difference, I believe.

Why and how that area of taper is so critical is a question for the makers. I don’t suppose anyone here is willing to share their recipe for the secret sauce of neckpipe tapers…?

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2024-12-07 5:49 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'll bet a significant portion of those players are either older or can't get their dependent horn from an existing boutique (because they stopped making them).[/quote]

Some are older, some are in their 20's. There's a lot of interest among younger players (albeit interest doesn't entirely translate to sales).

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-12-07 5:58 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]Slightly off topic: I’m an independent player, but I’ve played a couple of dependent horns, some for several months, and others play-tested. If I had more patience (and money), I would buy one.

To me, the primary advantage of dependent over independent is the difference in sound and response. I think it’s easier to get a consistent, stable sound with a dependent horn because you have about 3” of tapered tubing at the distal end of the neckpipe. On indy horns, that taper is replaced by the second valve. That taper in that spot makes the difference, I believe.

Why and how that area of taper is so critical is a question for the makers. I don’t suppose anyone here is willing to share their recipe for the secret sauce of neckpipe tapers…?[/quote]

I was going to comment something along these lines. Consider that the crook is around the same span and the difference of material even with the same bore size is considered important by anyone even remotely sensitive to equipment differences.

It's not enough of a difference that I'm going to give up my indy valve, but I'm also not a pro. If I were, there's a decent chance I'd probably have one as my default and rule it out if I was going to be using the 2nd valve independently. There is a ton of rep that really doesn't require a 2nd valve. Like, almost all of the traditional orchestral rep can easily be done with a dependent valve.

MrHCinDE · 2024-12-07 6:02 p.m.

In terms of sound my Holton TR-180 with its side-by-side valves is great, but the ergonomics could be better, despite the modernized trigger setup (similar linkages to the Shires earlier in this thread). If I played more bass I’d be looking out for a different valve setup so as much as I love the horn in general, I can‘t say the Holton has a great valve section design, neither did the Yanaha 612Rii I had before it. The valves themselves were mechanically excellent on the Yamaha but still was a bit too much mass applying torque away from the hand brace I think. The Reynolds Contempora before that was also uncomfortable, I‘m lucky I didn‘t damage my wrist with that one, though it was a lot of fun to play.

I like the sound of the M&W setup if I had unlimited funds.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2024-12-07 7:17 p.m.

[quote="LIBrassCo"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="260687" time="1733610841" user_id="3131">
I'll bet a significant portion of those players are either older or can't get their dependent horn from an existing boutique (because they stopped making them).[/quote]

Some are older, some are in their 20's. There's a lot of interest among younger players (albeit interest doesn't entirely translate to sales).
</QUOTE>

Can't argue with a burger since it's always right.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-07 7:18 p.m.

[quote="Thrawn22"]<QUOTE author="LIBrassCo" post_id="260691" time="1733611767" user_id="4931">

Some are older, some are in their 20's. There's a lot of interest among younger players (albeit interest doesn't entirely translate to sales).[/quote]

Can't argue with a burger since it's always right.
</QUOTE>

:roll:

Elow · by **Elow** » 2024-12-07 7:47 p.m.

I don’t know a single player my age (college) using a dependent bass… I loved the Greenhoe version of the 62H I played at ITF. I wouldn’t use it at all, the rep I play has been composed with F/Gb independent setup in mind. I just recorded a piece for a competition, mordents all throughout the first and third movements. Unplayable with a dependent setup. I will link the video to this once results are out if this topic is still active. I used my second valve for most the mordents.

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2024-12-07 8:19 p.m.

[quote="Elow"]I don’t know a single player my age (college) using a dependent bass… I loved the Greenhoe version of the 62H I played at ITF. I wouldn’t use it at all, the rep I play has been composed with F/Gb independent setup in mind. I just recorded a piece for a competition, mordents all throughout the first and third movements. Unplayable with a dependent setup. I will link the video to this once results are out if this topic is still active. I used my second valve for most the mordents.[/quote]

I'd love to see the piece, yet to run into something that is truly unplayable.

ZacharyThornton · by **ZacharyThornton** » 2024-12-07 10:45 p.m.

This is such an old, boring topic. Luckily, the consumers have answered the question. And in capitalism, they make the decisions.

GGJazz · by **GGJazz** » 2024-12-07 11:11 p.m.

Hi all.

Backing to the OP , I find the M&W dependent rotors the best among the horns showed above .It is a marvellous bass trombone !

About the dependent /independent choice , I personally am playing a dependent horn ( King Duo Gravis).

I started with a single valve bass , a Olds George Roberts model . Then I moved to an independent one , a King 8B . I worked deeply on the technics you can develop with two independent valves ; and I have to say that one can play things that on a dependent horn results near impossible to perform .

Anyway , I think that on the "real life" , you will play such difficult things just few times , unless you are a full - time soloist of classical or contemporary music .

I am a pro , playing Jazz , both in Big Band and in 4et/5et as soloist , etc , so I find a dependent horn perfect for what I have to perform . It' s a bit challenging sometimes , but also with a dependent horn you can play very tricky passages.

I find the dependent horn more open , responsive , and more trombone- like sounding .

Of course , I still have my independent horn , if some situations would request it .

Regards

Giancarlo

SamBTbrn · by **SamBTbrn** » 2024-12-08 2:52 a.m.

Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing.

Tooloud · by **Tooloud** » 2024-12-08 4:04 a.m.

Over the years I owned and played three double valve dependent bass trombones:

Yamaha 612 R: side by side valve design, split triggers: Long ago, memory may decieve me, but I do not remember

anything negative or obtrusive on this trombone. Worked as it was supposed to do. The side by side design caused no change in sound once the valve were engaged. Weight distribution was no issue since the instrument was light.

Bach LT 50 B2 L: A real dog! Terrible weight distribution, caused a lot of pain in the wrist, so that i had to support my left wrist with an orthopedic strap. The sound was not convincing at all, but this may have been due to problems of holding this thing up. Had to go rather quickly because it had other mechanical issues that had nothing to do with the setup as such. The rather small valves required very careful embouchure work to iron out the sound changing from open horn to valves no matter if one or two valves were used.

XO 1242 RL: My horn since 2016. I was at the dealership for testing an other bass, went home with the XO because the sound blew me away - the one I went there for was an independent setup - I think Yamaha IIRC, could just not compete. The XO is a clone of the Conn 62H, just mechanically improved with larger valves and larger overall bore. Of course I have to work to get the sound with an without valves close to one another, but no real issue. The double valve tones are just great: I am practising for the "Ring" (standing in - yeehaa!), "Rheingold" coming up with a lot of double valve and pedal notes an the 62H design works fine.

But: The handling is a problem. The instrument is heavy, very heavy. As soon as I had bought it I had both a thumb rest and a "Handrückenstütze" - I don't know the english word - installed. Due to the design the second valve is rather far away form the neck causing a lot of weight dragging the instrument to the left an down. But I think the sound depends on the massive weight, too. So I accept this issue.

If I can manage a day off I want to try a used version of this model but as an independent Thayer setup. Played this some years ago at a shop for just some minutes and the impression was like holding a dinosaur on the shoulder while blowing it up. But I like the idea of having two versions of the same instrument with just a different valve setup - offset rotors vs. independent Thayers.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-08 8:42 a.m.

[quote="SamBTbrn"]Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing.[/quote]

I think the program is that people with a strong idea about this will mostly all be on indie setups.

For my money the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis (with split triggers) are the best.

SamBTbrn · by **SamBTbrn** » 2024-12-08 10:23 a.m.

[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="SamBTbrn" post_id="260722" time="1733644346" user_id="17128">
Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing. NJ[/quote]

I think the program is that people with a strong idea about this will mostly all be on indie setups.

For my money the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis (with split triggers) are the best.
</QUOTE>

And why the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis? What makes them the best in your opinion?

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-12-08 1:28 p.m.

[quote="SamBTbrn"]Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before...[/quote]

Apologies. Didn’t mean to derail the thread.

Does adding the valve further along the F bend/crook like LIBrass’s or the Hagmann independent setups make a difference? What about wraps that place the crook assemblies on different sides of the bell, like many indy wraps? (I’m sure someone will chime in to say, “It depends on what you’re used to playing!”)

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-08 1:55 p.m.

[quote="SamBTbrn"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="260730" time="1733665332" user_id="3642">

I think the program is that people with a strong idea about this will mostly all be on indie setups.

For my money the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis (with split triggers) are the best.[/quote]

And why the Edwards 502D and King duo gravis? What makes them the best in your opinion?
</QUOTE>

Well, I really like Edwards valves, and the thing plays like a dream. The compression is just right. Add in the options with the harmonic pillars and it's a no brainer. Unfortunately I did not buy one when they were being made, and I don't think many exist ...

