Why practice? Why get better?
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
If you're an adult and are not trying to take the professional music world by storm, what's the motivation to get better? Is there any? The "diminishing returns" theory dictates that at some point every increment of improvement gets harder and harder, the better you get. So, why bother?
Do you bother? Why?
Do you bother? Why?
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
When I was in college I suffered from alcoholism and BPAD, both untreated/ unchecked. It has taken a long time but those are under control. Now I am in my 50s and have the time and energy to rededicate myself. I owe it to myself and my God to pursue music and trombone. I have made more progress in the last few years then at any other time in my life. That is my motivation.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom
/Tom
- dbwhitaker
- Posts: 196
- Joined: May 16, 2019
This article was influential in getting me to start playing trombone again. (Impending empty nest status played a part, too.)
Better Aging Through Practice, Practice, Practice
"Find something — something new, something difficult — to immerse yourself in and improve at."
Gift link: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/01/opin ... =url-share">https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/01/opinion/better-aging-through-practice-practice-practice.html?unlocked_article_code=1.nk4.o-Si.r2Ka-1llViht&smid=url-share</LINK_TEXT>
Better Aging Through Practice, Practice, Practice
"Find something — something new, something difficult — to immerse yourself in and improve at."
Gift link: <LINK_TEXT text="https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/01/opin ... =url-share">https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/01/opinion/better-aging-through-practice-practice-practice.html?unlocked_article_code=1.nk4.o-Si.r2Ka-1llViht&smid=url-share</LINK_TEXT>
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="imsevimse"]Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
Why do anything?
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- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="263551" time="1736365976" user_id="3173">
Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from time with family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
</QUOTE>
Then do that something else. Are you at a crossroad or is this a legitimate ask? Play trombone because you love it and because your life will lack meaning without it.
Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from time with family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
</QUOTE>
Then do that something else. Are you at a crossroad or is this a legitimate ask? Play trombone because you love it and because your life will lack meaning without it.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I'm trying to get better because I want to be the best colleague, performer, and teacher that I can be. I also enjoy the process of practice immensely.
I can't control how others feel about my playing and practice, so I don't worry about it as much. I honestly probably have lost work from it, but my art is for me and the people in the audience that I perform for, no matter how large or small.
I can't control how others feel about my playing and practice, so I don't worry about it as much. I honestly probably have lost work from it, but my art is for me and the people in the audience that I perform for, no matter how large or small.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="norbie2018"]Then do that something else. Are you at a crossroad or is this a legitimate ask? Play trombone because you love it and because your life will lack meaning without it.[/quote]
This question isn't about playing trombone. Lots of folks play trombone and don't worry about getting better, or give only weak and passing service to the notion. Many are happy with wherever they are at, and have no desire to improve.
Real improvement takes tremendous dedication. Daily practice, sometimes several hours a day, devotion to it such that it takes priority over other life activities. It's a huge undertaking. Why do that unless you're hoping to land a major symphony gig or take NYC or LA by storm?
This question isn't about playing trombone. Lots of folks play trombone and don't worry about getting better, or give only weak and passing service to the notion. Many are happy with wherever they are at, and have no desire to improve.
Real improvement takes tremendous dedication. Daily practice, sometimes several hours a day, devotion to it such that it takes priority over other life activities. It's a huge undertaking. Why do that unless you're hoping to land a major symphony gig or take NYC or LA by storm?
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
Maybe you don't mean this exactly (there's a lot of ideas and arguments that you seem to be setting up), but "Why do something unless you're going to get paid for it?" That's a very interesting and capitalistic framing of the idea.
Sometimes we do things just to be artists or human beings exploring our own capabilities, irregardless of fame or fortune. Not everything has to be a hustle or done with the idea of monetizing everything.
It's a little difficult to tell exactly what you're going for here, in all honesty. But I hope the answers that you're getting are interesting enough.
Sometimes we do things just to be artists or human beings exploring our own capabilities, irregardless of fame or fortune. Not everything has to be a hustle or done with the idea of monetizing everything.
It's a little difficult to tell exactly what you're going for here, in all honesty. But I hope the answers that you're getting are interesting enough.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="263555" time="1736367161" user_id="2978">
Then do that something else. Are you at a crossroad or is this a legitimate ask? Play trombone because you love it and because your life will lack meaning without it.[/quote]
This question isn't about playing trombone. Lots of folks play trombone and don't worry about getting better, or give only weak and passing service to the notion. Many are happy with wherever they are at, and have no desire to improve.
Real improvement takes tremendous dedication. Daily practice, sometimes several hours a day, devotion to it such that it takes priority over other life activities. It's a huge undertaking. Why do that unless you're hoping to land a major symphony gig or take NYC or LA by storm?
</QUOTE>
Because it is a calling. God calls you to do so. That's why I'll spend 2 hours tonight on warm-up, daily routine, arban, arban scale patterns, lyrical studies, and brass band music. It is also a personal challenge. I cannot believe a person ever gets there, to the point where there is nothing left to do. That is just an excuse to be lazy.
Then do that something else. Are you at a crossroad or is this a legitimate ask? Play trombone because you love it and because your life will lack meaning without it.[/quote]
This question isn't about playing trombone. Lots of folks play trombone and don't worry about getting better, or give only weak and passing service to the notion. Many are happy with wherever they are at, and have no desire to improve.
Real improvement takes tremendous dedication. Daily practice, sometimes several hours a day, devotion to it such that it takes priority over other life activities. It's a huge undertaking. Why do that unless you're hoping to land a major symphony gig or take NYC or LA by storm?
</QUOTE>
Because it is a calling. God calls you to do so. That's why I'll spend 2 hours tonight on warm-up, daily routine, arban, arban scale patterns, lyrical studies, and brass band music. It is also a personal challenge. I cannot believe a person ever gets there, to the point where there is nothing left to do. That is just an excuse to be lazy.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="WilliamLang"]Maybe you don't mean this exactly (there's a lot of ideas and arguments that you seem to be setting up), but "Why do something unless you're going to get paid for it?" That's a very interesting and capitalistic framing of the idea.
Sometimes we do things just to be artists or human beings exploring our own capabilities, irregardless of fame or fortune. Not everything has to be a hustle or done with the idea of monetizing everything.
It's a little difficult to tell exactly what you're going for here, in all honesty. But I hope the answers that you're getting are interesting enough.[/quote]
Naw, I'm not setting up any arguments, and this isn't capitalistic.
Sometimes we do things just to be artists or human beings exploring our own capabilities, irregardless of fame or fortune. Not everything has to be a hustle or done with the idea of monetizing everything.
It's a little difficult to tell exactly what you're going for here, in all honesty. But I hope the answers that you're getting are interesting enough.[/quote]
Naw, I'm not setting up any arguments, and this isn't capitalistic.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
:tenorclef: :alto: :trebleclef:
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="harrisonreed"]200w (2).gif[/quote]
And Harry immediately demonstrated why I didn't want to write that. So I deleted it.
