Bach 4G alternatives?
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
I've just registered and this is my first posting.
Having gone through what seems to be a typical mouthpiece journey I've ended up on a Bach 4G on my Rath 3F. ( 31 and 31A leadpipes) I like the diameter, rim profile and the way it "blows" but I'd like to produce a "richer" tone with more definition. Would a slightly shallower mouthpiece do the trick or is it more complicated than that? Any suggestions for a mouthpiece gratefully recieved. I play 2nd trombone in a brass band and 3rd trombone in a big band and I'm looking forward to playing in smaller ensembles.
Having gone through what seems to be a typical mouthpiece journey I've ended up on a Bach 4G on my Rath 3F. ( 31 and 31A leadpipes) I like the diameter, rim profile and the way it "blows" but I'd like to produce a "richer" tone with more definition. Would a slightly shallower mouthpiece do the trick or is it more complicated than that? Any suggestions for a mouthpiece gratefully recieved. I play 2nd trombone in a brass band and 3rd trombone in a big band and I'm looking forward to playing in smaller ensembles.
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
The guy who can really help is Doug Elliott, but I'll give it a little shot. I found I got nicer tone with a Wick 4BL (the 4AL was more of an air hog for me). There are other mouthpieces with the same rim size, but I've never played them. I eventually settled on a Doug Elliott LT 102/G/G8, but the E/E8 gave a better response in the upper register.
It's hard to help pin down "richer" and "definition" since these terms often mean different things to different people. And sometimes they can be at cross-purposes; i.e. whatever improves one makes the other one worse.
It's hard to help pin down "richer" and "definition" since these terms often mean different things to different people. And sometimes they can be at cross-purposes; i.e. whatever improves one makes the other one worse.
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
[quote="NotATrumpet"]I've just registered and this is my first posting.
Having gone through what seems to be a typical mouthpiece journey I've ended up on a Bach 4G on my Rath 3F. ( 31 and 31A leadpipes) I like the diameter, rim profile and the way it "blows" but I'd like to produce a "richer" tone with more definition. Would a slightly shallower mouthpiece do the trick or is it more complicated than that? Any suggestions for a mouthpiece gratefully recieved. I play 2nd trombone in a brass band and 3rd trombone in a big band and I'm looking forward to playing in smaller ensembles.[/quote]
If you move to a Doug Elliott mouthpiece, you can dial in what you want. You might start with a LT102F or 102E. According to Doug's chart, a 4G is approximately a 102/3H. <LINK_TEXT text="http://dougelliottmouthpieces.com/serie ... chart.html">http://dougelliottmouthpieces.com/seriescharts/ltchart.html</LINK_TEXT> And then the shank will depend on if you're using a small or large shank leadpipe, as I think both are available for the 3F.
Having gone through what seems to be a typical mouthpiece journey I've ended up on a Bach 4G on my Rath 3F. ( 31 and 31A leadpipes) I like the diameter, rim profile and the way it "blows" but I'd like to produce a "richer" tone with more definition. Would a slightly shallower mouthpiece do the trick or is it more complicated than that? Any suggestions for a mouthpiece gratefully recieved. I play 2nd trombone in a brass band and 3rd trombone in a big band and I'm looking forward to playing in smaller ensembles.[/quote]
If you move to a Doug Elliott mouthpiece, you can dial in what you want. You might start with a LT102F or 102E. According to Doug's chart, a 4G is approximately a 102/3H. <LINK_TEXT text="http://dougelliottmouthpieces.com/serie ... chart.html">http://dougelliottmouthpieces.com/seriescharts/ltchart.html</LINK_TEXT> And then the shank will depend on if you're using a small or large shank leadpipe, as I think both are available for the 3F.
- BrianJohnston
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Jul 11, 2020
There are lots of mouthpieces like a Bach 4G. The two I can think of right now are Hammond F2 & Hammond 11L.