The King bass is it's own animal. Nothing else plays like it. You either like it or you don't, I guess.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2024-12-08 10:47 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.[/quote]
The old Elkhart 62H is pretty highly sought after as well.

u_2bobone · by **u_2bobone** » 2024-12-09 12:01 a.m.

I think I've made my obsession with the King Duo Gravis SS very clear through many posts and I won't even address my distain for split trigger conversions, but I'd like to mention something that no one has addressed at this point. It is the useful presence of the different blow when incorporating both valves on the dependent DGSS. On many occasions I gladly used that trait to add a depth of sound that is unobtainable on the "F" valve alone. I know that having valves respond with no additional resistance or color change compared to an open horn is a sort of "Holy Grail" and is to be coveted ---- but ----- has anyone out there embraced those slight differences and incorporated them into their general playing style ?

I think KBiggs is onto something with this statement : "To me, the primary advantage of dependent over independent is the difference in sound and response. I think it’s easier to get a consistent, stable sound with a dependent horn because you have about 3” of tapered tubing at the distal end of the neckpipe. On indy horns, that taper is replaced by the second valve. That taper in that spot makes the difference, I believe."

I also alternated my DGSS with a King 8B independent and totally agree. I think a dependent setup is not a drawback but a feature to be exploited. Anybody else ?

Tooloud · by **Tooloud** » 2024-12-09 10:03 a.m.

[quote="2bobone"]I think KBiggs is onto something with this statement : "To me, the primary advantage of dependent over independent is the difference in sound and response. I think it’s easier to get a consistent, stable sound with a dependent horn because you have about 3” of tapered tubing at the distal end of the neckpipe. On indy horns, that taper is replaced by the second valve. That taper in that spot makes the difference, I believe."

I also alternated my DGSS with a King 8B independent and totally agree. I think a dependent setup is not a drawback but a feature to be exploited. Anybody else ?[/quote]

Sure! See my post above!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-12-09 10:22 a.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]I'm sure this won't be a popular opinion, but the best dependent bass is the Duo Gravis. It's the only one that is meaninfully different, the only one that people actually ask for.

Dependent horns are ok as long as you're a new bass player or never have an urge to use the second lever by itself. As soon as you want to use it, you can't go back. It's ok, there's no shame in avoiding the second lever by itself. Lots of people made a career on dependent bass. So what? You play a few more 5th positions.[/quote]
Not true in my opinion. I have 2 inline horns and 2 dependent horns. I can switch effortlessly. Never missed a note because I hit the wrong valve.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-12-09 10:25 a.m.

Similar to Bill, I regularly switch between dependent and independent, with no issues. I also never had any issues when I had Independent contra in the mix, as well.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-09 10:30 a.m.

[quote="SamBTbrn"]Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing.[/quote] I'm honestly not sure the valve distance and configuration matters nearly as much as the overall bracing structure and weight of the bell section. And of course, ERGONOMICS. Thankfully due to my yamaha addiction I don't have to worry about adjusting to different trigger designs.

I can say I've never really noticed a real difference between the stacked 612RII I have and the Doug Yeo model, which has the insert-style second valve in terms of change in blow or feel. As with any dependent (or independent) system with more tubing involved, the response changes. All I can say is that it is probably one of the best implementations of a slot in valve for a dependent system that I have ever seen, and the ergonomics of the valves are great.

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-12-09 11:09 a.m.

Sorry for deviating from the actual question before and going into the dependent vs. independent discussion.

So reg dependent designs. Somehow I generally like the elegance that most dependents have. I personally find them somehow visually more appealing than independents ;-)

I think I have seen two in the past (not in real life, but probably hear on the forum) that had two different valve types involved. Obviously custom. I think both were with a regular rotor as first and one with a Thayer and the other with a Meinlschmidt Radial Flow (?) as second valve. That might be interesting. You keep the playing and resistance of the "open" horn mostly original and add as little resistance as possible by adding the second valve.

Ergonomically it might be a little less favorable as these larger valves are heavier.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2024-12-09 11:43 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I'll bet a significant portion of those players are either older or can't get their dependent horn from an existing boutique (because they stopped making them).[/quote]
This bolded part I'd believe - custom builders probably sell a relatively high number of dependent basses now that there's not as many off-the-shelf options for dependent.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-09 12:10 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]This bolded part I'd believe - custom builders probably sell a relatively high number of dependent basses now that there's not as many off-the-shelf options for dependent.[/quote] Also, as we have seen, if you are an artist like Bill Reichenbach, you can get Schilke / Greenhoe to make you a dependent horn.

mrdeacon · by **mrdeacon** » 2024-12-09 12:37 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]<QUOTE author="spencercarran" post_id="260850" time="1733762613" user_id="10390">This bolded part I'd believe - custom builders probably sell a relatively high number of dependent basses now that there's not as many off-the-shelf options for dependent.[/quote] Also, as we have seen, if you are an artist like Bill Reichenbach, you can get Schilke / Greenhoe to make you a dependent horn.
</QUOTE>
I mean… it’s offered as a stock option on their website. I think the only custom manufacturer not offering dependent valve sections as an option period is Edwards. Schilke and Rath usually have at least 1 dependent bass at trade shows.

The catch is that if you place an order with Rath, Shires or Schilke you’ll have to special order one and it’ll take 6 months or a year plus to receive since they aren’t on the regular production schedule.

RJMason · by **RJMason** » 2024-12-09 1:02 p.m.

Maybe not the best design? But I bought an old Yamaha 612 and had it upgraded with some levers and leadpipe from the 830, added a screw collar, and it plays really quite well. D and Eb attachments. All for less than half the price of a custom boutique dependent…think I was $2400 all in.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-12-09 3:05 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="MStarke" post_id="260663" time="1733596790" user_id="4208">

In my opinion both of these paragraphs don't make sense.

a) People ask at least as much for old Conn 62h and similar setups as well as e g modern Greenhoe, M and W etc dependent setups

b) I have played independent for quite some years, but went back to primarily playing dependent today. all the dependent horns I owned in the past and today had something I preferred over the independent ones. And that minor loss of flexibility is not a real issue at least for me. And as I am certainly not the best reference, think about Bill Reichenbach, John Rojak, Phil Teele, Dave Taylor and many more who play or played dependent for the larger part of their careers
[/quote]

a) I don't think this is true. The big makers (Edwards and Shires) have cut the dependent models from their lineups entirely. I think if we asked Matt, a vast majority of his valve builds would be independent. The only reason Conn and Bach still have them at all is because schools buy them (probably on accident at this point).

b) All of those, for lack of better words, are older players. Retired, working, deceased, and working is not exactly a glowing recommendation for dependent. I don't think we can diminish their contribution to bass trombonedom, but we can also recognize that they probably grew up with dependent and never changed.

You can like dependent all you want, but the evidence is that it's largely obsolete.
</QUOTE>

FU with the older crap. I've heard some wonderful young players who have chosen the dependent setup.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-12-09 3:30 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]b) All of those, for lack of better words, are older players. Retired, working, deceased, and working is not exactly a glowing recommendation for dependent. I don't think we can diminish their contribution to bass trombonedom, but we can also recognize that they probably grew up with dependent and never changed.

You can like dependent all you want, but the evidence is that it's largely obsolete.[/quote]

FU with the older crap. I've heard some wonderful young players who have chosen the dependent setup.

[/quote]

Bill is right. Aidan's posts are appearing increasingly ageist, and it's annoying me. I'm older than Bill is, but quite pleased to still be playing the trombone at an acceptable level. And I'm still independent! (Since my bass trombone only has one valve! :horror: )

This post was intended to be discussing dependent bass trombone design options, not a diatribe about how all dependent basses are obsolete and their advocates are gravebound and irrelevant.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-09 3:37 p.m.

Facts are facts, sorry guys. Again, you can like whatever tuning you want (singles, anyone?), and obviously people make it work of all ages. But not many.

boneagain · by **boneagain** » 2024-12-09 4:25 p.m.

I found characteristics like Bob found with my King SS DG.

Over the course of my few years in his shop, George McCracken shared a number of his thoughts about his general design philosphy. Two points which apply to the question from the OP are: symmetry and fluidic flow.

When George talked about symmetry he referred to the placement of impedences in the sound path. On Horn this meant using TWO change valves where many only used one.

When George talked about placement of impedences he was concerned with changes of direction in the sound path. He was most especially talking about sharp changes of direction, such as those in each valve.

