Low B Natural In First and Second part

toneovertune · by **toneovertune** » 2024-12-18 3:00 p.m.

I am playing a wind ensemble piece and the second and first parts have a low b natural. A third trombone part with the same low b natural line also exists which is being played. This is the only time in the piece it is there for first or second trombones. Should I take it up an octave or not play it at all. Our third trombone has a bass trombone and can play it so it will still be played by someone. I will also ask the conductor about this, but I am curious about the common practice in these moments.

harrisonreed · by **harrisonreed** » 2024-12-18 3:23 p.m.

:bassclef: :line2: this note?

JohnL · 2024-12-18 3:25 p.m.

[quote="toneovertune"]Should I take it up an octave or not play it at all.[/quote]
I'm assuming that you're referring to a B below the staff?

If the composer wanted a second-line B-natural at that point in the music, it's there already in another part, so there's no sense in playing the written note up an octave.. If the composer didn't want it there, you certainly shouldn't play it.

I'm curious; what's the piece and who is the composer?

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-18 3:30 p.m.

Your profile lists "Conn 88h, remington mouthpiece large bore". I believe the 1st-gen 88hs had a tuning slide long enough for flat-E tuning. So you could re-tune the F attachment for the piece (or portion of the piece, if rests allow), and play the B at the end of the slide.

You (or your mates) could leave the attachment tuned to F, and play a "false tone" B. Usually, this is found in T3, the same place you would play low Eb. But that probably won't sound great unless you've already been practicing false tones for a while.

I vote for octave up. But it depends on who else is playing the note. You mentioned third trombone, but what about tuba, bassoon, bass clarinet, etc. It may be scored heavily enough that a couple of trombone parts don't matter. Ask your director.

In my (community) orchestra, we played a piece last year where trombone 2 had a lot of low notes, from low D down to pedal A or so, including the infamous B. So it happens. With a stronger player, maybe it could be done. But my chum should have taken it up an octave. It ended up too weak. I couldn't hear it at all, and I was sitting right next to him. The higher octave would have been music, at least. A lot of non-professional tenor players (like me) don't have good control of the trigger register), and probably shouldn't perform down there!

tbdana · by **tbdana** » 2024-12-18 3:33 p.m.

Well, that's just incredibly poor writing. The best solution is to burn the 1st and 2nd trombone parts in a ritual fire on the conductor's music stand. :mrgreen:

If it's a stand-alone note that is covered by the 3rd player, I'd just leave it out. If it's written as one note in a line or passage, I'd fake it, or ghost it, or pull your F tuning slide way out and extend your hand slide down to the very end of 7th position and lip it down the rest of the way.

In the end, poor writing isn't your fault, but you should do your best to fix the problem without involving the conductor. Are you playing first? If so, find your solution and implement it. Are you playing 2nd? Then suggest a solution to the principal player but go with whatever solution he/she decides on.

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2024-12-18 3:47 p.m.

~~[url]~~<LINK_TEXT text="https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuxcesIg ... BiNWFlZA==">https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuxcesIgUvJ/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==</LINK_TEXT>

Agreed that it's just poor writing. I teach a writing for brass class where I teach and do pretty regular guests lectures for composers, that's always one of the first things we cover. People gotta stop writing that.

That being said, you can play it as a pretty good false tone in a sharp third, with the valve down. Or, especially with an 88h, pull your valve slide all the way out and you've got a solid low B that's fairly sharp, but it's got a flexible enough center you can attack it in tune. Some composers who wrote that note are aware you can do that, most who are just careless. I'd just play it up an octave if there's not specific knowledge that the composer knew what they were doing rather than compensate for their error.

toneovertune · by **toneovertune** » 2024-12-18 7:23 p.m.

[quote="JohnL"]<QUOTE author="toneovertune" post_id="261830" time="1734552039" user_id="18529">Should I take it up an octave or not play it at all.[/quote]
I'm assuming that you're referring to a B below the staff?

</QUOTE>

Yes and the composer is Adam Gorb in Awayday

toneovertune · by **toneovertune** » 2024-12-18 7:26 p.m.

Also thank you for all the advice, I might try to test how in tune the b natural can be with the f attachment tuning slide all the way out.

hyperbolica · by **hyperbolica** » 2024-12-18 9:00 p.m.

Definitely someone who doesn't understand the trombone wrote that, but I'd talk to the conductor, who has the score and sees what's going on with the rest of the group.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-18 9:08 p.m.

[quote="hyperbolica"]Definitely someone who doesn't understand the trombone wrote that[/quote]

...which gives you and your conductor license to modify the part. "Composer's intentions" are forfeit.

Olofson · by **Olofson** » 2024-12-19 7:24 a.m.