And Harry immediately demonstrated why I didn't want to write that. So I deleted it.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
Most professionals, and a lot of non-professionals are better than the music they are given, at least on a technical and surface level. But what we add to the music and who we play for matters. A lot of people avoid being "too good" for the gigs by not pursuing solo projects or recordings, and by giving the appearance, regardless of what they feel in their inner life, of being there just for the job.
It's a complicated question. In my freelancing experience, some people are better at keeping their heads down about it, and some people just get away with it.
It's a complicated question. In my freelancing experience, some people are better at keeping their heads down about it, and some people just get away with it.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="harrisonreed" post_id="263566" time="1736369144" user_id="3642">
200w (2).gif[/quote]
And Harry immediately demonstrated why I didn't want to write that. So I deleted it.
</QUOTE>
Are you that fragile? He's very inconsiderate- Harry has been a jerk to me previously, so I know how it feels - but how are you ever going to get to the bottom of this if you're not willing to be vulnerable?
200w (2).gif[/quote]
And Harry immediately demonstrated why I didn't want to write that. So I deleted it.
</QUOTE>
Are you that fragile? He's very inconsiderate- Harry has been a jerk to me previously, so I know how it feels - but how are you ever going to get to the bottom of this if you're not willing to be vulnerable?
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I get why it's hard or honestly not worth being honest and vulnerable on these forums as a rule of thumb. Anyone can see them, our industry is smaller than it seems, and you can't control how they'll interpret what you write.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="WilliamLang"]I get why it's hard or honestly not worth being honest and vulnerable on these forums as a rule of thumb. Anyone can see them, our industry is smaller than it seems, and you can't control how they'll interpret what you write.[/quote]
Well put. It is very hard to be vulnerable on a public forum. I hope the OP gets her answers somehow.
Well put. It is very hard to be vulnerable on a public forum. I hope the OP gets her answers somehow.
- aoemusic
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Apr 12, 2024
Yeah, once you reach a certain point one really doesn't need to prioritize practising as they once did. I remember freshman or softmore year I would be going into the practice rooms 3 or 4 times a week! But now that I'm a junior I feel the need to focus on my future. Now I spend all that time on productive hobbies (currently starting a YouTube channel and investing in various crypto and AI!). I still make time to help out the younger generation though! While I may not be section leader I am a well-respected upperclassman and I give plenty of tips to the freshies and sophmores!
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="norbie2018"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="263568" time="1736369338" user_id="16498">
And Harry immediately demonstrated why I didn't want to write that. So I deleted it.[/quote]
Are you that fragile? He's very inconsiderate- Harry has been a jerk to me previously, so I know how it feels - but how are you ever going to get to the bottom of this if you're not willing to be vulnerable?
</QUOTE>
You'll have to jog my memory on what I said to you. I took the gif down, but Dana toes the line just as much as I do here. She and I got over her tearing my career to shreds in the past and made up.
Sometimes Dana (Dana you're here, let's be honest and vulnerable together) occasionally says stuff here that completely flabbergasts me. In any case, what I posted the gif in response to was another example, but it's gone now.
Dana is an absolute pro on the trombone, far better in the jazz realm than I could dream to be, and probably superior in the classical would to me as well. She's cool.
She also calls it like she sees it. I do that too. So that's sometimes a bad combo.
Tons of respect to her making in the past as a pro and the awesome recordings she's done. Olive branch given
And Harry immediately demonstrated why I didn't want to write that. So I deleted it.[/quote]
Are you that fragile? He's very inconsiderate- Harry has been a jerk to me previously, so I know how it feels - but how are you ever going to get to the bottom of this if you're not willing to be vulnerable?
</QUOTE>
You'll have to jog my memory on what I said to you. I took the gif down, but Dana toes the line just as much as I do here. She and I got over her tearing my career to shreds in the past and made up.
Sometimes Dana (Dana you're here, let's be honest and vulnerable together) occasionally says stuff here that completely flabbergasts me. In any case, what I posted the gif in response to was another example, but it's gone now.
Dana is an absolute pro on the trombone, far better in the jazz realm than I could dream to be, and probably superior in the classical would to me as well. She's cool.
She also calls it like she sees it. I do that too. So that's sometimes a bad combo.
Tons of respect to her making in the past as a pro and the awesome recordings she's done. Olive branch given
- BGuttman
- Posts: 7368
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I find two reasons to practice:
1. Maintain my current skill set. This can be a relatively short series of technical exercises to just maintain where you are.
2. Improve some aspect of my playing.
Clearly Dana can't identify any aspect of her playing that needs work, so the second reason is moot. I find there is always some thing I need to improve, but now that I am in retirement I don't have as much impetus to work on it. My need now is to improve my reading of C treble clef, which I do with my fake books.
Boils down to: I practice to maintain what's left of my skills. I practice one aspect for improvement because I can see some benefit from getting better.
If there is no tangible benefit from practicing, I can understand why you may not want to practice. If you get no benefit from practice, be it enjoyment or improvement, then something else is a more appropriate use of your time. Maybe take up carburetor rebuilding ;)
1. Maintain my current skill set. This can be a relatively short series of technical exercises to just maintain where you are.
2. Improve some aspect of my playing.
Clearly Dana can't identify any aspect of her playing that needs work, so the second reason is moot. I find there is always some thing I need to improve, but now that I am in retirement I don't have as much impetus to work on it. My need now is to improve my reading of C treble clef, which I do with my fake books.
Boils down to: I practice to maintain what's left of my skills. I practice one aspect for improvement because I can see some benefit from getting better.
If there is no tangible benefit from practicing, I can understand why you may not want to practice. If you get no benefit from practice, be it enjoyment or improvement, then something else is a more appropriate use of your time. Maybe take up carburetor rebuilding ;)
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="harrisonreed"]<QUOTE author="norbie2018" post_id="263571" time="1736369581" user_id="2978">
Are you that fragile? He's very inconsiderate- Harry has been a jerk to me previously, so I know how it feels - but how are you ever going to get to the bottom of this if you're not willing to be vulnerable?[/quote]
You'll have to jog my memory on what I said to you. I took the gif down, but Dana toes the line just as much as I do here. She and I got over her tearing my career to shreds in the past and made up.
Sometimes Dana (Dana you're here, let's be honest and vulnerable together) occasionally says stuff here that completely flabbergasts me. In any case, what I posted the gif in response to was another example, but it's gone now.
Dana is an absolute pro on the trombone, far better in the jazz realm than I could dream to be, and probably superior in the classical would to me as well. She's cool.
She also calls it like she sees it. I do that too. So that's sometimes a bad combo.
Tons of respect to her making in the past as a pro and the awesome recordings she's done. Olive branch given
</QUOTE>
I don't remember what you said to me a couple of years ago, I just remember the way I felt.
Peace.
Are you that fragile? He's very inconsiderate- Harry has been a jerk to me previously, so I know how it feels - but how are you ever going to get to the bottom of this if you're not willing to be vulnerable?[/quote]
You'll have to jog my memory on what I said to you. I took the gif down, but Dana toes the line just as much as I do here. She and I got over her tearing my career to shreds in the past and made up.
Sometimes Dana (Dana you're here, let's be honest and vulnerable together) occasionally says stuff here that completely flabbergasts me. In any case, what I posted the gif in response to was another example, but it's gone now.