George tried larger cores to reduce the sharp direction changes in the DG, but Alan Raph was not satisfied with "fup" noises in valve slurs. George and Alan settled for something larger in diameter than was normal at the time, but small than ideal.

George also placed the 2nd valve as close to the 1st to take out just one more change in direction. He reduced change in direction more by the long horn style loops heading to and from the valves.

Alan had tried the other independents available at the time. He did not like the way they responded. This was a large part of his efforts to have King put someone on the "double valve project." Alan DID like the way his King responded.

Like Bob, Alan also had access to the other King basses. The Duo Gravis was the one he stuck with the most. That was true even though there was an 8B on the cover of his method book :)

To me, Matt's tight coupling of the dependent valves is a lovely update of the couplings that showed up on the Reynolds and then Duo Gravis.

I will admit, though, that I could only really tell the difference in playing on relatively slow stuff where I was very focused on tone. Lucky for me, I got LOTS of opportunities to dwell on the "big, beautiful sound" (that was what Gordon Halberg used to tell me to strive for at the start of every lesson...)

PS: I don't believe neck tapers play much into the question of the OP, but since it was raised, George was VERY committed to maintaining that. He did experimental stuff with Art Benade at Case Western that showed empirically that the more gradual taper DOES make a difference. It mattered enough that (at least on the original Duo Gravis) the insides of the inner tuning slide were drawn TAPERED. This gave a continuing taper all the way from the valve out the bell. The rate of taper changed, but was still reasonably in line with the "ideal" Bessel function taper George used in drafting the mandrel for the bell.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-12-09 4:38 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Facts are facts, sorry guys. Again, you can like whatever tuning you want (singles, anyone?), and obviously people make it work of all ages. But not many.[/quote]

You're shifting the subject they are referring to. They are calling you out on constantly deriding people older than you. It's a noticeable bias. That line has to get pushed further and further out. Some day you're going to be on the other side of it, and I hope you find people with as little equitable tolerance as you display at times. Your comment about Friedman was inexcusable, and I think there are several people that aren't going to be able to forgive you for that for a while.

I do agree that I prefer indy over dependent and duals over singles.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-09 4:59 p.m.

No comment about Jay here. But I am NOT denigrating old players in this thread. Guess what? Good Indy horns didn't exist when players above a certain age were developing on bass trombone. So some of them stuck with dependent. And that's fine!

I no longer think that is the case, and the math checks out. Almost everyone below a certain age (and a vast majority of modern students) play independent.

Again... Not a quality statement on those that came before, just a generational change.

Did the single players feel attacked when the world moved to dependent doubles? I hope not.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-09 5:27 p.m.

One real advantage of being on dependent is that you have some really great vintage horns to choose from - much more than the indy crowd. The Duo Gravis has come up a few times in this thread, and they do play and sound great (especially in SS form). I have also played a fabulous Elkhart 62H with a sound to die for. In both cases the dependent setup was a dealbreaker for me, but if I played dependents I would have no reason to go looking for a new horn when that 62H already exists.

On indy, there are much fewer world-class vintage horns out there. Mine was originally a single (1963 72H) that was modified to be independent. But modded horns are a rabbit hole many players have no interest in, so for them the choice is mostly between modern horns.

But at the end of the day, independents becoming vastly more popular than dependents did not happen by accident. Indy is just the better design overall and its mass adoption and standardization is easy proof of that. Consider how the F contrabass trombone went straight to indy...would you want a dependent F contra? I sure wouldn't.

[quote="SamBTbrn"]Yes, I was really hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about indi vs dep and which is better. We've had that before... But more about valve placement, distance between valves, wrap design and bore sizes etc. what effect do they have and which is the best design for optimal playing.[/quote]

I'm not sure there is an ideal placement and distance of offline valves. For an independent horn you want the neckpipe after the valves to be as long as possible, so you generally want the valves as close together and as close to the slide receiver as possible. For dependents, since the circuit that the second valve drops into is (usually) all cylindrical tubing, I suspect the only real effect of placing the 2nd valve in different locations is weight balance, which is why I would tend to think offset (rather than vertically stacked) is the better option. You can even put the 2nd valve in the F loop tuning slide (the "bird's nest" setup) so that you can easily swap out to another tuning slide without a valve. The only downside there is the more complicated linkage.

Wrap design also really only affects weight balance unless you're trying to make an extremely silly wrap, which is why I think all dependent bass designs should strive to have wraps as pretty as the wraps on dependent Hagmanns.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-12-09 5:53 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]No comment about Jay here. :amazed:[/quote]
It's about time ... that you explained your previous comment! We're still waiting.

But I am NOT denigrating old players in this thread. :horror:

Guess what? Good Indy horns didn't exist when players above a certain age were developing on bass trombone. So some of them stuck with dependent. And that's fine!

I no longer think that is the case, and the math checks out. Almost everyone below a certain age (and a vast majority of modern students) play independent.

Again, Aidan, you're purposely avoiding the topic of this thread, which is not whether independents are better than dependents, but - (for those [probably older, retired, perhaps senile] obsolete trombonists [whom you have willfully dismissed as being irrelevant] who are still interested) - what are some interesting configurations for dependent bass trombones and which configuration is "best?"

Did the single players feel attacked when the world moved to dependent doubles? I hope not.

They weren't "feeling attacked" - perhaps because no one attacked them then as being "largely obsolete."

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-09 7:49 p.m.

I drive a manual car. I love it, it's a blast to drive and I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. That doesn't change the fact that the market has decided manuals are obsolete and a vanishingly small portion of vehicles sold today are manual.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-12-09 8:39 p.m.

I've played A LOT of bass trombones in my life, and one of the very best EVER was a Holton 185 with the dependent D valve on the F valve tuning slide. Ideal? Absolutely not. But boy howdy did that horn play.

I think my favorite Yamaha bass trombone - or at least the one I think responds the best - is the 620G with the dependent valves side-by-side.

In my experience, dependent axial valve sections ALWAYS respond better than independent axial sections, all other components and the valves themselves being the same. For that reason I chose dependent axials for the first Shires bass trombone I bought back in the late 90s.

Then for a few years I played dependent Shires rotors, in the same configuration Matt likes and uses on his instruments. I find that dependent rotary valve sections play bigger and wider than independent valve sections (again, all else being equal) on the open horn, but that independent rotors actually make the response of the instrument more equal between open, one valve, and two valves.

Then I switched to TruBore valves. Dependent TruBores play GREAT, but so do independent, and the difference is smaller than with axial valves, so I switched back to independent valves and stuck with it as I've now gone back to rotary valves generally (Greenhoes at the moment).

I do love a good single valve bass though. Having the option of going lighter in that specific way is great, especially if your jobs, like mine, are usually in symphonic orchestras. YMMV.

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-12-09 9:50 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I drive a manual car. I love it, it's a blast to drive and I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. That doesn't change the fact that the market has decided manuals are obsolete and a vanishingly small portion of vehicles sold today are manual.[/quote]

I'm guessing this would be your response to a topic that asked:

What is the best configuration of a manual transmission?

4 speed? 5-speed? Floor-mounted shifter? Column-mounted shifter?

Why waste the time discussing the topic when you can divert by answering the unasked question by saying manual transmissions are obsolete, and people who use them must be older, retired, or otherwise out of touch?

Are you secretly practicing to be a politician or a lawyer?

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-09 10:07 p.m.

Yes, it is my bad for barging in like that.

hornbuilder · by **hornbuilder** » 2024-12-09 10:30 p.m.

"the insides of the inner tuning slide were drawn TAPERED. This gave a continuing taper all the way from the valve out the bell. The rate of taper changed, but was still reasonably in line with the "ideal" Bessel function taper George used in drafting the mandrel for the bell."

This is a given, as far as my designs are concerned.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-12-09 10:51 p.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]Facts are facts, sorry guys. Again, you can like whatever tuning you want (singles, anyone?), and obviously people make it work of all ages. But not many.[/quote]

It's not what you say it's how you say it. But you've always been like that. Little quips with very little respect for anyone who's been there ahead of you.

MrHCinDE · by **MrHCinDE** » 2024-12-10 2:58 a.m.

Sifting through the posts about which is the best dependent setup, is it fair to say that the DG, Elkhart 62h, Shires, Edwards, LI Brassco, Yamaha and Holton variants have some love, the Bach and modern Conn less so?

Even though a majority of elite students and performers choose independent, I would say the vast majority of bass trombonists in the world don’t fit into those categories so it’s great that there’s still a big range of used and new options with dependent setups.

I’ve enjoyed reading the posts here about the comparisons between dependent models. Perhaps more of those who don’t primarily play dependent setups would be kind enough to share the experience on the best and worse dependent horns they’ve played in the past?

