Valve Trombone in Jazz Band

Thom · by **Thom** » 2024-12-17 1:45 p.m.

Has anyone played, or are currently playing, a valve trombone in a swing style jazz band? What are the reactions from the slide players?

AndrewMeronek · by **AndrewMeronek** » 2024-12-17 1:52 p.m.

Juan Tizol played valve trombone with Duke Ellington. It works fine, especially as Juan did, playing 3rd bone where the valves are most beneficial (i.e., negotiating the lower bass clef).

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-17 2:29 p.m.

Bob Brookmeyer played valve trombone in Gerry Mulligan's Concert Jazz Band and the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Orchestra.

The relevant question is more, "can you play" than it is "what do you play".

Posaunus · by **Posaunus** » 2024-12-18 5:10 p.m.

No longer with us, but Rob McConnell (with the Boss Brass), was as good as it gets!

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-18 5:14 p.m.

I think that if you don't play as well as those superheroes, you'll get some dirty looks. Slide trombone is the standard, and rightly or wrongly, a valve trombone will have to prove itself.

Bach5G · by **Bach5G** » 2024-12-18 5:21 p.m.

I wandered into a history of jazz course one afternoon and caught some video of Bob Brookmeyer playing with, I think, Clark Terry. They went toe to toe for a few choruses. Tremendous playing by both. I think valve trombone is unfairly maligned.

Speaking of valve instruments, for a while I occasionally played in a band where a French horn player would cover the trombone parts, transposition and all. Sounded fine. In tune and didn’t drag.

MahlerMusic · by **MahlerMusic** » 2024-12-18 5:55 p.m.

Isn't a valve trombone's main use case being in a jazz band?

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-18 8:11 p.m.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]Isn't a valve trombone's main use case being in a jazz band?[/quote]

Pretty much. They are definitely unwelcome in orchestras and serious wind ensembles.

JohnL · by **JohnL** » 2024-12-18 9:20 p.m.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]Isn't a valve trombone's main use case being in a jazz band?[/quote]
I suspect that most valve trombones are sold to trumpet players who want to double, and to school music programs for baritone/euph players to use in jazz band.

[quote="Dennis"]Pretty much. They are definitely unwelcome in orchestras and serious wind ensembles.[/quote]
Any small bore trombone, slide or valve, would be generally unwelcome in an orchestra or a serious wind ensemble. The one possible exception would be orchestral music that was originally written for valve trombones (e.g., Italian operas).

I wouldn't suggest walking into a swing band that you're trying to join with a valve trombone. Start with slide trombone and then introduce the valve trombone once you're established. Maybe just as a solo instrument to start with, if you're up to improvising.

Bach5G · 2024-12-18 9:24 p.m.

I wish I played valve bone (as well as slide bone).

Geordie · by **Geordie** » 2024-12-19 2:19 a.m.

Cannot recall the name, but earlier this year our big band played a chart where the third trombone was marked ‘valve trombone’. The rest of the section had no such marking. When I shake off my flu I’ll look it up.

Dennis · by **Dennis** » 2024-12-19 11:58 a.m.

[quote="JohnL"][Any small bore trombone, slide or valve, would be generally unwelcome in an orchestra or a serious wind ensemble. The one possible exception would be orchestral music that was originally written for valve trombones (e.g., Italian operas).[/quote]

The other exception is pops concerts. I played in a Nelson Riddle tribute concert about 15 years ago. The. section was enlarged to four, three tenors on small bores (a 2B, 3B, and a 6H) and the Olds George Roberts single on bass.

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-19 1:44 p.m.

[quote="MahlerMusic"]Isn't a valve trombone's main use case being in a jazz band?[/quote]

Banda is really the main purpose of valve trombones in the 21st century, though they mostly play valve trombones in C. In Catalonia there is an ensemble called the cobla which also uses one valve trombone (also usually in C, as far as I know), though some players are using slide trombones these days.

Most Bb valve trombones are used in schools, so the jazz band trombone section can be filled out by trumpet or euphonium players who don't want to learn slide.

A comprehensive list of current jazz valve trombone players would be a cool thing to make. I know Mike Fahn plays valve trombone - his work on Dick Berk's album "One by One" (with Andy Martin on slide trombone) is great. Ido Meshulam occasionally shows up to a gig with one, and sounds great on it of course.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2024-12-20 1:04 p.m.