Dana is an absolute pro on the trombone, far better in the jazz realm than I could dream to be, and probably superior in the classical would to me as well. She's cool.
She also calls it like she sees it. I do that too. So that's sometimes a bad combo.
Tons of respect to her making in the past as a pro and the awesome recordings she's done. Olive branch given
</QUOTE>
I don't remember what you said to me a couple of years ago, I just remember the way I felt.
Peace.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]This question isn't about playing trombone.[/quote]
Exactly. It's the sort of question you might toss at an undergraduate class in psychology or philosophy, maybe on the first day of class -- mostly just to get the members to enter into some thought and debate. :)
Exactly. It's the sort of question you might toss at an undergraduate class in psychology or philosophy, maybe on the first day of class -- mostly just to get the members to enter into some thought and debate. :)
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="263551" time="1736365976" user_id="3173">
Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
</QUOTE>
I hope my answer wasn't offending, it wasn't meant to be, it was sincere. Since you now shared more I will do that too.
-To play trombone is my passion and it is not something that necessary needs to involve other people, but if they are nice it can be great bonus. Many retired pros I know keep practice and I suppose it is because they always have. Some sell their instruments first day. This is different and I suppose they were finished the day they retired. To me it's a way of living my life.
- I identify aspects of my playing that I want to do better.
- I do not want to loose the skills I have.
- I meet my friends in music and do not want to sound bad when we meet.
Something's that has nothing to do with it:
- I don't practice to get me into another place, besides moving me mentality into another better place
Note:
- I've never been so good that it would exclude me from a call to play in a band, but other things have, like age-differences and not being hip enough and the fact that I have a well paid job outside music, this isn't well thought of among professionals; "Dont call him he doesn't need the money". I've heard rumours that some pros have said this about me.
/Tom
Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
</QUOTE>
I hope my answer wasn't offending, it wasn't meant to be, it was sincere. Since you now shared more I will do that too.
-To play trombone is my passion and it is not something that necessary needs to involve other people, but if they are nice it can be great bonus. Many retired pros I know keep practice and I suppose it is because they always have. Some sell their instruments first day. This is different and I suppose they were finished the day they retired. To me it's a way of living my life.
- I identify aspects of my playing that I want to do better.
- I do not want to loose the skills I have.
- I meet my friends in music and do not want to sound bad when we meet.
Something's that has nothing to do with it:
- I don't practice to get me into another place, besides moving me mentality into another better place
Note:
- I've never been so good that it would exclude me from a call to play in a band, but other things have, like age-differences and not being hip enough and the fact that I have a well paid job outside music, this isn't well thought of among professionals; "Dont call him he doesn't need the money". I've heard rumours that some pros have said this about me.
/Tom
- MrHCinDE
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Jul 01, 2018
Some motivations to improve for me as an amateur who generally plays at a solid to good level relative to the mainly amateur groups I play in are:
- Access to more guest playing opportunities (I don’t have time for more regular groups but really like playing those gigs with either sight reading or one/two rehearsals. It’s easier for me to flexibly find 30m every day or two for home practice than commit to regular rehearsals so counterintuitively I practice more to play less but with more variety).
- Relatively recent participation in smaller ensembles, in those there’s nowhere to hide and you have to be confident on every note, it’s much more demanding for me than large ensemble playing and I didn’t do much small group playing in my younger days so this is still a big area I want to improve.
- Using a totally different part of my brain to my day job, focus and mindfulness to switch off from work.
- Competitive nature, against my own expectations and compared with those sitting around me.
- Although I don’t rely on it and the pros may hate me for ‘stealing’ gigs, it’s nice to get a bit of cash for the horn fund, the better I can play, the more opportunities arise.
- Access to more guest playing opportunities (I don’t have time for more regular groups but really like playing those gigs with either sight reading or one/two rehearsals. It’s easier for me to flexibly find 30m every day or two for home practice than commit to regular rehearsals so counterintuitively I practice more to play less but with more variety).
- Relatively recent participation in smaller ensembles, in those there’s nowhere to hide and you have to be confident on every note, it’s much more demanding for me than large ensemble playing and I didn’t do much small group playing in my younger days so this is still a big area I want to improve.
- Using a totally different part of my brain to my day job, focus and mindfulness to switch off from work.
- Competitive nature, against my own expectations and compared with those sitting around me.
- Although I don’t rely on it and the pros may hate me for ‘stealing’ gigs, it’s nice to get a bit of cash for the horn fund, the better I can play, the more opportunities arise.
- WGWTR180
- Posts: 2152
- Joined: Sep 04, 2019
I practice for myself as I don't want to sound poorly to myself or on a gig. If you don't want to don't. There aren't enough gigs or hours in the day to worry about what someone else does.
- TomWest
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Apr 04, 2023
Diminishing returns for the rewards of playing a musical instrument at an advanced level. Look, I’m not a believer in that. That’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one. I think you should rethink that. You are SO much better than that. You edited your post, but you can’t get away with that with me, I read it. I started thinking did you have a bad practice? You couldn’t quite get something that you’re working on?
Someone said something? I got news for you. It’s lonely at the top. Get back to work.
Someone said something? I got news for you. It’s lonely at the top. Get back to work.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="TomWest"]Diminishing returns for the rewards of playing a musical instrument at an advanced level. Look, I’m not a believer in that. That’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one. I think you should rethink that. You are SO much better than that. You edited your post, but you can’t get away with that with me, I read it. I started thinking did you have a bad practice? You couldn’t quite get something that you’re working on?
Someone said something? I got news for you. It’s lonely at the top. Get back to work.[/quote]
Sir, yes sir!!! :)
Someone said something? I got news for you. It’s lonely at the top. Get back to work.[/quote]
Sir, yes sir!!! :)
- trombonebob
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Jun 16, 2024
It’s a good question. I have had the pleasure (!?) of conducting a community wind band where practice, amongst the many musicians, was a dirty word. It used to frustrate the he’ll out of me how so many retired ladies and gents couldn’t find some time to get their instrument out of its box between weekly rehearsals.
Anyway, why does any human spend their life trying to perfect something that is intrinsically un-perfectable. It’s more of a philosophical question really. If it is important for you on a level where you must strive to improve, then go for it. It will in some way make you a better person (or trombonist!).
For me, I stopped playing brass 30 years ago and devoted my time to stringy things. I’ve returned and want to achieve some of what I had all those years ago. It’ll be very unlikely I’ll get there but I’m having fun trying. The trombone also gives me a chance to play genre that I couldn’t before so I’ve got lots of personal challenges.
So at the moment I’m doing between one and two hours a day, plus playing in a big band and an orchestra. It’s hard work but I’m loving it.
Anyway, why does any human spend their life trying to perfect something that is intrinsically un-perfectable. It’s more of a philosophical question really. If it is important for you on a level where you must strive to improve, then go for it. It will in some way make you a better person (or trombonist!).
For me, I stopped playing brass 30 years ago and devoted my time to stringy things. I’ve returned and want to achieve some of what I had all those years ago. It’ll be very unlikely I’ll get there but I’m having fun trying. The trombone also gives me a chance to play genre that I couldn’t before so I’ve got lots of personal challenges.