MStarke · by **MStarke** » 2024-12-10 3:39 a.m.

All this back and forth reg independent vs dependent made me think which players I know that play dependent.

The last years I have frequently played with two good professional players who both play dependent horns. One a Bach, the other a Holton (don't know the model number). I know that in the German jazz and bigband scene dependents are very popular. Multiple old Conns and others and I think also at least one of those dependent Leuchter (Fuchs?) models. This includes from my knowledge 3 out of the 4 bass trombonists from the German radio big bands. One of them is a few years younger than me so definitely doesn't fall in that "old guy" schema that has been brought up. Also many of the jazz freelancers seem to play dependents. Admittedly one reason could be that a nice used 62h still costs far less than a new boutique horn.

My guess: The minimal limitation that comes from the dependent setup is far less relevant for these people than the response, resonance and sound that some of these horns have. And yes, I believe that these aspects have to do with the valve setup.

Regarding literature there are certainly examples - Finetales mentioned one I think - that are only really playable with independents, but they are very very few. I cannot remember I personally ever came into that situation. Sometimes it's handy yes. E.g. at the beginning of the Alpine symphony there is a soft slur from middle Db to low Bb which is easy using the second valve. But it can also be played e.g. with 5th position to 1st valve and low 3rd position if you want to reduce slide movement.

Also making the link back to the design aspect: Most of/all these horns have more or less normal rotors, many in that Elkhart 62h side-by-side setup. Certainly not the most open, but it seems to work.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-10 6:28 a.m.

I've had passages show up on my stand that required an independent 2nd valve to execute as written many times. I think that Ticheli example in my last comment is by far the most common example, as that piece is standard concert band repertoire. But I've come across plenty of others over the years. And then on top of that, countless passages that don't REQUIRE an indy, but are made much easier with one.

Having said that, I also spent a year playing all kinds of hard modern bass rep on a stock single 72H. You can make anything work if you really want to, it's just down to how much you care about making bass trombone slide movements easier. Playing that single was a workout! And I've run into many passages that would be a workout on a dependent too.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-12-10 7:36 a.m.

I do love a good single valve bass though. Having the option of going lighter in that specific way is great, especially if your jobs, like mine, are usually in symphonic orchestras. YMMV.

I am so glad you did, that single section you sold me is unbelievable.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-12-10 7:41 a.m.

I'll say this about the dependent setup. Dave Taylor has played virtually everything ever written and still continues to perform all over the world using a dependent setup. I've never heard him complain about it.

Angus Butt sounds ridiculous on a dependent setup. Does he ever play independent-I honestly don't know as I'm only going on what I see.

As far as designs I'll get back on track later-I've played/tried almost everything to date except for some euro makers.

Off to work soon.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-12-10 8:50 a.m.

The history of the double valve bass is they started as an easy way to do the "E Pull", so it was built in F/flat E. This setup is good for the Bartok Gliss since you can start in b7 with two valves, switch to one, come to 1st, slide to b7, and add the 2nd valve.

Then we discovered that the 2nd valve in Eb made for a lot more choices and put low C and low B in more accessible positions.

Then we discovered that an independent with F and either G or Gb (giving Eb or D) had even more possibilities.

Older players have grown up using all of these options.

Younger players started on Independent and never tried anything else.

Any of these setups can work.

Location of the valves doesn't seem to make a big difference in sound, although the direction of rotor rotation can make a difference in feel.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-12-10 9:19 a.m.

Younger players started on Independent and never tried anything else.

I don't think that's quite true. There are still a lot of schools that have single valve or dependent basses. My HS had an Elkhart... I want to say 62 single valve that I played on, then the university I went to had a YBL622, then I bought a Duo Gravis b/c that's what I could afford. Both the HS and university both have those same instruments now.

My experience is not all that unique (I guess I'm not exactly young anymore but I'm not old either :lol: ). I know at least a few younger players who are on dependents, although they would realistically prefer independent, but the prices on pre-owned dependents is so much more favorable. It's a much smaller market for new horns, and if you "only" had 8k to drop on a horn, you wouldn't necessarily want to buy a dependent since they're typically the same price new if - as noted by those here - you really thought you needed the independent for the additional technical facility it provided.

Thrawn22 · by **Thrawn22** » 2024-12-10 1:48 p.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="260865" time="1733776670" user_id="3131">
Facts are facts, sorry guys. Again, you can like whatever tuning you want (singles, anyone?), and obviously people make it work of all ages. But not many.[/quote]

It's not what you say it's how you say it. But you've always been like that. Little quips with very little respect for anyone who's been there ahead of you.
</QUOTE>

Yes. Speaking in absolutes is what gets burgers inedible.

Elow · by **Elow** » 2024-12-10 3:47 p.m.

Geez, the bashing needs to be toned down. Just straight uncalled for personal attacks. Agree to disagree and leave it

ZacharyThornton · by **ZacharyThornton** » 2024-12-10 6:05 p.m.

This forum is only useful to sell things anymore. Soon it won’t even be good for that.

fwbassbone · by **fwbassbone** » 2024-12-10 7:02 p.m.

I learned on a dependent back in the mid 70's. I switched to independent in the mid 80's. Then back to dependent. Then back to independent. You get the idea. I was recently told by a much younger player that I should learn more indy technique. I asked him why and he had no answer so there you go. Play what feels best and gets the job done. BTW, I now have 3 bass trombones, 2 indys and a single.

Aznguyy · by **Aznguyy** » 2024-12-10 11:25 p.m.

[quote="ZacharyThornton"]This forum is only useful to sell things anymore. Soon it won’t even be good for that.[/quote]

Truth…

Mertelstein · by **Mertelstein** » 2024-12-11 5:31 a.m.

Another +1 for the DG here. I absolutely adore it. Sure it's not appropriate for many settings, but it really is as others have said its own animal and when it's the right horn, there is really nothing like it. I love the original trigger set-up too - it just "works" for me.

That said: on Aidan's point about dependents (or deepys - I liked that!) being more or less obsolete, I'd suggest this is another case of the UK and the US being divided by a common language...in the military bands in the UK, from casual observation, dependents are by far more prevalent than independents, so they do still have life in one small part of the world!

Mertelstein · by **Mertelstein** » 2024-12-11 5:34 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I drive a manual car. I love it, it's a blast to drive and I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. That doesn't change the fact that the market has decided manuals are obsolete and a vanishingly small portion of vehicles sold today are manual.[/quote]

Hah - re my previous comment, this is another one of the UK vs US situation! If you want an automatic in the UK you'd best be paying over the odds. Manuals still rule the roost over there!

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-12-11 8:55 a.m.

[quote="Elow"]Geez, the bashing needs to be toned down. Just straight uncalled for personal attacks. Agree to disagree and leave it[/quote]

Then people need to stay on topic and stop being completely disrespectful. It's obvious if you read the posts.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-11 9:25 a.m.

[quote="ZacharyThornton"]This forum is only useful to sell things anymore. Soon it won’t even be good for that.[/quote]

I mean .... This forum has never been TTF. There used to be lots of working pros on that forum. The language and fighting used to be higher, too. Worse than it has ever been here.

You sure you're not confusing this forum with TTF? This one never had what TTF had, from the getgo, including the genuinely bad fights and derogatory language.

This forum is a tame kitten by comparison.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-11 9:57 a.m.

[quote="Mertelstein"]Another +1 for the DG here. I absolutely adore it. Sure it's not appropriate for many settings, but it really is as others have said its own animal and when it's the right horn, there is really nothing like it. I love the original trigger set-up too - it just "works" for me.

That said: on Aidan's point about dependents (or deepys - I liked that!) being more or less obsolete, I'd suggest this is another case of the UK and the US being divided by a common language...in the military bands in the UK, from casual observation, dependents are by far more prevalent than independents, so they do still have life in one small part of the world![/quote]

I don't know many settings where a DG would be clearly inappropriate while a Conn/Bach/Edwards/Shires /Rath/M&W/Thein double would be clearly appropriate. DGs have been played in every setting. It's a matter of player and approach.

In a world where resources were unconstrained, I'd have at least 3 basses. I'd have an in-line, because in the solo lit, the brass band lit, and the brass quintet lit the technical facility wins. I'd also have a dependent, because even a short neckpipe can that can be tapered helps with intonation and response. In most of the wind band and orchestral lit the technical facility isn't necessary. We just don't see parts that look like they were snatch'd from a Kopprasch etude or somewhere in Arban's. Finally, I'd have an old-style tenor-bass (single), like a Bach 45/46 or a King Symphony 2B or the Conn equivalent, for the once-in-a-lifetime things where someone calls me to play Milhaud's Creation of the World, or L'Histoire du Soldat, or the Octet, or even some 'lighter' orchestral rep (like Beethoven 5, if the section is downsizing, or Sibelius 7 and I'm going 'big' on the first part).