- CalgaryTbone
- Posts: 1460
- Joined: May 10, 2018
You might also try the Greg Black mouthpieces in the 4.5 or 4 rims (or the 5 sized rim in the NY series). There are various cup depths, and you might want to try something a bit shallower if you're looking for more definition. Greigo has an Artist series that is similar to the Black NY series with many different cups that would go with the 5 rim in that series to be close to a 4G.
I'm playing an Ultimate Brass 4.1, which is roughly a 4G rim with a cup that is more like the one from a 5G - it's working well for me.
Plus one for Doug Elliott's offerings - the 3-piece system allows you to really dial in what works for you.
Jim Scott
I'm playing an Ultimate Brass 4.1, which is roughly a 4G rim with a cup that is more like the one from a 5G - it's working well for me.
Plus one for Doug Elliott's offerings - the 3-piece system allows you to really dial in what works for you.
Jim Scott
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
The problem with the 4G is that it is too deep, same with the 5G. That cup depth can work for some, but in my opinion going shallower is better. Try the Griego Artist or Alessi 5B
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
You can still get a Benge Marcellus mouthpiece which is 4g sized with a shallower cup. You can get a shallower cup for the Doug Elliott mouthpieces, for instance an F+ or F cup. The smaller Laskey-Alessi solo piece should work as well.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
I have a FAXX 4G which I sometimes use in 2nd trombone in a big playing section but usually prefer the DE LT 102 / F+ / G8 setup. I find it just easier to centre and maintain a clear sound on that DE setup.
The FAXX is sufficiently different to some Bach 4G I’ve tried to justify trying it if you like that general size if you can borrow one. They’re pretty reasonably priced as well.
The FAXX is sufficiently different to some Bach 4G I’ve tried to justify trying it if you like that general size if you can borrow one. They’re pretty reasonably priced as well.
- Doug_Elliott
- Posts: 4155
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
Benge Marcellus and Wick 4BL would be reasonable possibilities...
However, as far as I know a Rath 3F is .525 bore and has a small shank receiver - right?
So your choices are more limited.
In my stuff I'd probably recommend XT 102, 102.5, or 103 rims, with F+ cup and G4, which is a small shank.
That would give you the rim size that works for you, with a cup that has a bit more brightness for a "richer" sound and more definition that you want.
And my rims come in 3 different widths if you want a narrower (thinner) rim contour, as many people do. Regular, medium-narrow, and narrow.
However, as far as I know a Rath 3F is .525 bore and has a small shank receiver - right?
So your choices are more limited.
In my stuff I'd probably recommend XT 102, 102.5, or 103 rims, with F+ cup and G4, which is a small shank.
That would give you the rim size that works for you, with a cup that has a bit more brightness for a "richer" sound and more definition that you want.
And my rims come in 3 different widths if you want a narrower (thinner) rim contour, as many people do. Regular, medium-narrow, and narrow.
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
:shuffle: I totally overlooked that it is likely a large a small shank receiver
- Trav1s
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Jul 26, 2018
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
I should have made clear that the leadpipes are 31L and 31AL and therefore have large bore receivers . Thank you all for your advice and suggestions so far .
- LIBrassCo
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Feb 24, 2019
Our Eon 550 is a good fit for what you're looking for.
https://www.librassco.com/eon-series-tenor-trombone
https://www.librassco.com/eon-series-tenor-trombone
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
What’s wrong with matching a Rath mouthpiece to your Rath trombone?
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
I have got a Rath 6.5 . It’s a good mouthpiece, especially on my 0.500 bore. I feel it doesn’t give me what I need on the R3F. I had a Rath 5 on trial for a long time and , again, a good mouthpiece but not quite the right “fit”.
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
Did you try both regular and lightweight?
Also if you are looking at 4g size you’d want the equivalent Rath rim size.
Also if you are looking at 4g size you’d want the equivalent Rath rim size.
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
Regular and lightweight. I had a 5 then because I hadn’t properly settled on the 4G. I agree that I should at least try a Rath 4
- Slidennis
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Jan 08, 2019
[quote="NotATrumpet"]Regular and lightweight. I had a 5 then because I hadn’t properly settled on the 4G. I agree that I should at least try a Rath 4[/quote]
No.