So at the moment I’m doing between one and two hours a day, plus playing in a big band and an orchestra. It’s hard work but I’m loving it.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="trombonebob"]...why does any human spend their life trying to perfect something that is intrinsically un-perfectable.[/quote]
Or the flip side of that is, as the obsessed Kobe Bryant said, "If you're not trying to be the best, then what the hell are you even doing here?"
Or the flip side of that is, as the obsessed Kobe Bryant said, "If you're not trying to be the best, then what the hell are you even doing here?"
- hyperbolica
- Posts: 3990
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Practice with age is more of a maintenance issue than improving. I've lost 60%+ of what I had. Practice just helps me hold on to what I've got a little longer. Plus, even beyond maintenance, I enjoy it, and that's reason enough to keep doing it.
- Fidbone
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Apr 24, 2018
To stay ahead of the competition <EMOJI seq="1f90c-1f3fc" tseq="1f90c-1f3fc">🤌🏼</EMOJI>
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
[quote="WilliamLang"]Sometimes we do things just to be artists or human beings exploring our own capabilities[/quote]
This. Art, and reaching new goals. It's also very fulfilling to share what we accomplish, but not necessary.
This. Art, and reaching new goals. It's also very fulfilling to share what we accomplish, but not necessary.
- imsevimse
- Posts: 1765
- Joined: Apr 29, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="trombonebob" post_id="263611" time="1736428070" user_id="18189">
...why does any human spend their life trying to perfect something that is intrinsically un-perfectable.[/quote]
Or the flip side of that is, as the obsessed Kobe Bryant said, "If you're not trying to be the best, then what the hell are you even doing here?"
</QUOTE>
This might be the way too look at it if you are young and have your whole life ahead and you have chosen a career that demands of you that you need to be the best in the world. There are many good trombone players better than me, but this doesn't mean it's no point for me to have goals with my playing.
The key is understanding what you can control. You can’t dictate the circumstances or the strength of your competition. Some days, you might outshine everyone with ease; other days, you might face someone who surpasses you in every way. That’s why your real competition is always yourself. Strive to be better than you were yesterday. When you do this, you ensure that anyone who outperforms you had to overcome your very best effort—a meaningful achievement for them and no reason for you to feel discouraged.
Even if I don’t win, there’s a quiet victory in surpassing my previous self. Improvement, no matter how small, is worth celebrating. It’s a sign of growth, and in the end, personal growth is the most important victory of all.
I still learn so I'm a winner!
/Tom
...why does any human spend their life trying to perfect something that is intrinsically un-perfectable.[/quote]
Or the flip side of that is, as the obsessed Kobe Bryant said, "If you're not trying to be the best, then what the hell are you even doing here?"
</QUOTE>
This might be the way too look at it if you are young and have your whole life ahead and you have chosen a career that demands of you that you need to be the best in the world. There are many good trombone players better than me, but this doesn't mean it's no point for me to have goals with my playing.
The key is understanding what you can control. You can’t dictate the circumstances or the strength of your competition. Some days, you might outshine everyone with ease; other days, you might face someone who surpasses you in every way. That’s why your real competition is always yourself. Strive to be better than you were yesterday. When you do this, you ensure that anyone who outperforms you had to overcome your very best effort—a meaningful achievement for them and no reason for you to feel discouraged.
Even if I don’t win, there’s a quiet victory in surpassing my previous self. Improvement, no matter how small, is worth celebrating. It’s a sign of growth, and in the end, personal growth is the most important victory of all.
I still learn so I'm a winner!
/Tom
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="imsevimse"]<QUOTE author="tbdana" post_id="263615" time="1736438442" user_id="16498">
Or the flip side of that is, as the obsessed Kobe Bryant said, "If you're not trying to be the best, then what the hell are you even doing here?"[/quote]
This might be the way too look at it if you are young and have your whole life ahead and you have chosen a career that demands of you that you need to be the best in the world. There are many good trombone players better than me, but this doesn't mean it's no point for me to have goals with my playing.
The key is understanding what you can control. You can’t dictate the circumstances or the strength of your competition. Some days, you might outshine everyone with ease; other days, you might face someone who surpasses you in every way. That’s why your real competition is always yourself. Strive to be better than you were yesterday. When you do this, you ensure that anyone who outperforms you had to overcome your very best effort—a meaningful achievement for them and no reason for you to feel discouraged.
Even if I don’t win, there’s a quiet victory in surpassing my previous self. Improvement, no matter how small, is worth celebrating. It’s a sign of growth, and in the end, personal growth is the most important victory of all.
I still learn so I'm a winner!
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Good post. I just want to make clear that by quoting Kobe Bryant I wasn't advocating for that obsession.
I talk about Watrous too much, but here's one more thing: Bill thought of music as a competitive event. Every musician he played with (or against) he had to "beat." If someone played a great solo, he had to "smoke that guy" with his own solo. You can hear this in action every time Bill played with Carl Fontana.
I actually think that's a detriment to the music. Music is art. It's self-expression. It's not competitive, and competition actually harms the creative process. In that way, I think Watrous would have been a much better jazz player if he hadn't been obsessed with "winning" the solos.
Yes, pros have "competition" for work. Some of it actually has to do with who is the better player, but not always.
But, you know, the players who have that "competition" outlook on music do tend to practice harder and get better than those who don't. So I guess it's helpful in a way, so long as you leave that ethic in the practice room and don't bring it into your performance.
Or the flip side of that is, as the obsessed Kobe Bryant said, "If you're not trying to be the best, then what the hell are you even doing here?"[/quote]
This might be the way too look at it if you are young and have your whole life ahead and you have chosen a career that demands of you that you need to be the best in the world. There are many good trombone players better than me, but this doesn't mean it's no point for me to have goals with my playing.
The key is understanding what you can control. You can’t dictate the circumstances or the strength of your competition. Some days, you might outshine everyone with ease; other days, you might face someone who surpasses you in every way. That’s why your real competition is always yourself. Strive to be better than you were yesterday. When you do this, you ensure that anyone who outperforms you had to overcome your very best effort—a meaningful achievement for them and no reason for you to feel discouraged.
Even if I don’t win, there’s a quiet victory in surpassing my previous self. Improvement, no matter how small, is worth celebrating. It’s a sign of growth, and in the end, personal growth is the most important victory of all.
I still learn so I'm a winner!
/Tom
</QUOTE>
Good post. I just want to make clear that by quoting Kobe Bryant I wasn't advocating for that obsession.
I talk about Watrous too much, but here's one more thing: Bill thought of music as a competitive event. Every musician he played with (or against) he had to "beat." If someone played a great solo, he had to "smoke that guy" with his own solo. You can hear this in action every time Bill played with Carl Fontana.
I actually think that's a detriment to the music. Music is art. It's self-expression. It's not competitive, and competition actually harms the creative process. In that way, I think Watrous would have been a much better jazz player if he hadn't been obsessed with "winning" the solos.
Yes, pros have "competition" for work. Some of it actually has to do with who is the better player, but not always.