But resources are constrained, and this is my avocation rather than my profession. So I currently have two basses (both indies) and I really need to get rid of one, because it's a great instrument that deserves to be played by someone who will care for it. If I can only have one bass, it's going to be a double and it's going to be an indie. If someone calls me for one of the once-in-a-lifetime things, I'll do it on my Shires tenor or maybe on the Bach 36.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-12-11 10:15 a.m.

Harrison is 100% spot on. I've read through I think everything and I don't see anything here that is personal attack other than the possibly offhanded topic about burnt burgers :???: I don't really see any extreme opinions here either. At worst, an anecdotal observation that people who play dependents seem to skew older, which, if anything... the people mentioned here are people like Doug Yeo and Dave Taylor. I find it utterly impossible to think that comparing a group to the two of those people is anything other than an extreme positive. The respect for the two of them extends way beyond the low brass world.

If there is something that we should consider adding to the TOS, I'm all ears and anyone is welcome to open a meta ticket. I'm typically reasonably good at putting myself in other peoples' shoes and I just don't see anything here that would make me offended.

Regarding the utility of the forum: sometimes there's... just nothing to talk about. Maybe we'll get to a point where everything has been talked about. I don't see that as losing it's utility. I see that as having exhausted everything worth talking about and not filling the void with retreads. Unlike other places, this is globally indexed and archived for future posterity in a much more consumable format than other locations (including the old list serve, obviously TBF, Facebook groups, which are inaccessible, defunct, locked behind a portal, etc).

Back to the topic at hand:

Finally, I'd have an old-style tenor-bass (single), like a Bach 46 or a King 5B or the Conn equivalent, for the once-in-a-lifetime things where someone calls me to play Milhaud's Creation of the World, or L'Histoire du Soldat

I've actually played Creation twice :lol: But it was well over 10 years ago... I why would you want a small bass for that? Am I mis-remembering the part? If anything, my recollection would be that maybe even something a little smaller than a large bore would be appropriate given it's tessitura and that you're the only bone but... like I said it's been awhile

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-11 10:34 a.m.

[quote="Matt K"]

Back to the topic at hand:
<QUOTE> Finally, I'd have an old-style tenor-bass (single), like a Bach 46 or a King 5B or the Conn equivalent, for the once-in-a-lifetime things where someone calls me to play Milhaud's Creation of the World, or L'Histoire du Soldat[/quote]

I've actually played Creation twice :lol: But it was well over 10 years ago... I why would you want a small bass for that? Am I mis-remembering the part? If anything, my recollection would be that maybe even something a little smaller than a large bore would be appropriate given it's tessitura and that you're the only bone but... like I said it's been awhile
</QUOTE>

I've done Creation once. I'd love to do it again. It's one of those pieces that you have to have an F-attachment for. Milhaud wrote some glisses that are easily do-able with a valve and impossible to even fake credibly without one. When I played it, I did it on a 36B because it was what I had--and honestly that (or maybe a 3BF) is a great choice for the part. But it's a little ahistorical. Milhaud knew what he was doing, and so I have to assume that he had a tenor-bass in mind for the part.

It's like doing the Octet: a modern howitzer isn't what Stravinsky had in his ear, and frankly a modern C trumpet isn't a sound he would have heard, either. Small-bore C, please and a tenor-bass. A 78H or 36 (no B) on the tenor 'bone. Good luck finding an "A" trumpet. It's a great piece of music, and it sounds wonderful with the brass quartet on modern instruments. But if you're trying to be HIP about it...look back to more appropriate instruments. Flute, clarinet, and bassoon designs were pretty well dialed in by the 1920s so our woodwind friends don't have the What is HIP? issue for that period.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-11 10:40 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Elow" post_id="260972" time="1733863640" user_id="8680">
Geez, the bashing needs to be toned down. Just straight uncalled for personal attacks. Agree to disagree and leave it[/quote]

Then people need to stay on topic and stop being completely disrespectful. It's obvious if you read the posts.
</QUOTE>

Cite one spot where that's true.

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-12-11 10:41 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]<QUOTE author="WGWTR180" post_id="261052" time="1733925313" user_id="7573">

Then people need to stay on topic and stop being completely disrespectful. It's obvious if you read the posts.[/quote]

Cite one spot where that's true.
</QUOTE>
Not going there again. Others have backed me up.

Burgerbob · by **Burgerbob** » 2024-12-11 10:45 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]<QUOTE author="Burgerbob" post_id="261061" time="1733931656" user_id="3131">

Cite one spot where that's true.[/quote]
Not going there again. Others have backed me up.
</QUOTE>

I'm sorry, Bill, but not good enough. I'll admit I strayed us off topic (including this reply, sorry Erik), but I have not been disrespectful to "those who came before me" at any point here. Please let me know where I did.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-11 10:52 a.m.

[quote="Burgerbob"]I have not been disrespectful to "those who came before me" at any point here. Please let me know where I did.[/quote]

I've reread this thread several times. I can't find it. I'm very confused by the argument.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-11 11:09 a.m.

I guess as a sidebar would be whether there is a real benefit from a horn that can be tuned in both Bb/F/Eb and Bb/F/D. I have heard that in some cases certain players in the commercial / jazz side of things actually might prefer the Eb tuning with both valves engaged. I do have that option on one of my horns, but almost always keep it in Bb/F/D configuration, as I really don't want to learn yet another set of positions.

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-12-11 11:26 a.m.

I've done Creation once. I'd love to do it again. It's one of those pieces that you have to have an F-attachment for. Milhaud wrote some glisses that are easily do-able with a valve and impossible to even fake credibly without one. When I played it, I did it on a 36B because it was what I had--and honestly that (or maybe a 3BF) is a great choice for the part. But it's a little ahistorical. Milhaud knew what he was doing, and so I have to assume that he had a tenor-bass in mind for the part.

That makes sense. I think I did it on a medium bore once and a large bore the other time, but it's been way too long to remember with any degree of specificity. APologies though, I'm taking this far afield. I have questions but I should probably make them elsewhere :lol:

[quote="tbonesullivan"]I guess as a sidebar would be whether there is a real benefit from a horn that can be tuned in both Bb/F/Eb and Bb/F/D. I have heard that in some cases certain players in the commercial / jazz side of things actually might prefer the Eb tuning with both valves engaged. I do have that option on one of my horns, but almost always keep it in Bb/F/D configuration, as I really don't want to learn yet another set of positions.[/quote]

I have such an instrument (mine is independent, so Bb/F/G/Eb or Bb/F/Gb/D and technically I can pull both TS. I can't remember if it's Bb/E or Bb/bE/bF or whatever, but if I pull both tuning slides out I can get a convincing Db in almost first but obviously lose out on the utility of using them, well, independently for the most part.

What you are describing also circles around so-called "Bollinger" tuning, which technically wasn't invented by him to the best of my knowledge but he is obviously somewhat famous for using the tuning system b/c of a book he wrote on it. The basic idea is you want to keep your hand somewhere in the middle of the slide as much as possible for technical reasons, and tuning it a particular way (close to Bb/F/G/Eb or Bb/F/Eb) allows you to do so, though at the expense of having to farther out on the slide for other notes.

I keep mine with the G tuning b/c I like it better for using it also in the staff. Ironically, either way I almost never play either Eb or D with both triggers. I find pressing both at the same time to be more challenging ergonomically than merely moving the slide, so I do so when needed which is typically for Db and lower. If I were truly optimizing for below the staff, I would almost rather have some other kind of tuning like Bb/F/Db so that C and B natural would be in a closer position.

WGWTR180 · 2024-12-11 1:06 p.m.

:idk:

WGWTR180 · by **WGWTR180** » 2024-12-11 1:39 p.m.

So the title of this thread is Best Dependent Bass design.

1. SS Duo Gravis prototype #4: I owned this for quite a few years and made a decent amount of money with it. I loved many things about it and the valve section blew nicely. But in the end I sold it because I developed some left hand issues holding the instrument. So taking in the complete design valves good, ergonomics not good.

2. Various Elkhart 62Hs: In all honesty I never owned a good one BUT have played some really good ones. Conns blow differently than most other makers in general but I found that the 62H required some effort on my part to sound good on. I played a friend's once that I loved but when he started thinning the herd I could not afford to buy it. So is it the design I didn't get along with or was it me?? I heard a video a few years back with Angus Butt killing it on a 62H. I think he plays on another dependent setup now.