Do you like light blank mouthpieces or heavy blank ones? Stable sound, or colourful?
I'm currently liking a 5G for compactness, and a 4G for freeblowingness and liveliness (not working well at low dynamics...), and really would like to have both characteristics in only one mpc... For the 5 size, Bach makes the 5GS, but for the 4 size, where is the 4 GS, other than some DE combinations?
No.
Do you like light blank mouthpieces or heavy blank ones? Stable sound, or colourful?
I'm currently liking a 5G for compactness, and a 4G for freeblowingness and liveliness (not working well at low dynamics...), and really would like to have both characteristics in only one mpc... For the 5 size, Bach makes the 5GS, but for the 4 size, where is the 4 GS, other than some DE combinations?
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
Slidennis. I know what you mean when you describe the 5G and 4G characteristics. As for heavy or lightweight blanks - Having tried both I generally prefer the standard weight.
- Slidennis
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Jan 08, 2019
According to this Doug Elliott chart : <LINK_TEXT text="http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html">http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/seriescharts/ltchart.html</LINK_TEXT> , the only in the middle of 5G and 4G found here is the Giardinelli Symphony T, or his LT101 G8, the Benge Marcellus being not foo far from it...
For the time being, I'm on a Doug Elliott LT100 F8, only for endurance in the high register for some first parts in a big wind ensemble, "Phantom of the Opera" and the likes... :?
This with a Conn 8H a la Jey Friedman, with a dual bore slide .547/.562 (straight tbone)
I tried a Schilke 51B (Jey mpc) with it, not bad, but not as good as the DE combo (for me)...
The Schilke 51B needs to be paired to a very resonant horn, otherwise I feel it is incredibly bland... The Yamaha 51B is livelier, I think...
Those are shallower than a 5G, let's say a better Bach 6.5 A (large shank)
Otherwise, a plain Bach 5G (or generic, GEWA CUP 5G) is ok, a very good compromise for most of what I need to play, I just have to do the right amount of work on it tho make it work the way I want.
My 2 cents... hope it helps...
For the time being, I'm on a Doug Elliott LT100 F8, only for endurance in the high register for some first parts in a big wind ensemble, "Phantom of the Opera" and the likes... :?
This with a Conn 8H a la Jey Friedman, with a dual bore slide .547/.562 (straight tbone)
I tried a Schilke 51B (Jey mpc) with it, not bad, but not as good as the DE combo (for me)...
The Schilke 51B needs to be paired to a very resonant horn, otherwise I feel it is incredibly bland... The Yamaha 51B is livelier, I think...
Those are shallower than a 5G, let's say a better Bach 6.5 A (large shank)
Otherwise, a plain Bach 5G (or generic, GEWA CUP 5G) is ok, a very good compromise for most of what I need to play, I just have to do the right amount of work on it tho make it work the way I want.
My 2 cents... hope it helps...
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
[quote="Slidennis"]According to this Doug Elliott chart : <LINK_TEXT text="http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html">http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/seriescharts/ltchart.html</LINK_TEXT> , the only in the middle of 5G and 4G found here is the Giardinelli Symphony T, or his LT101 G8, the Benge Marcellus being not foo far from it...
For the time being, I'm on a Doug Elliott LT100 F8, only for endurance in the high register for some first parts in a big wind ensemble, "Phantom of the Opera" and the likes... :?
This with a Conn 8H a la Jey Friedman, with a dual bore slide .547/.562 (straight tbone)
I tried a Schilke 51B (Jey mpc) with it, not bad, but not as good as the DE combo (for me)...
The Schilke 51B needs to be paired to a very resonant horn, otherwise I feel it is incredibly bland... The Yamaha 51B is livelier, I think...
Those are shallower than a 5G, let's say a better Bach 6.5 A (large shank)
Otherwise, a plain Bach 5G (or generic, GEWA CUP 5G) is ok, a very good compromise for most of what I need to play, I just have to do the right amount of work on it tho make it work the way I want.