But, you know, the players who have that "competition" outlook on music do tend to practice harder and get better than those who don't. So I guess it's helpful in a way, so long as you leave that ethic in the practice room and don't bring it into your performance.
- TomInME
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Jan 03, 2024
I think this connects directly to your thread about clean/sloppy playing.
- Savio
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Apr 26, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]If you're an adult and are not trying to take the professional music world by storm, what's the motivation to get better? Is there any? The "diminishing returns" theory dictates that at some point every increment of improvement gets harder and harder, the better you get. So, why bother?
Do you bother? Why?[/quote]
Dana, you love to practice because you love music and your trombone.
Leif
Do you bother? Why?[/quote]
Dana, you love to practice because you love music and your trombone.
Leif
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
I bother because I like practicing. Simple. When I don’t, I'll pack it away and do other things. Happy to go for standstill these days. Any improvement would scare the rest of the section.
- VJOFan
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Apr 06, 2018
In anything involving skill, physical abilities or mental acuity there are only two choices: improvement or backsliding.
There isn’t really stasis. There is just the perceived mean between surges forward and periods of regression.
These days I am much more consistent about my exercise habits than my musical ones. I am living in a perceived mean of health. At closer to 60 than 50, training, as regularly as possible, in a way that pushes my strength and cardio capacity sets me up to endure those periods of illness, injury or life events that inevitably occur and suck health away. Then it’s back to “improvement” to be strong for the next time.
The second thread to this discussion (I’ll call it the Kobe thread) is about the pursuit of excellence or superiority. I see that, unless actually competing and with a reasonable chance at winning (whatever that is in a certain context) , as a negative and damaging impulse.
There is simply no need for the vast majority of people to be the best or even the most developed version of themselves. Pushing for that is a kind of neurosis for anyone who doesn’t have elite capacity. It leads to some sort of break down be it physical or mental.
Full disclosure, this is not theoretical to me. I pushed my running through pain to the point of breaking a foot. My mind set was wrong for what my body could deliver. I’m much healthier and enjoy training much more not trying to be the best or my best. That’s my study of 1, but observing the internet, I think I see evidence of the damage of unrealistic striving.
There isn’t really stasis. There is just the perceived mean between surges forward and periods of regression.
These days I am much more consistent about my exercise habits than my musical ones. I am living in a perceived mean of health. At closer to 60 than 50, training, as regularly as possible, in a way that pushes my strength and cardio capacity sets me up to endure those periods of illness, injury or life events that inevitably occur and suck health away. Then it’s back to “improvement” to be strong for the next time.
The second thread to this discussion (I’ll call it the Kobe thread) is about the pursuit of excellence or superiority. I see that, unless actually competing and with a reasonable chance at winning (whatever that is in a certain context) , as a negative and damaging impulse.
There is simply no need for the vast majority of people to be the best or even the most developed version of themselves. Pushing for that is a kind of neurosis for anyone who doesn’t have elite capacity. It leads to some sort of break down be it physical or mental.
Full disclosure, this is not theoretical to me. I pushed my running through pain to the point of breaking a foot. My mind set was wrong for what my body could deliver. I’m much healthier and enjoy training much more not trying to be the best or my best. That’s my study of 1, but observing the internet, I think I see evidence of the damage of unrealistic striving.
- GabrielRice
- Posts: 1496
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
I don't love practicing enough to do it for its own sake. I'm sure that I'll put the trombone away completely when I retire.
I practice because I love to play with my colleagues, and I want to stay good enough to contribute to every situation and be a musician they can count on.
I practice because I have a responsibility to my students to be able to demonstrate what I'm trying to teach them.
I practice because I love the in-the-moment rush of performing, and I need the facility that comes with consistent practice to be able to focus on the music-making rather than the technique.
I practice because I love to play with my colleagues, and I want to stay good enough to contribute to every situation and be a musician they can count on.
I practice because I have a responsibility to my students to be able to demonstrate what I'm trying to teach them.
I practice because I love the in-the-moment rush of performing, and I need the facility that comes with consistent practice to be able to focus on the music-making rather than the technique.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="VJOFan"]The second thread to this discussion (I’ll call it the Kobe thread) is about the pursuit of excellence or superiority. I see that, unless actually competing and with a reasonable chance at winning (whatever that is in a certain context) , as a negative and damaging impulse.
There is simply no need for the vast majority of people to be the best or even the most developed version of themselves. Pushing for that is a kind of neurosis for anyone who doesn’t have elite capacity. It leads to some sort of break down be it physical or mental.
Full disclosure, this is not theoretical to me. I pushed my running through pain to the point of breaking a foot. My mind set was wrong for what my body could deliver. I’m much healthier and enjoy training much more not trying to be the best or my best. That’s my study of 1, but observing the internet, I think I see evidence of the damage of unrealistic striving.[/quote]
Interesting. I no longer run, but there was a time I was running 100 miles per week, with speed training on Tuesdays, hill training on Thursdays, and 20-mile runs on Saturdays. It took a mindset that was almost obsessive to be able to do that. I didn't break my foot, but over time I damaged my knees and back. At one point I strained my achilles tendon badly enough that I had to stop running for six months, and that kind of broke the "spell" I had gotten myself in to be able to do all that running.
I suppose you can have the same kind of manic obsession with trombone playing, but I don't think there's any serious danger of breaking a lip. :mrgreen:
Personally, I think wanting to be the best version of yourself is laudable. It's something we should all strive for. The world would be a better place if we did. There's an old maxim for runners. It's a TS Elliot quote, and it goes something like this: "Only those who dare to go too far can ever know how far they can go."
You can damage yourself psychologically by giving-in to obsession, but no one is breaking a foot playing trombone. LOL!
This is something for a different thread, but I'm fascinated by geniuses in their fields, by those who extend the boundaries of human achievement whether that be in athletics, science, art, or whatever. I've found a common trait in a great many of them, and it is this: People who are geniuses in one area, who are the best in the world at what they do, very often are completely dysfunctional in other areas of their lives. It's like they have to sacrifice the rest of their lives to be that good in one aspect of it. Like there's only so much competence in a person, and if they spend it all on one thing -- whether it's astrophysics, the 100 meter dash, or trombone playing -- then they have none left for their family life, economic life, health, and relationships.
But I still believe we should all strive to be the best we can be at whatever we are doing. It's about mindfulness; about being completely in the moment and giving 100% of our attention and effort to whatever we are doing at the time. And if you spend a lot of time practicing the trombone mindfully, I think you're trying to be the best trombonist you can be.
And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?
Or something like that.
There is simply no need for the vast majority of people to be the best or even the most developed version of themselves. Pushing for that is a kind of neurosis for anyone who doesn’t have elite capacity. It leads to some sort of break down be it physical or mental.
Full disclosure, this is not theoretical to me. I pushed my running through pain to the point of breaking a foot. My mind set was wrong for what my body could deliver. I’m much healthier and enjoy training much more not trying to be the best or my best. That’s my study of 1, but observing the internet, I think I see evidence of the damage of unrealistic striving.[/quote]
Interesting. I no longer run, but there was a time I was running 100 miles per week, with speed training on Tuesdays, hill training on Thursdays, and 20-mile runs on Saturdays. It took a mindset that was almost obsessive to be able to do that. I didn't break my foot, but over time I damaged my knees and back. At one point I strained my achilles tendon badly enough that I had to stop running for six months, and that kind of broke the "spell" I had gotten myself in to be able to do all that running.