3. XL Dependent: I owned this for 2 weeks. Blew okay-didn't think the wrap was very attractive but I bought it cheap and was hoping to leave it at my show. In the end it was too damn heavy to deal with. Valve design/wrap meh. Overall design with the 10 pound bell-epic fail.

4. Rath R9: Maybe one of the most unique looking wraps but it sure works. Never really used the Hagmann valves but I really liked the rotary valves. Maybe should've kept that one-oh well.

5. M&W Dependent instrument: Probably, in my opinion, the most beautiful and well thought out wrap design. Matthew has put a lot of thought into his instruments designs and it shows. For me I also think his rotary valves are the best out there. I am disappointed in myself that I sold the instrument as I just couldn't find the right pipe to use. In the end I had Matthew do a valve conversion on one of my Holton bass trombones(185). I played a friends who had an inline version made and decided to go with that thinking "well that worked for him so I'll just do the same." For the record I really like the instrument and use it quite a bit. I'm sure I would've loved the dependent version as well.

6. Holton TR 180s: Owned many, sold many. I find the wrap design fine and with a nicely made Minick D slide I think it looks very nice. The blow? Well on some very good and others not so much. The undersized valves and smaller valve tubing compared to Bach tubing can be off-putting to many. I have several that are just setup perfectly and each of mine has the early 9.5 inch bell. No 10 inch bells for me thanks. Another side note: I just had Pete Edwards make a new set of valve cores for my oldest 180. Wow! Completely amazed by how the single and double valve registers speak with changing the quality of the original sound. Couldn't be happier.

One that I've seen but not played. The early dependent Edwards design with the Thayer valves looks like it would be difficult to hold. Maybe ask Dave Taylor. I know he's using a Butler bell at the moment to make it lighter to hold. Another that I tried was an early Gary Greenhoe Elkhart 62H conversion that was amazing! I was actually trying it for a few days when the owner texted me and said he wanted it back and that he was not selling it anymore. Bummer-great design and blow! There are many others that I just haven't tried and now I'm out of money. Who wouldn't be?

Mertelstein · 2024-12-11 2:43 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]<QUOTE author="Mertelstein" post_id="261043" time="1733913102" user_id="17140">
Another +1 for the DG here. I absolutely adore it. Sure it's not appropriate for many settings, but it really is as others have said its own animal and when it's the right horn, there is really nothing like it. I love the original trigger set-up too - it just "works" for me.

That said: on Aidan's point about dependents (or deepys - I liked that!) being more or less obsolete, I'd suggest this is another case of the UK and the US being divided by a common language...in the military bands in the UK, from casual observation, dependents are by far more prevalent than independents, so they do still have life in one small part of the world![/quote]

I don't know many settings where a DG would be clearly inappropriate while a Conn/Bach/Edwards/Shires /Rath/M&W/Thein double would be clearly appropriate. DGs have been played in every setting. It's a matter of player and approach.

</QUOTE>

On this one I was a little nervous about the reactions I've had elsewhere when I've said this so hedged my bets. FWIW I played exclusively a DG when I was pro in the UK - basically I only had the money for one bass, and that was the one, so you made it work for everything. I adore it and it's still my favourite horn. BUT recently in some of my (amateur) work, my own reflection is that I've found that my DG (not the original I had which was stolen, but a replacement I've had for 15 years which was just as good but had a silvered bell and wasn't an SS) just doesn't blend with (e.g.) an orchestral section of large bore red brass tenors and (particularly) an Eastman York-type Tuba. Or rather - it can be MADE to blend, but the effort to do so is really quite something. Whereas my other horn - a late 70s Conn 73H which I've never got on with very well - blends with far less effort.

I say about never getting along with that 73H - for a person who, on large bore tenors, swears by 88H it was a surprise for me, but I have found the combination of the valves (which have always felt a LOT tighter than the DG or even my Elkhart 88H when playing, even with proper alignment and work done on them) and the slightly longer-than-usual slide, it's just too quirky to ever be a truly "enjoyable" experience that I get from my DG. It was the temporary replacement I got while trying to find a replacement DG, and I couldn't wait to hop back to the DG after. But as said above, for certain situations, it is definitely a better (if not as fun) choice - but appreciate that's very much down to individual tastes!

biggiesmalls · by **biggiesmalls** » 2024-12-11 3:12 p.m.

[quote="RJMason"]Maybe not the best design? But I bought an old Yamaha 612 and had it upgraded with some levers and leadpipe from the 830, added a screw collar, and it plays really quite well. D and Eb attachments. All for less than half the price of a custom boutique dependent…think I was $2400 all in.[/quote]

This^^^

I've bought and sold a number of stock 612's, and although I'm not a bass player, these horns played so well and so consistently that they almost made me want to become one. Perfect candidates for modifying on a budget. These old Yamahas are a big bang for the buck (or pound, or Euro or...).

The N series Elkhart 62H I sold before the Pandemic was the single best playing vintage Conn I have ever owned, regardless of bore size or era. The valve registers matched up nicely with the open horn, and the high register slotting, response and intonation were to die for. If I were a bass player, I would have split the triggers and lived happily ever after, because I would probably never would have become proficient enough to play much of modern solo literature that is written with independent valves in mind anyway, and dependents would have been just fine for practically all of the repertoire I would have found my gray-haired self playing, thank you very much.

But what do I know? Just a tenor player adding my two cents to a high dollar conversation.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-11 3:55 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]<QUOTE> Younger players started on Independent and never tried anything else.[/quote]

I don't think that's quite true. There are still a lot of schools that have single valve or dependent basses.
</QUOTE>

Yep. The only reason the Bach 50B2 is still manufactured at all (still with the non-split triggers, no less...) is that schools keep buying them. This is true for a good portion of Conn-Selmer's lineup, especially the euphoniums and tubas. I suspect this is also true of the Yamaha YBL-620G, which was marketed as an "intermediate" bass from the outset. I always liked how the 620G looked, that's one of the better-looking stacked setups IMO.

My high school had 2 Bach 50B3Os, a shiny newer one and a worn older one with the L bell. I went from zero valves to those, so I learned both valves at once.

[quote="Matt K"]Regarding the utility of the forum: sometimes there's... just nothing to talk about. Maybe we'll get to a point where everything has been talked about.[/quote]

Nonsense! We can always come up with crazy horn ideas and spitball about them. That triple dependent thread is due for a resurrection...

...or we could have yet another "underrated horns" thread. :lol:

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-12-11 4:08 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]Regarding the utility of the forum: sometimes there's... just nothing to talk about. Maybe we'll get to a point where everything has been talked about.[/quote]

Yeah, right. Reminds me of the (apocryphal) tale about about a proposal in the late 1800s that the U.S. Patent Office be closed, since "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-11 4:09 p.m.

[quote="Matt K"]What you are describing also circles around so-called "Bollinger" tuning, which technically wasn't invented by him to the best of my knowledge but he is obviously somewhat famous for using the tuning system b/c of a book he wrote on it. The basic idea is you want to keep your hand somewhere in the middle of the slide as much as possible for technical reasons, and tuning it a particular way (close to Bb/F/G/Eb or Bb/F/Eb) allows you to do so, though at the expense of having to farther out on the slide for other notes.[/quote] I had thought about that, though whether you have the "in tune" notes line up in 1st position or somewhere around 3rd, you still need to learn a different set of positions for every different tuning.

Of course, I'm also of the mind that honestly the bass trombone is a very poor design for that type of playing. It's an ergonomic nightmare to freely move between all the key areas of the instrument, and there would be much better ways to design it if the intention was to have that kind of facility. It would probably end up looking like a 2 or 3 valve cimbasso with a slide, and by that time just make it a cimbasso. A "manually compensated" valve instrument or something like that.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-12-11 5:17 p.m.

Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.

And if you need proof, check out all of Dave Taylor's discography. Try to find someone who has a bootleg copy of Doug Yeo playing the John Williams Tuba Concerto with Poston Pops...or listen to any of his other recordings. Listen to Randy Hawes first CD Melodrama, which was recorded on a dependent Bach. Listen to Max Seigel on his solo CD BlueBird, or on any recording by Kyle Saulnier's Awakening Orchestra, or the Roy Hargrove Big Band. Or Stefan Schulz. Or John Rojak.

Choose to play whatever you want to play - I play inline valves now because I like having those options - but practice your scales and play in tune.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-11 5:44 p.m.

Only the realest real bass trombone playuhs will be playing like:

<YOUTUBE id="Jcstdl55lj8" t="759">~~[media]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://youtu.be/Jcstdl55lj8?si=H5U5_Kj ... V&t=12m39s">https://youtu.be/Jcstdl55lj8?si=H5U5_Kju_OMAOApV&t=12m39s</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-12-11 6:15 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]Nonsense! We can always come up with crazy horn ideas and spitball about them. That triple dependent thread is due for a resurrection...