Talk to the director. It is probably a missprint. Or the composer want a sound of a catastroph.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-19 8:50 a.m.

Is it this B at 1:48?

<YOUTUBE id="Zj2LL_VExlk" t="106">https://youtu.be/Zj2LL_VExlk?t=106</YOUTUBE>

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-12-19 9:00 a.m.

I'm looking at that as well. It looks like the low Bs (below the staff) may be covered by tuba/bassoon/string bass. If so, ... ?

Finetales · by **Finetales** » 2024-12-19 2:29 p.m.

It's pretty funny to me that when a concert band composer writes a low B in tenor part, it is assumed that they don't know what they're doing. But when a well-known composer writes one, especially in an orchestral piece, it is assumed that they had the players with instruments that could do that or had good false tones or whatever.

I think 99% of the time the composer just doesn't know. Or they know and write it anyway, a la Strauss.

mbarbier · by **mbarbier** » 2024-12-19 3:21 p.m.

[quote="Finetales"]It's pretty funny to me that when a concert band composer writes a low B in tenor part, it is assumed that they don't know what they're doing. But when a well-known composer writes one, especially in an orchestral piece, it is assumed that they had the players with instruments that could do that or had good false tones or whatever.

I think 99% of the time the composer just doesn't know. Or they know and write it anyway, a la Strauss.[/quote]

I hope that orchestral composers are held to that same standard cause they're just as clueless. It's wild to me the number of really high level composers I talk to about their parts that don't know or just didn't notice they'd done it. Had one with George Lewis, who is a trombonist in addition to be being a huge composer, and he wrote low B with plunger all over a piece. He kinda laughed and shook his head at himself. I'm pretty into giving composers and concepts a lot of grace, but that's just such a basic one. Like plunger/Harmon in the valve range.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-19 3:28 p.m.

An orchestral composer is writing for his legacy. "Maybe some day, an improved instrument will be able to realize my masterpiece." A concert band composer is writing for students who play the prescribed instruments, at whatever grade level the publisher specified.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-12-19 6:30 p.m.

Can’t get that low B on my 4 valve euph either, not even lipping it. Never encountered it written, but have been a few occasions I would have like to have had it. I have thought about trying pulling the 3rd valve mile long tuning slide out to see if that works. On my trumpet I can get a good low (true) Eb by extending the third valve soft slide and just a little lipping. Can get close on my tenor bone, but not close enough to what I’d like so I just don’t try for it. No music anyhow, so no wrong notes, but I do want the notes I play to sound good…while playing them at the correct time.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-12-19 10:54 p.m.

[quote="BrassSection"]Can’t get that low B on my 4 valve euph either, not even lipping it. Never encountered it written, but have been a few occasions I would have like to have had it. I have thought about trying pulling the 3rd valve mile long tuning slide out to see if that works.[/quote]
I'm assuming you have a non-comp euph. I doubt that pulling just the third will get you there, but maybe pulling 1, 3, and 4 might do it. Otherwise, on a compensating euph, it should be there with 1+2+3+4, though without pulling something, even that may be sharp.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2024-12-20 11:47 a.m.

If the note is doubled in a part that can play it reliably (bass trombone or tuba) then it's fine to omit or take up the octave in the other parts. Stupid orchestration error from a composer or arranger who doesn't know what they're doing.

[quote="ghmerrill"]Otherwise, on a compensating euph, it should be there with 1+2+3+4, though without pulling something, even that may be sharp.[/quote]
A compensating 4-valve euph with the 4th valve depressed is functionally just a bad 3-valve F tuba, and B1 is going to be unusably sharp without lipping it down quite a bit.

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-12-20 1:10 p.m.

[quote="spencercarran"]A compensating 4-valve euph with the 4th valve depressed is functionally just a bad 3-valve F tuba, and B1 is going to be unusably sharp without lipping it down quite a bit.[/quote]

I wouldn't call it a "bad" 3-valve F tuba, but it's definitely a small bore 3-valve F tuba. :lol:

I don't have my comp euph any longer, but I don't recall that being such a problem -- if you tune the F valve appropriately. I used to use it as a "small tuba" on a number of occasions (including several times on the Tuba 1 part at Tuba Christmas). Definitely not ideal in terms of tone in the low register (with 4-th valve). But I'd call it usable. I did use a slightly larger mouthpiece than many do with a Euph: a DE Euph J/J9 with a N106 rim. And that was on a Mack Brass 1150 Euph -- so a Yamaha 642 clone. Smaller bore euphs would face a steeper hill there.

spencercarran · by **spencercarran** » 2024-12-20 1:17 p.m.

[quote="ghmerrill"]if you tune the F valve appropriately.[/quote]
That requires making some compromises on intonation elsewhere on the horn, on notes that come up more frequently. If you have a main tuning slide trigger you can almost make it work... but getting a decent tone is still a struggle when you're effectively blowing through 7 valves.