I suppose you can have the same kind of manic obsession with trombone playing, but I don't think there's any serious danger of breaking a lip. :mrgreen:
Personally, I think wanting to be the best version of yourself is laudable. It's something we should all strive for. The world would be a better place if we did. There's an old maxim for runners. It's a TS Elliot quote, and it goes something like this: "Only those who dare to go too far can ever know how far they can go."
You can damage yourself psychologically by giving-in to obsession, but no one is breaking a foot playing trombone. LOL!
This is something for a different thread, but I'm fascinated by geniuses in their fields, by those who extend the boundaries of human achievement whether that be in athletics, science, art, or whatever. I've found a common trait in a great many of them, and it is this: People who are geniuses in one area, who are the best in the world at what they do, very often are completely dysfunctional in other areas of their lives. It's like they have to sacrifice the rest of their lives to be that good in one aspect of it. Like there's only so much competence in a person, and if they spend it all on one thing -- whether it's astrophysics, the 100 meter dash, or trombone playing -- then they have none left for their family life, economic life, health, and relationships.
But I still believe we should all strive to be the best we can be at whatever we are doing. It's about mindfulness; about being completely in the moment and giving 100% of our attention and effort to whatever we are doing at the time. And if you spend a lot of time practicing the trombone mindfully, I think you're trying to be the best trombonist you can be.
And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?
Or something like that.
- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
"And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?" (ed. added quotations)
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.
- norbie2018
- Posts: 1051
- Joined: Apr 05, 2018
[quote="WilliamLang"]"And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?" (ed. added quotations)
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
This.
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
This.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]I don't love practicing enough to do it for its own sake. I'm sure that I'll put the trombone away completely when I retire.
I practice because I love to play with my colleagues, and I want to stay good enough to contribute to every situation and be a musician they can count on.
I practice because I have a responsibility to my students to be able to demonstrate what I'm trying to teach them.
I practice because I love the in-the-moment rush of performing, and I need the facility that comes with consistent practice to be able to focus on the music-making rather than the technique.[/quote]
Very nicely put Gabe. I agree with all that.
I practice because I love to play with my colleagues, and I want to stay good enough to contribute to every situation and be a musician they can count on.
I practice because I have a responsibility to my students to be able to demonstrate what I'm trying to teach them.
I practice because I love the in-the-moment rush of performing, and I need the facility that comes with consistent practice to be able to focus on the music-making rather than the technique.[/quote]
Very nicely put Gabe. I agree with all that.
- tbdana
- Posts: 1928
- Joined: Apr 08, 2023
[quote="WilliamLang"]"And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?" (ed. added quotations)
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
Those sounds might not be all that beautiful if you suck and don’t care that you suck. And remember, we modified Kobe’s quote to refer to the best you can be, not, like, the best in the universe.
Also recall that I specifically disapproved of the notion of music as a competitive event.
I think you may have twisted my intent.
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
Those sounds might not be all that beautiful if you suck and don’t care that you suck. And remember, we modified Kobe’s quote to refer to the best you can be, not, like, the best in the universe.
Also recall that I specifically disapproved of the notion of music as a competitive event.
I think you may have twisted my intent.
- blast
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Mar 22, 2018
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="VJOFan" post_id="263751" time="1736608113" user_id="2988">
The second thread to this discussion (I’ll call it the Kobe thread) is about the pursuit of excellence or superiority. I see that, unless actually competing and with a reasonable chance at winning (whatever that is in a certain context) , as a negative and damaging impulse.
There is simply no need for the vast majority of people to be the best or even the most developed version of themselves. Pushing for that is a kind of neurosis for anyone who doesn’t have elite capacity. It leads to some sort of break down be it physical or mental.
Full disclosure, this is not theoretical to me. I pushed my running through pain to the point of breaking a foot. My mind set was wrong for what my body could deliver. I’m much healthier and enjoy training much more not trying to be the best or my best. That’s my study of 1, but observing the internet, I think I see evidence of the damage of unrealistic striving.[/quote]
Interesting. I no longer run, but there was a time I was running 100 miles per week, with speed training on Tuesdays, hill training on Thursdays, and 20-mile runs on Saturdays. It took a mindset that was almost obsessive to be able to do that. I didn't break my foot, but over time I damaged my knees and back. At one point I strained my achilles tendon badly enough that I had to stop running for six months, and that kind of broke the "spell" I had gotten myself in to be able to do all that running.
I suppose you can have the same kind of manic obsession with trombone playing, but I don't think there's any serious danger of breaking a lip. :mrgreen:
Personally, I think wanting to be the best version of yourself is laudable. It's something we should all strive for. The world would be a better place if we did. There's an old maxim for runners. It's a TS Elliot quote, and it goes something like this: "Only those who dare to go too far can ever know how far they can go."
You can damage yourself psychologically by giving-in to obsession, but no one is breaking a foot playing trombone. LOL!
This is something for a different thread, but I'm fascinated by geniuses in their fields, by those who extend the boundaries of human achievement whether that be in athletics, science, art, or whatever. I've found a common trait in a great many of them, and it is this: People who are geniuses in one area, who are the best in the world at what they do, very often are completely dysfunctional in other areas of their lives. It's like they have to sacrifice the rest of their lives to be that good in one aspect of it. Like there's only so much competence in a person, and if they spend it all on one thing -- whether it's astrophysics, the 100 meter dash, or trombone playing -- then they have none left for their family life, economic life, health, and relationships.
But I still believe we should all strive to be the best we can be at whatever we are doing. It's about mindfulness; about being completely in the moment and giving 100% of our attention and effort to whatever we are doing at the time. And if you spend a lot of time practicing the trombone mindfully, I think you're trying to be the best trombonist you can be.
And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?
Or something like that.
</QUOTE>
Actually, you can cause serious damage to your lips, or specifically, the muscle around them. We had a principal trumpet who literally tore his lip muscle in two. Had to have surgery.
Over years of teaching, I had pupils referred to me with overuse problems...rare but true.
As you just said,there is a difference between being THE best and being the best YOU can be, and the latter can be about running hard to stand still.
The second thread to this discussion (I’ll call it the Kobe thread) is about the pursuit of excellence or superiority. I see that, unless actually competing and with a reasonable chance at winning (whatever that is in a certain context) , as a negative and damaging impulse.
There is simply no need for the vast majority of people to be the best or even the most developed version of themselves. Pushing for that is a kind of neurosis for anyone who doesn’t have elite capacity. It leads to some sort of break down be it physical or mental.