...or we could have yet another "underrated horns" thread. :lol:[/quote]
Speaking of which, I have a triple dependent neckline with one valve mounted… the other two valves are mounted to each other and I have to trim the tube between them and then assembly will speed forward. ‘F’ tuning slide ready to go, will need to trim a bend to make the ‘G’ tuning slide work, then just have to fit the D slide and not look like a garbage can.

(But I’ve stalled while I figure out a better triple Indy)

/ducks

Cheers,

Andy

MTbassbone · by **MTbassbone** » 2024-12-11 6:51 p.m.

+1 for the Yamaha YBL-620G. One time I was trying out horns at Dillon Music and it was the best horn in the store IMHO.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-11 7:11 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]Speaking of which, I have a triple dependent neckline with one valve mounted… the other two valves are mounted to each other and I have to trim the tube between them and then assembly will speed forward. ‘F’ tuning slide ready to go, will need to trim a bend to make the ‘G’ tuning slide work, then just have to fit the D slide and not look like a garbage can.[/quote]

That's what I like to hear!

(But I’ve stalled while I figure out a better triple Indy)

/ducks

3 inline or 2 inline with a 3rd dependent?

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-11 11:36 p.m.

[quote="elmsandr"]a better triple Indy[/quote]

Loop lengths aside, what do you think of the Schagerl superbone arrangement?

gbedinger · 2024-12-12 6:28 a.m.

Nothing to see here, operator error.

gbedinger · by **gbedinger** » 2024-12-12 6:31 a.m.

[quote="WGWTR180"]So the title of this thread is Best Dependent Bass design.
[/quote]

Wow, quite a few more entries since I turned my phone out last nite! At any rate, Bill, that was a useful summary you gave in the previous page.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-12 9:12 a.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.
[/quote]

Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.) There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-12-12 9:39 a.m.

[quote="Dennis"]Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.) There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.[/quote]

Very few composers really understand glissandi on the trombone, and virtually anything can be faked to make it sound as the composer intended.

I don't understand your comment about adjusting F2 and C3. You can't or don't do that on the F valve?

Matt_K · by **Matt_K** » 2024-12-12 9:48 a.m.

I think what they're saying is that it gives them thestability to have the F remain where it is and adjust a secondary valve to be flexible in it's tuning orientation for the notes that overlap (e.g. like Tiffany was saying how she uses the Gb valve for F more than the F valve, which I also find myself in a similar boat).

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-12 1:07 p.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]+1 for the Yamaha YBL-620G. One time I was trying out horns at Dillon Music and it was the best horn in the store IMHO.[/quote] They are really a lovely horn. As I've probably mentioned before, I have the predecessor, the YBL-612 RII, and it's a great horn, usable for a LOT of different repertoire. It's not constantly stuck in "orchestra mode" like the 822G, 830, and 835 series.

I currently am playing a Christmas program with it and a Ferguson Jeff Reynolds replica, and it plays and sounds great for both Nutcracker and Christmas Festival.

elmsandr · by **elmsandr** » 2024-12-12 1:40 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]<QUOTE author="elmsandr" post_id="261135" time="1733958937" user_id="147">
a better triple Indy[/quote]

Loop lengths aside, what do you think of the Schagerl superbone arrangement?
</QUOTE>

Ergonomics seem awkward…. My plan is to do three inline with a modified Haynor type grip to allow a relatively neutral wrist posture and use standard 1-2-3 valve fingers and fingering. Maybe a slight extention but the schagerl seems to require a heck of a rotation and ulnar deviation to hold and operate.
<ATTACHMENT filename="IMG_9904.jpeg" index="0">~~[attachment=0]~~IMG_9904.jpeg</ATTACHMENT>

This will be more of a “super bone” large tenor with some slide changes available. Short answer, I want to have a standard ish superbone AND a Bb/F/G available. This started as I was going to build a double tenor for the flexibility and then thought why stop there when I’m doing something stupid. I’m still collecting parts for this, so it will be a ways off less I decide to spend real money on it, and this isn’t the top project on the list for real money investment. If it works well enough I may try a bass version, too.

Back on topic, that top project on my list is to make the Fuchs downstairs playable with a dependent setup drop in valve. Or maybe even permanently mounted. One thing I want to maintain is a semi open wrap that is contained within the Bb horn envelope. Nothing big sticking out back. The Fuchs single wrap is gorgeous and I need to not screw that up.

Cheers,

Andy

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-12 2:05 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]

Very few composers really understand glissandi on the trombone, and virtually anything can be faked to make it sound as the composer intended.

I don't understand your comment about adjusting F2 and C3. You can't or don't do that on the F valve?[/quote]

On composers understanding trombones generally and glissandi in particular, amen to that. Those who do understand them are trombonists themselves. I'm thinking of Dorothy Gates in particular--she plays in the Salvation Army New York Staff Band. If she writes it, she knows it's plausible and expects to hear it.

Also, you've undoubtedly forgotten more about this stuff than I know, Gabe. You certainly know a lot more about trombone pedagogy than I'll ever know.

I'm talking about conflict between tuning them on the F-valve. If I keep the F-valve loop short enough that I can tune them both for sustained notes I lose C2 at the bottom of the slide with the F valve. It's too sharp even on my Bach's longer slide to be useful for a sustained note but it's extremely useful to have in passing. I usually take F2 and C3 on the finger valve (a sharp Gb on my horns) or in 6th on the open horn. More options for adjusting the pitch while staying in the center of the slot that way.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-12-12 2:25 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]I'm talking about conflict between tuning them on the F-valve. If I keep the F-valve loop short enough that I can tune them both for sustained notes I lose C2 at the bottom of the slide with the F valve. It's too sharp even on my Bach's longer slide to be useful for a sustained note but it's extremely useful to have in passing. I usually take F2 and C3 on the finger valve (a sharp Gb on my horns) or in 6th on the open horn. More options for adjusting the pitch while staying in the center of the slot that way.[/quote]

Ah, I see where you're going now...Ray Premru - who played his whole career almost entirely on a single valve - would pull his F slide about 2 inches when he needed to play a low C. I do that when playing a single as well.

I knew a player who figured out a new tuning when he replaced his Bach 50B2 with a 50B3 in the 70s. He would have the F valve very long - too long to play F or C in 1st but a great low C in 7th, and then play all Fs and Cs in the staff on the Gb valve. With today's better valves it's much less necessary to come up with solutions like that.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-12 4:00 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]Ah, I see where you're going now...Ray Premru - who played his whole career almost entirely on a single valve - would pull his F slide about 2 inches when he needed to play a low C. I do that when playing a single as well.

I knew a player who figured out a new tuning when he replaced his Bach 50B2 with a 50B3 in the 70s. He would have the F valve very long - too long to play F or C in 1st but a great low C in 7th, and then play all Fs and Cs in the staff on the Gb valve. With today's better valves it's much less necessary to come up with solutions like that.[/quote] Doesn't one of the Ostrander bass trombone methods go over "Flat F" tuning and positions for the Attachment? Basically to get an in tune low C at the end of the slide, sacrificing the C and low F in first position.

I skipped that section as honestly there wouldn't have been any purpose. If I need a low C I'm using a double valve. There's also I think an E pull section, which I also skipped.

Kbiggs · by **Kbiggs** » 2024-12-12 4:06 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="261127" time="1733955425" user_id="102">
Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.
[/quote]

Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.)

</QUOTE>

I can attest to learning scales for the Bb, F, and Gb horns. A few years ago when I had Kanstul CR valves on my customized independent Bach, one of the valves got stuck during performance—I don’t remember which now, but I think it was the F-valve. Fortunately, the pieces weren’t that heavy below the staff, but I had to quickly re-think some in-staff slide and valve work using the G-flat valve. If I had been playing a dependent horn, I might have had to leave out a few notes or resorted to using factitious tones. Either way, I would have had a hard time of it.

[quote="Dennis"]

There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.[/quote]

I think a lot of composers don’t understand the details of harmonics/partials on brass instruments, and especially when writing a “true” glissando. Perhaps they assume that the trombone can make a gliss from the lowest tone to the highest without any break. Like Montgomery Scott said, “I cannae change the laws o’ physics, captain!” We can, however, sound like we’re doing just that.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-12 4:29 p.m.