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-20 2:51 p.m.

[quote="toneovertune"]Also thank you for all the advice, I might try to test how in tune the b natural can be with the f attachment tuning slide all the way out.[/quote]

You'll also need to explore new slide locations for Eb on down.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-12-20 7:07 p.m.

Yes, my euph is non compensating. 1-2-3-4 gets a good C on mine. Not a lot of room on 4th valve slide, whole lotta room to pull 3rd.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-12-20 7:11 p.m.

Don't know if it’s the music I’ve played, but I’ve never had written euph note below F just under the staff, or higher than the 1st G above the staff. I often visit lower and higher notes playing off chord charts.

BGuttman · by **BGuttman** » 2024-12-20 7:29 p.m.

[quote="BrassSection"]Don't know if it’s the music I’ve played, but I’ve never had written euph note below F just under the staff, or higher than the 1st G above the staff. I often visit lower and higher notes playing off chord charts.[/quote]
Holst regularly wrote Euphonium parts to D below the staff (1-2-4 with a non-comp).

ghmerrill · by **ghmerrill** » 2024-12-20 7:30 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]Holst regularly wrote Euphonium parts to D below the staff (1-2-4 with a non-comp).[/quote]
Those were the days when men were men. :lol:

Pezza · by **Pezza** » 2024-12-20 9:02 p.m.

[quote="BGuttman"]<QUOTE author="BrassSection" post_id="262061" time="1734739876" user_id="15201">
Don't know if it’s the music I’ve played, but I’ve never had written euph note below F just under the staff, or higher than the 1st G above the staff. I often visit lower and higher notes playing off chord charts.[/quote]
Holst regularly wrote Euphonium parts to D below the staff (1-2-4 with a non-comp).
</QUOTE>

Would be 2-3-4 on a non comp. 1-2-4 on a comp.

I've had a euph part written down to pedal E. Octave below 1 legerline below. And up to Eb, 1 octave above 2 lines above.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-12-21 7:20 p.m.

Play the low D often, 2-3-4 on my non comp gets me a good solid D. 1-3-4 gets me the Db. Use the 4th often for a good solid F below that D. Puts a nice solid ending on quite a few songs we do.

Savio · by **Savio** » 2024-12-22 4:48 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]Is it this B at 1:48?

<YOUTUBE id="Zj2LL_VExlk" t="106">https://youtu.be/Zj2LL_VExlk?t=106</YOUTUBE>[/quote]

In the beginning of this score it say horns, trombones and bassoons up, and tuba, bass clarinet down. All on the same staff but still diveded. As I read the score none of the trombones should play that low B. Only tuba. Must be a typing problem in the way the publisher split the individuals parts. Nice piece, don't think this is the composers fault.

Leif

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-22 6:52 p.m.

If you read the comments, you'll see that the condensed score was condensed by the Youtuber, not the publisher. I think you have to give it a grain of salt. On the other hand, I didn't know that stem direction could be indicated like that.

BrassSection · by **BrassSection** » 2024-12-22 7:09 p.m.

Never got euph out today to try pulling 3rd slide for low B. Christmas music = lots of trumpet work. Actually 2 for most songs, grandson joined me today on his trumpet. Swapped back and forth on who took the high notes, it was fun. One song I did use trombone, worked well having high and low brass together. One song was in B, but not a song to pull the euph out for. Not to worry, we do a lot in B. Christmas Eve music looks like a low brass night. I’ll take trombone and grandson will play my euph. (He hasn’t learned yet good euphonium players stay out of treble.)

Savio · by **Savio** » 2024-12-22 7:48 p.m.

[quote="AtomicClock"]If you read the comments, you'll see that the condensed score was condensed by the Youtuber, not the publisher. I think you have to give it a grain of salt. On the other hand, I didn't know that stem direction could be indicated like that.[/quote]

Sorry, didn't see that. I thought that the condensed score was made by either the composer or the publisher? Anyway, playing the low B on a tenor trombone or a baritone horn? Yes some can do it even on a trumpet but....

The stem direction in a condensed isn't clear to give what instruments to play what. But can give an indication when he write tuba, Bs clar. under and horns, trb, bassoons upper in the beginning of the score. But who did write that condensed score? Not the composer?

Leif

AtomicClock · by **AtomicClock** » 2024-12-22 10:06 p.m.

Three of the commentors (but not the video owner) state or imply that the reduction was the work of the video owner.

Fantastic reduction!

YESSSS! A killer piece and a killer reduction.

He plays a recording and syncs it up with his score reduction

The publisher put out a full score.

[quote="https://www.windrep.org/Awayday"]Full Score[/quote]

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Low B Natural In First and Second part