Full disclosure, this is not theoretical to me. I pushed my running through pain to the point of breaking a foot. My mind set was wrong for what my body could deliver. I’m much healthier and enjoy training much more not trying to be the best or my best. That’s my study of 1, but observing the internet, I think I see evidence of the damage of unrealistic striving.[/quote]
Interesting. I no longer run, but there was a time I was running 100 miles per week, with speed training on Tuesdays, hill training on Thursdays, and 20-mile runs on Saturdays. It took a mindset that was almost obsessive to be able to do that. I didn't break my foot, but over time I damaged my knees and back. At one point I strained my achilles tendon badly enough that I had to stop running for six months, and that kind of broke the "spell" I had gotten myself in to be able to do all that running.
I suppose you can have the same kind of manic obsession with trombone playing, but I don't think there's any serious danger of breaking a lip. :mrgreen:
Personally, I think wanting to be the best version of yourself is laudable. It's something we should all strive for. The world would be a better place if we did. There's an old maxim for runners. It's a TS Elliot quote, and it goes something like this: "Only those who dare to go too far can ever know how far they can go."
You can damage yourself psychologically by giving-in to obsession, but no one is breaking a foot playing trombone. LOL!
This is something for a different thread, but I'm fascinated by geniuses in their fields, by those who extend the boundaries of human achievement whether that be in athletics, science, art, or whatever. I've found a common trait in a great many of them, and it is this: People who are geniuses in one area, who are the best in the world at what they do, very often are completely dysfunctional in other areas of their lives. It's like they have to sacrifice the rest of their lives to be that good in one aspect of it. Like there's only so much competence in a person, and if they spend it all on one thing -- whether it's astrophysics, the 100 meter dash, or trombone playing -- then they have none left for their family life, economic life, health, and relationships.
But I still believe we should all strive to be the best we can be at whatever we are doing. It's about mindfulness; about being completely in the moment and giving 100% of our attention and effort to whatever we are doing at the time. And if you spend a lot of time practicing the trombone mindfully, I think you're trying to be the best trombonist you can be.
And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?
Or something like that.
</QUOTE>
Actually, you can cause serious damage to your lips, or specifically, the muscle around them. We had a principal trumpet who literally tore his lip muscle in two. Had to have surgery.
Over years of teaching, I had pupils referred to me with overuse problems...rare but true.
As you just said,there is a difference between being THE best and being the best YOU can be, and the latter can be about running hard to stand still.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
How about this for work ethic? I love this documentary because it compares two people: one with talent and what seems to be a limitless drive to do the best justice to the music, and the other with talent but not the drive. I'm not sure it is actually fair to the composer, but who knows.
<YOUTUBE id="5sdKgkit3Do">[media]https://youtu.be/5sdKgkit3Do?si=O5HVKdT9zqIOn_di</YOUTUBE>
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- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="imsevimse" post_id="263551" time="1736365976" user_id="3173">
Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
</QUOTE>
Good questions.
We've already heard from people here on other threads, that they don't practice - they don't feel they need to. Well, good for them. They don't even practice 'cause they like to play. They just play gigs. I've run into a few such players. Glad I never got that cynical (egotistical) concerning the most beautiful thing in the world: music
Easy answer is: Why not and what else is there that I should do?
/Tom[/quote]
Why not? Well...
What if you can already perfectly play anything/everything you're ever required to play?
What if you're already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction?
What if getting better won't get you any additional playing opportunities?
What if being better actually intimidates people and makes it harder to be friends/colleagues with them?
What if people looking for a trombonist pass you up because they assume you're too good for their gig/group?
What if that practice takes time away from family and friends?
There are probably a hundred more possible reasons people can have, I suppose.
</QUOTE>
Good questions.
We've already heard from people here on other threads, that they don't practice - they don't feel they need to. Well, good for them. They don't even practice 'cause they like to play. They just play gigs. I've run into a few such players. Glad I never got that cynical (egotistical) concerning the most beautiful thing in the world: music
- Mr412
- Posts: 207
- Joined: May 20, 2022
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- WilliamLang
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Nov 22, 2019
I answered the question simply and honestly, from my own perspective, without commenting on you.
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="263776" time="1736617789" user_id="8089">
"And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?" (ed. added quotations)
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
Those sounds might not be all that beautiful if you suck and don’t care that you suck. And remember, we modified Kobe’s quote to refer to the best you can be, not, like, the best in the universe.
Also recall that I specifically disapproved of the notion of music as a competitive event.
I think you may have twisted my intent.
</QUOTE>
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="263776" time="1736617789" user_id="8089">
"And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?" (ed. added quotations)
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
Those sounds might not be all that beautiful if you suck and don’t care that you suck. And remember, we modified Kobe’s quote to refer to the best you can be, not, like, the best in the universe.
Also recall that I specifically disapproved of the notion of music as a competitive event.
I think you may have twisted my intent.
</QUOTE>
- GGJazz
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Jul 30, 2022
Hi all .
Personally , I love to practice , as I love to perform , as I love to teach .
I always am trying to improve my playing , in any aspect .
I hope to die with the trombone in my hands...
Anyway , we are all different , as everybody knows.
OP asked specific questions : "why practice ? / why get better? "
Then she provides reasons for her doubts in this regard : " what if you are already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction ? / what if being better wont get you any additional playing opportunities ? " , and more .
So , in my opinion , if one has this kind of thoughts , it may be better just to practice to maintain one's current skill level , without trying to improve any further .
Considering that she is already a very good player , I guess it is ok !
Improving shouldn't be an obligation , but a personal need , and a great satisfaction !
Regards
Giancarlo
Personally , I love to practice , as I love to perform , as I love to teach .
I always am trying to improve my playing , in any aspect .
I hope to die with the trombone in my hands...
Anyway , we are all different , as everybody knows.
OP asked specific questions : "why practice ? / why get better? "
Then she provides reasons for her doubts in this regard : " what if you are already the best player in a hundred miles in any direction ? / what if being better wont get you any additional playing opportunities ? " , and more .
So , in my opinion , if one has this kind of thoughts , it may be better just to practice to maintain one's current skill level , without trying to improve any further .
Considering that she is already a very good player , I guess it is ok !
Improving shouldn't be an obligation , but a personal need , and a great satisfaction !
Regards
Giancarlo
- Bach5G
- Posts: 2874
- Joined: Apr 07, 2018
I’m not going to spend any more time on TBD’s existential issues as I have to go practice.
- musicofnote
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Jun 03, 2022
[quote="tbdana"]<QUOTE author="WilliamLang" post_id="263776" time="1736617789" user_id="8089">
"And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?" (ed. added quotations)
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
Those sounds might not be all that beautiful if you suck and don’t care that you suck. And remember, we modified Kobe’s quote to refer to the best you can be, not, like, the best in the universe.
Also recall that I specifically disapproved of the notion of music as a competitive event.
I think you may have twisted my intent.