[quote="Kbiggs"]I can attest to learning scales for the Bb, F, and Gb horns. A few years ago when I had Kanstul CR valves on my customized independent Bach, one of the valves got stuck during performance—I don’t remember which now, but I think it was the F-valve. Fortunately, the pieces weren’t that heavy below the staff, but I had to quickly re-think some in-staff slide and valve work using the G-flat valve. If I had been playing a dependent horn, I might have had to leave out a few notes or resorted to using factitious tones. Either way, I would have had a hard time of it.[/quote] I've always been on the fence over just how high in the register I should learn the F, Gb, and D sides of the horn. Especially in the higher partials, when you have that much more tubing involved, the tuning quirks and such just become that much worse. Also things can get pretty squirrely as well, like playing "fake" pedal Bb in D position 5.

I do however think a lot about Double horns, compensating instruments, and also tubas with 6 valves and such, which have some that are used almost entirely only for one or two specific notes. The trombone is unique due to the slide, so the problems they have to deal with, we don't. I have a book full of alternate "in tune" fingerings for Compensating Bb Euphonium without a trigger, and that's when I realized just how different playing a trombone is from playing just about any other brass instrument.

GabrielRice · by **GabrielRice** » 2024-12-12 4:41 p.m.

[quote="tbonesullivan"]I've always been on the fence over just how high in the register I should learn the F, Gb, and D sides of the horn. Especially in the higher partials, when you have that much more tubing involved, the tuning quirks and such just become that much worse. Also things can get pretty squirrely as well, like playing "fake" pedal Bb in D position 5.[/quote]

One of the best things I ever did for my playing was start making 5, 6, and 7 note lip slurs on the valves part of my daily routine. Slow, fast, and everything in between. Being able to do accurate slurs over 2 octaves with both valves down is great for tone production and air.

Wilco · by **Wilco** » 2024-12-12 4:50 p.m.

[quote="Dennis"]<QUOTE author="GabrielRice" post_id="261127" time="1733955425" user_id="102">
Imma be honest and say something that might hurt some feelings.

If you think you need an inline instrument to play whatever anybody can throw at you, you need to practice your scales a whole lot more and leave the 2nd valve out of the equation for a while. Pretty much anything you think you need the G or G-flat valve by itself to play in some fast passage can be done between 3rd and 5th position using the F valve and the open horn.
[/quote]

Need? No. Outside of brass band I could do almost all my playing on a single. (And in truth, if I took the ossia alternatives offered, I could do a lot of my brass band playing on a single or even a straight Bb horn.) There are half-a-dozen (maximum) things I've seen that require a G or bG or Gb valve to play, and they all have glissandi that you can't do on a Bb or F horn. (Maybe some can be done on a D horn...I'm not sure.)

I want my life to be easier. I also really like being able to adjust F2 and C3, but I suppose that's another component of making my life easier.
</QUOTE>

The Europa wide brassband testpiece Sand and Stars of last years’ contesting was definately written with the independent in mind. <YOUTUBE id="zBQDotZmhJ8">https://youtu.be/zBQDotZmhJ8?si=XwFVYdTc6JEe4q_r</YOUTUBE>

Bassbone had a little mute thing at 5:40. There is a gliss from low Eb to F#. My solution was a fake Eb in 7th and then gliss up.

And there where some other places that needed creative solutions

Pieter · by **Pieter** » 2024-12-13 10:05 a.m.

F# -1st, F 2nd, E 3rd, Eb: 5th position?!

Odd choice of notation :)

I do really like the ybl-620G, it not being independent is just a minor thing.

Thoseh ave a removable bit of tube on the second valve to tune it to Eb instead of D. I wonder if anyone still uses that tuning.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-13 12:59 p.m.

I'd handle the lick at 359 by pulling one of the valve slides so that I have Bb2 at the end of the slide (or if I have enough length to put Bb2 around 6th with both valves, I might do that), and play everything else on the open horn.

The lick at 383 is going to require D2 on both valves or Bb2 out at the end of the slide. I'd try it both ways and see how what works best for me.

The gliss from Eb2 to F#2 requires a short valve--G might actually work better than Gb for that one.

Eb is in 4th position on a Gb trombone, which is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5th position on a Bb trombone. It's an abusive notation, but it's what composers use.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2024-12-13 1:10 p.m.

[quote="MTbassbone"]+1 for the Yamaha YBL-620G. One time I was trying out horns at Dillon Music and it was the best horn in the store IMHO.[/quote]

I have one! Great and easy trombone to play. Nice sound too. The wrap looks cool, never seen it in other trombones.

Leif

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-13 3:42 p.m.

[quote="GabrielRice"]One of the best things I ever did for my playing was start making 5, 6, and 7 note lip slurs on the valves part of my daily routine. Slow, fast, and everything in between. Being able to do accurate slurs over 2 octaves with both valves down is great for tone production and air.[/quote] Hmm... that is a very good point. I usually only do 3 note slurs all the way down the valves, leaving the 7 and 8 note slurred and tongued exercises up through the partials to do without any valves involved.

I'll definitely have to try that. I could use some increased security.

jonathanharker · by **jonathanharker** » 2024-12-14 2:54 a.m.

[quote="Dennis"]I'd handle the lick at 359 by pulling one of the valve slides so that I have Bb2 at the end of the slide (or if I have enough length to put Bb2 around 6th with both valves, I might do that), and play everything else on the open horn.

The lick at 383 is going to require D2 on both valves or Bb2 out at the end of the slide. I'd try it both ways and see how what works best for me.[/quote]

I'd do 383 starting on pedal in 1st, D in (F)4th, and F in 6th, and 389 looks like pedal in 1st, F in (F)1st, Gb in 5th, Bb in (F)3rd, etc. The Eb-Gb slur needs an indy, sure, but unless you're by yourself, it's amazing what you can get away with in a texture!

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2024-12-16 8:20 p.m.

[quote="Pieter"]I do really like the ybl-620G, it not being independent is just a minor thing.

Thoseh ave a removable bit of tube on the second valve to tune it to Eb instead of D. I wonder if anyone still uses that tuning.[/quote] I could see a valve that drops a whole step being useful in some situations. It also does lighten up the horn considerably if you aren't playing repertoire that requires the second valve.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-17 12:02 p.m.

[quote="jonathanharker"]<QUOTE author="Dennis" post_id="261317" time="1734112787" user_id="175">
I'd handle the lick at 359 by pulling one of the valve slides so that I have Bb2 at the end of the slide (or if I have enough length to put Bb2 around 6th with both valves, I might do that), and play everything else on the open horn.

The lick at 383 is going to require D2 on both valves or Bb2 out at the end of the slide. I'd try it both ways and see how what works best for me.[/quote]

I'd do 383 starting on pedal in 1st, D in (F)4th, and F in 6th, and 389 looks like pedal in 1st, F in (F)1st, Gb in 5th, Bb in (F)3rd, etc. The Eb-Gb slur needs an indy, sure, but unless you're by yourself, it's amazing what you can get away with in a texture!
</QUOTE>

That could work at 383, but getting from 6 back to 1 at tempo could be an issue.

SamBTbrn · by **SamBTbrn** » 2024-12-17 1:53 p.m.

I only play independent bass and the only one of these I would consider using the 2nd valve Independently is that gliss from En to the f#, but again it's possible to find a solution without it.

The other "fast" licks, even with my independent bass I wouldn't think to use the 2nd valve to play them. Just be quick on the slide....

LIBrassCo · by **LIBrassCo** » 2025-03-13 3:34 a.m.

New one I just made. I get what the hoopla is with hagmanns for sure, plus they just look cool.

Rrova · by **Rrova** » 2025-03-13 9:53 p.m.

I was at the American Trombone Workshop today and there were four Greenhoe bass trombones, one of which was dependent. I honestly could not notice any advantage in terms of blow with the dependent, and one who is totally open to either. BTW, I REALLY like the GC5 model! Which is odd as I’ve played Bach my whole life! I also really like the horns with Hagmanns as well. Unfortunately no dependents ones there. Jeff’s dependent looks really cool!

nateaff · by **nateaff** » 2025-03-14 8:11 p.m.

The Doug Yeo Yamaha is is perfect except for one significant flaw, both legs of valve wrap are on the left side, so the bell section is always flopping away from you, which could be annoying holding it any longer than a few minutes.

tbonesullivan · by **tbonesullivan** » 2025-03-14 8:45 p.m.

[quote="nateaff"]The Doug Yeo Yamaha is is perfect except for one significant flaw, both legs of valve wrap are on the left side, so the bell section is always flopping away from you, which could be annoying holding it any longer than a few minutes.[/quote]I've never had any issues with mine. The Holton TR181 also has all the plumbing on the same side. I think the King Duo Gravis also had both attachments on the same side, though sometimes I see the second valve on the right and not the left.

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