My 2 cents... hope it helps...[/quote]
For the time being, I'm on a Doug Elliott LT100 F8, only for endurance in the high register for some first parts in a big wind ensemble, "Phantom of the Opera" and the likes... :?
This with a Conn 8H a la Jey Friedman, with a dual bore slide .547/.562 (straight tbone)
I tried a Schilke 51B (Jey mpc) with it, not bad, but not as good as the DE combo (for me)...
The Schilke 51B needs to be paired to a very resonant horn, otherwise I feel it is incredibly bland... The Yamaha 51B is livelier, I think...
Those are shallower than a 5G, let's say a better Bach 6.5 A (large shank)
Otherwise, a plain Bach 5G (or generic, GEWA CUP 5G) is ok, a very good compromise for most of what I need to play, I just have to do the right amount of work on it tho make it work the way I want.
My 2 cents... hope it helps...[/quote]
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
Thanks, Slidennis.
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
Have you tried different rim widths and shapes? For some people, the width of the rim and its shape (flatter, standard, more rounded, etc.) can significantly change the response and sound of a mouthpiece, even with the same inner diamter.
- JohntheTheologian
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Apr 12, 2018
Marcinckiewicz 4 would also be an option.
Roughly 4 sized rim-- you have to disregard Marc's specs because they don't measure at the same spot as everyone else does-- but with a shallow cup. Works well on large bore tenor for me.
Roughly 4 sized rim-- you have to disregard Marc's specs because they don't measure at the same spot as everyone else does-- but with a shallow cup. Works well on large bore tenor for me.
- Cmillar
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
FWIW
I have a Benge-Marcellus, but I play all the time using a DE LTN103.
If it was possible, I could probably screw the Benge rim onto the cup instead of the LTN103 and not notice any difference in rim size and feel at all.
I have a Benge-Marcellus, but I play all the time using a DE LTN103.
If it was possible, I could probably screw the Benge rim onto the cup instead of the LTN103 and not notice any difference in rim size and feel at all.
- NotATrumpet
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Jan 07, 2025
Thanks to all for your replies.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="BrianJohnston"]There are lots of mouthpieces like a Bach 4G. The two I can think of right now are Hammond F2 & Hammond 11L.[/quote]
Good suggestion. Actually a Hammond 11L works great as a substitute for a 4G. In other posts I have talked down all the Hammond L-sizes because on smaller bores with small shanks which I normally play (.525 and smaller) they make no point to me, they don't make the sound I want on those horns easier (13L,12L). I like .525 a lot more with 12M or 12MXL. The fuller sound I get from them makes sense. Now in case of a real large symphony model I find that it is a completely different thing. I now need to revalue the large shank Hammond 11L I own. It fits my Schilke ST20/Hagmann tenor with the largests of the three available leadpipes very well. It becomes a lush sound and is a bit easier blow than a Bach 4G.
/Tom
Good suggestion. Actually a Hammond 11L works great as a substitute for a 4G. In other posts I have talked down all the Hammond L-sizes because on smaller bores with small shanks which I normally play (.525 and smaller) they make no point to me, they don't make the sound I want on those horns easier (13L,12L). I like .525 a lot more with 12M or 12MXL. The fuller sound I get from them makes sense. Now in case of a real large symphony model I find that it is a completely different thing. I now need to revalue the large shank Hammond 11L I own. It fits my Schilke ST20/Hagmann tenor with the largests of the three available leadpipes very well. It becomes a lush sound and is a bit easier blow than a Bach 4G.
/Tom
- Kbiggs
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Mar 24, 2018
I know the OP has found an alternate for a 4G.
I was wondering whether anyone has tried the Griego Oft Classic or Omega 4 mouthpieces. Are they also a good alternative?
I was wondering whether anyone has tried the Griego Oft Classic or Omega 4 mouthpieces. Are they also a good alternative?
- Slidehamilton
- Posts: 176
- Joined: May 05, 2018
I would like to recommend Warburton 4G's, nice mouthpiece's! To me, it's like a better version of a Bach. He has lots of other good choices as well.