</QUOTE>
I remember a discussion I had with the director of the music school who hired me 3/4 of a life ago. He LOVED the idea of the American public education music systems, where the basic idea was NOT to produce the brightest and bestest players, but rather to expose all children to the beauty of music and through that exposure, allow those with innate abilities and drive (what some now call "talent") the opportunity to start making and discover the magic of music. Why why he so enamoured with this idea? Because he grew up in a music education system, that started on the second day of instruction of weeding out those who "couldn't keep up" out and supplying the best for the best. His idea was, by allowing both the best and the not-so-best to make music side by side, we created our successors in the profession, but also "created" the paying public for our concerts, recordings and publications. And many of the not-the-best players continue to play and keep their love e for music alive, which they then pay to feed at the box office and cash register. Since my second week at the conservatory, I became aware of my basic mediocrity, which did not diminish my love for music, nor did it diminish my desire to, 100th millimetre at a time strive to increase my abilities. If some think I suck more than I do, I don't give a rat's ass. If others think I play well (such as many of my employers, colleagues and audiences) I find that nice. But I still play for me and my ears and am aware, that I sound different to other ears than to my own. But as far as i'm concerned, it's my ears that count. So I play and entertain MY ears. And I long since stopped playing unmusical exercises and only play music during the time I invest, that others are free to label "practice".
"And to circle back to the Kobe ethic, when doing all that practice, if you're not trying to be the best (you can be), what the hell are you doing?" (ed. added quotations)
Trying to make beautiful sounds for people, not concerning myself with ideas about being the best.[/quote]
Those sounds might not be all that beautiful if you suck and don’t care that you suck. And remember, we modified Kobe’s quote to refer to the best you can be, not, like, the best in the universe.
Also recall that I specifically disapproved of the notion of music as a competitive event.
I think you may have twisted my intent.
</QUOTE>
I remember a discussion I had with the director of the music school who hired me 3/4 of a life ago. He LOVED the idea of the American public education music systems, where the basic idea was NOT to produce the brightest and bestest players, but rather to expose all children to the beauty of music and through that exposure, allow those with innate abilities and drive (what some now call "talent") the opportunity to start making and discover the magic of music. Why why he so enamoured with this idea? Because he grew up in a music education system, that started on the second day of instruction of weeding out those who "couldn't keep up" out and supplying the best for the best. His idea was, by allowing both the best and the not-so-best to make music side by side, we created our successors in the profession, but also "created" the paying public for our concerts, recordings and publications. And many of the not-the-best players continue to play and keep their love e for music alive, which they then pay to feed at the box office and cash register. Since my second week at the conservatory, I became aware of my basic mediocrity, which did not diminish my love for music, nor did it diminish my desire to, 100th millimetre at a time strive to increase my abilities. If some think I suck more than I do, I don't give a rat's ass. If others think I play well (such as many of my employers, colleagues and audiences) I find that nice. But I still play for me and my ears and am aware, that I sound different to other ears than to my own. But as far as i'm concerned, it's my ears that count. So I play and entertain MY ears. And I long since stopped playing unmusical exercises and only play music during the time I invest, that others are free to label "practice".
- claf
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Oct 22, 2018
I hate to practice, but I have to do it to get better (I'm far from playing half as good as many people here).
I found that the best thing for me was practicing 10 minutes per day each day: I won't get bored and I see some improvements.
I also like "rush periods" where I have just a few days to learn a new repertoire, that's the only time I enjoy practicing (I practice the music I have to play and some exercises I find relevant to this repertoire).
But I also would like to play as good as most people here...
I found that the best thing for me was practicing 10 minutes per day each day: I won't get bored and I see some improvements.
I also like "rush periods" where I have just a few days to learn a new repertoire, that's the only time I enjoy practicing (I practice the music I have to play and some exercises I find relevant to this repertoire).
But I also would like to play as good as most people here...
- LeTromboniste
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Apr 11, 2018
[quote="GabrielRice"]I don't love practicing enough to do it for its own sake. I'm sure that I'll put the trombone away completely when I retire.
I practice because I love to play with my colleagues, and I want to stay good enough to contribute to every situation and be a musician they can count on.
I practice because I have a responsibility to my students to be able to demonstrate what I'm trying to teach them.
I practice because I love the in-the-moment rush of performing, and I need the facility that comes with consistent practice to be able to focus on the music-making rather than the technique.[/quote]
This!
I practice because I love to play with my colleagues, and I want to stay good enough to contribute to every situation and be a musician they can count on.
I practice because I have a responsibility to my students to be able to demonstrate what I'm trying to teach them.
I practice because I love the in-the-moment rush of performing, and I need the facility that comes with consistent practice to be able to focus on the music-making rather than the technique.[/quote]
This!
- JTeagarden
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 24, 2025
Because music is about the rare moments when things align, and something magical and transcendent happens, a timeless beautiful thing.
Practicing makes those moments more likely.
It's not about becoming perfect, it's about being ready for those rare moments.
I have always been happiest when I have things in my life that are meaningful and give me purpose, and some of those things require a kind of "table stakes" to be able to enjoy. I have a good ear, and have been exposed to many different styles and performers over my life, I can discern the difference between music that is beautifully played, and music which is not, so the second I start detracting from that beauty, I hope I have the decency to stop playing.
For now, music gives me a decent "bang for my buck," in terms of return on my practicing investment, but the second it stops, the horn goes back in the case.
Practicing makes those moments more likely.
It's not about becoming perfect, it's about being ready for those rare moments.
I have always been happiest when I have things in my life that are meaningful and give me purpose, and some of those things require a kind of "table stakes" to be able to enjoy. I have a good ear, and have been exposed to many different styles and performers over my life, I can discern the difference between music that is beautifully played, and music which is not, so the second I start detracting from that beauty, I hope I have the decency to stop playing.
For now, music gives me a decent "bang for my buck," in terms of return on my practicing investment, but the second it stops, the horn goes back in the case.
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 6479
- Joined: Aug 17, 2018
[quote="JTeagarden"]Because music is about the rare moments when things align, and something magical and transcendent happens, a timeless beautiful thing.[/quote]
Listen to the master -- thank you Jack Teagarden!!
Listen to the master -- thank you Jack Teagarden!!
- slidesix
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Jan 03, 2025
For me if I didn't practice regularly I doubt I would stay the best player within one hundred miles. So that would be enough to motivate me. For me, as long as I have enough range and endurance, that usually lets me do what I need to in rehearsals and performances. So that was historically what I practice. I felt as a former principal that's what I needed to lead.
Also for me, within one hundred miles includes both the Cleveland Institute of Music and The Cleveland Orchestra--so I wish!
I dunno. My mom always reminded me it was not possible for mean to learn everything (WRT to science). So I assume this applies to playing and skill as well.
As to what to practice? I typically let my goals decide that. I ask myself, what do I want to accomplish? Then I practice to do that and design my practices around that. So I let my thoughts and goals guide me. If I don't have any goals, then I ask myself, "self, what do I want to do?" And Iet my feelings guide me. Usually that is enough and I can then find the motivation.
Good discussion here and good topic. Thanks sharing
Also for me, within one hundred miles includes both the Cleveland Institute of Music and The Cleveland Orchestra--so I wish!
I dunno. My mom always reminded me it was not possible for mean to learn everything (WRT to science). So I assume this applies to playing and skill as well.
As to what to practice? I typically let my goals decide that. I ask myself, what do I want to accomplish? Then I practice to do that and design my practices around that. So I let my thoughts and goals guide me. If I don't have any goals, then I ask myself, "self, what do I want to do?" And Iet my feelings guide me. Usually that is enough and I can then find the motivation.
Good discussion here and good topic. Thanks sharing