.562 Crook Needed
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
So, Bach 36/42B F attachment tuning slide crooks are about ~1.5” center to center bends. I’m looking for a crook that is ~1.375” center to center… anybody know any part that matches this? Any baritone or marching horn crooks that match these dimensions?
Cheers,
Andy
Cheers,
Andy
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
I don't have one to try or measure but maybe the Getzen 747 if the part is available?
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Yes… but does anybody have one to note what the center to center dimension is?
Cheers,
Andy
Cheers,
Andy
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Have you tried the 180 degree crooks from a traditional wrap Conn 88H. Unlike the Bach 36B/42B design (both bends are identical) the Conn 88H crooks are two different sizes. The 180 degree crook that is directly beside the gooseneck is a little smaller in width than the one at the back of the trombone. I don’t have one with me right now to measure but I imagine that one of them (probably the smaller one) might be close to the dimension you are seeking.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
That’s a good thing to note. Have to remember if anybody close has an 88H for me to check.
Thanks for the suggestion,
Andy
Thanks for the suggestion,
Andy
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
The Yamaha that is essentially an 88 copy or a Blessing 88 would almost certainly have the same or really similar dimension crook too.
- Crazy4Tbone86
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Jan 14, 2020
Andy,
Measuring "center to center" is a strange way to measure a crook because you must estimate it when using to calipers. Throw in a little wiggle with your hands and things can easily shift by .050 to .100 inch.
I am assuming "center to center" means center of the bore to center of the bore. I cannot get an exact measurement on my Conn 88H traditional wrap because it is fully assembled and soldered. However, I think the small 180 degree crook (the one that is installed up against the gooseneck) on that model is close to what you are looking for.
Measuring "center to center" is a strange way to measure a crook because you must estimate it when using to calipers. Throw in a little wiggle with your hands and things can easily shift by .050 to .100 inch.
I am assuming "center to center" means center of the bore to center of the bore. I cannot get an exact measurement on my Conn 88H traditional wrap because it is fully assembled and soldered. However, I think the small 180 degree crook (the one that is installed up against the gooseneck) on that model is close to what you are looking for.
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
[quote="Crazy4Tbone86"]Measuring "center to center" is a strange way to measure a crook because you must estimate it when using to calipers. Throw in a little wiggle with your hands and things can easily shift by .050 to .100 inch.[/quote]
I've been waiting for someone to point this out -- while also being confused about exactly what the goal is here. If you start with a measurement (let's assume that it's really accurate, although in this case I'm a bit skeptical) and want to produce an exact replacement that really works, it doesn't seem to me that looking for a part from another instrument that may be "close" is going to get you there -- at least in the case of a tuning slide.
If the part you get isn't made specifically for the horn, then some additional adjustment (including possibly the movement of some braces, maybe rotation of some of the other joints, etc.) may be necessary in order to get things truly in line, parallel, etc. If you can't find the exact (manufactured) replacement, then perhaps the best thing to do is have a competent fabricator (like M/K?) make the part for you. Otherwise you're just asking for a bunch of frustration and heartache.
On the other hand, I still don't have a clue as to the details of the situation, or the goal.
I've been waiting for someone to point this out -- while also being confused about exactly what the goal is here. If you start with a measurement (let's assume that it's really accurate, although in this case I'm a bit skeptical) and want to produce an exact replacement that really works, it doesn't seem to me that looking for a part from another instrument that may be "close" is going to get you there -- at least in the case of a tuning slide.
If the part you get isn't made specifically for the horn, then some additional adjustment (including possibly the movement of some braces, maybe rotation of some of the other joints, etc.) may be necessary in order to get things truly in line, parallel, etc. If you can't find the exact (manufactured) replacement, then perhaps the best thing to do is have a competent fabricator (like M/K?) make the part for you. Otherwise you're just asking for a bunch of frustration and heartache.
On the other hand, I still don't have a clue as to the details of the situation, or the goal.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
Thanks. It’s certainly the way an engineer would think about it… but for an 1/8”, holding a ruler next to it is close enough for what I’m looking for.
And yes, I am trying to make a rotary second valve here, the loop is small (total like ~6.5” of length), so I’m trying to avoid adding extra bends. There is nothing made “for this horn”, because this will be a unique build of mine. Crooks and ports are malleable, this doesn’t need to be rocket science. And it isn’t going to be a 1st or 3rd slide that needs a lot of agility.
Now to find a scrap 88H!
Andy
And yes, I am trying to make a rotary second valve here, the loop is small (total like ~6.5” of length), so I’m trying to avoid adding extra bends. There is nothing made “for this horn”, because this will be a unique build of mine. Crooks and ports are malleable, this doesn’t need to be rocket science. And it isn’t going to be a 1st or 3rd slide that needs a lot of agility.
Now to find a scrap 88H!
Andy
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Well, I'm all for that sort of experimentation and have done some of it myself -- though when I made the experimental G slide for my bass, I got the replacement crook that I knew would fit because, for a "tuning slide", you want to use it to achieve tuning without a lot of Sturm und Drang.