In Italy, I often see valve tenor trombones in wind bands, sometimes with something like a Bach 42 on bass.

A big band I play with in London has some Bill Russo parts going back to the '60s where the 2nd and 3rd parts are valve/slide doubles, I'm guessing it would have been Dave Horler in those days.

MiBrassFs · by **MiBrassFs** » 2024-12-20 3:44 p.m.

All those well known Italian opera composers (Verdi, etc.) assumed the section was going to be populated with valve trombones, too. So, off the beat path here, but still an important historical use!

<YOUTUBE id="jv8uWpWiCMk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv8uWpWiCMk</YOUTUBE>

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-20 9:13 p.m.

[quote="MiBrassFs"]All those well known Italian opera composers (Verdi, etc.) assumed the section was going to be populated with valve trombones, too. So, off the beat path here, but still an important historical use![/quote]

Yes, there are other orchestral pieces that were written for valve trombones, including some (or all?) of Dvorak's works. But they are almost never played on valve trombones today, which in some cases (those Italian operas especially) is a real shame.

sf105 · by **sf105** » 2024-12-21 12:11 p.m.

I went to see some Verdi in Bologna a little while ago and as far as I can tell, the section was using valves.

rickfaulknernyc · by **rickfaulknernyc** » 2024-12-22 5:19 p.m.

[quote="AndrewMeronek"]Juan Tizol played valve trombone with Duke Ellington. It works fine, especially as Juan did, playing 3rd bone where the valves are most beneficial (i.e., negotiating the lower bass clef).[/quote]

When John Saunders joined Ellington in the 50's, Duke persuaded him to switch to valve trombone (a model in C, like Tizol played). I've heard, but can't confirm, that Claude Jones also played valve during at least some of his tenure with the orchestra in the 40's. So apparently Duke liked the sound of the instrument.

A bit of trivia: after leaving Ellington, Saunders entered the priesthood and eventually rose to the level of Monsignor. I've seen pictures of him in later life holding his valve bone, so apparently he continued to play at least sometimes.

rickfaulknernyc · by **rickfaulknernyc** » 2024-12-22 5:22 p.m.

Here's Saunders playing a (written) solo on the Billy Strayhorn tribute album Duke recorded in 1967 (he apparently returned just for the recording):

<YOUTUBE id="yYxmYbEcRSg">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYxmYbEcRSg</YOUTUBE>

rickfaulknernyc · by **rickfaulknernyc** » 2024-12-22 5:24 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]Banda is really the main purpose of valve trombones in the 21st century, though they mostly play valve trombones in C.

They're also still used in Indian brass bands....[/quote]

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-12-23 7:22 p.m.

also in Greece and Macedonia instead of tenor horns

some bands have more of a melodic tradition where they play the melodies an octave below trumpet or clarinet (as opposed to bulgaria/serbia/romania, tenor horns playing mostly rhythm parts instead of melodies)

<YOUTUBE id="Zf9XZcOfh1c">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9XZcOfh1c</YOUTUBE>

BTW spent the month of August in Tepoztlan, Morelos, MX and sat in with a banda. 7 slide trombones. Another band had 1 slide player and 1 valve (and a bell front tuba) and a third band had the more typical 3 valve trombones and a sousa. Used to be different instrumentation in brass bands throughout Mexico but the Sinaloan style banda really took over in the last couple decades.

jacobgarchik · by **jacobgarchik** » 2024-12-23 8:10 p.m.

In a more recent jazz context, Diego Urcola is a great valve trombone player.

<YOUTUBE id="vOyUVypjPHo" list="OLAK5uy_mBiYPmzBIjap9dmZ5G1Ksaj14tHWKwMLA"><LINK_TEXT text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOyUVyp ... 14tHWKwMLA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOyUVypjPHo&list=OLAK5uy_mBiYPmzBIjap9dmZ5G1Ksaj14tHWKwMLA</LINK_TEXT></YOUTUBE>

Also Mark Levine played for a while before concentrating solely on piano.

<YOUTUBE id="dSuLu6NJ8NA">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSuLu6NJ8NA</YOUTUBE>

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Valve Trombone in Jazz Band