In a similar vein, for years I've been resisting improving the main tuning slide on my 1924 Buescher Eb tuba. It's a real pain to use because the legs aren't parallel on it. I don't know if it came this way from the factory (possible) or got some little "bump" at some point that slightly bent a brace. But fixing it would require unsoldering four braces, unsoldering and slightly rotating one of the outer slide tubes and a crook, and then resoldering all of that once it's put into alignment. I've just never been sufficiently motivated to do all of that for the minor gain that would result for what has never been the world's greatest tuba. :roll:
I'm not entirely sure what "crooks and ports are malleable" means, unless it's in the same context of my tuba tuning slide and means "If you apply enough force, you can bend them (to some degree) or move them -- and live with it." Otherwise malleability means having the equipment and materials to "malleableize" them -- and that's a more complicated path to follow. If you think you can bend a crook (without crimping/denting it) and have the ends remain sufficiently parallel for what you need, or will have enough slop in the joint so that when you solder it the tubes can be made parallel in both relevant planes, then you may be in for quite an adventure. Been there; tried that. :) But it's worth the experiment if the cost is fairly low.
In a similar vein, for years I've been resisting improving the main tuning slide on my 1924 Buescher Eb tuba. It's a real pain to use because the legs aren't parallel on it. I don't know if it came this way from the factory (possible) or got some little "bump" at some point that slightly bent a brace. But fixing it would require unsoldering four braces, unsoldering and slightly rotating one of the outer slide tubes and a crook, and then resoldering all of that once it's put into alignment. I've just never been sufficiently motivated to do all of that for the minor gain that would result for what has never been the world's greatest tuba. :roll:
I'm not entirely sure what "crooks and ports are malleable" means, unless it's in the same context of my tuba tuning slide and means "If you apply enough force, you can bend them (to some degree) or move them -- and live with it." Otherwise malleability means having the equipment and materials to "malleableize" them -- and that's a more complicated path to follow. If you think you can bend a crook (without crimping/denting it) and have the ends remain sufficiently parallel for what you need, or will have enough slop in the joint so that when you solder it the tubes can be made parallel in both relevant planes, then you may be in for quite an adventure. Been there; tried that. :) But it's worth the experiment if the cost is fairly low.
- elmsandr
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Mar 23, 2018
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Meaning for even a small crook like this, adjustments can be made for a few tens of thousandths of an inch. But you can’t spring a slide this small an 1/8”. Hence I’m looking for a crook to align to the port spacing of the valve at hand. If I can’t find something, I’ll likely add an S bend to one leg… but with 3” of the 6.5” total loop length taken up by a 42B crook and ferrules… not a lot of room! I’m not going to spend the money to tool ANYTHING as I already have too much into this experiment.
(For amusement, the pictured 42B tuning slide is leftover parts from when I had a G attachment made out of some of these parts.)
Cheers,
Andy
Meaning for even a small crook like this, adjustments can be made for a few tens of thousandths of an inch. But you can’t spring a slide this small an 1/8”. Hence I’m looking for a crook to align to the port spacing of the valve at hand. If I can’t find something, I’ll likely add an S bend to one leg… but with 3” of the 6.5” total loop length taken up by a 42B crook and ferrules… not a lot of room! I’m not going to spend the money to tool ANYTHING as I already have too much into this experiment.
(For amusement, the pictured 42B tuning slide is leftover parts from when I had a G attachment made out of some of these parts.)
Cheers,
Andy
- ghmerrill
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: Apr 02, 2018
Ah! A picture is worth ... well, you know. :lol:
So it appears that this is the sort of "tuning slide" that a euphonium 2nd valve slide is -- which is to say that you don't actually use it for tuning. It goes in and stays in, eh? (Except maybe for using it as an inspection port or cleaning -- so you don't want to solder the whole thing up.
In that case, then, yes, I'd think that you could futz around with those ferrules, some sandpaper, the "slide" stubs, and maybe some excessive solder in the joints, and end up with something that would work. So something like the crook on the 1st valve of my 1965 Amati Oval euph might work. Have you tried posting on Tubnet to see if any of the techs there (like Bloke or Dan Schultz) might have something in their parts collections? Dan's been very helpful to me in the past concerning odd ideas I've had, and introducing me to skills of various sorts, parts I'd need, where to get them, etc. And I think Bloke probably has piles of parts.
So it appears that this is the sort of "tuning slide" that a euphonium 2nd valve slide is -- which is to say that you don't actually use it for tuning. It goes in and stays in, eh? (Except maybe for using it as an inspection port or cleaning -- so you don't want to solder the whole thing up.
In that case, then, yes, I'd think that you could futz around with those ferrules, some sandpaper, the "slide" stubs, and maybe some excessive solder in the joints, and end up with something that would work. So something like the crook on the 1st valve of my 1965 Amati Oval euph might work. Have you tried posting on Tubnet to see if any of the techs there (like Bloke or Dan Schultz) might have something in their parts collections? Dan's been very helpful to me in the past concerning odd ideas I've had, and introducing me to skills of various sorts, parts I'd need, where to get them, etc. And I think Bloke probably has piles of parts.
- Matt_K
- Posts: 4809
- Joined: Mar 21, 2018
This might sound weird, but if an 88 crook doesn't work out, maybe you could try a dual radius slide crook? Those typically list the ID of the bore... maybe a Bach 36 crook? Thinking it has a sharper angle and you could cut both ends to give you the right distance, with a ferrule in the middle.